Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

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LancerStaff

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Sheik's good but people (players) are lazy, ignorant and just choose to complain rather than learn what their options are majority of the time and that is a poor mindset in competitive play that happens very often

its much easier to come in an online forum and complain and write long posts of why sheik is here or there than simply sit down and learn your options in every scenario

its disappointing
Bah, quit complaining about the complaining. Patches are going to stop in a few months anyway.

This is from Fox's Melee trophy. Take that how you will but I think some characters are more designed around 1 vs. 1 more than others.
Actually Fox is supposed to spam lasers and then out-CQC the poor soul that decides to approach in FFAs, and he's still built like that in SSB4. Although Melee Fox, being Melee Fox, he can do about anything he wants and still come out on top.
 
D

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I feel like Zelda should be higher than Charizard and Ganon just for the sole fact that she gets more results.
A Zard main at BH5 named Shadow was a place away from reaching Top 32. Zard's results are still bad overall, but just putting that out there.
 

ARISTOS

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Smash calculus, makes just as much sense as the game itself.

Also how the hell does Greninja have a +2 on Peach.
I find this MU to be awful to play. Unfamilarity may be playing a part, but I've been finding it very difficult to play against this character, though -2 is probably an exaggeration.

  • Greninja's high mobility makes him difficult to catch for Peach
  • Made doubly hard because Shurikens make approaching difficult
  • Greninja kills Peach relatively early
  • Peach has great pressure on Greninja's shield, but again, high mobility makes forcing this pressure difficult
  • Greninja's SH Nair is good at stopping floated aerials and also leads to damaging strings
  • If caught w/o float, you are likely dead (although, this is common in Peach MUs)
I'll be rethinking and revising things into tomorrow, it's late on the EC.
 

Ffamran

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I'll be dipped in garlic butter. He didn't use D3? I stand corrected then.

And what part do you disagree on, @Seagull Joe?

Smooth Criminal
Aww, isn't garlic butter tasty? Now, I'm hungry and it's in the middle of the night. :p

It wasn't until Seagull mentioned it that I remembered that Big D played other characters on the side. A quick search had him use Captain Falcon and Mario in recent tournaments alongside his Triple D. Also, I think he played as Falco once for whatever reason and maybe Ryu? Felt like I've seen his name recently with Ryu or maybe it was someone else. Well, regardless, it's kind of up to people now. If Big D made it through with Captain Falcon and Triple D, that's kind of okay. Now, if it was say, 70% the Capt. and 30% Triple D, maybe people won't be as impressed. The flipside, however, would really impress people kind of like how DKWill tends to stick to DK until he really, really feels like DK won't be enough, so he'll switch to Sheik.
 
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Smooth Criminal

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I mean, that's fine if he did do something like that. Kind of what I'm doing with Cloud right now tbh. I just feel bad for not taking another look at the results/characters used; I just assumed, lol.

I'm really curious as to what Joe was disagreeing on, though.

Smooth Criminal
 

Jucchan

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Djent Djent - Duck hunt in B- tier? You say he's "Borderline Viable" based on what the explanations say, yet Duck Hunt has glaring issues, almost no representation, and no results outside of MVD back at APEX.
Brood getting Top 12 at Umebura Tokaigi Qualifiers (~300 entrants), Yusan getting Top 16 at Sumabato Tokaigi Qualifiers (~270 entrants) and Top 8 at Sumabato 6 (~200 entrants).
 

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A Zard main at BH5 named Shadow was a place away from reaching Top 32. Zard's results are still bad overall, but just putting that out there.
Yes but that's really it. Bloodcross dropped her and the only one left is Draquaza.

While Zelda has ven who made it out of part one of G3 pools and is PR'd in NV. Zylach who is PR'd in WI. Zolda who has recently won WI tournaments. Then there's Ed/Purple Guy who's PR'd with Zelda and gets many top 8 FL results. For you all that didn't know, Ed/Purple Guy offcially moved Zelda to main and Sheik to secondary so in the recent tournaments. He's either gone solo-Zelda or Zelda majority of the tournament.
 

Djent

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Djent Djent - Duck hunt in B- tier? You say he's "Borderline Viable" based on what the explanations say, yet Duck Hunt has glaring issues, almost no representation, and no results outside of MVD back at APEX.

