Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Djent]

That's what I was thinking. Also, do you think the humongous crowd and big atmosphere effect their play? I have never seen Japan major as big as gen. Not to mention, it's the first time for most of them playing people from the USA.

I was really hoping for them to do really well so American smashers would take the outside world more seriously, I'm kinda disappointed that despite Ranai getting third people have still found a way to diss Japaneese players' skill. I hope they can come back here and display their talent here.

Eh, I kind of don't like the "nerves" excuse. VoiD had every reason to be as nervous as any of them, perhaps more since he's fairly new to the scene, and he still managed to finish 4th.

People have been looking for reasons to write off foreign competition for a long time, so it's no surprise that they find trivial failures to latch on to while missing the bigger picture.

 

[TDK]

Here we go with more complaints (like after every major lol)

Did no one see the set where I played Mr R with Diddy Kong and won at G3? Or maybe any other tournament where I beat a top level Sheik in a solid fashion effectively avoiding down throw setups, needles and edgeguards and like everything LOL with Diddy Kong (a bad match up too btw, it's not a close one like rosa sheik or sheik mario etc)

Am I to assume this is an answer to all the "Nerf Sheik!' complaints?

 

[TSM ZeRo]

Okay, great.

Still doesn't take away from the fact that Sheik is still good, bud.

Smooth Criminal

Sheik's good but people (players) are lazy, ignorant and just choose to complain rather than learn what their options are majority of the time and that is a poor mindset in competitive play that happens very often

its much easier to come in an online forum and complain and write long posts of why sheik is here or there than simply sit down and learn your options in every scenario

its disappointing

 

[verbatim]

No, the source of Sheik's disproportionate strength lies entirely in the d-throw uair 50/50. It allows her to subvert her ordinary kill option weakness that is otherwise prevalent throughout her design, all at the hands of her terrific grab game. It's exactly the same as pre-patch Diddy, but only half as much of a problem. (Literally and figuratively.).

Ultra late but IMO this is one of the best aspects of Sheik's character design. For the "best character", she's someone you can't randomly pick up and start crushing with because you need serious fighting game fundamentals to be able to consistently hit the 50/50 at the high level. This is confounded by the fact that if you mess it up too many times it stops working.

IMO we should focus on archetypes when talking about characters. Sheik is a ninja, she has incredible stage control and many ways to put other characters off balance and punish them for mistakes. The drawback to this is her disadvantage state. Sheik is a fast-faller, light, and one without a great combo breaker, if you get in on Sheik you can capitalize hard.

My main issue with Sheik is her offstage game. Edgeguarding people (needles, fair, bair, needles --> bouncing fish, dtilt the two frame->uair ->follow up) goes with the archetype, but IMO her disadvantage state offstage shouldn't be nonexistent.

Vanish grants intangibility to Sheik 17 frames before she actually teleports, and it's reach means that stealing her jump often results in no death the way it does for most characters. IMO Vanish shouldn't grant random intangibility so characters can go down there and spike her and Vanish's teleport distance after the original leap should be slightly less. These are kind of drastic, but I think they're of such importance that it'd be more than fair to give Sheik new buffs to trade off.

Crazy Ideas

• Vanish doesn't have intangibility frames before she disappears.
• Vanish's original explosion does more damage, killing earlier.
• Vanish doesn't send Sheik as far after the first explosion.

Here we go with more complaints (like after every major lol)

Did no one see the set where I played Mr R with Diddy Kong and won at G3? Or maybe any other tournament where I beat a top level Sheik in a solid fashion effectively avoiding down throw setups, needles and edgeguards and like everything LOL with Diddy Kong (a bad match up too btw, it's not a close one like rosa sheik or sheik mario etc)

I think there's a difference between addressing issues with character design, calling a character broken (none really are, maybe with customs on), and bug fixes.

Luigi is a pretty good example of addressing character design issues, and Greninja is a good example of bug fixes. Both characters got worse as a result, but in the later's case it wasn't necessarily an intended consequence. 1.1.3 broke a very long tradition of Pacman getting a bug fix every single patch, people don't really pay much attention to it since most of them haven't changed the way the character plays competitively, for better or for worse.

