Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Flux0r]

Shaky and Ito are thinking similar things apparently. 20TUTU, here we come.

https://twitter.com/Shakywastaken/status/689244481845997569

 

[LancerStaff]

Is Earth a better player than Zero?

I still remember the days of Salem beating every top Metakinght left and right. No reason why other high tiers in this game cant do the same.

Not that I like to belittle Earth or anything, but he won that match because Lylat kills needles without really effecting Pit negatively, arrows included. Kind of a bread and butter stage for Pit because of said ability to screw up other projectile users.

diddy, who is still easily top 10, possibly even top 5, and definitely better than pit, im pretty sure it wouldve been a much closer game than it was with sheik, and that is exactly my point. and i never knew armada invested even a tiny bit into yoshi in melee but zero has at least said that hes invested some time into roy, although that didnt last long afaik, but thats beside the point im making, which youre just conviniently ignoring

Weeeeell, going Diddy against Pit wouldn't be smart. Especially if ZeRo isn't familiar with the matchup, and I suspect he isn't. If Pit ends up sniping Monkey Flip, Diddy's toast.

 

[warionumbah2]

Ito

hey i havent posted in a while but im probably gonna give zss or sheik a shot for a little while. i got 17th i lost to void and nairo because nairo ****ing lost to toon link lol...at least it was 3-1. when i played void it just feels hopeless though you really cant do **** and then he kills you at 100 with dthrow upair so idk i just dont think its doable. i beat zinoto zan and waymas and didnt really get to play anyone else notable but i think i did alright. i literally played like the two people i absolutely didnt want to play but thats how nationals go sometimes lol. i would still use mk for pikachu villager and ness no matter what so even if i go full top tier ill have him around. ill probably just get bored and go back to mk eventually anyways

The Sheik MU will only get worse as the game lives on, there's no legitimate tactic to make the MU closer to even like it is for ZSS,Diddy,Fox ect.. If you can't beat em join em. 2016 off to a great start.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Thanks for clearing that up, @| Big D |

Smooth Criminal

 

[FullMoon]

First Some drops Greninja for Sheik, now a whole bunch of top players are picking up ZSS or Sheik because their mains just aren't doing it.

Well look at where the character diversity is going lol.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Ito


The Sheik MU will only get worse as the game lives on, there's no legitimate tactic to make the MU closer to even like it is for ZSS,Diddy,Fox ect.. If you can't beat em join em. 2016 off to a great start.

Sheik really is only going to get worse. This is especially true for characters without reliable kill confirms on her(which her physics make her reasonably susceptible to) because in addition to her safety she's also one of the harder characters in the game to kill because her frame data and Bouncing Fish make her hard to trap and of course almost no one can gimp her, so you're stuck trying to land a kill move on her from neutral.(Good luck) Bouncing Fish + Vanish + lagless landing Fairs are simply too good for a disadvantaged state, never mind the other problems she presents.

 

[Deathcarter]

I think its pretty disingenuous to suggest that any complaints about Sheik or ZSS is tantamount to being lazy. The fact that neither completely break the game in the way Meta Knight did in Brawl and are quite beatable doesn't mean certain tools of theirs aren't blatantly over tuned, particularly Needle Storm and Flip Jump. Nintendo has clearly shown a willingness to nerf moves on less powerful characters that are perceived to be either over tuned or encouraging degenerate play:

-Luigi's fireballs and D-throw
-Captain Falcon's U-air and B-air
-Fox's jab
-Sonic's B-throw and Up Smash
-Lucario's Aura Sphere charge against Shield
-ROB's Up-throw
-Link's jab
-Little Mac's Aerial Side B
-Dedede's Gordos
-Pacman's Fire Hydrant

Does anyone seriously believe that Needle Storm and/or Flip Jump as they are would stop being overpowered and annoying to deal with if they were given to a mid/low tier like say Marth? Being able to juggle opponents with an unreactable projectile from halfway across the stage or having a get-out-of-disadvantage free card that can hard spike people at 40% is just absolutely dumb to fight against period.

