Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[RonNewcomb]

Let me ask you all a question. If you remove ZSS and Sheik? How many characters will become viable i.e top 8 of super nationals?

From Evo/CEO/TBH5 and G3:

So you take out ZSS/Sheik. What other characters get into top 8, having doable matchups against everyone else mentioned?

Agreed: this is an excellent question. ROB and Greninja would flourish, Bowser would gain a tier. Zoners and super-heavyweights would exist.

MK's elevator combo would still be a problem.

 

[AvengerV]

You...do realize that the people around here who think Villager's top 5 because of Ranai (all, like, three of them) are different from the people who think that ZeRo won because he's ZeRo, right?

I don't know man, I still think Diddy Kong is incredibly viable against Sheik due to his neutral game being pretty much just as good.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Also, is it just me, or does anyone else think Shulk's up and down airs are two of the worst moves in the game? They make me cry.

They are definitely awkward at first and I was right with you when I picked up the character, but they have their niches. Dair can poke a good way under platforms which can be useful at landing when combined with MALLC. Outside of that it's a standard issue meteor that does like 25 damage with both hits in Buster if you've whittled their shield a bit.

Uair meanwhile has the second lowest landing lag of Shulk's aerials, allowing one to combo falling Uair into rising Uair for a good while with some help from Jump. This low landing lag combined with Buster's added damage also makes the move among Shulk's safest, though have fun spacing one of Shulk's shortest horizontal attacks. To top it off its knockback is excellent: it's basically an aerial Smash Attack.

They're weird to use, but they usually do their job.

 

[Nabbitnator]

Agreed: this is an excellent question. ROB and Greninja would flourish, Bowser would gain a tier. Zoners and super-heavyweights would exist.

MK's elevator combo would still be a problem.

I wonder if greninja would become more relevant in that case in he can nullify the elevator combo.

 

[Halifax?]

Wait so what happens when Sheiks start optimizing? Like to the point of Leffen or Armada Fox? What the **** if ZeRo optimizes Sheik what do you even do against that

 

[AvengerV]

Wait so what happens when Sheiks start optimizing? Like to the point of Leffen or Armada Fox? What the **** if ZeRo optimizes Sheik what do you even do against that

Outplay him like how ZeRo beats VoiD's optimized Sheik with Diddy. It won't be easy but it isn't impossible.

 

[Charoite]

Or how hungry box beat armada despite being a very bad MU for , unless is 100-0 you can win, of course is much more difficult, stressful,for you compared to the opponent.

 

[Latias]

Or how hungry box beat armada despite being a very bad MU for , unless is 100-0 you can win, of course is much more difficult, stressful,for you compared to the opponent.

Its not very bad for puff, its slight disavantage

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

I think it depends on who's playing these characters. Pit and Dark Pit, for example, has doable matchups with everybody mentioned (I think his worst is ZSS, and I'd call it doable, but frustrating). I don't think any of these characters hold him back, what holds him back is that he has, at best, a small handful of good players putting the work in, and even less that live outside of Japan. No Sheik / ZSS would be a boon, though, and definitely make things easier.

Same with characters like Greninja. Take away his Sheik matchup, he's totally viable, but who's going to represent him? Now maybe Sheik disappearing would entice more people to play him, since then he doesn't have a sizable roadblock potentially invalidating his viability, but if things stay the way they are, he doesn't have the talent to take that viability to the top.

Ike has a few good players and gets consistent results in big events, but it'd probably be easier if Sheik and ZSS didn't exist, so I think he's be up there too. Captain Falcon, Luigi, Cloud, Yoshi, to name a few off the top of my head, I think even characters like DK and Mega Man would be worth keeping an eye on if they didn't have to worry about these matchups. I agree that Sonic and Ryu should be up there by default, I don't think either character is holding them back.

It's an interesting question. I think it would make a difference to some extent, but I think what'd make a bigger difference is people really dedicating themselves to these characters instead of gravitating towards the best characters to optimise their chances of winning. It's a perfectly honest thing to do, and more power to 'em, but it does mean other good characters get left in the dust for not being quite good enough. Unless that changes, I don't think we will see too much of a shift in the meta.