To that end, I think there's a big difference between someone who gets upset because they lost to a character in a tournament, and someone who has a specific issue with a character, i.e., taking issue with Vanish's random intangibility. You can think that an aspect of a character is weird without thinking that they're broken.

 

[AnEventHorizon]

Did anyone else lose hope in Link after watching Genesis? Izaw was supposedly the best Link there and he didn't make it out of round 2 pools, losing to a R.O.B. from Austin. When he played Heero on stream, Link looked hopeless in that matchup. Or, Izaw isn't as good as he's made out to be (the Link players in the chat gave him hell). Scizor outplaced him but he didn't make it out of pools either.

It's disappointing that even though the Smash 4 iteration of Link is arguably the strongest, he still loses to the same characters for the same reasons, the biggest of those being that he's just too slow. Any character that "gets in" on him seems to automatically win.

And what do we make of Pikachu? Nairo convinced me that the ZSS/Pikachu MU is in Zero Suit's favor still and ESAM's losses to several Sheiks (K9, ZeRo, Larry Lurr's Sheik in that embarassing "grudge match") shows that that is a losing matchup as well. Do we still consider Pikachu top 10?

Lastly, what about Mario? Sheik and Zero Suit seem to have the clear advantage in that matchup and it seems Villager doesn't lose the matchup as hard as players of either character tend to claim, since Ally has fought Ranai 3 times and lost. Is Mario still considered top 10?

I know that Izaw was a Link main through Brawl, but I don't know how good a player he is. He's probably the most well known Link because of his channel, but that doesnt always translate into skill level. I'd argue it's both a better player and a rather unfavorable matchup in Heero's Sonic.

That said, if you're the same Blue Ninjakoopa on Austin's PR, how good is CTX|Sassy, and do you know whether it was 2-1 or 2-0? That might help give us a more general view of Izaw's skill.

 

[C0rvus]

Here we go with more complaints (like after every major lol)

Did no one see the set where I played Mr R with Diddy Kong and won at G3? Or maybe any other tournament where I beat a top level Sheik in a solid fashion effectively avoiding down throw setups, needles and edgeguards and like everything LOL with Diddy Kong (a bad match up too btw, it's not a close one like rosa sheik or sheik mario etc)

I mean, if anything it speaks mostly to your knowledge and skill. I think Diddy is top 10, but I am ignorant to his matchup spread. If you could do like an overview video with his matchups that would be cool. Spread good information and it will go far.

I would be more than willing to go in depth and learn the Sheik MU, needle counterplay, etc. if I had a main lol. It seems very character specific, like how Lloyd can block needles, although that seemed to not block all of them.

Telling us "LOL I beat top players in a bad MU, git gud" isn't very constructive, and is in the same vein as the complaints about Sheik

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Sheik's good but people (players) are lazy, ignorant and just choose to complain rather than learn what their options are majority of the time and that is a poor mindset in competitive play that happens very often

its much easier to come in an online forum and complain and write long posts of why sheik is here or there than simply sit down and learn your options in every scenario

its disappointing

What's more disappointing is that you're coming in here and basically ****ting on everybody from on high rather than explaining yourself. Why is Diddy a bad MU? What is there to it?

A lot of people are wondering, you know.

Smooth Criminal

 

[TurboLink]

Sheik's good but people (players) are lazy, ignorant and just choose to complain rather than learn what their options are majority of the time and that is a poor mindset in competitive play that happens very often

its much easier to come in an online forum and complain and write long posts of why sheik is here or there than simply sit down and learn your options in every scenario

its disappointing

All of this is easy to say when you main the best character in the game. Try solo maining Bowser, Zelda, Link, Jigglypuff, Marth, Roy, or even Shulk in a national tournament and then come back and tell us what you think.