I also don't think Puff is the worst character. Yes, she's awful, but there are characters who are even more awful. Jigglypuff has great edgeguarding, even in a game where half the cast gets back for free, a great recovery, and solid aerials.

Mac above Doc, Falco, Kirby, Roy, and Shulk also seems very strange.

The list looks really solid otherwise.
Duck Hunt has Brood and Yusan, both of whom have placed high at recent Japanese regionals/majors. This is one character who I think should be doing worse than he is by now, and yet those two continue to pull of some really impressive stuff with him.

Hey, it looks like I got ninja'd by Jucchan Jucchan .


Good list though. I'm surpirsed by your Falcon/Luigi placing though, IMO those two are better placed in B as all the characters in B+ seem to have better MUs with the top characters.
I wasn't quite bold enough to put them that low. Luigi at least has the benefit of doing pretty well vs. Fox, Mario, and Pikachu. And as bad as people say the Sheik matchup is, we still see stuff like ConCon > Vinnie. As for Falcon, he (probably) does well against Rosa, but even so you might be right. He was on the end of that row for a reason.

I feel like Zelda should be higher than Charizard and Ganon just for the sole fact that she gets more results.
I was originally going to ask for clarification, but I see you've already answered my question since I started writing. I knew about Ven, and I knew Ed played Zelda but didn't know he had made the switch. I'll have to look up the other two because I admit I am not familar with either. With Charizard having very little in the way of good representation (AFAIK) I can understand why you'd think that, and I may yet come around. As far as Ganon goes, I hesitate to place her higher when Pon actually beats some pretty good people (like Salena, who just finished 33rd at Genesis).

Djent Djent
I'm curious about your placements of Robin, Kirby and Duck Hunt
For Duck Hunt, see my response to TDK.

Robin's buffs were significant, and people like Dath and Mr. II perform respectably well with him/her. I'm still worried about this character's viability in the long term, though. Do you think I should have ranked Robin higher or lower?

EDIT: ****, I forgot Kirby. Uhh he seems kind of limited, though I mostly placed him that low by process of elimination (i.e. the chars I ranked above him seemed more threatening). Do people still think he does well against Sheik? My impression from Vinnie is that he had mostly figured that match out by now, but if you know anything to the contrary I'd be interested to hear it.
 
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D

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On the topic of Robin, he also has Mr. Johan Mr. Johan who's ranked #1 on his state PR. He also goes to Shockwaves but I'm unsure of how well he usually places.
 

AvengerV

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Yes but that's really it. Bloodcross dropped her and the only one left is Draquaza.

While Zelda has ven who made it out of part one of G3 pools and is PR'd in NV. Zylach who is PR'd in WI. Zolda who has recently won WI tournaments. Then there's Ed/Purple Guy who's PR'd with Zelda and gets many top 8 FL results. For you all that didn't know, Ed/Purple Guy offcially moved Zelda to main and Sheik to secondary so in the recent tournaments. He's either gone solo-Zelda or Zelda majority of the tournament.
Not true, I was at Versus last week and when he got sent to loser by my friend he went Sheik the whole way through and won. Sheik is definitely Ed's main.
 
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HeavyLobster

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Yes but that's really it. Bloodcross dropped her and the only one left is Draquaza.

While Zelda has ven who made it out of part one of G3 pools and is PR'd in NV. Zylach who is PR'd in WI. Zolda who has recently won WI tournaments. Then there's Ed/Purple Guy who's PR'd with Zelda and gets many top 8 FL results. For you all that didn't know, Ed/Purple Guy offcially moved Zelda to main and Sheik to secondary so in the recent tournaments. He's either gone solo-Zelda or Zelda majority of the tournament.
Ganon has GanontheBeast PR'd #1 in Minnesota as well as Kalm who's gotten top 8 in multiple sizeable Canadian tourneys. Vermanubis also has had some pretty good results. None of them have really shown up to major US tourneys though, as I mentioned a couple pages back. Also Pon was mentioned above in Japan. Whether Zard has quality representation or not his tools are still better than Zelda's, so I will lose no sleep putting him ahead of her.
 

