Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Strong-Arm]

I feel like Roy isnt bottom, solid mid in my eyes. Tho I think a few buffs would help him go a long way. Namely readjusting back throw so it can link into back air better at high % or heck make it guareented. Maybe buff upthrow to kill earlier and readjust his Upb to have armor on start up in the air.

 

[Asdioh]

What do you guys think about this random post where I talk about a few characters (because it would take too long to talk about every single one) and their (apparent) design philosophies, and the failures/successes therein? If they get an angry Grimer, they're in a bad spot, meaning they're generally too weak or too strong, or their design is flawed. If they get a happy Kirby, it means they are basically perfect! If the angry Grimers were all turned into happy Kirbys, this game would be a perfect beauty !


Intended Strengths: Fast, close range ninja with combo heavy moves. And fast. Fast.
Intended Weaknesses: Low damage output per move/in general, lowish KO power, susceptible to combos. (Needs to get close?)
Design Successes: Successfully a fast, close range ninja that combos very well.
Design Failures: Needles are the best projectile in the game, completely invalidating the "close range" necessity of her character. KOs are often safer/earlier than most other characters, thanks to Dthrow in particular. Combos are less effective on Sheik than they could be, thanks to Bouncing Fish being a risk-free combo breaker. Recovery far outclasses the vast majority of the cast, when it doesn't seem like that was the intent.
Verdict: strengths >>> weaknesses



Intended Strengths: Mobile, quick midrange fighter with pretty good CQC and strong combo ability? Not sure exactly what their design philosophy for ZSS is.
Intended Weaknesses: Risky Grab, no long range pressure... uhhh.. recovery, maybe?
Design Successes: Definitely mobile, definitely good at midrange (zair, paralyzer, mobility+safe aerials, SideB) good up close, combos are very strong. Grab is an actual risk.
Design Failures: Frame 1 Jab, so even if you close the distance (assuming she's designed to be more of a midrange fighter than a CQC one) she beats you. One of the best OoS UpBs in the game? Invincibility on Flip Jump? Recovery is nearly impossible to stop? Frequently KOs sooner than heavyweight/fatties do, while having little risk in these KO moves. Again, not sure what the heck her design is supposed to be, but there's some messy stuff in here.
Verdict: strengths >>> weaknesses (and her design confuses me, maybe somebody can clarify what she's intended to do)



Intended Strengths: Specializes in disjoints, projectiles, anti-camp (reflector and absorb) and rewarding grab.
Intended Weaknesses: Exploitable recovery, mediocre CQC, difficulty landing grabs.
Design Successes: Recovery is obviously taken advantage of, CQC is nothing amazing, grabs require effort to obtain. Disjoints can be hard to beat when used correctly, PK Thunder is easy to use as a projectile with decent reward, PK Fire is risky to use but has high reward, grab combos/KOs are very effective.
Design Failures: People cry when Backthrow kills them.
Verdict: people sometimes complain about him, but he's well designed imo!



Intended Strengths: Fast, close range fox with combos and the ability to force approaches (lasers, reflector). Also, fast. And combos.
Intended Weaknesses: Fallspeed makes him combo food, light weight means he won't live too long, recovery is highly vulnerable, Grab has mediocre reward, no disjoints.
Design Successes: Pretty much everything.
Design Failures: Pretty much nothing.
Verdict: another well designed character, basically in a perfect spot




Intended Strengths: Fast. Combos. Great CQC. Manly. Fast grab with good reward.
Intended Weaknesses: No projectiles or swords, so must get in close. Combo food. Weak recovery.
Design Successes: As with Fox, basically everything!
Design Failures: Basically nothing!
Verdict: I remember people complaining about Falcon, but I think every character (except the excessively weak ones) has the tools to deal with him.



