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Doesn't matter, look at the top tiers. His argument is supported pretty well.
Well, you're not considering the glaring design flaws that go with the characters. Falco is seemingly a zoner who can't zone (lasers are honestly the worst projectiles in the game imo...unless we're bringing up final cutter's shockwave) and little Mac is an intentionally polarized character. We all see where piss poor air game gets you in smash because of him. Toon link and link are the only two compared because they both want to play the same game, but Tink is just better at it because of his greater mobility along with, I believe, better projectiles...could be wrong on that one though. Obviously Link has his strengths over Tink, but Fox has strengths over Sheik. Does that make Fox a better character? The reason why mobility and speed is better than strength is because strength usually comes with bad frame data and isn't safe on shield or in neutral. Mobility and speed gives you safer options for pressure and more options in every situation.
). Anyways, still a bad character with bad mobility and kind of limited
Falco is def nota zoner though he's the opposite lol. His boxing game is pretty solid. I honestly think he's super underdeveloped.
With that mobility? I knew his boxing game was good back when I used him a bit, but he didn't seem to have any approach or mobility to actually use that boxing game, so I felt as if Nintendo was trying to make him some sort of zoner. Either way, he's horribly undertuned as a character.
He has side b as a approach option that you should use sparingly. He's like a Luigi to me. Luigi does have a fireball which is vastly more useful than side b, side b is still an option. And his mobility problems are kinda overrate imo. And can't you shorten up his side b uses @Ffamran
If more people started playing him, they would see that Link has some really great things to offer as a character. Sadly, people would choose Toon Link over Link only DUE to mobility without seeing the entire spectrum of what Link offers. I'd rather pick a character with a superior combo game and a larger disjoint, a throw combo and better kill moves than a character with faster (weaker) attacks that is horribly affected by Rage. I'm a Link main because I actually stick with the character, and he does get me results compared to some of the other characters I play.
There's no way Taranito is on the same level as FOW or Shaky. He might have some notable wins, but he has also had some bad losses recently and seems to be on a downward trend (too lazy to look up specifics so hopefully this doesn't come back to bite me). I am not aware of another relevant Japanese Ness.It feels like Earth and Komorikiri had a higher opinion of Ness post G3, which should speak for the skill of FOW and Shaky relative to Japan's Ness players.Exactly what do you know about Japan to make such claims?
He's just saying that Sheik doesn't show any signs of absolute dominance at the top level based on G3 results. This was during a discussion period where a lot of people were freaking out about how good Sheik was and whether or not she would kill the competitive scene in the long run (please don't start that discussion again D=).
Can Falco's sideb really be used as an approach? It doesn't have a hitbox for the last 1/3~ of its animation, and you're basically just resetting to neutral if you hit them with the first 2/3 of the move. In contrast, Luigi's tornado puts the opponent in a juggle situation.
Who's on the opposite end of the spectrum?
His endlag is actually workable unlike Luigi if the opponent shields. And Side B's use as a approach is situational of course, it's nothing to spam out a lot like a normal move. Falco's most consistent approach option is walking/dashing towards the opponent.
Wait, superior combo game?
Villager has fat hitboxes?
Disjoints in general? Yes. Look at his aerials and Lloid rocket. His space controlling with his hitboxes is absurd.
"X character is just underdeveloped" is one of the biggest excuses in the Smash community. Sure, it applies in certain situations (ie: newly added or recently bufed characters), but Link? A character who's been here since launch? A character who received major buffs a while back? Sorry, but it won't wash.
Link can convert a kill and some unique combos off Bomb hit confirms with F-Air or U-Air and N-Air respectively, Link's D-Throw can link into U-Air, U-Smash or U-Tilt, Link can string multiple U-Airs, has D-Tilt > U-Air, N-Air (dirty, late) > F-Smash off roll as a tech read at higher damages and heck, his Boomerang is also able to link into combo confirms.
He's justifiably center mid to upper mid tier at his worst and best.