 

[ARISTOS]

reading comments right now, apparently he'll keep him as a secondary for specific mus such as pika.

makes sense

This is a bit worrisome

 

[TTTTTsd]

Sheik's good but people (players) are lazy, ignorant and just choose to complain rather than learn what their options are majority of the time and that is a poor mindset in competitive play that happens very often

its much easier to come in an online forum and complain and write long posts of why sheik is here or there than simply sit down and learn your options in every scenario

its disappointing

As a curious lab rat, can I ask how I can go about studying this stuff? IDK if the Sheik boards will help but, what's your best method of practice if your only scene is inconvenient to reach?

I'm asking out of curiosity, nothing more. I'd just like a little guidance perhaps, Sheik's a mental block of mine when I run into a good one haha. I've dipped in and out of some boards but I can only come out with so much info....

 

[Ulevo]

Sheik's good but people (players) are lazy, ignorant and just choose to complain rather than learn what their options are majority of the time and that is a poor mindset in competitive play that happens very often

its much easier to come in an online forum and complain and write long posts of why sheik is here or there than simply sit down and learn your options in every scenario

its disappointing

People and players are more than capable of keeping a competitive mindset and playing to win rather than making excuses about a top tier while still having valid complaints about a character. Assuming that the players issuing the complaints are doing so out of laziness is understandable, but wrong.

I have respect for you ZeRo, but if you really believe Sheik is okay from a balance point of view, and you use you your own anecdotal evidence and personal success against the character to justify why she is 'okay', I do not find my opinion remaining congruent with yours.

 

[Y2Kay]

Sheik's good but people (players) are lazy, ignorant and just choose to complain rather than learn what their options are majority of the time and that is a poor mindset in competitive play that happens very often

its much easier to come in an online forum and complain and write long posts of why sheik is here or there than simply sit down and learn your options in every scenario

its disappointing

No disrespect ZeRo, but people have been trying to solve the Sheik equation for a while now, but with no luck. A majority of the cast isn't well equipped enough to really go toe to toe with her.

 

[san.]

Roy isn't that terrible as anyone makes it out to be. Noticable on the lack of understanding of the character Anyone who says Roy has bad mobility doesn't really understand the character. He has really high reward on a lot of moves and pretty nice combos. Most of you probably haven't seen a top level Roy yet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-pNX_RH3Mc#t=5m10
Here is Semifer playing with Roy, against Sodrek. Both are among europe's best players. You can probably learn a lot in these games.

This didn't really help turn around my perspective on Roy being just 'ok' to even mediocre. Aerial fair does seem to help a lot.

DI-ing blazer in (he learned the second time and survived at like 130 easily), jumping into up smash, never ever edgeguarding the predictable upBs (last one admittedly because fox, but not even once trying?). Even with 0 MU knowledge, Roy was getting beat up all over the place, and that's without the Fox player capitalizing whenever the Roy tried to land with an aerial or dashed too close. Roy getting solid bairs with rage at 120 and Fox barely going anywhere.

 

[Luig]

I think sheik's frame data should be worse, but she should have an easier time killing.
That's probably a horrible idea.

Also, for people complaining about sheik nerfs, the reason she hasn't gotten nerfed that hard is because she kinda sucks in ffas, and sakurai balances around that too.

Just a thought.

 

[Eugene Wang]

Ok, so who does have a better-than-even matchup against Sheik?

I'll take your word for it after you win EVO 2016 with Diddy. But when the combo queen has superhuman agility, a versatile recovery, and half a kill confirm while the opponent is still trying to pile on damage, people are going to wonder how the heck she's balanced.

 

[Big-Cat]

Sheik's good but people (players) are lazy, ignorant and just choose to complain rather than learn what their options are majority of the time and that is a poor mindset in competitive play that happens very often

its much easier to come in an online forum and complain and write long posts of why sheik is here or there than simply sit down and learn your options in every scenario

its disappointing

Easy to say when you play a character that has little to no commitment required on her moves yet has strong rewards and has a get out of jail card with Bouncing Fish.

Like others have said, no one thinks Sheik is broken. She's just stupid in some aspects though.