To me it's less about seeing near future changes in the meta in a direction we want it to go. It's about the long lasting potential of this game, the future, the possibilities, what players years from now can do with undeveloped characters, and the game staying fresh for 20+ years bar there is a new Smash installment that is a successor and worthy replacement of Smash 4. Smash 4 is a big game but it's still a very small eSport. Also there's 58 friggin characters, so players are going to be spread very thin. Balance should balance the game without hurting the design too much. It shouldn't consider what characters have what dedicated players or how talented those players are. They give us the playdoh and we continuously shape it over and over.

 

[webbedspace]

Agreed: this is an excellent question. ROB and Greninja would flourish, Bowser would gain a tier. Zoners and super-heavyweights would exist.

MK's elevator combo would still be a problem.

I feel like this post myopically underrates how relevant Sonic, Rosalina, Villager and possibly Pikachu would become in the absence of those two. Super-heavyweights can absolutely not exist while either Sonic or Villager is in the game.

 

[Smog Frog]

what makes invalidate super-heavyweights as a general rule? i'm legit curious.

 

[Tizio Random]

http://imgur.com/USOW1qa

I came across this post and I just wanted to know your opinion about. It seems quite interesting actually.

 

[Smog Frog]

one thing i can say about that is that it looks funny as ****

now, just imagine doing that with . or . or . hell, maybe even .

but real talk, i dont see why you'd add the crouching bit to a normal perfect pivot. what purpose does it serve?

 

[Tizio Random]

Mmmh, reduced hurtbox maybe? But a question comes to my mind: doesn't PP have a moment, although rapid, in which your character face the other direction? This looks like a hell lot more to wavedashing, Fox seems to stand there.

 

[Radical Larry]

You know, even if a character doesn't win a tournament, we shouldn't take priority and precedence of a character that did over them all the time, right?

 

[Diddy Kong]

Outplay him like how ZeRo beats VoiD's optimized Sheik with Diddy. It won't be easy but it isn't impossible.

Diddy has one of the best matchups vs Sheik actually.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

That option seems to have quite a bit of potential imo. A lot of characters have dtilts that are good by themselves but don't really work out too well in tandem with the rest of their moveset, they seem to be somewhat 'isolated'. Being able to microspace 'approaching' and 'retreating' dtilts in neutral could be a worthwhile addition to characters' arsenals.

 

[Diddy Kong]

So about Pit, in what match ups does he actually do better than Dark Pit due to his arrows?

I heard Dark Pit actually has a better matchup vs Rosalina thanks to his Side B launching Luma differently than Pit's.\

Maybe edginess does have it's reward after all.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Agreed: this is an excellent question. ROB and Greninja would flourish, Bowser would gain a tier. Zoners and super-heavyweights would exist.

MK's elevator combo would still be a problem.

And in a rare case, Kirby would go down in the tier list (ZSS 50:50). Would there be any other characters who benefit negatively from this.

 

[Xeze]

Diddy has one of the best matchups vs Sheik actually.

Yet ZeRo keeps saying it's a bad MU for Diddy. Is he right or is he just saying it to give more emphasis to him beating Sheik with Diddy?

 

[FimPhym]

”pull insert counter". Endless discussion over what to call up throw up air (other than "nothing" since it would need no name). Unironically calling empty jump or empty jump grab "tomahawk" which saves 0-1 syllables and then prompts the commentator to explain what tomahawk is.

Smash players have a disease.

 

[L9999]

There are no matchups where pit has a better ratio than dark pit, but there where most matchups pre-patch where arrows where too good to pass up on. Dark Pit's arrows are just...so inferior. I wish they had some unique characteristic (like being able to kill or have more stun) that gave them a use, but they dont.

What to expect of a character programmed in less than a week.

Down air is actually pretty good after like 800 hrs put into shulk. I have learned to. use it and its one of his greatest tools.

Up air is anothee story, its one of the worst moves in the game, but because of jump monado it has to be like that. It would me a lot better with a 4 frame reduction on startup and linking both hits better.

Why is Uair so terrible?

 

[Amadeus9]

Sheik's ability to gatekeep mk is most of whats holding him back. no sheik = a much scarier mk presence at tournaments.