 

[Antonykun]

nah son we just need to stop being lazy and learn the mu <3

Insensitive jokes aside this behavior is normal among fighting games once the patches slow down people are going to gravitate towards the better characters and seeing as sheik is a character with no real weaknesses and plenty of strengths it's safe to say top players will gravitate towards her/him

 

[Asdioh]

Right after Genesis, I think I saw someone say something like "Rosalina vs Sheik looking pretty even"
But I'm going to assume that's not the general consensus, right? Usually, when ZeRo is winning, it's because he's playing on a higher level, but it seemed pretty obvious that Dabuz was playing EXTREMELY well in grand finals, and I would argue that he seemed like the better player in that moment. However, Sheik has an easier time getting KOs, and that's what really mattered in the end. Rosalina has no bread and butter KO setup anywhere near the ease of Sheik's Dthrow->Upair, and that's why he kept losing his stocks first. It's a shame that Sheik's initial perceived weakness of "has trouble ending stocks" turned out to not be true, as I almost never saw a Sheik's opponent live past the 100-120% range. Whereas my opponents still live past 140% pretty often, even with Kirby's Upthrow buff.

 

[Deleted member]

I'd like to see ZeRo go with Link, I'd like to see him try with him. No, honestly, I'd actually like to see what ZeRo can do with Link in the tournament scene.

=================

Though talking about Link, I ask, what buffs would you guys want to see for Link to have that might make him viable? Would additional mobility, a faster U-Tilt/more damaging U-Tilt, faster F-Tilt, more powerful D-Air (in exchange for losing the meteor) or maybe even a faster throw and better throw combo game do well for him? I'd honestly sacrifice D-Air's meteor for power, and F-Tilt's power for speed.

Any opinions?

Link's major issue IMO is his lack of mobility, both on the ground and in the air.

His CQC frames need help too, considering his fastest (grounded) OoS option is a frame 8, 82 FAF commitment AKA Spin Attack, and U-Smash (10 frame startup, FAF of 78) is of a similar commitment level, meaning that more often than not he has to be rather careful and just sit in shield unless the opponent is being stupid and not spacing on shield or something, I mean he does have OoS Nair or Bair, Frame 7 and 6 respectively, but his OoS is still pretty gross IMO.

Personally I'd like to see:

• Decreased landing lag on Uair (making it easier for Link to keep Uair juggles going).
• Decreased ending frames on D-Throw, (possibly) giving Link some more options at lower percent, which would possibly take his current D-Throw -> Uair kill from a frame-perfect DI-dependent option to something that has some more consistency at higher percents.
• Increased Knockback on U-throw, it currently kills at ~160% without rage on midweight characters, ideally I'd like a slight increase, although I don't mean that I want it to become the next Mewtwo's U-Throw. I feel it'd be fair considering how difficult it is to get a grab with Link currently (not the hardest thing, but certainly not easy if the opponent isn't being stupid) and how hard Link can be punished on a whiffed grab.
• The return of Link's Day 1 IASA Frames on Jab 1, Sakurai pls. (If only people didn't find the jab lock *sigh*)
• Increased aerial speed, slightly increased ground speed (I'd lean towards increasing dash speed, if only because I feel like increased walk speed + Hylian shield would be a bit much since his walk is already pretty decent IMO).
• On the wishlist would be a faster F-tilt and U-tilt, although I feel like those would be a stretch, as well as a faster Jab 1 frame or better Jab 2 IASA/trajectory to give something that is at least slightly more similar to what Link used to be able to do out of Jab 1 (I mean, the game even says "Mix up Link's Jab Combo with a D-Smash or U-Smash after jab 2", (not verbatim quote btw), but it's all too easy for characters to shield or jump away from such cancels, his Jab 2 options are not as consistent as his Jab 1 options were.
• Tweak bombs to make them more confirm-friendly (I feel like the trajectory is inconsistent which makes confirms rather inconsistent), although not to the level of TL's confirm shenanigans.

I can't see Link's Dair being reverted to its stronger non-meteor like it was in the past.

 

[arbustopachon]

So i'm late to the conversation about Charizard, but jab, nair and u-throw are not his only good tools. In fact every single one of his moves are functional.
I mean U-smash is a frame 6 or 7 disjointed all purpose punish, B-throw is a combo starter that deals 10%, Sh retreating Fair is pretty much always safe on shield, D-throw is a combo starter that can situationally combo into perfect pivoted Bair for a kill. Dtilt and Ftilt are good for spacing and Ftilt kills.
U-tilt and U-air are disjointed antiairs that kill.
F-throw sets ups edgeguards, D-smash, flamethrower and pretty much all of his aerials work fine at edgeguarding. Not to mention that flamethrower is a decent enough shield pressure tool.
Dash attack is active for like forever and beats rolls and spotdodges, plus thanks to the recent patch is surprisingly safish went it hits late.
Fsmash and Bair are hard punishes, Rock smash and fly are combo breakers and kill moves.
Dair has a stupid hitbox and isn´t terrible, which is actually decent for a dair in this game.
His dash is short which is a blessing since his standing grab is very good while his dash grab sucks.
Sure Charizard is on the lower end of the cast and has a myriad of problems that keep him from being good, but lack of tools isn't one.
He is bad because a combination of terrible physics, wonky hurtbox, endlag and being an acrophobic dragon.
(Also he is actually pretty short when standing, what with him being around foxes height.)