Intended Strengths: aerial mobility, pressuring aerials, threat of Rest being a trump card, being pink, powerful edgeguarding.
Intended Weaknesses: extreme light weight, underwhelming ground game, forced to fight up close.
Design Successes: airspeed and quick aerials can lead to combos, Rest is fairly strong (without being excessive like in Melee) when used properly, ground game is appropriately underwhelming, while still having decent options in Dash Attack and highly damaging pummel/throws, edgeguarding game is quite strong.
Design Failures: light weight kills her ridiculously early, moreso than seems intended, especially because of Rage. Rest is randomly riskier by topscreen KOs being potentially instant, and Rest seems like an underwhelming trump card when the likes of True Shoryuken/Boost Kick/Limit Break/etc exist. Weak ground game and lack of safe ways to pressure shields makes shielding an exceptionally strong option against her.
Verdict: she's overall too weak, but buffing her could make her frustrating to play against. I know I already hate playing against Jigglypuff as-is.



Intended Strengths: strong CQC, grappling, and juggling ability, with a good recovery and edgeguarding power. Command Grab that can makes him have very different potential depending on the matchup. Short crouch I guess could be counted as an intended strength?
Intended Weaknesses: light weight, low mobility, no disjoints or projectiles, so he's forced to get in close.
Design Successes: combos are overall good, grab reward is good, edgeguarding is occasionally good.
Design Failures: Neutral is very weak, due to low speed and predictable movement options. Low speed makes combos and juggling difficult to maintain momentum, as most characters can jump away from combos and reset to neutral. Aerials have very short range with no disjoints, yet have very unimpressive frame data. Certain combos are a state of extremes: excessively good on fastfallers, while being underwhelming on most other characters. Recovery is actually among the bottom tier of the game, again due to slow speed.
Verdict: his weaknesses pile on top of each other to outweigh his strengths. For a CQC fighter, his Jab is one of the shortest in the game, yet it's Frame 3, which is slower than characters that have far better mobility and ranged options than him. His aerials are good in some ways, yet their frame data is extremely underwhelming, considering their hitboxes and his mobility.


Some more examples that I don't have time to elaborate on, I've already spent too much time making this pointless post!


s:

s: (probably most of the super fatties you guys have been talking about as well)

 

[Charoite]

It kills me really when characters like Zangief, T hawk, Hugo, daimon and Pokentmin (the grappler dude in guilty gear) are well made with consistent frame data across the cast and actually has threatening moves with the right range relative to their size and ours are based on crap and are forced to be at a disadvantage consistently in neutral when they could be so much more.

This is blatantly wrong Tager(blazblue) was trash to low tier in most games, same with T hawk, hell potemkin was at the bottom of the tier list in Xrd, and he was top in GGAC because of the stupid **** he can do, along with the other top tier(testament), my point is grapplers in fighting games most of the time sucks the same that in smash 4 , only in Kof and skullgirls is when they have their time to shine.

 

[FlynnCL]

We have guys like Cassius who are doing the same thing with some pretty amazing results, too:

You've gotta love Bowser's pivot grab.

 

[S_B]

my point is grapplers in fighting games most of the time sucks the same that in smash 4 , only in Kof and skullgirls is when they have their time to shine.

There's really no reason they can't in SSB4. Bowser and DK are both in decent places right now, even without any further buffs.

Just toning down the most oppressive characters will make them a great deal more viable, same with most of the heavies.

You've gotta love Bowser's pivot grab.

Yup, Numbers Baired at the WRONG time and extended his hurtbox into it, heh.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

More range than Link's standing grab. Why couldn't they just match the pivot grabs to their animation?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

This is blatantly wrong Tager(blazblue) was trash to low tier in most games, same with T hawk, hell potemkin was at the bottom of the tier list in Xrd, and he was top in GGAC because of the stupid **** he can do, along with the other top tier(testament), my point is grapplers in fighting games most of the time sucks the same that in smash 4 , only in Kof and skullgirls is when they have their time to shine.

O.T Hawk was super viable in Super turbo

Zangief in SF4 series (snake eyez)

Potemkin wasn't good in like, one version of the game and you just said he was a monster in GGAC, so case is rested

Haggar in UMvC3

Daimon in KOF (though you already stated this)

Waldstein UNIEL (lol, totally lost his name)

Honestly, every big character kinda struggled (actually, really struggle) against fireball users. But, one thing is, they had the scariest up close pressure in the game, so it was kinda like a disgusting even MU; you keep them out and they'll never get to you, you make a mistake and you lose.

