Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

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thehard

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What Brawl players "moved on" to Melee other than M2K I guess? There's almost no overlap of top players. Please no more blatant misinformation
 

FallofBrawl

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So Anti and Ally are both thinking about picking up Cloud.

People think this is Sheik's year after G3?

Naw son, 2016 is going to be cloudy.
 

HoSmash4

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Let me ask you all a question. If you remove ZSS and Sheik? How many characters will become viable i.e top 8 of super nationals?

From Evo/CEO/TBH5 and G3: :4fox::4sheik::4zss::4diddy::4mario::4ness::rosalina::4wario2::4villager::4pikachu::4pacman::4metaknight:

So you take out ZSS/Sheik. What other characters get into top 8, having doable matchups against everyone else mentioned?
 
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Planty

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:4olimar: is the first one I thought of. He has some losing matchups against some of the characters you've shown, but they're doable.
 

Mario766

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Ike's worst MU would become Diddy, most likely.

Everything else is basically even, outside of Fox.

Maybe not top 8 of super nationals or majors, but definitely up there.
 

Smog Frog

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i consider japan to be a national thing because compared to other regions japan is STACKED. also it's relatively small. komorikiri regularly places top 8 in japan.
 

Rikkhan

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Let me ask you all a question. If you remove ZSS and Sheik? How many characters will become viable i.e top 8 of super nationals?

From Evo/CEO/TBH5 and G3: :4fox::4sheik::4zss::4diddy::4mario::4ness::rosalina::4wario2::4villager::4pikachu::4pacman::4metaknight:

So you take out ZSS/Sheik. What other characters get into top 8, having doable matchups against everyone else mentioned?
It depends, the meta is defined by top players if let's say sheik and ZSS are nerfed to oblivion, I have no idea what would top players will pick. In the theorycrafting side I say Metaknigth will be pretty scary.
 

HoSmash4

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i consider japan to be a national thing because compared to other regions japan is STACKED. also it's relatively small. komorikiri regularly places top 8 in japan.
Ah that totally skipped my mind. Totally different meta though where no sheiks dominate.
 

Wintropy

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Let me ask you all a question. If you remove ZSS and Sheik? How many characters will become viable i.e top 8 of super nationals?

From Evo/CEO/TBH5 and G3: :4fox::4sheik::4zss::4diddy::4mario::4ness::rosalina::4wario2::4villager::4pikachu::4pacman::4metaknight:

So you take out ZSS/Sheik. What other characters get into top 8, having doable matchups against everyone else mentioned?
I think it depends on who's playing these characters. Pit and Dark Pit, for example, has doable matchups with everybody mentioned (I think his worst is ZSS, and I'd call it doable, but frustrating). I don't think any of these characters hold him back, what holds him back is that he has, at best, a small handful of good players putting the work in, and even less that live outside of Japan. No Sheik / ZSS would be a boon, though, and definitely make things easier.

Same with characters like Greninja. Take away his Sheik matchup, he's totally viable, but who's going to represent him? Now maybe Sheik disappearing would entice more people to play him, since then he doesn't have a sizable roadblock potentially invalidating his viability, but if things stay the way they are, he doesn't have the talent to take that viability to the top.

Ike has a few good players and gets consistent results in big events, but it'd probably be easier if Sheik and ZSS didn't exist, so I think he's be up there too. Captain Falcon, Luigi, Cloud, Yoshi, to name a few off the top of my head, I think even characters like DK and Mega Man would be worth keeping an eye on if they didn't have to worry about these matchups. I agree that Sonic and Ryu should be up there by default, I don't think either character is holding them back.

It's an interesting question. I think it would make a difference to some extent, but I think what'd make a bigger difference is people really dedicating themselves to these characters instead of gravitating towards the best characters to optimise their chances of winning. It's a perfectly honest thing to do, and more power to 'em, but it does mean other good characters get left in the dust for not being quite good enough. Unless that changes, I don't think we will see too much of a shift in the meta.
 

