Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[TurboLink]

I'd say Roy has a niche amongst the swordsman.

Early post woops: I say this due to how deadly he is close range. Both Cloud and Ike have massive swords with strong spacing games, but at least Roy has a fairly easy time securing early kills without having to rely on Limit or otherwise.

Of course, I believe that Cloud has things much better than Roy and Ike though.

A 5 frame jab is deadly? Roy relies a lot on reads to close out stocks.

 

[LordShade67]

I'd say Roy has a niche amongst the swordsman.

Early post woops: I say this due to how deadly he is close range. Both Cloud and Ike have massive swords with strong spacing games, but at least Roy has a fairly easy time securing early kills without having to rely on Limit or otherwise.

Of course, I believe that Cloud has things much better than Roy and Ike though.

Ike has a solid grab game, solid edgeguarding, solid kill power(and not just in smashes, either) + kill confirms, 2 recovery options, and is a heavy so he takes forever to die. Ike's still in this.

 

[LancerStaff]

One got in the 97th tied spot. That's it.

There's really no point in playing him when Ike and Cloud both exist if you want a good swordsman.

And, yaknow, Pit...

Kinda tired of having him left out of the relevant swordsman category to be honest.

Link definitely has results, probably archived in a certain tournament results thread on the Link forums . The thing is, so does Zelda and Ganon and probably all characters to some extent . IMO it's enough to justify him as a mid tier but people need to realize Link does better vs scrubs than good players. A lot of newbies think Link is fan-tucking-fastic but then they actually attend live events with good people and get a taste of reality.

I mean, I get why Link doesn't really work at high level play (considering Pit's practically built as a counter to him) but people seem to just toss him in the trash tier bin with the likes of Roy and the other FG scrub character without really considering what a decent player could do. To me it seems like Link's an actual solid mid tier unlike Zard, Kirby or whatever.

I'd say Roy has a niche amongst the swordsman.

Early post woops: I say this due to how deadly he is close range. Both Cloud and Ike have massive swords with strong spacing games, but at least Roy has a fairly easy time securing early kills without having to rely on Limit or otherwise.

Of course, I believe that Cloud has things much better than Roy and Ike though.

Roy doesn't even do that well up close because his f5 jab is so short ranged and two of the good swordsmen have significantly better grab games and safe kill options then him. Roy's startup to range ratio is way outta whack...

 

[HeavyLobster]

Cloud is better overall than Ike, but Ike's still pretty good. Roy is worse than Ike close range and also gets outspaced and is easy to edgeguard. Roy I think is worse than Marth, which is not a good sign for him. Low tier actually seems about right considering how many characters have been buffed. Ganondorf actually probably had 10-15 characters worse than him in 1.0.4 like Falco, Marth, and Charizard among others who've since passed him, but now there are very few I'd say are conclusively worse, really only Puff and Zelda I'm 100% confident in.

 

[Ffamran]

Yay, perfect angles for Captain Falcon and Ganondorf to hit confirm themselves with their Up Specials into Cloud's kill moves: https://youtu.be/DU91yHNInsA.

Also, item play: https://youtu.be/JPcdYCQj5xg. People said it before, whether items are on or off or if or if not you're using an item-based character, you should still know how to use items.

And typical Captain Falcon stuff: https://youtu.be/uRQoZsb1ITw.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Yay, perfect angles for Captain Falcon and Ganondorf to hit confirm themselves with their Up Specials into Cloud's kill moves: https://youtu.be/DU91yHNInsA.

Also, item play: https://youtu.be/JPcdYCQj5xg. People said it before, whether items are on or off or if or if not you're using an item-based character, you should still know how to use items.

And typical Captain Falcon stuff: https://youtu.be/uRQoZsb1ITw.

I think just about everyone can Rockcrock them. That probably shouldn't exist.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Fatmanonice

Samus and Shulk are definitely better than D3, bud. Lucina is also definitely worse than he is.

