Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Sonicninja115]

What's more disappointing is that you're coming in here and basically ****ting on everybody from on high rather than explaining yourself. Why is Diddy a bad MU? What is there to it?

A lot of people are wondering, you know.

Smooth Criminal

Diddy boards have a MU thread. Shiek was the first one talked about.
Other then that, Diddy has a bad time off stage against Shiek. From what I have seen in ZeRo's and MVDs sets versus Mr. R and such, there worst time is offstage. A needle snipe, drop Nair/Bair/Fair. BF connecting with MF. Uair catching a high recovery.
Diddy had a upside with his kill confirms, and he can also negate an immediate Uair from Shiek with FF Fair. (This loses to Vanish and wait I believe) it isn't impossible, and it is probably somewhere in the 60/40 range, but it is still quite a feat for ZeRo to consistently and solidly beat Shieks with Diddy.

So I guess ZeRo also thinks top players are lazy, since even they fell victims of the 50-50 setup (that last game vs Ranai? he spammed grab and got away with it).

Sheik is incredibly good, and even if you, ZeRo, managed to avoid it with one of the safest, most nimble characters in the game like Diddy, doesn't mean she doesn't need a fix. However minor mid you, probably even overall trivial, but she is a dominant force that is only waiting to be exploited more and more.

Did you notice how many times he had to go for it? How many times it failed throught the set? How many times Ranai got the turnip punish? Ranai knew how to deal with it insanely well, better then most top players IMO. (That is partly due to his insane reaction time probably)

The set-up is very good, but with practice and labbing, it goes from a 50/50 to a 75/25. If I explained that weirdly, it goes from being 2 options, to being 4 or 5. Ranai knew he could Turnip, Jump and airdodge, airdodge, jump and Turnip and do nothing. When watching Ranai, I could tell that he knew when he would die, and what to do to counteract it. At certain Percents, he would let himself get hit, because he knew he wouldn't die. (Plus he didn't want ZeRo to get a read probably) I could be wrong, but this is how I see the set-up happening in that set.

He may charge us $50 to teach us that.

But most characters simply lack approach options, are forced to do something thanks to Needle Storm, and to make this worse, she doesn't even NEED the 50-50 when it is a guaranteed kill on Town and City.
If it were remotely easy to avoid people would have figured it out by now.

The 50$ dollars is actually really good. He is the best player in the game, and thus, it isn't unreasonable to demand a price like that. Other top players ask for 30-40$.

 

[Charoite]

I dont see the problem if they down and a little, happened to , , and all of them are still good in various degrees, if you think that nerfing overturned tools of these two will make you lost national tournaments to mid tiers or low tiers then i will question myself if you are a top player, and remember if you are no content with the nerfs, you can main other top tier.

 

[DblCrest]

Yeah we do.
When somebody comes in here basically saying "lol sheik isn't broken, you're all just lazy arrogant and bad" there really does need to be quite a few responses to tell him how wrong he is.

I dunno seems pretty excessive if we need 'several' responses from people to tell 'one' person how wrong he is.

Don't want it to turn out like what happened whenever a Luigi or Diddy preformed well in a major .People just ganged up on the people that mained the character who dared to say they didn't want them nerfed.

 

[TurboLink]

TurboLink Considering all that, not much. I thought that with him getting a bomb confirm in the most recent patch he'd have a better time getting kills. And in the patch before that that gave him down throw follow-ups and 50-50s at certain percents for u-air, I imagined Link would place more similar to the likes of R.O.B. and DK. But now I finally see that he has inherent design flaws. In fact, most Zelda characters do besides Sheik and Toon Link.

The difference between R.O.B, DK, and Link's grab is that Link's carries the most risk while also being attached to someone whose ground mobility is inferior. Throwing his grab out as often as a R.O.B or DK player might throw out their grab is not wise.

What bomb confirm are you talking about?

 

[Sonicninja115]

The difference between R.O.B, DK, and Link's grab is that Link's carries the most risk while also being attached to someone whose ground mobility is inferior. Throwing his grab out as often as a R.O.B or DK player might throw out their grab is not wise.