Wintropy

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:4darkpit: too (Paseriman and Earth are both using him now for certain matchups).
Y'know, the more I think about it, the more I have to concede that Dark Pit is the better of the two.

It's not wrong to say Pit is an "honest" character, but then I think of the Electroshock cheese and I laugh and laugh and laugh and laugh~

Arrow sniping is good too and means Pit isn't totally invalidated, but I wouldn't really call that "cheese". Catching landings with u-smash and then mixing it up with a fatal side-b, on the other hand, is the best feeling in the world~

Thanks for pointing that out, by the way! I was kinda wondering when they'd hop on the Dark Pit hype train. Do you know what matchups they favour him in, out of interest?
 
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kaz99

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So about Pit, in what match ups does he actually do better than Dark Pit due to his arrows?
 

Appledees

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Let me ask you all a question. If you remove ZSS and Sheik? How many characters will become viable i.e top 8 of super nationals?

From Evo/CEO/TBH5 and G3: :4fox::4sheik::4zss::4diddy::4mario::4ness::rosalina::4wario2::4villager::4pikachu::4pacman::4metaknight:

So you take out ZSS/Sheik. What other characters get into top 8, having doable matchups against everyone else mentioned?
Mario would still give Megaman alot of trouble but it would be a more manageable matchup and more winnable than Sheik. MK is pretty worrisome though and that might be his 2nd worst matchup but my experience with MK is really small so I have no idea if its that bad.

Megaman would probably do alot better though with Sheik gone cause Sheik invalidates anything Megaman does
 

Solfiner

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So about Pit, in what match ups does he actually do better than Dark Pit due to his arrows?
Any MU where the opponent has a gimpable recovery Pit can snipe pretty much. That's just speaking from my own experience though, there might be some match-ups where it's good in a different way.
 

Teshie U

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What makes Mario so hard for Megaman? I understand Sheik combos him and can I guess outcamp with needles, but what is Mario doing that makes it commonly considered bad?
 

Djent

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Thanks for pointing that out, by the way! I was kinda wondering when they'd hop on the Dark Pit hype train. Do you know what matchups they favour him in, out of interest?
Paseriman used him against Komorikiri's (still new) Cloud at Pre KVO, going 1-1 then switching to Pit for the final game.

Earth used Dark Pit at the Sumabato Qualifiers (I forget vs. who though), and then also in doubles with 9B at Genesis (they beat NAKAT + False). Dark Pit is clearly the superior pick in doubles, if that wasn't already obvious. :bee:
 

Wintropy

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Thanks Djent Djent ! Great find!

But yeah, I think the Pits have a decent amount of potential yet to be discovered. We know about their footstool and lock setups and a handful of other trivial tech (slopedashing, ledge-canceling, etc), but there's been relatively little development in terms of their overall meta. I'm happy players like Earth and Paseriman have decided to push things further by experimenting with Dark Pit, his side-b buff really made a significant change to his gameplan, and it's very exciting to see where it goes from here!
 

Solfiner

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My thoughts on how Shulk could be finetuned to become a stronger character:

He has two big problems; frame data (shocker) and his Sonic/Fox MUs.

To be fair to the developers, I could see why they gave him bad frame data to begin with.
Insane range with good frames is NOT something anyone wants to deal with. And before the obvious Cloud comparison, no it's not the same thing. Shulk's Nair coming out at frame 5 would be filthy since it lingers more than Cloud's and can already combo into a free grab at low %s and with Speed (Not to mention that Shulk has some pretty good throws.) Couple that in with the angle it has and it would be too much for a lot of characters to handle.

Bair coming out at frame 18 is a bit excessive but makes sense as well, seeing as it's a good spacing move that kills early.

Now, with that out of the way I'd say that he would really benefit from a faster jab since a frame 5 one really doesn't help him remove pressure which is what he struggles a lot with. A faster grab would also be really nice, though that's probably too greedy of me.