 

[AnEventHorizon]

Here we go with more complaints (like after every major lol)

Did no one see the set where I played Mr R with Diddy Kong and won at G3? Or maybe any other tournament where I beat a top level Sheik in a solid fashion effectively avoiding down throw setups, needles and edgeguards and like everything LOL with Diddy Kong (a bad match up too btw, it's not a close one like rosa sheik or sheik mario etc)

Here is the set in question if anyone is curious. 7 hours 30 minutes 40 seconds if timestamp doesnt work.

 

[Blue Ninjakoopa]

TurboLink Considering all that, not much. I thought that with him getting a bomb confirm in the most recent patch he'd have a better time getting kills. And in the patch before that that gave him down throw follow-ups and 50-50s at certain percents for u-air, I imagined Link would place more similar to the likes of R.O.B. and DK. But now I finally see that he has inherent design flaws. In fact, most Zelda characters do besides Sheik and Toon Link.

I know that Izaw was a Link main through Brawl, but I don't know how good a player he is. He's probably the most well known Link because of his channel, but that doesnt always translate into skill level. I'd argue it's both a better player and a rather unfavorable matchup in Heero's Sonic.

That said, if you're the same Blue Ninjakoopa on Austin's PR, how good is CTX|Sassy, and do you know whether it was 2-1 or 2-0? That might help give us a more general view of Izaw's skill.

He's pretty good, he has a positive record against DJFliphop (top Diddy Kong in Houston) and has taken sets off AeroLink, Denti, Scizor (at a Dallas tournament), Trela, BSP (his perception of Pac-Man was heavily influenced by his set with BSP, as was mine), and he apparently beat Ryuk in a money match. He's the first R.O.B. to successfully incorporate down air into R.O.B.'s down throw combos (OCEAN tried it once but it failed and he doesn't seem to go for it anymore), and he's the only R.O.B. I've seen consciously combo a spinning Gyro into an up smash. He used to be really bad at the R.O.B. ditto until he played me a bunch, but unfortunately it was a R.O.B. player named Virus that eliminated him. :<

Reportedly SaSSy beat Izaw 2-0 and Izaw claimed he didn't know the R.O.B. matchup, which wouldn't surprise me since the only R.O.B. in Europe is an inactive one (ccst).

 

[Yikarur]

This didn't really help turn around my perspective on Roy being just 'ok' to even mediocre. Aerial fair does seem to help a lot.

DI-ing blazer in (he learned the second time and survived at like 130 easily), jumping into up smash, never ever edgeguarding the predictable upBs (last one admittedly because fox, but not even once trying?). Even with 0 MU knowledge, Roy was getting beat up all over the place, and that's without the Fox player capitalizing whenever the Roy tried to land with an aerial or dashed too close. Roy getting solid bairs with rage at 120 and Fox barely going anywhere.

I didn't say the character is "good". But people were saying "so terrible" "nothing on Marth" "bad mobility" "garbage character" etc. and that's just false. Most of those people have proably never seen a good Roy or don't even know what Roy's abilities are, when they're stating just wrong things. They are swimming with the tide (like a lot of people in this thread do). Like people still rate Swordfighter as the worst character, because they heard it somewhere, same thing for the opinion about Roy in this thread so I just wanted to clear that up.

Of course he still has problems. Otherwise he would be a high mid tier oder high tier character. But I think edgeguarding is not an issue in most match-ups.
I think you're from the Ike perspective were Ike can edgeguard Roy really terribly. Most characters cannot do it that easily. Fox is a combo monster and Roy is prone to combos, of course he gets beaten up all over.

 

[Rysir]

Sheik's good but people (players) are lazy, ignorant and just choose to complain rather than learn what their options are majority of the time and that is a poor mindset in competitive play that happens very often

its much easier to come in an online forum and complain and write long posts of why sheik is here or there than simply sit down and learn your options in every scenario

its disappointing

Ouch man, Im busting my rear learning the ins and outs of my character and match ups since 3Ds only to hear Im lazy and ignorant when issues are found with specific things of a high tier?