Smooth Criminal

Alright, I'll bite; why? I placed Samus and Shulk where they are because they've been plagued by low representation and ambiguity since the very beginning so it's hard to say what either are capable of aside from "not much." As for Lucina, I'm probably one of five people who doesn't think she's a billion times worse than Marth. Obviously not equal but I'm not convinced that Marth is all that great either.

 

[williamsga555]

Conversely, I think Samus and Lucina are definitely better, but am a bit skeptical of Shulk.

At least the three of us agree that Samus is better. Really not sure why she's still got such a terrible wrap. She's not that bad.

 

[Strong-Arm]

One thing that doesnt help Roy is his total lack of representation. :/

 

[Twizman]

I miss Sonic's old back throw. So much hype when 6WX made it to 4th and Apex 15'.
Sheik is too strong, but may be difficult to nerf due to her design. It might be less fun if she couldn't close out those down throw up air kills.

 

[Cesar2626]

Im the Mario and Ryu from Puerto Rico I hope this lets everyone know that my country cant be slept on

 

[Nobie]

There's a key aspect, flaw, and clearly intentional weakness that is built into Samus that make people rate her poorly. All of the hitbox complaints, the jab complaint, all of it stems from one quality: Samus is purposely designed not to have any go-to panic buttons.

Her Up B is of course really good, but if you miss that's a problem. Her jab doesn't link, and the game even tells you that it's better to jab and run sometimes than to follow up. A lot of her attacks do not hit close to her body. She can't even roll comfortably because it's the slowest in the game. This forces you to be conscious of everything she can and cannot do.

You might call this a bad neutral or disadvantaged state or whatever, but when you look at Samus's qualities on paper I think we can see why they decided to introduce this flaw into her. She's heavy, yet floaty, which means she survives longer and is harder to juggle. She comes with a fearsome projectile. Her attacks actually DO hit hard, or combo, or BOTH, and she can even through out multiple ones in a single short hop.

 

[Dream Cancel]

Is Roy really regarded as that poor of a character?

Frame 5 Jab is weak, sure. Everything else isn't particularly safe mechanically, (besides his Neutral B) weakening his spacing game. He has a linear recovery, thus making it easy to gimp him and end his stocks earlier.

And what? His grab game is good, his coverage of ledge options is good with his tilts, his F-Smash is always a looming threat. Being a Fast-faller gives him a good combo game and his speed gives him opportunites for punishes and mind games. He's not on the level of Cloud and Ike, but he's a threatening character regardless. Not a character you can throw into "low tier" and ignore, unless you're a top player. (which I'm far from being one lol)

As far as Ike and Cloud are concerned, I'm leaning towards Cloud based on Genesis 3 results. But I'd be a fool to ever count Ike out of consideration.

 

[TurboLink]

Is Roy really regarded as that poor of a character?

Frame 5 Jab is weak, sure. Everything else isn't particularly safe mechanically, (besides his Neutral B) weakening his spacing game. He has a linear recovery, thus making it easy to gimp him and end his stocks earlier.

And what? His grab game is good, his coverage of ledge options is good with his tilts, his F-Smash is always a looming threat. Being a Fast-faller gives him a good combo game and his speed gives him opportunites for punishes and mind games. He's not on the level of Cloud and Ike, but he's a threatening character regardless. Not a character you can throw into "low tier" and ignore, unless you're a top player. (which I'm far from being one lol)

As far as Ike and Cloud are concerned, I'm leaning towards Cloud based on Genesis 3 results. But I'd be a fool to ever count Ike out of consideration.

Being a fast faller also makes you more easy to combo and can hurt your off stage game.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Roy's startup to range ratio is way outta whack...

Gonna be real, he has more range and hitboxes than Marth, the only slower moves in startup are FSmash and FAir. (I think they both kind of suffer this problem honestly). He lacks the dumb deadzones Marth has and has better or equal FAF on like everything but FSmash.

I'm kind of leaning back and forth between Marth and Roy but honestly I don't even think it matters a whole ton now that Cloud is here. I tend to find Roy more accommodating on a personal level, Marth's mobility feels really lacking to me in conjunction with his aerials and grounded game (mostly after playing Cloud).