 

[Pazx]

I dunno, Foxes have been beating Diddies pretty soundly for some time now (Xzax and NAKAT > MVD, SH > Nietono, various mid-level Foxes > Angel Cortes) and I'm hard-pressed to think of results going consistently in the other direction.

Grand finals in Michigan when Ally isn't around often comes down to Zinoto vs Ksev and I can't really remember Ksev ever taking a set, however you could argue that Zinoto is a much better player (beating Ally several times). I personally think Diddy might still struggle with Fox, but also Mario, and my opinion on that matchup is far more controversial when we have players like Zinoto taking sets from Ally. Even JJRockets put up a fight against him recently.

Diddy's disadvantage against Fox is VERY slight and I doubt his matchup against Sonic is much worse than that. Luigi is probably a more difficult matchups for Diddy than either of them.

I disagree, but I think most Diddies would agree with you. IMO Diddy's worst (not necessarily losing, as the last 3 are pretty even) matchups look something like this:
> /// > //

 

[meleebrawler]

More range than Link's standing grab. Why couldn't they just match the pivot grabs to their animation?

Because it's apparently a tradition for every Smash game since Melee to have one character with a disproportionately long non-tether grab. in Melee, in Brawl and now .

Though it's also the fact pivot grabs are supposed to be longer always.

 

[S_B]

More range than Link's standing grab. Why couldn't they just match the pivot grabs to their animation?

They mostly do. If you touch even the tip of Bowser's extended claw when he pivot grabs, you'll get caught.

The grab comes out before the animation happens, though, but the range is actually accurate when you see the length of the claw.

Now, as to WHY Bowser channels Dhalsim for that one move is anyone's guess...

Honestly, every big character kinda struggled (actually, really struggle) against fireball users. But, one thing is, they had the scariest up close pressure in the game, so it was kinda like a disgusting even MU; you keep them out and they'll never get to you, you make a mistake and you lose.

That pretty much stays true in SSB4's Bowser and DK (not ONE mistake, but 2-3 mistakes and they'll have you), unless you're playing Sheik or ZSS.

Now we just need to buff some of the other heavies in viability and we'll hopefully see more tops 8s full of big bodies.

 

[Big-Cat]

You've gotta love Bowser's pivot grab.

Zangief's Light SPD.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

DK has the same range on his.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

They mostly do. If you touch even the tip of Bowser's extended claw when he pivot grabs, you'll get caught.

The grab comes out before the animation happens, though, but the range is actually accurate when you see the length of the claw.

Now, as to WHY Bowser channels Dhalsim for that one move is anyone's guess...



That pretty much stays true in SSB4's Bowser and DK (not ONE mistake, but 2-3 mistakes and they'll have you), unless you're playing Sheik or ZSS.

Now we just need to buff some of the other heavies in viability and we'll hopefully see more tops 8s full of big bodies.

The difference is big characters actually had done disgusting normals and could actually play the footsie game well. The fatties in this game don't really have that accolade

 

[Blobface]

Someone mentioned Wizkick a little bit back, and I've wanted to rant about this for a while so...

I hate this move.

It first hits on frame 16. Decent, certainly very usable. The hitbox is nice and big and lasts for a whopping 20 frames from 16 to 35. Endlag is absolutely atrocious though; 42 frames! It's more of a commitment than Ganon's F-smash. All these traits point to a move that is used to dissuade someone from doing something, but that can't be thrown out willy nilly lest you eat a huge punish. Naturally, such a move should hit like a Aircraft Carrier being carried by Locomotives.

So, what kind of devastating damage does Wizkick do?

12. Percent. And that's the sweetspot that you won't be hitting very often. The sourspot does an even more pathetic 10 percent. Those values might be average for other characters, but for Ganon, they're horrid. The knockback is just as bad. It kills later than Ganon's jab, and it's not even safe on hit at early percents. Aerial Wizkick is an improvement. It does decent damage and kills at average Ganon percent from the ground and really early in the air. But really, considering that there's 42 frames (again) of landing lag on top of the time it takes to reach the ground, this is still not as strong as it should be. Rather than forcibly preventing someone from doing something, Ganon politely asks "excuse me, and I'm sorry if I'm being rude, but I'd really prefer if you didn't do that".