Surely something else is at play here.

 

[TDK]

I think Sakurai still balances Sheik as though Sheik and Zelda are still the same character. So no, we're not going to see less intangibility on her up-b, she's not going to get laggier, Needle Storm isn't suddenly going to become unsafe because Sheik is designed in the way that she racks damage and then you transform into Zelda for KOing. That's why Zelda sucks at everything but KOing, because Sakurai still balances them around transforming. Of, if he doesn't, he wants to keep them the way they were in Melee/Brawl. It's the reason Ganondorf is still a clone.

So yeah, Sheik's not going to be nerfed anytime soon. Especially not in the safety department.

 

[ARGHETH]

All of this is easy to say when you main the best character in the game. Try solo maining Bowser, Zelda, Link, Jigglypuff, Marth, Roy, or even Shulk in a national tournament and then come back and tell us what you think.

...
Don't they get beaten by the other high tiers, too? I really doubt Sheik (and ZSS) alone are the problem. They can't make it in national tournaments because they lack the tools to more than getting beaten badly by the top tiers. I'm of the opinion that Sheik needs to be retuned a little, but this...really isn't an argument.
Also, doesn't Bowser have more issues with ZSS?

Also, Sakurai likely won't cause any major changes in a move...stuff like the jump/invincibility frames of Vanish aren't leaving anytime soon.

 

[ぱみゅ]

So I guess ZeRo also thinks top players are lazy, since even they fell victims of the 50-50 setup (that last game vs Ranai? he spammed grab and got away with it).

Sheik is incredibly good, and even if you, ZeRo, managed to avoid it with one of the safest, most nimble characters in the game like Diddy, doesn't mean she doesn't need a fix. However minor mid you, probably even overall trivial, but she is a dominant force that is only waiting to be exploited more and more.

 

[san.]

I didn't say the character is "good". But people were saying "so terrible" "nothing on Marth" "bad mobility" "garbage character" etc. and that's just false. Most of those people have proably never seen a good Roy or don't even know what Roy's abilities are, when they're stating just wrong things. They are swimming with the tide (like a lot of people in this thread do). Like people still rate Swordfighter as the worst character, because they heard it somewhere, same thing for the opinion about Roy in this thread so I just wanted to clear that up.

Of course he still has problems. Otherwise he would be a high mid tier oder high tier character. But I think edgeguarding is not an issue in most match-ups.
I think you're from the Ike perspective were Ike can edgeguard Roy really terribly. Most characters cannot do it that easily. Fox is a combo monster and Roy is prone to combos, of course he gets beaten up all over.

Ah, ok. I agree 100%. Roy's not that much different viability-wise than Marth in my opinion and Marth is pretty decent after numerous buffs. I can only think of Roy as okay, and really hoped the video would turn this thought around (apparently Void's Roy is amazing, too).

I use Ike, Gunner, Swordfighter, DK, and Jigglypuff, and they all happen to edgeguard Roy so that may have an effect

 

[TurboLink]

...
Don't they get beaten by the other high tiers, too? I really doubt Sheik (and ZSS) alone are the problem. They can't make it in national tournaments because they lack the tools to more than getting beaten badly by the top tiers. I'm of the opinion that Sheik needs to be retuned a little, but this...really isn't an argument.
Also, doesn't Bowser have more issues with ZSS?

Yes, they do. Not because all those high-tiers are unbalanced. But because low/mid-tiers are underpowered. But Sheik is also a problem. Sheik on the otherhand is unbalanced. Once they somehow get past the army of Captain Falcons, Zero Suit Samuses, and etc., they get to Sheik.

 

[Yikarur]

Sheik's good but people (players) are lazy, ignorant and just choose to complain rather than learn what their options are majority of the time and that is a poor mindset in competitive play that happens very often

its much easier to come in an online forum and complain and write long posts of why sheik is here or there than simply sit down and learn your options in every scenario

its disappointing

You make wrong assumptions. Most people try to learn how to handle Sheik how she is now. They HAVE to. There is hopefully no good player out there who complains instead of learning. Most people learn the MU while still wanting nerfs, because she is objectively a far better character than anyone else. It's not a bad thing to think about possible nerfs. Thats just the logical way of thinking if you want a healthy game.