On the note of grabs and throws, I don't find Cloud's grab game to be better than Roy's, however. I would rank Cloud's grab and throw game above Marth, though. Cloud's grabs have really poor startup compared to both emblems but the reason I find myself preferring his to Marth's is that they still give Cloud position and damage, except Cloud gets BETTER damage and has the mobility to fish for them a bit better if he wants to. Roy's movement speed is part of why his grabs and throws are actually stellar (nothing amazing like Ike's, though)

 

[HeavyLobster]

Is Roy really regarded as that poor of a character?

Frame 5 Jab is weak, sure. Everything else isn't particularly safe mechanically, (besides his Neutral B) weakening his spacing game. He has a linear recovery, thus making it easy to gimp him and end his stocks earlier.

And what? His grab game is good, his coverage of ledge options is good with his tilts, his F-Smash is always a looming threat. Being a Fast-faller gives him a good combo game and his speed gives him opportunites for punishes and mind games. He's not on the level of Cloud and Ike, but he's a threatening character regardless. Not a character you can throw into "low tier" and ignore, unless you're a top player. (which I'm far from being one lol)

As far as Ike and Cloud are concerned, I'm leaning towards Cloud based on Genesis 3 results. But I'd be a fool to ever count Ike out of consideration.

Well Big D proves that you can't just ignore low tiers in this game either. But Roy clearly is a below average character and is pretty darn linear, even if he has some good tools you have to respect.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Is Roy really regarded as that poor of a character?

Roy? To put it simply, he plays too much like a Melee character, which is really bad in this game. A fast faller with poor aerial mobility and an underwhelming recovery. Everything he can do, Marth and Ike can do better and I'd be willing to say that aside from Little Mac, he's the worst offstage. Yes, he hits like a truck and has decent combos but, again, so does Little Mac, showing you can't get by on offense alone.

 

[Flux0r]

Is Roy really regarded as that poor of a character?

Frame 5 Jab is weak, sure. Everything else isn't particularly safe mechanically, (besides his Neutral B) weakening his spacing game. He has a linear recovery, thus making it easy to gimp him and end his stocks earlier.

And what? His grab game is good, his coverage of ledge options is good with his tilts, his F-Smash is always a looming threat. Being a Fast-faller gives him a good combo game and his speed gives him opportunites for punishes and mind games. He's not on the level of Cloud and Ike, but he's a threatening character regardless. Not a character you can throw into "low tier" and ignore, unless you're a top player. (which I'm far from being one lol)

As far as Ike and Cloud are concerned, I'm leaning towards Cloud based on Genesis 3 results. But I'd be a fool to ever count Ike out of consideration.

His disadvantage state is among the worst (if not THE worst) in the whole game.

He will either eat 40-70% due to his perfect combo weight, die to a kill confirm that only works on him or simply getting gimped.

He can't make a mistake, but that is almost impossible due to his bad approach and neutral.

 

[L9999]

Roy is still the same as he was in Melee. A garbage tier character outclassed by everyone his class overhyped by low mid level players.

 

[predator_21476]

Roy? To put it simply, he plays too much like a Melee character, which is really bad in this game. A fast faller with poor aerial mobility and an underwhelming recovery. Everything he can do, Marth and Ike can do better and I'd be willing to say that aside from Little Mac, he's the worst offstage. Yes, he hits like a truck and has decent combos but, again, so does Little Mac, showing you can't get by on offense alone.

My only disagreement with this is Marth really can't do much that is better than Roy. Roy is not good in this game but he is better than Marth because he has a ton of issues. Roy's top airspeed is really good though so his aerial mobility isn't complete garbage.

 

[Zannabluke]

bad neutral? i don't know you guys but back when i was actively playing, i used to respect roy's footsies a lot

 

[DomBadZZZ]

DKWill got top 25! He only lost to Tyrant twice which is pretty lame he had to play the same person twice but either way i think he's making a solid case that DK can be high-mid tier and do very well in large tournaments.