 

[AvengerV]

Diddy has one of the best matchups vs Sheik actually.

Exactly, offstage Diddy loses but on stage its pretty much even due to both of them having amazing neutral games. Its like 55-45 in Sheik's favor but is still doable for Diddy for sure as long as you avoid being offstage.

 

[SapphSabre777]

I've taken a deeper look at the tech, as well as the controller setup for the tech. I'm basing this off of information from other people as well as my own assessments at points, so if I am wrong in all of this, my apologies. Take this as only theory, just for safety.

The tech was featured on a YouTube video posted by @Meshima, explaining techs involving the "Bidou" setup. This setup requires that the C-Stick is set to Special and that you hold the B button in some way so that you can pivot. The benefits to this over tilts is simple, using moves and not being as vulnerable when using the Tilt-Stick setup. From what it looks like and what I have heard, you have to perfect pivot and crouch on the turnaround at a specific frame. Also, I would assume that it is also possible to do it with the other setups as well, even without a C-Stick assist. As the video suggests, the Bidou setup might give the best ground moblie potential to certain fast or slippery characters.

However, if these controls are true, then there are a couple of crippling flaws that might just make this merely a situational tech. First is the amount of frame perfect inputs you must make. You are always guaranteed to make one frame perfect input (two if you do it without the C-Stick) in order to do this, on the perfect pivot and on the crouch on the turnaround thanks to the perfect pivot. From the sounds of it, this tech is by no means easy and will require extensive training to get down. That wasn't the biggest issue I found, though.

The biggest sacrifice is actually setup-related. Any setup done requires a trade-off of some sort: with no C-Stick, you have to be able to do two consecutive frame perfect moves at will, which is insane in difficulty. With Tilt-Stick, you will temporarily lose the ability to attack within the time frame you set up for the perfect pivot. With Bidou, your ability to do retreating and advancing aerials is reduced (though advancing B-Air, maybe F-Air, goes up, but it has to be a turnaround to do so), possibly nerfing aerial control.

It is interesting, I can say that much, but I'd be looking at the Bidou setup on some characters, not just the lone tech involved with it. A lot of the super fast characters like Fox and Falcon will like it a lot, I feel, if this advances a bit. Not too sure if it will be the "wavedash" a lot of people crave for, though.

 

[S_B]

Because Diddy Kong has almost just as good of a neutral game as Sheik does and outplays the Sheiks. Diddy F-Air outranges Sheik's Fair. Dtilt into grab is a true combo at most percents on Sheik. Banana is just so good. People underrate Diddy so much now just because people are overlooking ZeRo because "Oh its just ZeRo he will win anyways" but when Ranai wins with Villager a character with less results and less reps they say "Oh Villager is top 5 because of Ranai".

Yeah, Diddy is still an immensely solid character.

When they nerfed him and then later buff his smash attacks, what they really did was refocus his game around banana play, which is how it was supposed to be from the start.

Banana play has counter play, at least (ie get the banana away from Diddy and force him to guess as to when you're going to hit him with it).

I feel like this post myopically underrates how relevant Sonic, Rosalina, Villager and possibly Pikachu would become in the absence of those two. Super-heavyweights can absolutely not exist while either Sonic or Villager is in the game.

Sonic and Villager are generally bad matchups for HWs, but nowhere near as bad as Sheik/ZSS.

For Bowser, villager is all about powershielding and patience. It's seriously about picking the right times to get in and get some damage and it's actually okay to stay away from villager the remainder of the time. Bowser can also pop both of villagers balloons without hitting villager.

Sonic is a different story, but Sonic actually has to get IN on you to really do any damage, and while he has the tools to keep you guessing, pivot grab shuts him down hard and he at least has to take a risk to damage you.

Sheik and ZSS don't have to risk ANYTHING to completely demolish all of the HWs. Sheik can needle camp them forever and they can never catch her (I think DK actually has the best Sheik matchup of the bunch and even his is pretty bad) and ZSS can poke with paralyzer to confirm into the grab or just SH nair HWs in the face all day because the only way HWs can punish that is by powershielding it and then using like a frame 7 or better option, which most of them don't have (Bowser has it in OoS fortress and maybe Charizard's jab?). Her grab can also catch landings VERY well, especially on big targets.