And I think Sheik : Diddy is far closer to even than you're saying. It's a bit arrogant to always emphasize how bad the Diddy MU is while still beating the Sheiks with him, to "prove" your point. Don't do that. We've seen a lot more Diddy : Sheik MUs that have been on a really even level. We have seen Ryuji vs. Void. Ryuji got close to a double 2-stock but got comebacked sadly. Ryuji played even with Rain at the japanese tournament before. And there are many more examples. This is not a bad MU.

Reportedly SaSSy beat Izaw 2-0 and Izaw claimed he didn't know the R.O.B. matchup, which wouldn't surprise me since the only R.O.B. in Europe is an inactive one (ccst).

Germany's Top5 player Long0uw plays ROB successfully. Spain' Powerranking has a R.O.B in Top5 as well. It's not that we don't have players of certain characters, it's just that people don't really travel out of country.

 

[LevinViolin]

No matter how everyone feels about Shiek, I do think it's apropos to take a step back and look at our situation here.

We have an update coming around the corner in Febuary, and it might be the last update that Sm4sh will receive. You can argue that it would be "stupid" of Nintendo to forgo updating the game after releasing two new characters, but based on what Sakurai has said in a few interviews and Nintendo's general policy on these kinds of things it should definitely be considered that February may very well be the final update for the game.

If we look at the trends for previous updates, it's been quite a while since the "top tiers" were nerfed. The latest updates seem to be primarily focused on buffing lower tier characters, while they leave high tiers and mid-tiers untouched. There are a couple exceptions, but expecting anything significant is an empty dream if you ask me. I highly doubt they'll change Vanish in any meaningful way, and I'll consider us lucky if needles get nerfed.

Discussing design philosophy is interesting and all, but I seriously do not think we'll be seeing any changes to Shiek or ZSS for any remaining updates. There's no harm in trying to theorize and figure out to deal with how Shiek and ZSS are now.

That being said, I do agree that if ZeRo could help us out in figuring out exactly how to deal with Shiek's wide array of effective options, that would be great.

 

[Big-Cat]

Yes, they do. Not because all those high-tiers are unbalanced. But because low/mid-tiers are underpowered. But Sheik is also a problem. Sheik on the otherhand is unbalanced. Once they somehow get past the army of Captain Falcons, Zero Suit Samuses, and etc., they get to Sheik.

I'm not sure what Falcon's problem is. The only characters that strike me as having balance issues in the sense they're too good would be Zamus and Sheik. To a certain extent, Rosalina as well, but that's more Luma than her.

 

[ぱみゅ]

That being said, I do agree that if ZeRo could help us out in figuring out exactly how to deal with Shiek's wide array of effective options, that would be great.

He may charge us $50 to teach us that.

But most characters simply lack approach options, are forced to do something thanks to Needle Storm, and to make this worse, she doesn't even NEED the 50-50 when it is a guaranteed kill on Town and City.
If it were remotely easy to avoid people would have figured it out by now.

 

[Ffamran]

Ally said he's going to switch to Sheik or ZSS? Why does this remind me of something... Oh wait, he and a bunch of other people said they would switch to ZSS after Umebara FAT.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Worth noting that in terms of the combination of roll distance, animation length, and endlag, Diddy's roll is fourth best in the game. Few characters are lucky enough to have such ridiculous stats on their rolls.

Luckily Wario's ground-only glitch with the Bike seems to avoid the D-Throw 50/50 KO mix-up entirely.

 

[Charoite]

nah sakurai is too perfectionist to do that, but i am sure that the time between patches will be more, like 4 or 6 months like the majority of fighting games.

 

[Ffamran]

I'm not sure what Falcon's problem is.