 

[TurboLink]

My only disagreement with this is Marth really can't do much that is better than Roy. Roy is not good in this game but he is better than Marth because he has a ton of issues. Roy's top airspeed is really good though so his aerial mobility isn't complete garbage.

I just checked Roy's air acceleration and it's bottom three. He can't turn very well in the air.

Source.

His air speed is top four though.

Source.

 

[Vermanubis]

Don't believe any top Ganon main has attended an American national event thus far, at least not if we mean by that Kalm, Verm, or GanontheBeast, or the Japanese Dorfs. The best Dorf that went to Genesis 3 was Swoops and got like 5th in round 1 pools.

The curse will soon be broken.

 

[predator_21476]

I just checked Roy's air acceleration and it's bottom three. He can't turn very well in the air.

Source: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Air_acceleration

Air speed. Not acceleration. His air acceleration is complete crap though.

 

[TurboLink]

Air speed. Not acceleration. His air acceleration is complete crap though.

(Ignore this post.)

 

[Vipermoon]

Gonna be real, he has more range and hitboxes than Marth, the only slower moves in startup are FSmash and FAir. (I think they both kind of suffer this problem honestly). He lacks the dumb deadzones Marth has and has better or equal FAF on like everything but FSmash.

I'm kind of leaning back and forth between Marth and Roy but honestly I don't even think it matters a whole ton now that Cloud is here. I tend to find Roy more accommodating on a personal level, Marth's mobility feels really lacking to me in conjunction with his aerials and grounded game (mostly after playing Cloud).

On the note of grabs and throws, I don't find Cloud's grab game to be better than Roy's, however. I would rank Cloud's grab and throw game above Marth, though. Cloud's grabs have really poor startup compared to both emblems but the reason I find myself preferring his to Marth's is that they still give Cloud position and damage, except Cloud gets BETTER damage and has the mobility to fish for them a bit better if he wants to. Roy's movement speed is part of why his grabs and throws are actually stellar (nothing amazing like Ike's, though)

I have to clarify something. Shaya said Roy has more reach than Marth in most cases. Not range. Reach in Shaya language means disjoint. But yes, Roy has enormous, Melee-like inner hitboxes. His hitboxes are profound. Marth's are among the worst in this game.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I miss Sonic's old back throw.

... said nobody ever.

 

[aεrgiα]

are people really going to completely dismiss pika because of esam getting 13th(ermagerd such a bad placing!!), which just as a side note is the same as both the top meta knight and top sonic placing, which to me just gets even more silly when u consider the fact that esam got knocked out by nairo, also i dont know how many people actually watched esam vs teb but heres my short rundown of it: first game esam went yoshi(and lost) so that doesnt contribute anything against pika, game 2 esam went pika and 2 stocked teb, then game 3 teb beat esam with only 12% on his last stock, but what i will say is that imo, esam didnt lose that last game because of a bad mu, he just got completely outplayed, either way, pika vs mario is a draw... anyway, i dont see how you can just dismiss acharacter just because its best player didnt make top 8 at such a stacked tournament, especially when you still advocate ryu, sonic and meta knight all of which didnt place higher than pika either... this isnt meant to be a "pika is top 3 for sure" post but rather im questioning the logic behind this, especially since personally, i still consider 13th at such a stacked event a very good result(especially considering he got eliminated by nairo)

 

[Dream Cancel]

I appreciate the responses everyone, and thanks for spelling things out for me; I'm not exactly the sharpest player out there.

So I'm interested to hear anyone's thoughts of how Genesis 3 will affect the Corrin/Bayonetta patch. I've read some of the earlier posts about it (which was mainly a whole bunch of "nerf Sheik" calls) and, I'm interested in how the meta game for so many characters has progressed in a single tournament.

Did any Mega Man players make it out of R1 Pools? The only person I recognized was StylesX2 and he got 5th in his pool I believe.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I have to clarify something. Shaya said Roy has more reach than Marth in most cases. Not range. Reach in Shaya language means disjoint. But yes, Roy has enormous, Melee-like inner hitboxes. His hitboxes are profound. Marth's are among the worst in this game.

Oh, thanks fam! I'll keep that in mind for future reference.