Pikachu is probably a more problematic matchup for HWs than Sonic or villager, but even he still isn't as bad as Sheik/ZSS because, again, he needs to get close to do any real damage and his projectile is easily powershielded. His quick attack sucks to deal with, but it's possible to punish it unless he does it perfectly every single time.

Rosa is also problematic, but again, she at least has counterplay in removing Luma from the picture. She could probably stand to have some of her more ridiculous hitboxes shrunk a bit, and maybe focus more of her killing power into Luma (really, when Luma is dead, Rosa should almost never be able to kill with a smash attack).

Really, the trouble with Sheik and ZSS for HWs is that they can do pretty much everything they need to do in relative safety. They don't need to risk anything while any misstep by the HW can often mean losing a stock or at least getting comboed for 30-50%.

 

[NogGoggler]

Me and my skype group were just talking about this. What do you guys think of how pikachu has been commonly placed at 3rd/4th best in the game but has been performing relatively poorly in the past few nationals/regionals.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Honestly, I definitely see Pikachu as being overrated at this point. It's not like Sheik where he has a lot of exposure to prove his worth; basically the only time Pikachu has done anything close to what Sheik and Zamus have is back at EVO, where ESAM cheesed his way through the tourney with HSB. Since then, Pika's been far less apparent, I've noticed.

On the subject of , though; I honestly think that if Charizard had 's air speed and jump height that he'd easily be classed as the best heavyweight in the game, bar none. His kit is solid, but that sluggish air speed and kind of crap jump height really hampers him when trying to recover. But even with those flaws, I still think 'Zard has the best potential of the superheavies to grow into a notable character in the meta, especially if customs were to become standard (an event I also feel would also massively benefit from), if only he had those two problems rectified. As it is, Charizard's way too easy to gimp for a Pokemon well-known for flying.

As for the other super heavies; is just crippled without Cyclone, and is basically a gimped Charizard without the beneficial buffs Charizard's been getting. Let's not even get started with default ...

and are the only really viable superheavies (well, as well if we count him as a superheavy). And even then, they get mauled by and .

 

[Zelder]

Me and my skype group were just talking about this. What do you guys think of how pikachu has been commonly placed at 3rd/4th best in the game but has been performing relatively poorly in the past few nationals/regionals.

Probably a result of when ESAM was the third best American player for a while. You'll note that the Japanese never placed Pikachu as high on their tier lists as we tended to. As people began to realize that Pikachu was mostly being driven by ESAM's results, he dropped a bit in most tier lists. He went back up for a bit after the shield stun patch when it was made apparent that his moves (elec modifier) were now great on shield. But I haven't seen him as top 3-5 in tier lists in a while, and I'd be super skeptical of any new tier lists that placed him that high.

 

[AvengerV]

Me and my skype group were just talking about this. What do you guys think of how pikachu has been commonly placed at 3rd/4th best in the game but has been performing relatively poorly in the past few nationals/regionals.

Yeah, I personally think Pikachu is top 10 but has to work really hard to get his kills which is why I don't even think Pikachu is Top 5. I think and maybe are better characters due to them having better kill options. is probably on the same level as on the lower end of top 10 but still better than .

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Is this commonly known? I didn't know there was an exception to the rule for when you can't wall tech.

Poor Falcon.

 

[LancerStaff]

I heard Dark Pit actually has a better matchup vs Rosalina thanks to his Side B launching Luma differently than Pit's.\

Maybe edginess does have it's reward after all.

Well, it's that alongside Pit's arrows not doing a lot of good between Gravitational Pull and Luma. Pit's arrows can still do stuff and Rosalina can't actually punish him for using them like Ness and G&W can (yaknow, healing and Oil Panic) but being able to one-shot Luma from center stage, even if by a laggy move, is perceived as more useful.

That and Rosalina's light and likes to run away a lot, meaning she'll be in the perfect position to die at like 30% to a rage Electroshock. Scrub Rosalinas always get so salty when I read a roll.

 

[Solfiner]

Why is Uair so terrible?