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So is Villager/TLink gonna gain the same traction that Meta Knight did now or nah? What do you guys think?
 

Ffamran

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I feel like Zelda should be higher than Charizard and Ganon just for the sole fact that she gets more results.
Macchi, Charizard I can give you, but not Ganondorf. The Dorfinator has from the top of my head adom4, Ganon the Beast, Gungnir, Pon? - does Pon participate in tournaments in Japan? -, Ray Kalm, and Vermanubis pulling in results. One of them is even PRed #1, Ganon the Beast. Admittedly, Minnesota is derpy when it comes to character usage compared to other regions, but still. A2ZOMG, Blobface, or someone else could probably give you the full details. (Which is getting there since I type too slow. :p)

The problem with Charizard, Falco, Ganondorf, Samus, and Zelda is they can perform well in locals, but they usually if not almost always fall apart in majors. In locals, Falco's been known for sporadically placing high like in Colorado (Eshura who also uses Pit), Michigan (Ally once, Daybreak, and Nom for a time being), Nebraska (Gamegenie who also uses Robin and Roy among other characters), Nevada if you count FOW's counter-picking with him, and South Dakota (Bravo). Then you look at majors and Falco performs like he's a bottom tier. Usually, he, Charizard, Ganondorf, Samus, and Zelda tend to drown in pools. The highest he's gotten at an international major was 68th at EVO through Keitaro. In Genesis? Keitaro made it into pools 2 and drowned there.

Not true, I was at Versus last week and when he got sent to loser by my friend he went Sheik the whole way through and won. Sheik is definitely Ed's main.
Doesn't Ed/Purple Guy only use Zelda for the low tiers tournament Versus sometimes hosts? I should have quoted Macchi, but whatever.
 
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AvengerV

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So is Villager/TLink gonna gain the same traction that Meta Knight did now or nah? What do you guys think?
nah
Macchi, Charizard I can give you, but not Ganondorf. The Dorfinator has from the top of my head adom4, Ganon the Beast, Gungnir, Pon? - does Pon participate in tournaments in Japan? -, Ray Kalm, and Vermanubis pulling in results. One of them is even PRed #1, Ganon the Beast. Admittedly, Minnesota is derpy when it comes to character usage compared to other regions, but still. A2ZOMG, Blobface, or someone else could probably give you the full details. (Which is getting there since I type too slow. :p)

The problem with Charizard, Falco, Ganondorf, Samus, and Zelda is they can perform well in locals, but they usually if not almost always fall apart in majors. In locals, Falco's been known for sporadically placing high like in Colorado (Eshura), Michigan (Ally once, Daybreak, and Nom for a time being), Nebraska (Gamegenie who also uses Robin and Roy among other characters), Nevada if you count FOW's counter-picking with him, and South Dakota (Bravo). Then you look at majors and Falco performs like he's a bottom tier. Usually, he, Charizard, Ganondorf, Samus, and Zelda tend to drown in pools. The highest he's gotten at an international major was 68th at EVO through Keitaro. In Genesis? Keitaro made it into pools 2 and drowned there.


Doesn't Ed/Purple Guy only use Zelda for the low tiers tournament Versus sometimes hosts?
Ed uses Zelda when he thinks he will win or in the low tier tournaments. Last week every top player besides him was absent due to Genesis 3 so he probably thought Zelda would stand more of a chance since he was the best player by far there, however he lost round 1 to my friend but still managed to win the whole tournament with his amazing Sheik.
 

Mr. Johan

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On the topic of Robin, he also has Mr. Johan Mr. Johan who's ranked #1 on his state PR. He also goes to Shockwaves but I'm unsure of how well he usually places.
Only been to one Shockwave three weeks back, and got 9th out of 95. Had the unfortunate double whammy of facing Denti and then IiGgy, but bygones. I did take the Wichita 1K that following weekend though.

I intend to attend the Arkansas monthly this coming Saturday, TGC6 two weeks after that, and Super Bit Wars will be right around the corner for me on Feb. 20, so with any luck Robin will be back on the map in the Southwest soon.

As for other Robin players, @Raziek regularly wins his region's tournaments, who also attended Genesis and just barely missed getting out of pools, and everyone in the UK loves @Matsushi , so there are a few people here and there.
 