I agree, I never whiff my stuff with Roy at all. His Fair even hits above him properly even though it looks like it should hit worse vertically than Marth's (my word)

 

[Das Koopa]

are people really going to completely dismiss pika because of esam getting 13th(ermagerd such a bad placing!!), which just as a side note is the same as both the top meta knight and top sonic placing, which to me just gets even more silly when u consider the fact that esam got knocked out by nairo, also i dont know how many people actually watched esam vs teb but heres my short rundown of it: first game esam went yoshi(and lost) so that doesnt contribute anything against pika, game 2 esam went pika and 2 stocked teb, then game 3 teb beat esam with only 12% on his last stock, but what i will say is that imo, esam didnt lose that last game because of a bad mu, he just got completely outplayed, either way, pika vs mario is a draw... anyway, i dont see how you can just dismiss acharacter just because its best player didnt make top 8 at such a stacked tournament, especially when you still advocate ryu, sonic and meta knight all of which didnt place higher than pika either... this isnt meant to be a "pika is top 3 for sure" post but rather im questioning the logic behind this, especially since personally, i still consider 13th at such a stacked event a very good result(especially considering he got eliminated by nairo)

I agree 13th is a good result but I think a lot of people are justifiably using this as an indicator that Pikachu really isn't Top 3 like some people had thought for a while. I think he's top 10 for sure.

 

[Djent]

I'll probably post a tier list later, but now for some preliminary pot-stirring:

I think it's very clear by now that Villager has to be way up there. You can argue about Ranai's individual skill all you want but that amount of success and consistency he has running this character solo cannot be ignored or attributed entirely to the player. Ally is a fantastic player and Mario is a good character yet he doesn't win big tournaments nor does he reach the top 8 at G3 with solo Mario. His results are impressive but do not come close to match his success in the Brawl era where he'd run top tiers all the way. I don't think it'd be fair or accurate to say that Ally isn't as good a player as Ranai is. Villager is just a better character than Mario. Ranai also doesn't have the same streaks of inconsistency that ESAM does at the moment, which is a really remarkable thing to sayw because ESAM used to be Mr.Consistent pretty much throughout the whole Brawl era ... but again, Villager is just plain the better character.

People like to call out Yoshi for his results and call him mid tier after his G3 performance - really? Like Yikarur said, 3x top 64 is by a no means a bad showing and his metagame only just started to move forward recently with the uprise of The Wall. In sum Yoshi did better than characters like Wario [repped by Waymas and Nasubi] or Ike [Ryuga, Ryo, SM] so people are definitely jumping conclusions way too fast here.

Ranai is absolutely a better player than both Ally and ESAM.

Before SSC, ESAM had not placed top 4 at a major using solo Pikachu since the MLG days. In 2011 he actually struggled a bit, then his results took a turn upward once his ICs improved. He needed them to beat Gnes and Kakera at Apex 2012, Anti at SKTAR, and at least ZeRo (maybe Tyrant too) at Apex 2014. Now compare the wins he did get with Pikachu: a lot of those could have been attained with ICs as well. The fact that he was the only Pikachu of note for most of Brawl's lifespan (as opposed to one of many powerful ICs players) leads people to disproportionately focus on his Pikachu, even though you can argue that it wasn't even his best character.

Ally did not remain a consistent threat for top 4 in Brawl despite playing two top-5 characters (you know as well as I do that Snake was underrated in late-game Brawl). He frequently made top 8s, but more often or not fell just short. Now compare Ally and ESAM to Ranai, who was a threat to win tournaments after lying dormant for months or more at a time, potentially with a character that he hadn't even debuted before.

Now in Smash 4, all three players are 1) competing consistently, and 2) using characters who are clearly not in the top 5 of the cast. Only one is winning major tournaments, and it's the guy who rectified his one major weakness of infrequent attendance. As much as he has improved my opinion of Villager, I'm still not sure anyone else could do what he does.