This wouldn't really be a problem if these moves were useless. But both are moves that Ganon needs to rely on in so many situations. Grounded Wizkick is his only good answer to rolls, and is one of his few answers to opponents jumping. Aerial Wizkick is one of a few ways Ganon can make people hesitate to juggle him. The roll thing is by far the worst though. Ganon's options against a shield or spotdodging opponent are excellent contrary to what some might think, but his options against rolls are very limited.

Bottom line, these moves need to paralyze people with fear. Considering how much he has to commit to them, There's no real reason these things shouldn't just do ridiculous damage and knockback, especially considering their primary purpose is to scare people away from certain actions. Not to get too caught up in numbers, but 17/18% sour/sweetspot for both grounded and aerial along with BKB increases to make both always safe on hit would be respectable given their current KGB values and Rage. And if this has to do with FFA's, the attack already loses travel speed on each hit, it wouldn't be difficult to make it do less damage too.

Anyway now that I'm done whining about how "awful" Ganon is, do you guys think that Clouds early dominance shows that edgeguarding games were as a whole undeveloped?

 

[Big-Cat]

The difference is big characters actually had done disgusting normals and could actually play the footsie game well. The fatties in this game don't really have that accolade

What the **** are you talking about?

 

[Jams.]

More range than Link's standing grab. Why couldn't they just match the pivot grabs to their animation?

It feels like the designers were scaling back the very lenient Brawl hitboxes, then had a staff party and went to the bar when it came time to do pivot grabs.

 

[Mario766]

DK has the same range on his.

Ike's is the same way

Just not as absurd.

 

[san.]

Perhaps pivot grab boxes don't move with the slide?

 

[Mario766]

Looking at the gif


That's VERY likely.

Pivot grab boxes in general are massive. They have dash grab length grabs, and vary on height based on character. The character is sliding backwards during the animation, but you grab them and they randomly teleport.

Either they don't move, or it extends WITH the character, while keeping the grab box with the character. We'd need a debug mode to see, but it's likely the grab box doesn't move.

 

[Nabbitnator]

I don't understand the whole prospect of 'let's nerf ZSS/Sheik so that they do not invalidate super heavyweights'. Ok, you nerf them. What happens? They're still going to have pretty bad MUs against some specific archetypes in the cast, such as zoners like Villager or combo based fighters like Pikachu or Ryu. Simply nerfing some of the most prevalent characters in the metagame isn't enough to boost heavies -- their inherent weaknesses still need to be addressed in order to hold more their own more effectively.

Even if they tried to nerf zss/sheik to help super heavy weights. Its still likely that they will still invalidate them or be bad match ups just by design. I mean we would have to completely destroy each character for that to happen.

 

[L9999]

They would still need to get around .

 

[Wintropy]

- Wizkick rant -

Playing Ganondorf in PM has made me appreciate just how potent an option it is in that game and how undertuned it is in this. PM Wizkick has much the same effect as it does in other games, but the fact that it's faster (I think? Don't know the exact frame data) and can kill makes it a much scarier read / punish option. It's still a risky investment, since you're gonna get punished in return if you whiff or hit shield, but now you've got a reliable way to catch rolls and potentially convert that read into a stock.

I think Ganondorf's biggest problem in Smash 4 is that he doesn't have much options in neutral, and the ones he does have are tethered to a character with cripplingly underwhelming mobility. He's essentially carried by hard reads. Wizkick seems to be a response to that on paper, but in effect...well, your disdain isn't unwarranted.

Anyway now that I'm done whining about how "awful" Ganon is, do you guys think that Clouds early dominance shows that edgeguarding games were as a whole undeveloped?

Yes, definitely. Most characters have some kind of option for going deep and making it back to the stage, Cloud should be struggling to get back. I think edgeguarding is going to be something people take more seriously from now on, especially since there's this mentality among certain people that Cloud may be a dominant threat in the meta and that he's way overtuned on-stage. If that's the case, shouldn't we be trying to optimise ways to challenge him in the one state of play where he's most noticeably vulnerable?