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Jams.

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S :4sheik:
A+ :4zss::rosalina::4diddy:
A :4sonic::4ryu::4metaknight::4fox:
A- :4mario::4ness::4villager::4pikachu:
B+ :4pit::4darkpit::4wario::4tlink::4rob::4luigi::4falcon:
B :4peach::4myfriends::4greninja::4yoshi::4pacman::4lucario::4wiifit:
B- :4gaw::4megaman::4olimar::4dk::4duckhunt:
C+ :4mewtwo::4bowser::4bowserjr::4robinf::4lucas:
C :4link::4marth::4lucina::4palutena::4dedede::4littlemac::4samus:
C- :4drmario::4falco::4kirby::4feroy::4shulk::4ganondorf::4charizard:
D :4zelda::4jigglypuff:
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ :4cloud::4miibrawl::4miigun::4miisword:
This is a great list which I feel you put a lot of thought towards and have solid justification for all of the top spots. I'll inquire a bit about my main though. Hopefully he's high enough up that you feel strongly about his position. =P

What makes :4rob: B+ tier, or, to reword the question, what makes him better than B tier? He has a pretty poor spread against A and S tier, with maybe Ness as possibly advantageous and Ryu and Sonic as possibly even (SaSSy thinks Villager is even too, but I have no experience in that MU so I won't comment further). On the other hand, ZSS clearly annihilates this character. I personally believe his overall spread is inferior to Peach and Ike, at the very least.

Moreover, his representation certainly does not elevate him above B tier. Ike has had better representation at NA majors for the past few months, and has only recently struggled at G3. Likewise, Peach has had comparable results, and greatly outperformed ROB at G3. His international representation is really nothing to write home about either. EU does have at least two very solid ROB players, but LoNg0uw has a Sheik secondary for tough MUs, and Spain is a wildcard region that is difficult to measure the skill of. Japanese ROBs have been floundering recently, not much more to say there.

In summary, why do you believe that ROB is superior to the characters you placed in B tier?
Sorry for the wall of text. =X
 

DblCrest

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Ah in that case it's pretty understandable. We're yet to see someone suddenly pull out Kirby to take a game off one of the higher characters. XD
I think @Asdioh may be better suited for giving his thoughts on how Kirby measures up these days.His most recent patches really helped him giving him a good Upthrow buff and his slight increase in run speed for example

Usually in comparing lower tier characters I usually see him above Samus and Palutena though it's a bit mixed with Little Mac due to how easily the two can beat the crap out of each other. He can handle Wii fit trainer pretty well apparently but I'm yet to see a match between the two at high level Though there's some silly things such as being able to duck her grab, Fsmash and even her charged special.

I got nothing on his high tier match ups. I think saying Kirby vs sheik being even is a bit too optimistic . But he doesn't do too bad against ZSS despite dying at 78-80% Boost kicks. Might be his size that helps (and kills) him I guess.
 

williamsga555

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Had no idea Big D had a Falcon. Knew about his Mario and Bowser though.

Ah well, it's good stuff to him regardless. I can still cling to his set against Nietono for my cycle of optimism around D3, even with the loss. Back to work we gooooo.
 

Djent

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Jams. Jams. R.O.B. kind of flopped at G3, but I can think of some good results otherwise. OCEAN actually beat Edge's Sheik, which I think is a super notable win. Though he did also recently flop vs. Rosalina (who I am surprised you didn't mention as a potentially awful matchup). 8BitMan still does well in FL, and elsewhere people like Holy and Gyo are (AFAIK) still holding it down with MrDestructoid.

ZSS annihilates R.O.B., but then I also think ZSS probably beats Ike pretty cleanly as well. I was also under the impression Peach really struggled with Sheik and Diddy (Umeki certainly does, and someone I just responded to expressed that opinion as well). Still, I think R.O.B. is much more likely to fall over time than rise. I'm still waiting for more of them to give up, though, because I think he's in a better position rep-wise than a lot of the other characters I have in the B-tiers.
 
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Teshie U

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On the subject of Robin. The highest placing user was actually placed 33rd and got 1st seed in round 1 pools.

The character is still kind of exploitable, but after the thunder/grab buff and the added wiggle to elwind, this character is not to be slept on.