 

[thehard]

I'd like to remind everyone about Thinkaman 's "it would be OK if this would happen, it would be OK if it didn't happen too" saying in regards to ANY further balance changes.

Also, M2K's Cloud will save us from the Sheik uprising.

 

[HoSmash4]

Right after Genesis, I think I saw someone say something like "Rosalina vs Sheik looking pretty even"
But I'm going to assume that's not the general consensus, right? Usually, when ZeRo is winning, it's because he's playing on a higher level, but it seemed pretty obvious that Dabuz was playing EXTREMELY well in grand finals, and I would argue that he seemed like the better player in that moment. However, Sheik has an easier time getting KOs, and that's what really mattered in the end. Rosalina has no bread and butter KO setup anywhere near the ease of Sheik's Dthrow->Upair, and that's why he kept losing his stocks first. It's a shame that Sheik's initial perceived weakness of "has trouble ending stocks" turned out to not be true, as I almost never saw a Sheik's opponent live past the 100-120% range. Whereas my opponents still live past 140% pretty often, even with Kirby's Upthrow buff.

Take this from a sheik main, Rosalina is one of the harder characters to land the downthrow '50/50' on.

 

[Tizio Random]

I agree on the fact that Sheik could be nerfed in the next patch. Adjustments to needles and vanish are mandatory just because are too good options on a character that really doesn't need them and I don't think that these changes will affect her position at all but they will make the gap between her and the other characters don't feel hopeless.
However there's a thing that bothers me regarding the "switching to Sheik or ZSS because my character is not good enough" that really bothers me. Now, I don't want to judge Ally or Ito or whoever but we have to remember that Nairo lost to Toon Link, Mr R to Diddy Kong and Fox, Marss to Villager and VoiD to Rosalina. We can obviously argue that the best player win or in Nairo's case match up knowledge but this a sign that neither Sheik or ZSS are impossible to beat at this level. Example: Dabuz didn't change his main and just pushed his characters to the point he can compete with the best players in the world. Hell, Ally even posted an image on his Twitter where he showed how many hours he played Sm4sh during December and made jokes about how much he didn't practice.

 

[L9999]

Shaky and Ito are thinking similar things apparently. 20TUTU, here we come.

https://twitter.com/Shakywastaken/status/689244481845997569

.....Damn. If it does happen, I'll miss Shaky's Ness. It was a treat to watch. NAKAT also seems to have thrown Ness to the trash. That leaves FOW. I hope he doesn't get tainted by the dark side....

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

Cloud was born by the meta to bring balance, he is the chosen one to take down the Sheiks!

 

[R3D3MON]

More then likely yeah, ZeRo would win with almost any other character because he is that good and actually learns all the things he needs to know in order to win. Just like when he steam rolled that whole Captain Falcon tournament against the "Worlds Best Falcons". Its not the character but the player that really carries in a match.

Edit: Oh and Omni's video on "Is it too late to play Melee?" everything he said also works and applies in Smash 4 not just in Melee as well.

Yeah this was really surprising to me because the last time I saw ZeRo going all-falcon for a tournament was back in the April/May NorCal regionals, and he absolutely dominated everybody. In GF, he was playing Ito's MK and game 3 ZeRo 2-stocks Ito's MK. And he was using a character that is defnitely not top tier, and is particularly susceptible to MK kill setups. The video reminded me of how much I have yet to learn about this game, and how much room for improvement I have left for the game.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Cloud was born by the meta to bring balance, he is the chosen one to take down the Sheiks!

Cloud is a broken character only kept in check by Sheik.

 

[Nu~]

Of ALL characters to replace sheik, I sure as hell wouldn't want it to be cloud.

 

[Zannabluke]

in other twitter news, abadango is asking more about beast 6 (and shots fired)

https://twitter.com/Abadangowario/status/689508323570282496

a japanese player in an european environment could be really interesting

 

[Radical Larry]

Link's major issue IMO is his lack of mobility, both on the ground and in the air.