Extreme disjoints. They fixed rapid jab finisher's disjoint, but that still leaves Up Smash and Side Smash's disjoint. Dash attack's disjoint is livable, but still annoying. The really stupid thing is they could have "fixed" this if they never changed his Up and Side Smash from 64.

If people are wondering, no, I'm not picking on the Capt. Falco's goddamned disjoint on Dtilt needs to go too along with the landing hit of Fair which is hella disjointed because all Falco does is lay there while an invisible middle finger hits you. Either Dtilt's disjoint needs to be removed completely or they have to jury rig someone's Dtilt animation, Ryu's heavy Dtilt for example, onto Falco's so it'll at least match the hitbox. Meanwhile, Fox's Dtilt needs its hitbox fixed to match his freaking tail.

 

[Solfiner]

I'd still bet that we're getting at least one more patch after the characters are out, mainly as a final fine tuning. That aside though, it is much healthier to try and advance the current meta than waiting for buffs/nerfs that may not happen.

 

[Ulevo]

If ZeRo could help us out in figuring out exactly how to deal with Shiek's wide array of effective options, that would be great.

You do not deal with Sheik. You deal with the player playing Sheik because Sheik herself has no counterplay if the player does not make mistakes.

Her core problem is that forward air and Needle Storm invalidate characters that cannot handle these two single options, similar to how Rosalina invalidates projectile based characters who cannot compete with Luma just by having Gravitational Pull, and she happens to have the best mobility and options in the game at the same time. The fact that some moves are overtuned, like Vanish having invincibility, strong knock back growth, and a damn windbox, just adds to the unnecessary frustration.

I know this sounds exaggerated but it is true. Sheik is the 20XX character of Smash Wii U. Players and characters are able to win against her because the players using her are either relying on exceptional experience and fundamentals utilizing her core strengths without exploiting how ridiculous everything else is, like Zero does, or are using her innovating techs without the fundamentals and experience to push through against equally experienced players, like Void does. In short, Sheiks are losing because they are messing up with a deep, technical, hard to play character, similar to how Melee players took a long time to abuse and win with Fox in international tournaments. The fact that mid level Sheiks struggle to kill with her and that she does low damage on a per hit, rather than a per confirm basis, also helps to mask her problematic design.

I do not think she is broken because she will always be beatable, but that is not because she isn't in a league of her own. She definitely is.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

What's more disappointing is that you're coming in here and basically ****ting on everybody from on high rather than explaining yourself. Why is Diddy a bad MU? What is there to it?

A lot of people are wondering, you know.

Smooth Criminal

No, a lot of people are wandering.

 

[DblCrest]

Sheesh...I understand some of you didn't like what ZeRo posted.But we don't need the thread cluttered with several responses to what he said. It's like a line of you waiting to throw your cents in.

Anyway... I had another look at how vanish works vs Kirby's stone. If you managed to catch her with it.( which can be tough)

Either you'd hit the explosion and be able to get out of stone and Sheik escapes you.
You'd hit Sheik just as she reappears
You'd hit her before she vanishes.

Difficulty is getting her in this position.It's real easy for her to snap the ledge thanks to BF giving her the horizontal recovery she needs. I think it's better to go for ledge trumping all and all. Or maybe throw a hitbox onto the ledge and hope for the best.

 

[Rizen]

TSM ZeRo Congrats on your big win! It'd be great to hear your competitive impressions on various subjects if you feel like stopping by

 

[Sinister Slush]

Sheesh...I understand some of you didn't like what ZeRo posted.But we don't need the thread cluttered with several responses to what he said.

Yeah we do.
When somebody comes in here basically saying "lol sheik isn't broken, you're all just lazy arrogant and bad" there really does need to be quite a few responses to tell him how wrong he is.

Idc if he's the best player in the galaxy or goes on a 666 tourney win streak, if his arguing is bad we call him out on it.

 

[Macchiato]

I think WiiFit is a good character and is underrated. Just underrepresented. It's shown by John#s, RIN, and Waveguider that (s)he is definitely viable at big tournaments.