Its like Ganon actually using his sword and you also have to approach him, its quite a pain.
 
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LancerStaff

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On the subject of Robin. The highest placing user was actually placed 33rd and got 1st seed in round 1 pools.

The character is still kind of exploitable, but after the thunder/grab buff and the added wiggle to elwind, this character is not to be slept on.

Its like Ganon actually using his sword and you also have to approach him, its quite a pain.
Then you go Pit/Sheik/Fox? and he falls to pieces. :lol:
 

Fatmanonice

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Sheik's good but people (players) are lazy, ignorant and just choose to complain rather than learn what their options are majority of the time and that is a poor mindset in competitive play that happens very often

its much easier to come in an online forum and complain and write long posts of why sheik is here or there than simply sit down and learn your options in every scenario

its disappointing
This post is almost word for word what M2K used to say all the time about Metaknight in Brawl. When you're on top, you kind of lose perspective on this sort of thing. I could into a tiresome, philosophical spiel (and probably will) about this but there are more factors to being the best than just skill and match up knowledge.After all, it's easier to dig with a shovel in mud than a spoon in rock. It's like the common insult that poor people are poor "because they're lazy" but this reasoning is lazy itself because there are a myriad of reasons that determine social class. In this same vein, there are a lot of factors that determine the top players too: character picks, money to actually travel, social connections and who you regularly practice against, accessibility to tournaments, lack of responsibilities outside of competitive gaming (probably not a lot of top players with real 9-5's, kids, a house to maintain, etc), social class of your family (or what I like to refer to as the Bill Gates/Mark Zuckerburg Springboard Effect), matchup knowledge and the connections to actually practice against a wide variety of match ups, how enthusiastic and supportive the people around you actually are about the game you play, etc. This being said, "you're not trying hard enough" kind of dumbs down the situation a little too much when top players criticize people who, at best, may be lucky to ever go to a tournament that isn't in someone's basement or at a local gameshop.
 

Fatmanonice

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What if... Sheik gets banned from tourneys?
Not going to happen. If Metaknight was allowed to dominate Brawl like he did for roughly 6 years, it won't happen with Sheik's. She's definitely the best character in the game but she's far less threatening to the future of Smash 4 then Metaknight was to Brawl. Frustrations with Metaknight basically spawned Project M. When fans are so fed up that they spend 3 years developing and another 4.5 patching an alternate version of the same game, you know that a character has descended into new levels of BS. Sheik is no where near this level.
 

Locke 06

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That's the thing though is that people don't know how to figure things out or even identify why they're losing.

- When does jab1>jab2 send you in the air so you can't shield dtilt/ftilt mixups?
- At what % is dthrow>up air true with various DI? What if dthrow is stale? When does this kill on town and city?
- When does fthrow>BF stop being true at what %?

And once you know these, here are some follow-ups.

-If you have a frame disadvantage when jab2 hits, what are your options vs dash grab (because dash grab is likely the more rewarding option).
- At %'s where dthrow up air is not true, can you punish or trade with up air? (Mario DAir/Diddy FAir)
- How do you punish a missed bouncing fish at %'s where it doesn't combo?

You don't need a top level Sheik to find the answer to these questions. But they will help you beat a top level Sheik.

It's one thing to understand basic rules of matchups (don't go offstage vs Villager, don't be too scared of getting grabbed by Fox at high %), but it's another to understand the nitty gritty of every situation. Yes, these things are hard to find and learn, but if you want to find a counterplay, you should want to know your situation at least as much as your opponent. Instead of whining about Brawl mach tornadoes, IC's found that they could pivot grab it. Instead of whining about Melee Sheik tech chase throws, people found you could SDI out.

To me, this is the point of ZeRo's post. If you're not seeking the answers to the things that are making you lose, you're not trying hard enough. And admitting that you could try harder is not a bad thing.
 

Fatmanonice

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I feel like if Sheik doesnt get nerfed, it would either be ban Sheik or be Sheik to win a tourney
I think Sheik is more comparable to Melee Fox than Brawl Metaknight. With Brawl, the whole metagame was pretty much focused on how to beat Metaknight because Metaknight was almost everyone's worst matchup. This game's different. If anything, this game is a trinity of Sheik, ZSS, and Rosalina. They pretty much are the ones that determine a good portion of the cast's viability. Do okay against at least two, you're pretty much viable. Get knocked around by all three and you better hope a patch helps you in the future or something significant is discovered with your character down the line.
 