EDIT: Typo.

 

[Nobie]

I can't remember who it was, but I once saw a Ganondorf on stream do a ground Wizard's Foot off-stage to kill someone trying to recover.

 

[Rizen]

I can't remember who it was, but I once saw a Ganondorf on stream do a ground Wizard's Foot off-stage to kill someone trying to recover.

You should see wizkick>Uair

IMO Ganon's wizkick isn't bad, relative to Ganon. It has a HUGE area of attack that's great for punishing dodges, SHs and offstage stuff like ^you said.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Perhaps pivot grab boxes don't move with the slide?

That's not the case; you can prevent the slide with things like Dash Attack Cancel Pivot Grab and doing it at the edge. You'll have the same range.

 

[LancerStaff]

I think the pivot grab thing is intentional because some characters slide around a bunch and a lot of them would be awful hard to even land if they were accurate...

Then the problems come in when characters with already big range don't slide much, especially if you time it right or do a DAC pivot grab (which I just heard of and now need to lab out).

 

[Y2Kay]

Funny thing about Earth's win over Ranai last month! It turns out he had proposed to his girlfriend Fuwa, long time doubles partner and friend, right before that match. Literally the most adorable Smash love story I have ever heard.

 

[Nobie]

By the way, would anyone like to make a video called "EVERYTHING WRONG WITH SHEIK?" I'm getting a little tired of all of these videos coming out showing the CRIPPLING FLAWS of X or Y character.

 

[Y2Kay]

By the way, would anyone like to make a video called "EVERYTHING WRONG WITH SHEIK?" I'm getting a little tired of all of these videos coming out showing the CRIPPLING FLAWS of X or Y character.

I mean we could, but that video would be really short.

 

[Rizen]

By the way, would anyone like to make a video called "EVERYTHING WRONG WITH SHEIK?" I'm getting a little tired of all of these videos coming out showing the CRIPPLING FLAWS of X or Y character.

I mean we could, but that video would be really short.

We'll need to get the Cinema Sins guy for that video.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

The curse will soon be broken.

This year shall be my year as well.

 

[adom4]

This year shall be my year as well.

And hopefully mine as well.

 

[outfoxd]

Late but wanna weigh in on the grappler argument but it seems like they work a lot better in 3d fighters where high/low and block mixups and full movement are more universal. Also hybrid grapplers.

Dragunov, king, wolf hawkfield, marduk, Wl Blaze. I dunno if they're top or high tier but they don't feel always screwed by design. Clear footsie tools and if they put their hands on you you will utterly regret it.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Diddy's disadvantage against Fox is VERY slight and I doubt his matchup against Sonic is much worse than that. Luigi is probably a more difficult matchups for Diddy than either of them.

What disadvantage?

Fox isn't that bad for us, neither is Sonic. Sheik is worse than both, and Villager is only a problem if he catches your Banana. Learn to play without them for this matchup, and you're good. Villager is still annoying however, Fox is much more straight to the point and very fast paced. We also kill him quite early, which is always nice.

 

[Radical Larry]

Blobface There is such a thing as Wizard's Foot killing at 50% to 80% damage with its non-meteor hitbox.

You've gotta love Bowser's pivot grab.

Oh hey Marth.

 

[Teshie U]

I think the pivot grab thing is intentional because some characters slide around a bunch and a lot of them would be awful hard to even land if they were accurate...

Then the problems come in when characters with already big range don't slide much, especially if you time it right or do a DAC pivot grab (which I just heard of and now need to lab out).

Yea, pivot grabs are meant to punish people chasing you. There is even a tip about how they more range than it seems. Obviously Bowser's makes pretty much no sense though... The WFT bairing into it probably showed the worst case scenario, but it is a pretty massive grab regardless.

most pivot grabs arent designed to be a safe retreating attack, just simply catch someone moving into the area you just ran from, some characters are lucky though. with bowsers newly obnoxious upthrow, this pivot grab feels op though

 

[S_B]

Even if they tried to nerf zss/sheik to help super heavy weights. Its still likely that they will still invalidate them or be bad match ups just by design. I mean we would have to completely destroy each character for that to happen.