Other than that, making all of his aerials come out a couple of frames earlier would really benefit the character without making him too crazy. Giving him better frame data would also make the MUs that he really struggle with a lot more doable. The reason why he gets absolutely wrecked by Sonic and Fox is because they are high pressure characters that he just can't handle since his fastest move is frame 5.
 

Vyrnx

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My thoughts on how Shulk could be finetuned to become a stronger character:

He has two big problems; frame data (shocker) and his Sonic/Fox MUs.

To be fair to the developers, I could see why they gave him bad frame data to begin with.
Insane range with good frames is NOT something anyone wants to deal with. And before the obvious Cloud comparison, no it's not the same thing. Shulk's Nair coming out at frame 5 would be filthy since it lingers more than Cloud's and can already combo into a free grab at low %s and with Speed (Not to mention that Shulk has some pretty good throws.) Couple that in with the angle it has and it would be too much for a lot of characters to handle.

Bair coming out at frame 18 is a bit excessive but makes sense as well, seeing as it's a good spacing move that kills early.

Now, with that out of the way I'd say that he would really benefit from a faster jab since a frame 5 one really doesn't help him remove pressure which is what he struggles a lot with. A faster grab would also be really nice, though that's probably too greedy of me.

Other than that, making all of his aerials come out a couple of frames earlier would really benefit the character without making him too crazy. Giving him better frame data would also make the MUs that he really struggle with a lot more doable. The reason why he gets absolutely wrecked by Sonic and Fox is because they are high pressure characters that he just can't handle since his fastest move is frame 5.
I would reduce FAF on jabs 1 and 2 significantly. If that move were safer to use as a sort of keep out move without taking big risks for no reason, it would really benefit him.

I don't think Shulk is a hopeless character. Every now and then I notice something crazy he can do, like buster ftilt doing freaking 18 damage--on an already good ftilt (his tilts in general are great). His throws are high damaging buster or not, his edge guarding is good, his survivability is great. He just has such an underwhelming neutral with meh approaches. Reduced jab FAF and lower landing lag on fair/bair would help. I would be really interested to see Shulk's bair in action if it got some adjustments to frame data. Also, is it just me, or does anyone else think Shulk's up and down airs are two of the worst moves in the game? They make me cry.
 
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Solfiner

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I would reduce FAF on jabs 1 and 2 significantly. If that move were safer to use as a sort of keep out move without taking big risks for no reason, it would really benefit him.

I don't think Shulk is a hopeless character. Every now and then I notice something crazy he can do, like buster ftilt doing freaking 18 damage--on an already good ftilt (his tilts in general are great). His throws are high damaging buster or not, his edge guarding is good, his survivability is great. He just has such an underwhelming neutral with meh approaches. Reduced jab FAF and lower landing lag on fair/bair would help. I would be really interested to see Shulk's bair in action if it got some adjustments to frame data. Also, is it just me, or does anyone else think Shulk's up and down airs are two of the worst moves in the game? They make me cry.
Dair is actually really good at catching recoveries and it's strong. Uair is worse but can kill early and pressure airborne opponents. The best way to make both of them better would be to make the two hits link more reliably.
 
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HeavyLobster

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My thoughts on how Shulk could be finetuned to become a stronger character:

He has two big problems; frame data (shocker) and his Sonic/Fox MUs.

To be fair to the developers, I could see why they gave him bad frame data to begin with.
Insane range with good frames is NOT something anyone wants to deal with. And before the obvious Cloud comparison, no it's not the same thing. Shulk's Nair coming out at frame 5 would be filthy since it lingers more than Cloud's and can already combo into a free grab at low %s and with Speed (Not to mention that Shulk has some pretty good throws.) Couple that in with the angle it has and it would be too much for a lot of characters to handle.

Bair coming out at frame 18 is a bit excessive but makes sense as well, seeing as it's a good spacing move that kills early.

Now, with that out of the way I'd say that he would really benefit from a faster jab since a frame 5 one really doesn't help him remove pressure which is what he struggles a lot with. A faster grab would also be really nice, though that's probably too greedy of me.