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FimPhym

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Hearing that big D used mostly falcon is an odd mix of disappointing and relieving. I wanted to see someone win the zss dedede match up in tournament, because can you really go a whole major without finding even one? And how the hell do you win? The relief though is that my world makes sense again.

I'm excited to see the patch in February because there are two opposing trends going on for dedede. On the one hand, he got nerfed in 1.0.4 and saw nothing since which suggests they are okay with where he is. On the other hand every other super-heavy in the game been systematically buffed. Charizard, DK and bowser all got way stronger combo and kill options off grab. As far as the super heavies go, the dev team has done a great job of making their grab rewards more in line with "grappler" as opposed to "way worse than rush down characters with projectiles and ridiculous frame data". Except dedede.

This is gonna be one the last patches, so maybe it's dedede's turn for the VIP buff treatment?

They... They wouldn't forget dedede right?

He probably isn't already perfect ;_;
 
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Cassio

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Zero could've expressed things better but he has an important point to make.

A year ago I called zero the only true top level wii u player and a lot of people and other good players gave me a lot of hate for it. But zero proceeded to DOMINATE competitions for a long time. Part of the reason I knew is bc I would be at his place constantly and it was clear the effort he put in was significantly more then anyone else, like it's not even possible to do it justice without seeing it yourself. Maybe I had context bc ive been around other strong players from brawl to compare it to and even that wasn't close. But people were upset the same way many ppl in here are upset by his comments.

Since then a few others have caught up and been putting serious time into the game but probably not nearly as many as you guys think. ( can't speak for the Japanese), at least not to the level I'm describing. For instance ally is notoriously lazy about practicing and even brags about it, but will still complain about mario limiting him. Whereas someone like void has moved across the country to live with the best player and is 1st or 2nd in innovating for sheik as a character (doesn't cover everything just to demonstrate his ambition ). You have to realize too that results have diminishing returns. The difference between the average 8th place and 1st is probably at least as big as the gap between 32nd and 8th.

Now this doesn't have to do with sheik as a character per say, but many people predicate their arguments on results without realizing the context of those results. Some of these players can literally be described as being in their own class. So when ppl use zeros results without a true appreciation for the work it's understandable he'd be upset.

Late edit:Btw keep in mind the "top" sheiks that didn't show up in results. K9? Vinnie? Some of the best sheiks after void. These guys don't exactly suck and from a glance this is arbitrarily ignored as people talk of sheik dominance in results.
 
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HoSmash4

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Not going to happen. If Metaknight was allowed to dominate Brawl like he did for roughly 6 years, it won't happen with Sheik's. She's definitely the best character in the game but she's far less threatening to the future of Smash 4 then Metaknight was to Brawl. Frustrations with Metaknight basically spawned Project M. When fans are so fed up that they spend 3 years developing and another 4.5 patching an alternate version of the same game, you know that a character has descended into new levels of BS. Sheik is no where near this level.
Then why the **** are people complaining? The options are 'git gud' or just complain because its easier to do. You get 2 sheiks in top 8. Thats deserving of a sheik nerf? We truely are spoiled. Before you say I'm being rude by saying 'git gud', do you dedicate as much time into your character as Void or zero? If the answer is no, then... You're not working hard enough.

I also hate that we are in a generation where people complain about the character rather than complementing a person's amazing play.

As Zero has said, he DOMINATES every sheik when he uses Diddy. Just look at how he obliterates Ramin, Cacogen and Void and Vinnie. What Diddys make top 16 on the regular at nationals? Maybe MVD. It's players kill.

People overlook the fact that ranai lived to ridiculous prevents because sheiks killing options aren't just a brain dead 5050.

It makes my brain and faith in the smash community hurt when Zero says the right information and people are disregarding it.
 
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FimPhym

Smash Cadet
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This thread is in dire need of an understanding of the difference between the player and designer mind set.

When someone posts that maybe sheik should have such and such nerf, and some other character should receive a buff, they are talking about game design. As a designer this stuff all makes sense and is not a bad attitude or lazy or whatever.