It's not terrible, just his worst aerial. It's pretty average really, hard to land most of the time but rewarding when you do.

 

[RonNewcomb]

Spoiler: Tier List

S
A+
A
A-
B+
B
B-
C+
C
C-
D
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Spoiler: Explanations

First, I should mention that my confidence decreases further down this list. So if I ranked your favorite character in C- and you think they belong in C+, I may just be ignorant of what they're capable of, or I might just be waiting for someone to put the theory into practice. Eventually I had to stop agonizing over the details and make a few tough decisions, so it's possible that I screwed a few things up. Please don't read too much into it. However, feel free to hound me on the higher rankings, because I'm more confident in those and much more willing to defend them.

The "S" in S-rank does not stand for "Sheik;" she just happens to be the only character lacking any notable weaknesses or disadvantaged matchups. Though she is not omnipresent, she is obviously a strong determinant of viability. It has traditionally been expected that a character ranked at S centralizes the game, and it's hard to argue that she does not.

The A-ranks are for characters who are viable, i.e. consistently capable of high placements at major tournaments. A+ characters have even or close-to-even matchups vs. Sheik and only minor otherwise, and are capable of dominating the lower-tiers in a similar fashion as an S-rank character. ZSS and Rosa obviously fit these criteria, and though I was initially on the fence about it, I'd also argue Diddy does as well. A characters either have strong spreads overall but lack the dominating quality of A+ against the lower tiers (arguably MK and Ryu), or dominate low tiers just fine but struggle noticeably with one of the higher-ranked characters (Sonic and Fox). A- is for characters who are still clearly viable, but who either have one or two matchups where a secondary is strongly advisable (Ness, Villager, Pika), or (in the case of Mario) just don't win any notable matches against any higher-tiered characters.

The B-ranks are for characters who are borderline viable, but still capable of going deep in a major given the right conditions, and can often be seen dominating at the local and regional levels. These characters might be held back by several bad matchups, or just otherwise have an underwhelming spread. However, they still possess enough advantages that they can be worth using. In particular, B+ features several characters who can serve as counterpicks to certain A-tiers (Luigi, Wario, Falcon). The same is true of a select few characters in B and B-, such as Ike and Mega-Man. Others (Greninja and the Pits) are quite well-rounded but also don't win anything notable, and the small deficits seem to add up. The higher a character is ranked here, the more consistently they have been shown to be able to overcome their limitations, and the more consistently they have shown utility within certain matchups.

C-rank characters are not "crappy;" they're just noticeably limited in some way. A number of them exceeded my initial expectations thanks to a dedicated few players (Palutena, Mac, D3). Others have shown that they can potentially be used as counterpicks despite losing to a lot of good characters (Doc, Samus). Still others possess oppressive combo games but glaringly flawed neutral (Samus again, Falco, Bowser Jr.). A few of these characters have been notably buffed (Bowser, Link, Charizard), but it remains to be seen how important those changes will be in the long run. I should admit that I was a little uncomfortable ranking Mewtwo and Lucas here, but can't justify putting them higher due to low representation and their somewhat polarizing designs.

D-rank implies some degree of dysfunctionality, but by no means does it imply that either character ranked here is hopeless. Both Zelda and Jiggs have shown some recent degree of promise thanks to Ven and Dol, respectively. However, I would never encourage someone to main either of them.

I really like Djent's tier list. Which is why I'm gonna complain. I just don't feel Diddy is that high. Throw out ZeRo skewing the results and Diddy seems to be A- with the rest of the red cap brigade. This is especially true as smashers are still perfecting their offstage game; once done, this monkey is toast any time he must recover low. He really seems like a Ness kind of character: good bnb on-stage game with a kill confirm, but recovering low endangers his stock everytime, against nearly the entire cast.

 

[BSP]

Is this commonly known? I didn't know there was an exception to the rule for when you can't wall tech.

Poor Falcon.

Yeah the beefy smash doods' video that went over untechables mentioned you can always tech throws since there's no hitlag.

Poor Falcon indeed.