 

[Fatmanonice]

The thing that makes me smile about is that he's basically become , a character that was deemed terrible early on but has a fanbase that is so dedicated to them that they've taken on the mentality "if we can't be the best, we sure as hell won't be the worst." The thing that actually has in his advantage though is that he could potentially become good again thanks to patches. He's got a laundry list of problems but I feel like if some of the bigger ones were patched, his fans would find the way to get him to move up over the course of a year or two.

 

[LonkQ]

Just to chime in on the Roy stuff, I don't think his problem is his neutral. If anything, I feel like his reward is too low. He's got nice early percent combos, but kinda flounders further into a match. You're relying on things like Up B OOS, Jab-Up B which is difficult to land with certain DI, awkward combos like first hit Nair or sourspot Uair into something to kill before Uthrow can. He can end stocks early with a read, but most of the time it feels like he just chips and chips at people with jabs and tilts late in a stock, waiting for something to feed on, but it's not really sustainable because if you screw up, you're getting hit hard.

 

[Jehtt]

Did any Mega Man players make it out of R1 Pools? The only person I recognized was StylesX2 and he got 5th in his pool I believe.

SSGuy and I both did. We both lost our first rounds (I really shouldn't have taken Diddy Kong to BF).
I do wonder how Mega Man would have fared had ScAtt or Nga been there. I still believe he's a capable character but his best representatives don't travel.

 

[predator_21476]

Just to chime in on the Roy stuff, I don't think his problem is his neutral. If anything, I feel like his reward is too low. He's got nice early percent combos, but kinda flounders further into a match. You're relying on things like Up B OOS, Jab-Up B which is difficult to land with certain DI, awkward combos like first hit Nair or sourspot Uair into something to kill before Uthrow can. He can end stocks early with a read, but most of the time it feels like he just chips and chips at people with jabs and tilts late in a stock, waiting for something to feed on, but it's not really sustainable because if you screw up, you're getting hit hard.

I agree with this. If Roy had a kill confirm it would make him much better because of how fast he can put on damage at low percent. A kill confirm would help him immensely, however that could be said about quite a few characters.

 

[meleebrawler]

There's a key aspect, flaw, and clearly intentional weakness that is built into Samus that make people rate her poorly. All of the hitbox complaints, the jab complaint, all of it stems from one quality: Samus is purposely designed not to have any go-to panic buttons.

Her Up B is of course really good, but if you miss that's a problem. Her jab doesn't link, and the game even tells you that it's better to jab and run sometimes than to follow up. A lot of her attacks do not hit close to her body. She can't even roll comfortably because it's the slowest in the game. This forces you to be conscious of everything she can and cannot do.

You might call this a bad neutral or disadvantaged state or whatever, but when you look at Samus's qualities on paper I think we can see why they decided to introduce this flaw into her. She's heavy, yet floaty, which means she survives longer and is harder to juggle. She comes with a fearsome projectile. Her attacks actually DO hit hard, or combo, or BOTH, and she can even through out multiple ones in a single short hop.

@Emblem Lord mentioned something similar about Ryu: for a top tier, and for all of his options, none of them are exactly stuff that can really be abused when in doubt. Focus Attack Dash Cancel is close to being "that one move", but even that is pretty punishable if misused.

Indeed, every past top tier has had that move they could use to get out of a jam with relatively little difficulty:

: Quick Attack
: Reflector
: Mach Tornado/Shuttle Loop

It's also been said that one of the keys to being successful at the highest levels is preventing the opponent from playing. Options like this, and Bouncing Fish/Flip Jump, make this really difficult.

 

[Ffamran]

Being a fast faller also makes you more easy to combo and can hurt your off stage game.

Meanwhile, Falco, Greninja, Sheik, and ZSS. And hell, let's add Duck Hunt?, Ganondorf, Ike, Meta Knight, Ryu, and Wario. Granted, Meta Knight has multiple jumps, but what do they have in common? All have fast fall speeds and all are considered good edgeguarders.