As a player, all this patch stuff is irrelevant. You play the character that gives you personally the best chance at winning, and do everything within your power to make that work.

So someone making a post about balance doesn't mean that as a player they are not trying hard. Turns out its easy to write a forum post about the game's balance while also trying to learn all the options, despite zero's false dichotomy to the contrary. And hearing the heroic efforts that top players go to to win (as they do in every game!) doesn't mean designers need to keep their hands off.

Players should adapt, not expect anything to change, and learn match ups and options as best they can. But when you come to this thread making a post from the view point of a designer, you can bet the correct answer is not "eh, just learn the game". Sure, it's not like anyone here will ever change the game's design with their speculation but it's a fun enough discussion and encourages people to share their knowledge.

These are two pursuits a single player can undergo simultaneously. Misunderstanding that is about 110% of the arguing around zero's post.

Those saying "work harder to win more" are correct.

Those saying "sheik could use a nerf" are also correct and I would hope obviously not trying to degrade the incredible work top players put in to getting the results they get.
 
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Cassio

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 1, 2011
Messages
3,185
No, it's not separate when people who rely so much on results of these players to make "designer" suggestions. In that case you can't separate the two and zeros post is relevant. Aside from what was discussed already, I can see this is a problem bc of where ppl are placing Rosalina compared to a couple months ago. What if dabuz fell out of top 8 which is a real possibility? There's probably people here with understanding of such context but it's not most of the posts I saw.
 
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Monete

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 19, 2016
Messages
39
Location
Basque Country
Hello, first post but i have read all your posts for over a year
Reportedly SaSSy beat Izaw 2-0 and Izaw claimed he didn't know the R.O.B. matchup, which wouldn't surprise me since the only R.O.B. in Europe is an inactive one (ccst).
There is a very good R.O.B. player in Spain called Robo-Luigi. He usually wins tourneys is power-ranked 3rd in Spain and has wins over Greward who is the best here (Mega man) who only lost to Mr R in Dat Blast zone 7 and beat Istudying, Ixis, Deimo, J.Miller...
You can check him in BEAST 6

Pd sorry for my English mistakes
 

~ Gheb ~

Life is just a party
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Messages
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> There was only one solo Sheik in the top 8 of G3.
> Every top level Sheik main was there except Edge and Shu from Japan.
> None of the top level Sheik players were taken out by another Sheik.

vs.

> Two solo ZSS players in top 8
> One of those ZSS playes was taken out by the other ZSS player
> A top 3 ZSS player was absent

In no way do G3 results prove that Sheik is massively overtuned to the point where no character can keep up. She's not disproportiately stronger than next best character or everybody else. She still has a slightly negative tournament record against Sonic and an even one against Diddy Kong too.

If you want to increase the balance of Smash 4 you could probably argue that a few minor tweaks on her problematic moves are justified. Dthrow angle / cooldown, fair hitbox, bouncing fish frame data, needle storm ... but take it one bit too far and the character may very well fall apart. Anybody remember what happened to Greninja? To this day, even after receiving numerous buffs since, the character has not recovered from having had no more than two tweaks on moves that were perceived as problematic. But really, as things stand Sheik's strength has not proven to be a major factor of imblanace compared to the incompetence of the weaker characters. Buffing them is still the better option.

:059:
 

Cassio

Smash Master
Joined
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Messages
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Half baked idea from a designer perspective but I think sheik could use some nerfs on things that trouble the weaker characters. Ex: needle storm might not be broken against good characters with tools and wouldn't change the MU much, but might help out some weaker characters if weakened a bit.
 
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HoSmash4

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 24, 2015
Messages
688
Half baked idea from a designer perspective but I think sheik could use some nerfs on things that trouble the weaker characters. Ex: needle storm might not be broken against good characters with tools and wouldn't change the MU much, but might help out some weaker characters if weakened a bit.
it's just funny when some people still think Di away and jump is a legit solution and they just want nerfs.
 
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Xeze

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The only minor tweak Sheik needs, imo, is her recovery. For instance, removing the invincibility at the start of Vanish would allow players to challenge her offstage. Everything else is fine honestly.
 
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