No, they wouldn't.

Sheik and ZSS are pretty cut and dry examples of overtuned characters. Their frame data is amazing, they both have "get out of jail free" cards in the form of flip kick and bouncing fish, they have no real disadvantaged state, are next to impossible to edge guard, have incredible damage racking combos, and reliable kill confirms, some of which kill startlingly early.

Hell, Sheik is the best rushdown character in the game and just so happens to also have a transcendent projectile that forces ACTUAL projectile-based characters to approach HER if she decides to camp.

These characters aren't just a problem for heavyweights, either, as they're the worst matchup in the game for a decent chunk of the cast. They've also been extremely dominant at tournaments for over a year now.

Don't be under the impression that nerfing these two would only benefit heavyweights. Most of the roster would be better for it, especially projectile-based characters who Sheik couldn't force to approach any longer.

They would still need to get around .

None of these characters are anywhere near as problematic as Sheik and ZSS.

I explained why two pages ago.

 

[NogGoggler]

No, they wouldn't.

Sheik and ZSS are pretty cut and dry examples of overtuned characters. Their frame data is amazing, they both have "get out of jail free" cards in the form of flip kick and bouncing fish, they have no real disadvantaged state, are next to impossible to edge guard, have incredible damage racking combos, and reliable kill confirms, some of which kill startlingly early.

Hell, Sheik is the best rushdown character in the game and just so happens to also have a transcendent projectile that forces ACTUAL projectile-based characters to approach HER if she decides to camp.

These characters aren't just a problem for heavyweights, either, as they're the worst matchup in the game for a decent chunk of the cast. They've also been extremely dominant at tournaments for over a year now.

Don't be under the impression that nerfing these two would only benefit heavyweights. Most of the roster would be better for it, especially projectile-based characters who Sheik couldn't force to approach any longer.



None of these characters are anywhere near as problematic as Sheik and ZSS.

I explained why two pages ago.

I feel like fox would slay if sheik didn't exist. That's the main thing that's holding him back.

 

[Pazzo.]

You've gotta love Bowser's pivot grab.

M-Melee Marth?? Is that you..?

What do you guys think about this random post where I talk about a few characters (because it would take too long to talk about every single one) and their (apparent) design philosophies, and the failures/successes therein? If they get an angry Grimer, they're in a bad spot, meaning they're generally too weak or too strong, or their design is flawed. If they get a happy Kirby, it means they are basically perfect! If the angry Grimers were all turned into happy Kirbys, this game would be a perfect beauty !


Intended Strengths: Fast, close range ninja with combo heavy moves. And fast. Fast.
Intended Weaknesses: Low damage output per move/in general, lowish KO power, susceptible to combos. (Needs to get close?)
Design Successes: Successfully a fast, close range ninja that combos very well.
Design Failures: Needles are the best projectile in the game, completely invalidating the "close range" necessity of her character. KOs are often safer/earlier than most other characters, thanks to Dthrow in particular. Combos are less effective on Sheik than they could be, thanks to Bouncing Fish being a risk-free combo breaker. Recovery far outclasses the vast majority of the cast, when it doesn't seem like that was the intent.
Verdict: strengths >>> weaknesses



Intended Strengths: Mobile, quick midrange fighter with pretty good CQC and strong combo ability? Not sure exactly what their design philosophy for ZSS is.
Intended Weaknesses: Risky Grab, no long range pressure... uhhh.. recovery, maybe?
Design Successes: Definitely mobile, definitely good at midrange (zair, paralyzer, mobility+safe aerials, SideB) good up close, combos are very strong. Grab is an actual risk.
Design Failures: Frame 1 Jab, so even if you close the distance (assuming she's designed to be more of a midrange fighter than a CQC one) she beats you. One of the best OoS UpBs in the game? Invincibility on Flip Jump? Recovery is nearly impossible to stop? Frequently KOs sooner than heavyweight/fatties do, while having little risk in these KO moves. Again, not sure what the heck her design is supposed to be, but there's some messy stuff in here.
Verdict: strengths >>> weaknesses (and her design confuses me, maybe somebody can clarify what she's intended to do)