His CQC frames need help too, considering his fastest (grounded) OoS option is a frame 8, 82 FAF commitment AKA Spin Attack, and U-Smash (10 frame startup, FAF of 78) is of a similar commitment level, meaning that more often than not he has to be rather careful and just sit in shield unless the opponent is being stupid and not spacing on shield or something, I mean he does have OoS Nair or Bair, Frame 7 and 6 respectively, but his OoS is still pretty gross IMO.

Personally I'd like to see:

• Decreased landing lag on Uair (making it easier for Link to keep Uair juggles going).
• Decreased ending frames on D-Throw, (possibly) giving Link some more options at lower percent, which would possibly take his current D-Throw -> Uair kill from a frame-perfect DI-dependent option to something that has some more consistency at higher percents.
• Increased Knockback on U-throw, it currently kills at ~160% without rage on midweight characters, ideally I'd like a slight increase, although I don't mean that I want it to become the next Mewtwo's U-Throw. I feel it'd be fair considering how difficult it is to get a grab with Link currently (not the hardest thing, but certainly not easy if the opponent isn't being stupid) and how hard Link can be punished on a whiffed grab.
• The return of Link's Day 1 IASA Frames on Jab 1, Sakurai pls. (If only people didn't find the jab lock *sigh*)
• Increased aerial speed, slightly increased ground speed (I'd lean towards increasing dash speed, if only because I feel like increased walk speed + Hylian shield would be a bit much since his walk is already pretty decent IMO).
• On the wishlist would be a faster F-tilt and U-tilt, although I feel like those would be a stretch, as well as a faster Jab 1 frame or better Jab 2 IASA/trajectory to give something that is at least slightly more similar to what Link used to be able to do out of Jab 1 (I mean, the game even says "Mix up Link's Jab Combo with a D-Smash or U-Smash after jab 2", (not verbatim quote btw), but it's all too easy for characters to shield or jump away from such cancels, his Jab 2 options are not as consistent as his Jab 1 options were.
• Tweak bombs to make them more confirm-friendly (I feel like the trajectory is inconsistent which makes confirms rather inconsistent), although not to the level of TL's confirm shenanigans.

I can't see Link's Dair being reverted to its stronger non-meteor like it was in the past.

Well it's pointless to try hitting the opponent with the meteor hitbox of Link's D-Air since it's almost impossible to hit with. If D-Air had one of three possible changes, it's that it has its old damages back, his meteor hitbox lasts about 3 frames longer or that he has extended range for D-Air.

But I really like your examples of what Link could have, and I'd like to see these tweaked too. But of course, if all of these were applied in the next patch simultaneously, as an example...by theory it would turn Link from the low point of upper middle tier to literally one of the top 15 characters.

However, one can only wait to see what may happen.

 

[S_B]

Went Dedede except for Falcon vs Pink Fresh. At the beginning of the set I was talking to him and he seemed to react when Falcon was mentioned. After a bad game 1 I switched to Falcon and it worked out. Against Nietono and Fatality I didn't think a secondary would be a good idea so I stayed.

Awesome work, BTW, man. Glad to see a D3 so far into G3.

On the other subject in this thread, when it comes to player skill vs. character capability, folks need to remember this: sometimes, we CAN look objectively at the tools a character has and say for certain that that character has a sizable advantage.

For example, Sheik is the best rushdown character in the game who also has the best projectile in the game. Watching Sheiks force other characters to approach during G3, characters with gameplay styles that revolve around forcing THEIR opponents to approach, was kind of telling and disheartening at the same time.

We don't need to sit here and theorycraft to know that this is OP and Sakurai is failing the game's balance by not fixing it, and even if Sheik had ONE solid counter, it still doesn't mean she isn't OP as **** if she continues to dunk on 90% of the cast.

We have people who went to G3 who have been maining certain characters for over a YEAR now giving up and switching to Sheik and ZSS out of frustration. Anyone telling them "Git gud" is just hoping they won't switch to Sheik and ZSS and become a real tournament threat.

 

[LancerStaff]

Cloud was born by the meta to bring balance, he is the chosen one to take down the Sheiks!

Yeah... Watch as Cloud gets nerfed into the dirt while Sheik remains untouched.

 

[S_B]

Yeah... Watch as Cloud gets nerfed into the dirt while Sheik remains untouched.

Also, Cloud beating Sheik isn't going to "save the meta" unless other characters can summon Cloud to help them fight Sheiks.

 

[Jams.]