What bomb confirm are you talking about?

Does Link have a grab confirm? Arrow-Grab?

 

[TurboLink]

Does Link have a grab confirm? Arrow-Grab?

I don't think arrows have enough hitstun.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I dunno seems pretty excessive if we need 'several' responses from people to tell 'one' person how wrong he is.

Don't want it to turn out like what happened whenever a Luigi or Diddy preformed well in a major .People just ganged up on the people that mained the character who dared to say they didn't want them nerfed.

You must be new here.
Back in the day when personal tier lists were posted, everybody lined up against them (the last one seemed to go by ignored, but it was pretty solid), a lot of questions were done and the poster had to defend their beliefs, however silly.

Yes, people called out, A LOT on their philosophies and impressions, and moreover, their debate skills.
That is this place called the CCI.


Now, back in the day Diddy NEEDED a nerf, it was absolutely necessary because the character was VERY good.
Luigi probably did need one too, I am not sure particularly because he never placed well at big tournaments, but I think they overdid it anyway.

 

[Blue Ninjakoopa]

The difference between R.O.B, DK, and Link's grab is that Link's carries the most risk while also being attached to someone whose ground mobility is inferior. Throwing his grab out as often as a R.O.B or DK player might throw out their grab is not wise.

What bomb confirm are you talking about?

Doesn't Link's bomb combo into the first hit of f-air at kill percents now? The Links in my scene have been raving about it.

 

[Nobie]

Am I the only one who watched Genesis 3 and DIDN'T think it proved that Sheik and ZSS are nigh-unstoppable forces?

Sheik won the tournament, there were some Sheiks and ZSSs in Top 8, and they of course are probably the best characters in the game. Yet many fought against them and came close to winning. Ranai nearly brought it back. DKWill got Top 32. A TOON LINK sent Nairo to Loser's, though one can cite matchup inexperience.

Maybe some nerfs would help, or maybe even making Sheik's mistakes less forgiving, but if the characters are one or two small nerfs from being manageable by a lot of characters, then maybe they're not so crazy in the first place.

 

[TurboLink]

Doesn't Link's bomb combo into the first hit of f-air at kill percents now? The Links in my scene have been raving about it.

Yes, it does. I've done it several times before.

 

[ARISTOS]

Don't want it to turn out like what happened whenever a Luigi or Diddy preformed well in a major .People just ganged up on the people that mained the character who dared to say they didn't want them nerfed.

They did need nerfs though. Whether or not people wanted them does in no way point against the fact that those two characters were overtuned and had a lot of unhealthy characteristics.

Prepatch Diddy has the same neutral as he does now, except then he had an advantage state similar to Ryu when a couple hits=death percent

Luigi was a grappler with almost none of a grappler's weaknesses and had consistent and easy confirms to death on pretty much the entire cast. He was also relatively simple to play.

The 'git gud' argument against nerfs from mains of those characters is insulting and has been dealt with to death. The only people more annoying than these people are the ones who dedicate 6-7 minute long videos to talk about "flaws" so they hope that Sakurai somehow sees the video and buffs their main

 

[TheLegendaryFoxFire]

All of this is easy to say when you main the best character in the game. Try solo maining Bowser, Zelda, Link, Jigglypuff, Marth, Roy, or even Shulk in a national tournament and then come back and tell us what you think.

Then honestly if that is the case you have no reason to complain as you knowingly choice to use the worst characters to fight against Sheik, not the other players fault.

And before, "Well you use Sheik" I (at the moment) solo main Little Mac and I still try my hardest, I study his Frame Data and options, I practice combos and set-ups and all those things. I just don't sit around hoping for nerfs or buffs because that is both lazy and not reliable at all.

 

[DblCrest]

ぱみゅ
I'm still sorta new I suppose. I do recall the stigma tier lists would bring to people bold enough to create them without the discussion to back it up.