The problem with Roy's edgeguard game isn't his fall speed. It's the risk and reward you get from his moves. Forced to go way up close to edgeguard is really risky compared to having to space well like Marth. Oh, but what about Cloud? He's a fast faller and he has a ton of range. Aside from arguably the intentionally worst recovery in the game since even Little Mac can ledge sweet-spot, his aerials have too much recovery for him and by the time they end, he's screwed without meter letting him recover or letting him stall like with Limit Cross Slash which is an edgeguard option he uses.

Roy? To put it simply, he plays too much like a Melee character, which is really bad in this game. A fast faller with poor aerial mobility and an underwhelming recovery.

I'm sorry, but what? Roy's air speed is among the best. His air acceleration is 0.3 like Mewtwo's and just 0.1 below Ike's who's also considered to have good air speed, but bad air acceleration.

If you want a Melee character, then Cloud, Dr. Mario, Falco, and Little Mac are your answers. All of them have deliberately bad recoveries. Either they're just bad on purpose like Cloud and Little Mac's or inferior for the sake of being inferior to their counterparts like Dr. Mario and Falco's with stupid justifications like maybe Doctor Tornado which has lower overall distance gain than Luigi Cyclone is enough for the Doc to have a lower Super Jump Punch or Falco's jump height... Hey, remember how Greninja and ZSS are right below in jump height to Falco and they have superior air speed, air acceleration, and recovery moves? Cloud's the only one with good air speed, but his recovery makes Melee recoveries look good. Dr. Mario's not a fast faller, but his poor recovery moves in a game where 90% of the cast has good ones is pretty stupid. Falco just has a big: "Screw you!", stamped on him.

Roy at least can ledge sweet-spot, has a hitbox on the entirety of his recovery move, his recovery move connects properly, his Blazer isn't just a crappier, multi-hit version of Dolphin Slash, and his air speed isn't just bad for the sake of being bad like the Doc, Falco, and Little Mac's. When Roy gets hit off-stage, he can ledge sweet-spot so well when the others can be closer, but still fall out 'cause screw them having decent recovery moves with good ledge sweet-spotting. Roy's biggest problem for recovering is that Blazer travels slower than Dolphin Slash making it easier to time an edgeguard and because it's his only recovery move, he's got a very linear recovery, but he can angle his Blazer to try for mixups. That being said, if he reaches top air speed, he can choose to land on-stage.

Roy's problem in general is that... Like (Lucina and) Marth, they're not getting rewarded for their spacing. Marth had to be like a surgeon and Roy has to be in your face for kills. Other characters? They can space pretty much however they want and get the same rewards as them. It gets worse when you realize there's characters with the "same range" as them and they're just as or even faster and stronger. Meta Knight does up-close combst far better than Roy can hope for. Oh, Meta Knight's not as strong, raw power-wise, you say? Then how about the Pits? Cloud does spacing better than Marth when outside of some moves like Up Smash, Side Smash, and Fair, Cloud's as fast as Marth and moves faster than Marth while hitting harder. Oh, Cloud's not like Marth... How about the Pits, then? The same can be said about slower, two-handed swordsmen. Ike does what Shulk doesn't. None of them are the same character, but some of them outperform or under-perform when compared to each other.

 

[Charoite]

If Sheik is nerfed in a healthy way, she will still be top tier, so this mean that the main problem or in this case the overturned tool is suppressed (needle storm high knockback growth and fast travel distance), but sheik would still be a very good character and a national threat, but i think some people don't know how much needle storm help sheik as a character with needles sheik not only gets free damage, but harass the opponent in making mistakes, and in that case sheik can convert these mistakes in grabs, that lead to more damage and more juggle situations(even worse in heaves) and when the percent is right sheik can choose comboing full needles into bouncing fish, or get grab to down throw and get the 50/50.

TLDR: Needle storm is very good but not because of the free damage, because can lead to combos, juggles, and kill setups all with being very safe and have low committed.

Nerfing the knockback(or maybe set specific knockback), and the distance of needles proportional with the time to charge the move(full needles would still go far), this would change some matchups to be more even( ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,) other matchups no look to bad(,,,,,,,,), and even make some of them not in sheik favor(,,,,) of course all this depend in how much needle storm is nerfed)