Jams. R.O.B. kind of flopped at G3, but I can think of some good results otherwise. OCEAN actually beat Edge's Sheik, which I think is a super notable win. Though he did also recently flop vs. Rosalina (who I am surprised you didn't mention as a potentially awful matchup). 8BitMan still does well in FL, and elsewhere people like Holy and Gyo are (AFAIK) still holding it down with MrDestructoid.

ZSS annihilates R.O.B., but then I also think ZSS probably beats Ike pretty cleanly as well. I was also under the impression Peach really struggled with Sheik and Diddy (Umeki certainly does, and someone I just responded to expressed that opinion as well). Still, I think R.O.B. is much more likely to fall over time than rise. I'm still waiting for more of them to give up, though, because I think he's in a better position rep-wise than a lot of the other characters I have in the B-tiers.

I think G3 is consistent with ROB's performance at majors. 8bitman pulls a good but not amazing placing, and then one of the other high level ROB players makes it into the top 64.

OCEAN > Edge was impressive, but that's basically the only thing OCEAN (and ROB) has done in Japan in the past few months. ROB players have consistently been able to eek out wins against high level Sheiks, so the matchup should be doable, but it's certainly not in ROB's favour. I don't personally believe Rosalina is that awful because of how potent ROB's nair is in that MU (OCEAN vs Ikep demonstrates this well, and OCEAN only lost because of NFL level throws QQ). He must also have beaten Ruri to advance as first seed from that pool, considering his loss to Masashi.

8bitman and Holy seem to be struggling recently, losing to players they've usually beaten in the past. I only follow the Versus weeklies, but 8bitman seems like he's having more trouble with Xaltis, Seibrik, Dath, and MVD than he did before. Holy also dropped a set to Iceninja semi-recently (OK it was like last October >.>) and more recently has started dropping sets to SuperGirlKels and Venom. They still have good placings and breakout events, but it seems like their consistency has suffered. I don't think ROB's rep is noticeably better than the B tier characters at this point, though perhaps none of the B+ tiers have noticeably better rep.

Frustrations with Metaknight basically spawned Project M. When fans are so fed up that they spend 3 years developing and another 4.5 patching an alternate version of the same game, you know that a character has descended into new levels of BS. Sheik is no where near this level.

This is not true. Project M started as a side project to port Melee Falco into Brawl. If anything, the developers had an issue with Brawl's physics changes and mechanics changes over anything related to Metaknight's balance. There's a reason the mod was originally called Project Melee, not Project Metaknightistoobroken.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Of ALL characters to replace sheik, I sure as hell wouldn't want it to be cloud.

Considering what they'd have to do to him (which would be BUFFING HIM LOL) to make him replace her, yeah, I wouldn't want this to happen either.

Scary stuff.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

Considering what they'd have to do to him (which would be BUFFING HIM LOL) to make him replace her, yeah, I wouldn't want this to happen either.

Scary stuff.

U know I rather deal with Cloud because in cannon Sheik is among the weakest chars

 

[Emblem Lord]

Cloud is a broken character only kept in check by Sheik.

Bite your blasphemous tongue you heretic!!!

The strongest of the mako warriors and the man that defeated Sephiroth is our savior.

Our angel is the darkness.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I would wants duck hunt to be top tier.

 

[S_B]

Sheik is no where near this level.

This raises another point that needs to be made...

Sheik and ZSS don't need to be Brawl MK levels of OP to completely destroy SSB4's meta. They're doing a fine job of if right now, what with high level Ness and Mario mains finally giving up and switching to Sheik or ZSS after Genesis3.

Whether they're 20% better or 100% better than the next tier below them is irrelevant. They're going to force any player who actually wants to win high level tournaments to play as them because no one can afford to be using a character that's at a 10% disadvantage at a level where every last bit of advantage you can get counts.

Buffing them is still the better option.

Toning down 3-4 problematic characters >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trying to balance the buffs of 30+ characters.

If Sheik receives nerfs, odds are the other top tiers will as well, so I wouldn't lament Sheik's chances against them just yet because I expect them all to drop a few pegs if Sakurai ever pulls his head out of the sand and looks at aggregate tourney results.

 

[Y2Kay]

All of you are wrong bayonetta is gonna save us from sheik

 

[TTTTTsd]

This raises another point that needs to be made...

Sheik and ZSS don't need to be Brawl MK levels of OP to completely destroy SSB4's meta. They're doing a fine job of if right now, what with high level Ness and Mario mains finally giving up and switching to Sheik or ZSS after Genesis3.