Characters can be not developed, Sheik for example is way more developed than Zelda. Does that make zelda good? No, does it mean she could get better? Maybe.
it just takes a certain player to push that character forward. Everybody on this thread has basically expressed that they've "opened their eyes" to the power of toon link thanks to hyruga. Before, we were striking Toon link down with low damage output, easily powershieldable projectiles and bad disadvantage. Now, we're talking about kill confirms, all the damage he does and his bombs.
I don't doubt it, but I've seen too many users rely on "potential" in place of an actual argument.
It's different in this case. Unlike Link, Toon Link actually has results to back up claims of him being solid. Not to mention Hyuga's been doing pretty solid with TL for a while now. Nobody was paying attention.
Exactly. It makes perfect sense. "Why waste my time trying to develop the meta of an unviable mess like Zelda when I can be practicing and learning Sheik so I can win big money and bragging rights?"
Speed does beat power, but by less in this game than previous games, and less than people on this thread think in general. Toon Link's probably only one tier above Link, Mario's like a tier and a half above Doc, and Falcon's only way above Ganondorf because Ganondorf's jab, grab game, and Wizkick are defective while the first two of these for Falcon are excellent and make the character work.
One of these days a certain Link player will make his stand like Hyuga did with Toon Link. It's only a matter of time.
I highly doubt you string together uairs with link on a daily basis, if ever. With an FAF of 60? Get outta here. And that tech read situation won't work once your opponent learns to simply tech roll away from you.
LMAO if you using it to approach your asking to get a fist or a sword up in your grill or grabbed. Walking and empty jumps to help closing the distance are your best friend most of the time. You can kinda use it to kill a forward roll by sh phantasm and maybe create a landing trap which is iffy cause of the hitbox on it or run off a ledge and hit them with side b immediately so that you can combo off it with uair, nair or fair but honestly that's it and no you cannot shorten it.
Rosalina slow? Not really... Kurogane has her tied for best air acceleration and then literally average airspeed. (Also acceleration is basically +X every frame and not a % of a character's max just so we're clear.) Rosa's walk is also average but running is above average. In raw movement specs she's probably better overall then Pit! (Who makes up for it with the jumps and dash attack/grab but that's why I said raw movement specs.) I mean, hyperbole much?
Most of those characters either were always considered high tier since the WiiU launch (Pikachu, Villager, Mario), or were buffed into mid/high tier (DK, MK, Luigi). Just because some characters have had players who showed us how good a character is doesn't mean every character that's considered low tier will suddenly get high level players because you think they're awesome. TL was always considered mid mid tier to low high tier. The only other ones who said otherwise were arguing that Link was better than TL.
Who are you exactly to make that claim? What you pretty much said was "Sorry, X is not that good. You're wrong and I'm right. You must think exactly the same as everyone else here or you're a dumb outcast that makes outlandish opinions and cannot be part of the group or be taken seriously".
It's not at all ridiculous to say Link's combo game is at least almost as good as Toon Link's. Jab 1-2-smash (which is important), great utilt combos even when compared to Toon Link's (and off a throw, whereas Toon Link lacks a combo throw), same fair follow ups off bombs, etc.
What massive tail hurtbox are you talking about for Mewtwo? That's a huge myth that's been going around for a while. This isn't Melee.
Can you elaborate on this? Everything else you said makes sense, but I'm wondering how this is relevant to Lucas.
I mean, he has a point. Saying "this character is bad because they're underdeveloped" isn't a good perspective, it's just denying that a character is unviable because they may potentially be better in future. And while it's true that some characters did get better over time or move up in people's estimation, most either achieved that through patches (DK, Bowser, MK, Ike) or were already pretty good to begin with and just needed somebody to make a statement at an important event (Villager, Tink, Pit, maaaaybe Doc as a counterpick).
Since you were responding to someone who claimed Ranai doesn't get top level Ness MU experience in Japan, I thought the point you were making was that Japan did have top level Ness players. What is the point you were trying to make?Not really relevant with regards to the point I was making.
sure, its a great oos option which can kill extremely early, i forgot to mention oos options in my post but its also something which lucas doesnt shine in, and is just a great killing move in general, especially with the ladder killing at ridiculously early %s. i didnt mean the recovery aspect of it if thats what it seemed like :/ just a good oos killing option, something which makes zss more threatening than lucas
Really? You expect me to believe that?