 

[S_B]

Honestly, I definitely see Pikachu as being overrated at this point. It's not like Sheik where he has a lot of exposure to prove his worth; basically the only time Pikachu has done anything close to what Sheik and Zamus have is back at EVO, where ESAM cheesed his way through the tourney with HSB. Since then, Pika's been far less apparent, I've noticed.

And ESAM got dunked by Nairo's ZSS, a matchup which ESAM said in the past that Pika wins, so uh, yeah...

On the subject of , though; I honestly think that if Charizard had 's air speed and jump height that he'd easily be classed as the best heavyweight in the game, bar none. His kit is solid, but that sluggish air speed and kind of crap jump height really hampers him when trying to recover. But even with those flaws, I still think 'Zard has the best potential of the superheavies to grow into a notable character in the meta, especially if customs were to become standard (an event I also feel would also massively benefit from), if only he had those two problems rectified. As it is, Charizard's way too easy to gimp for a Pokemon well-known for flying.

As for the other super heavies; is just crippled without Cyclone, and is basically a gimped Charizard without the beneficial buffs Charizard's been getting. Let's not even get started with default ...

and are the only really viable superheavies (well, as well if we count him as a superheavy). And even then, they get mauled by and .

-Zard's airspeed confuses the hell out of me.

-I think DK would be doing immensely better if not for Sheik/ZSS. He loses those matchups crazy hard.

-Why the **** does Ganondorf not have either a kill throw or a throw followup? He has little tiny t-rex arms when grabbing but stretch armstrong arms when LEDGEgrabbing. Plus he's magical and magic/psychic characters historically have stronger throws.

-D3 needs his Dthrow > Bair combo back (as a kill confirm), for starters.

But yeah, toning ZSS and Sheik down a bit, mainly through making some of their moves actually punishble by characters who aren't incredibly fast, would probably bring heavyweights back into the fold in a BIG way. Some other characters give them problems, but the distance between, say, Bowser and Pikachu is nowhere NEAR the distance between Bowser and ZSSheik.

 

[williamsga555]

Dedede actually still has Dthrow→Bair...but only at low percents, where it doesn't kill. Good damage racking though.

 

[S_B]

Dedede actually still has Dthrow→Bair...but only at low percents, where it doesn't kill. Good damage racking though.

Good point, I'll edit for clarity cause, yeah, he needs something for a kill confirm.

I think the rule with all HWs should very simply be "don't get grabbed".

Frankly, I'd like it if D3 was an exception in that he relied more on gordo shenanigans, but that's not working out well overall right now.

 

[Djent]

I really like Djent's tier list. Which is why I'm gonna complain. I just don't feel Diddy is that high. Throw out ZeRo skewing the results and Diddy seems to be A- with the rest of the red cap brigade. This is especially true as smashers are still perfecting their offstage game; once done, this monkey is toast any time he must recover low. He really seems like a Ness kind of character: good bnb on-stage game with a kill confirm, but recovering low endangers his stock everytime, against nearly the entire cast.

Diddy is honestly hard to rank. He had roughly even MUs with #s 1 and 2, but then arguably loses to several other good characters (Rosa, Fox, Sonic). The latter holds him back in some cases, but then the same is arguably true for Rosa and possibly even ZSS in other MUs. Meanwhile, a lot of mid-tier mains complain about Diddy (Peach, Yoshi, and G&W are some examples). He may not win super free against heavies or anything, but he obviously causes trouble for other good characters. So based on my criteria (which I realize are debateable), A+ and 4th place seemed like the best fit for him.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

I really like Djent's tier list. Which is why I'm gonna complain. I just don't feel Diddy is that high. Throw out ZeRo skewing the results and Diddy seems to be A- with the rest of the red cap brigade. This is especially true as smashers are still perfecting their offstage game; once done, this monkey is toast any time he must recover low. He really seems like a Ness kind of character: good bnb on-stage game with a kill confirm, but recovering low endangers his stock everytime, against nearly the entire cast.

The tier list I do agree is good, a couple of odd placings don't detract from it being overall a really accurate tier list for what the meta is showing currently.

Still though, ZeRo dominating and winning with the character is plenty-a-reason to prove he is at least high A. Results show potential and if he's winning it shows he is good enough to win.

also Kirby bottom 10 plz