Whether they're 20% better or 100% better than the next tier below them is irrelevant. They're going to force any player who actually wants to win high level tournaments to play as them because no one can afford to be using a character that's at a 10% disadvantage at a level where every last bit of advantage you can get counts.

I'm going to be that guy but if it were just a 10-20% advantage we wouldn't be in the spot we are.

10-20% as a whole sounds pretty favorable for a "best in the game" sorta deal, actually. I think we're tangibly at that noticeable 40-50% personally, but we're literally a few tweaks away from not being there, if that's at all reassuring.

 

[Nu~]

Bite your blasphemous tongue you heretic!!!

The strongest of the mako warriors and the man that defeated Sephiroth is our savior.

Our angel is the darkness.

Cloud is a false prophet!

All sword Mario brings is pain! :V

 

[PK Gaming]

People, stop trying to make sword Mario happen. It's not going to happen.

 

[S_B]

I'm going to be that guy but if it were just a 10-20% advantage we wouldn't be in the spot we are.

10-20% as a whole sounds pretty favorable for a "best in the game" sorta deal, actually. I think we're tangibly at that noticeable 40-50% personally, but we're literally a few tweaks away from not being there, if that's at all reassuring.

Yeah, I definitely think it's worse than that for most, but I just mean for the next tier behind them, with characters like Diddy, Sonic, and Ryu who have been known to take games off of S-tier characters.

It's probably even worse for them, but either way, even 10% better than the next tier back is likely 70-80% better than the bottom tiers (who will need some buffs).

 

[Nobie]

There's something interesting about the idea that X top level player can only truly compete with Zero/Nairo if they use a top tier themselves. I think it implies a couple of possibilities:

1) They believe themselves to be as good if not better than Zero or Nairo, and are held back by their character
2) Even if they're not as good or better, they need every advantage they can get, and using even a minorly "inferior" character makes things significantly more difficult

But then if Sheik/ZSS are just this much better than the rest of the cast, what would happen if the players switched characters? What if Nairo used Mario and Ally used ZSS? What if Ito used Sheik and Zero used Meta Knight? Assuming they received time to train up their new characters on both sides, would it mean that Ally or Ito could reliably beat them?

Edit: One more thing.

Theory: With a roster this gigantic, characters that can fight more safely and more reliably in unfamiliar matchups will have an edge in large tournaments. Some can overcome this with sheer knowledge, but given that a player as skilled and as traveled as Nairo had never fought a Toon Link on a level comparable with Hyuga says a lot.

 

[Nu~]

People, stop trying to make sword Mario happen. It's not going to happen.

My intention isn't to spread the phrase. My intention is to describe how "ez-mode" the character is for high reward in return.

Of course, a big difference is that cloud kills at 60 and Mario fishes for usmash at 120

 

[~ Gheb ~]

in other twitter news, abadango is asking more about beast 6 (and shots fired)

https://twitter.com/Abadangowario/status/689508323570282496

a japanese player in an european environment could be really interesting

Abadango has attended a french tournament before where he got 2nd to Mr r. Though Beast will definitely have the stronger competition.

 

[Yikarur]

People, stop trying to make sword Mario happen. It's not going to happen.

You're kinda right. Sword-Mario is even easier than Mario. But it's a good analogy 8)

Everyone can just pick Sword-Mario up and play on a decent level immediately. his damage output, his frame data, his mobility, his fast disjointed hitboxes.
It's no effort - high reward in it's purest form.

 

[|RK|]

There's something interesting about the idea that X top level player can only truly compete with Zero/Nairo if they use a top tier themselves. I think it implies a couple of possibilities:

1) They believe themselves to be as good if not better than Zero or Nairo, and are held back by their character
2) Even if they're not as good or better, they need every advantage they can get, and using even a minorly "inferior" character makes things significantly more difficult

But then if Sheik/ZSS are just this much better than the rest of the cast, what would happen if the players switched characters? What if Nairo used Mario and Ally used ZSS? What if Ito used Sheik and Zero used Meta Knight? Assuming they received time to train up their new characters on both sides, would it mean that Ally or Ito could reliably beat them?

Edit: One more thing.

Theory: With a roster this gigantic, characters that can fight more safely and more reliably in unfamiliar matchups will have an edge in large tournaments. Some can overcome this with sheer knowledge, but given that a player as skilled and as traveled as Nairo had never fought a Toon Link on a level comparable with Hyuga says a lot.

I don't think Ally - or any of those other players - will hit ZeRo/Nairo/Dabuz/Ranai level regardless of character choice. But we'll see.