Intended Strengths: Specializes in disjoints, projectiles, anti-camp (reflector and absorb) and rewarding grab.
Intended Weaknesses: Exploitable recovery, mediocre CQC, difficulty landing grabs.
Design Successes: Recovery is obviously taken advantage of, CQC is nothing amazing, grabs require effort to obtain. Disjoints can be hard to beat when used correctly, PK Thunder is easy to use as a projectile with decent reward, PK Fire is risky to use but has high reward, grab combos/KOs are very effective.
Design Failures: People cry when Backthrow kills them.
Verdict: people sometimes complain about him, but he's well designed imo!



Intended Strengths: Fast, close range fox with combos and the ability to force approaches (lasers, reflector). Also, fast. And combos.
Intended Weaknesses: Fallspeed makes him combo food, light weight means he won't live too long, recovery is highly vulnerable, Grab has mediocre reward, no disjoints.
Design Successes: Pretty much everything.
Design Failures: Pretty much nothing.
Verdict: another well designed character, basically in a perfect spot




Intended Strengths: Fast. Combos. Great CQC. Manly. Fast grab with good reward.
Intended Weaknesses: No projectiles or swords, so must get in close. Combo food. Weak recovery.
Design Successes: As with Fox, basically everything!
Design Failures: Basically nothing!
Verdict: I remember people complaining about Falcon, but I think every character (except the excessively weak ones) has the tools to deal with him.



Intended Strengths: aerial mobility, pressuring aerials, threat of Rest being a trump card, being pink, powerful edgeguarding.
Intended Weaknesses: extreme light weight, underwhelming ground game, forced to fight up close.
Design Successes: airspeed and quick aerials can lead to combos, Rest is fairly strong (without being excessive like in Melee) when used properly, ground game is appropriately underwhelming, while still having decent options in Dash Attack and highly damaging pummel/throws, edgeguarding game is quite strong.
Design Failures: light weight kills her ridiculously early, moreso than seems intended, especially because of Rage. Rest is randomly riskier by topscreen KOs being potentially instant, and Rest seems like an underwhelming trump card when the likes of True Shoryuken/Boost Kick/Limit Break/etc exist. Weak ground game and lack of safe ways to pressure shields makes shielding an exceptionally strong option against her.
Verdict: she's overall too weak, but buffing her could make her frustrating to play against. I know I already hate playing against Jigglypuff as-is.



Intended Strengths: strong CQC, grappling, and juggling ability, with a good recovery and edgeguarding power. Command Grab that can makes him have very different potential depending on the matchup. Short crouch I guess could be counted as an intended strength?
Intended Weaknesses: light weight, low mobility, no disjoints or projectiles, so he's forced to get in close.
Design Successes: combos are overall good, grab reward is good, edgeguarding is occasionally good.
Design Failures: Neutral is very weak, due to low speed and predictable movement options. Low speed makes combos and juggling difficult to maintain momentum, as most characters can jump away from combos and reset to neutral. Aerials have very short range with no disjoints, yet have very unimpressive frame data. Certain combos are a state of extremes: excessively good on fastfallers, while being underwhelming on most other characters. Recovery is actually among the bottom tier of the game, again due to slow speed.
Verdict: his weaknesses pile on top of each other to outweigh his strengths. For a CQC fighter, his Jab is one of the shortest in the game, yet it's Frame 3, which is slower than characters that have far better mobility and ranged options than him. His aerials are good in some ways, yet their frame data is extremely underwhelming, considering their hitboxes and his mobility.


Some more examples that I don't have time to elaborate on, I've already spent too much time making this pointless post!


s:

s: (probably most of the super fatties you guys have been talking about as well)

I'd put Robin in the Kirby list....

And add Falco to the Grimers.

 

[Amadeus9]

None of these characters are anywhere near as problematic as Sheik and ZSS.

I explained why two pages ago.

I'm not going to lie, MK is about as oppressive towards weaker fighters, especially heavies, as Sheik and ZSS.