Other than that, making all of his aerials come out a couple of frames earlier would really benefit the character without making him too crazy. Giving him better frame data would also make the MUs that he really struggle with a lot more doable. The reason why he gets absolutely wrecked by Sonic and Fox is because they are high pressure characters that he just can't handle since his fastest move is frame 5.
Shulk's jab coming out a frame faster would help a lot. Nair should not under any circumstances be buffed any more. Its range is crazy and it has low landing lag. Other aerials might be able to be buffed slightly in terms of frame data, but Nair needs slow startup to make up for everything else about it being great.
 

Das Koopa

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After playing around with Zelda out of boredom, I started to think of the "philosophy" and design of her character. She's often considered one of the worst characters in the game, and I don't dispute that, but I think I see what the design philosophy is with her character and how she could be improved.

So, Zelda as a character is defensive. Her reactions are defensive, her moveset is defensive, and the idea of her is that she's a physical frail mage-type character who can cast magically strong moves as a way of defense/repelling. This is why she has 4 Falcon Knee-style aerials. She's not meant to be aerial at all, so the move repels an opponent as a way for you to safely return to the ground.

You can see shades of this in Din's Fire, Naryu's Love, and Phantom Slash; All defensive in nature.

I think you can make her work without drastically altering her moveset, and the buffs are roughly expected;

-She should be able to hold Phantom Knight and it should probably come out a lot faster if you've charged it, and it should be more effective as a wall. Imo, make it a versatile move that can be used as punish, as a wall, and as a practical KO move at certain higher %s. It's an entire puppet, after all.

-Din's Fire needs to be faster. I don't even particularly care about Freefall in this context unless we want to argue about it as an aerial staller: It needs to be faster as a way to put on actual pressure.

-Give her a throw > Lightning Kick combo that goes online at 90%-100% against most opponents so you can make approaching her a bit more complicated and thoughtful. She doesn't need a damage building throw imo, just a finisher. If we want a damage builder, maybe make something work with Uair.

-While she's not meant to be aerial, reducing the ending lag on her aerials just a bit would be nice so a missed/sourspotted kick aren't heavily punished. Or at least give her a few close range options, so you can say "You should've went for Naryu's instead of Lightning Kick."

-Reduce the FAF on Naryu's Love to make it a little more capable of being a mixup move or a good reflector against spammy characters.

Basically her floatiness isn't meant to be used offensively ala Jigglypuff, it's meant to be her weakness. So instead of getting rid of that weakness, just improve her defensive playstyle by giving more versatility and speed to her specials and giving her a few options.

/random post
 

|RK|

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:4kirby: would like to have a word with you.
I could do with some Kirby buffs - bring it all the way to the other side for the Sheik/ZSS matchup.

More importantly, undisputed high tier would be good enough. No need for Sheik/ZSS nerfs here :p

(But I'm just rambling)
 

Solfiner

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Regarding Zelda: please make the sweet spots on her Fair and Basir not miniscule. It almost feels like you have to get lucky to land them.
 

Y2Kay

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So about Pit, in what match ups does he actually do better than Dark Pit due to his arrows?
There are no matchups where pit has a better ratio than dark pit, but there where most matchups pre-patch where arrows where too good to pass up on. Dark Pit's arrows are just...so inferior. I wish they had some unique characteristic (like being able to kill or have more stun) that gave them a use, but they dont.

:150:
 

LancerStaff

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So about Pit, in what match ups does he actually do better than Dark Pit due to his arrows?
Honestly, a lot. Electroshock is good and definitely worth considering for most matchups but at a certain level you're just not going to see it used. It's crazy overtuned, yes, but it's still a glorified Fsmash as far as most are concerned.

Dark Pit does better against characters who can nullify projectiles safely and those that can be easily gimped by Electroshock offstage.

Pit does better against characters with effective projectiles, charging mechanics, and recoveries easy to gimp with arrows.

Against anybody else, it comes down to wether or not you prefer a powerful but unreliable move or a boost to your zoning/advantage/disadvantage/recovery.
 

Cassio

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Laughing at the fact that someone called over half a dozen sheik losses abnormal. One or two is abnormal but suggesting that 6 sets go the other way is an indication of how deep people are reaching to prove their position. One or two is what we'd expect from MK or Fox, but what we see with sheik is a trend that shes not easy to succeed with as people suggest. Good sheiks already struggle without immense work and I expect anyone transitioning hoping for easier success will find they will struggle similarly.

Anyways, Im going to suggest that people rely significantly less on the choices and opinions of high level players beyond another piece of information to be analyzed. Theres really no point having a discussion if people are just going to quote and follow high level players without analysis and context, and simply tossing their opinion in here as a means to end discussion or given as a hard fact tosses accurate discussion off course.

Good players can provide great insights but are also prone to bias and error as well, or may rely on their specific results and skill when analyzing a character or quick to dismiss characters that dont quickly give them the results they want.
 
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ligersandtigons

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can somebody with a better understanding of high level smash than me analyze and breakdown how exactly @TSM ZeRo uses Diddy to dominate other Sheik players?

Is he just simply outplaying the player or is he following a strict gameplan to counterplay sheik?

Hopefully ZeRo sees this mention and just explains his strategy himself lol
 

Cassio

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As far as balance tweaks go, Im earnestly more worried about cloud and the other new characters since there are fewer opportunities to balance them after theyve progressed and at least what we know so far they seem very strong.
 

S_B

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What Brawl players "moved on" to Melee other than M2K I guess? There's almost no overlap of top players. Please no more blatant misinformation
I swore there were others beyond M2K but I'd have to go check. I assume most players who grew tired with Brawl either went back to Melee or to Project M.

I know we've also had Melee players dabble in SSB4 but then just refocus back on Melee.

Either way, Melee's numbers speak for themselves. It's still a juggernaut, especially considering it's a 15 year old game.

I hope SSB4 has it's staying power.

Cloudy with a chance of Needles and Boostkicks.
Fixed. ;)

Let me ask you all a question. If you remove ZSS and Sheik? How many characters will become viable i.e top 8 of super nationals?

From Evo/CEO/TBH5 and G3: :4fox::4sheik::4zss::4diddy::4mario::4ness::rosalina::4wario2::4villager::4pikachu::4pacman::4metaknight:

So you take out ZSS/Sheik. What other characters get into top 8, having doable matchups against everyone else mentioned?
A good question (and I'm not sure why this post doesn't have more likes for starting a good discussion)...

I know right off the bat that all of the heavyweights would do better. How much better depends upon the heavyweight, but big bodies get bodied the hardest by the characters who have the easiest time comboing them (and boost kick is massively difficult to escape from for any large character and kills so early that it largely invalidates much of a heavy's weight advantage).

DK Will and Ally both agreed (from what I heard) that DK has good matchups against the Mario bros in general, though Fox is challenging for him, from what I hear (though not ZSS challenging). Not sure on Zard and D3, but I'm pretty sure either Sheik or ZSS was D3's worst matchup.

The other matchups aren't all great, but I don't believe there's anything as downright polarizing as those HWs have against ZSS/Sheik.

Laughing at the fact that someone called over half a dozen sheik losses abnormal. One or two is abnormal but suggesting that 6 sets go the other way is an indication of how deep people are reaching to prove their position. One or two is what we'd expect from MK or Fox, but what we see with sheik is a trend that shes not easy to succeed with as people suggest. Good sheiks already struggle without immense work and I expect anyone transitioning hoping for easier success will find they will struggle similarly.
I agree that Sheik is definitely a difficult character to learn. If you're looking to pick up a quick high tier, I'd steer people toward ZSS first and foremost.

But the reward for getting good with Sheik is amazing, especially considering how forgiving many of her moves are. I think the biggest issue a lot of characters have with Sheik/ZSS (particularly slower characters) is that the windows to punish them are INCREDIBLY small, and that's if they choose to overextend in the first place.

Pretty much any character built around "poke and punish" gameplay suffers tremendously when their opponent's pokes almost never leave them open to punishment.

As far as balance tweaks go, Im earnestly more worried about cloud and the other new characters since there are fewer opportunities to balance them after theyve progressed and at least what we know so far they seem very strong.
I'm hoping there will be 2-3 balance patches after the last character is added, just to ensure nothing broken slips under the radar, but Sakurai may just wan the whole thing over and done with by this point. :(
 
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Goesasu

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I would reduce FAF on jabs 1 and 2 significantly. If that move were safer to use as a sort of keep out move without taking big risks for no reason, it would really benefit him.

I don't think Shulk is a hopeless character. Every now and then I notice something crazy he can do, like buster ftilt doing freaking 18 damage--on an already good ftilt (his tilts in general are great). His throws are high damaging buster or not, his edge guarding is good, his survivability is great. He just has such an underwhelming neutral with meh approaches. Reduced jab FAF and lower landing lag on fair/bair would help. I would be really interested to see Shulk's bair in action if it got some adjustments to frame data. Also, is it just me, or does anyone else think Shulk's up and down airs are two of the worst moves in the game? They make me cry.
Down air is actually pretty good after like 800 hrs put into shulk. I have learned to. use it and its one of his greatest tools.

Up air is anothee story, its one of the worst moves in the game, but because of jump monado it has to be like that. It would me a lot better with a 4 frame reduction on startup and linking both hits better.
 

Sneak Sneaks

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The conclusion I've come to reading and learning from this thread is Melee Fox is uber with exploitable weakness, SSB4 Sheik is great with no exploitable weakness. Fox is Swampert who has great type coverage all around except a weakness to grass, Sheik is like Spiritomb with no weaknesses, but ghost/dark isn't as useful as ground/water. Yes or no? I understand how Sheik isn't broken but I think super effective moves are fun so I'd rather fight a Swampert than a Spiritomb. Assuming Swampert didn't have a shine of course. But personally I don't know what makes for a healthier meta, best character = best at every gameplan or best character = best at their gameplan.
Fairies tho (Kirby?)

To be fair, @JesterJaded, 30+ Sheiks out of a 1,000+ isn't a whole helluva lot, not to mention that only the best of them rose to the top.

This kinda phenomena isn't unheard of.
No "Smooth Criminal"?
 
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AvengerV

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can somebody with a better understanding of high level smash than me analyze and breakdown how exactly @TSM ZeRo uses Diddy to dominate other Sheik players?

Is he just simply outplaying the player or is he following a strict gameplan to counterplay sheik?

Hopefully ZeRo sees this mention and just explains his strategy himself lol
Because Diddy Kong has almost just as good of a neutral game as Sheik does and outplays the Sheiks. Diddy F-Air outranges Sheik's Fair. Dtilt into grab is a true combo at most percents on Sheik. Banana is just so good. People underrate Diddy so much now just because people are overlooking ZeRo because "Oh its just ZeRo he will win anyways" but when Ranai wins with Villager a character with less results and less reps they say "Oh Villager is top 5 because of Ranai".
 
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The infancy of the community has already affected the game via patches so continuing to create claims about x character being "unfair", "op", "broken" is going to help more than hurt. Like its silly how even competitive players want more impactful characters on the meta yet throw tantrums at a character like post patch Luigi, who is now disappearing as well. If anything, we should strive for optimization and character development and how far we can push a character, excepting the reality that some will be quite stronger and weaker than others.
 

ARGHETH

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 9, 2015
Messages
1,395
People underrate Diddy so much now just because people are overlooking ZeRo because "Oh its just ZeRo he will win anyways" but when Ranai wins with Villager a character with less results and less reps they say "Oh Villager is top 5 because of Ranai".
You...do realize that the people around here who think Villager's top 5 because of Ranai (all, like, three of them) are different from the people who think that ZeRo won because he's ZeRo, right?
 
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