ARISTOS
Not saying they didn't need nerfing just the amount of hostility towards some players was ehhhhhh

 

[Luig]

It's really reminds you of how human the top players are when they start making excuses and saying dumb things about why their character shouldn't be nerfed.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Nobie

My point wasn't so much about "nerfs" as it was pointing out "lol you guys are just bad at the game" isn't a very constructive thing to say in the grand scheme of things. It's arrogant, and it indirectly ****s on the people that do work hard and lab things out. You wanna keep tech on the d/l, though? That's fine. Whatever.

And I don't think Sheik is invincible or untouchable. Just overtuned and difficult.

Sonicninja115

I do read stuff, bud. All the time. That wasn't the point of the post you quoted. See above.

Smooth Criminal

 

[TDK]

Sheik, as a character, is designed for a 1v1 environment, just based on the way she plays.

D3 [for example] isn't designed for 1v1's, he's designed for Free-for-alls, where Grabs are less important and you can charge smashes and do other laggy moves with less chance of a punish because of all the chaos.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Nobie

My point wasn't so much about "nerfs" as it was pointing out "lol you guys are just bad at the game" isn't a very constructive thing to say in the grand scheme of things. It's arrogant, and it indirectly ****s on the people that do work hard and lab things out. You wanna keep tech on the d/l, though? That's fine. Whatever.

And I don't think Sheik is invincible or untouchable. Just overtuned and difficult.

Sonicninja115

I do read stuff, bud. All the time. That wasn't the point of the post you quoted. See above.

Smooth Criminal

I was just putting my input on the MU, not saying you should look for it...

One point with Shiek is that she isn't the almighty pick her and win character. She is good, she has more options, she has a lot of really nice things, but it is gaureenteed for you to win. Look at how many Shieks were in top 32, and then look at top 64. Most sheiks drowned pretty early. I believe we had 6 Shieks in top 32, and one or two were only secondaries. Imagine Ranai playing ZSS or Shiek though, he would be insane. I am pretty sure he and ZeRo would be dead even.

 

[|RK|]

Sheik, as a character, is designed for a 1v1 environment, just based on the way she plays.

D3 [for example] isn't designed for 1v1's, he's designed for Free-for-alls, where Grabs are less important and you can charge smashes and do other laggy moves with less chance of a punish because of all the chaos.

I really think we're reaching with this distinctions. I doubt any characters were designed for one mode or the other. It's just that heavies tend to do better in chaos as a result of their weight (and lack of speed) than lightweights. TBH, it feels like saying Ganon was designed for For Glory.

 

[Djent]

Spoiler: Tier List

S
A+
A
A-
B+
B
B-
C+
C
C-
D
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Spoiler: Explanations

First, I should mention that my confidence decreases further down this list. So if I ranked your favorite character in C- and you think they belong in C+, I may just be ignorant of what they're capable of, or I might just be waiting for someone to put the theory into practice. Eventually I had to stop agonizing over the details and make a few tough decisions, so it's possible that I screwed a few things up. Please don't read too much into it. However, feel free to hound me on the higher rankings, because I'm more confident in those and much more willing to defend them.

The "S" in S-rank does not stand for "Sheik;" she just happens to be the only character lacking any notable weaknesses or disadvantaged matchups. Though she is not omnipresent, she is obviously a strong determinant of viability. It has traditionally been expected that a character ranked at S centralizes the game, and it's hard to argue that she does not.

The A-ranks are for characters who are viable, i.e. consistently capable of high placements at major tournaments. A+ characters have even or close-to-even matchups vs. Sheik and only minor otherwise, and are capable of dominating the lower-tiers in a similar fashion as an S-rank character. ZSS and Rosa obviously fit these criteria, and though I was initially on the fence about it, I'd also argue Diddy does as well. A characters either have strong spreads overall but lack the dominating quality of A+ against the lower tiers (arguably MK and Ryu), or dominate low tiers just fine but struggle noticeably with one of the higher-ranked characters (Sonic and Fox). A- is for characters who are still clearly viable, but who either have one or two matchups where a secondary is strongly advisable (Ness, Villager, Pika), or (in the case of Mario) just don't win any notable matches against any higher-tiered characters.

The B-ranks are for characters who are borderline viable, but still capable of going deep in a major given the right conditions, and can often be seen dominating at the local and regional levels. These characters might be held back by several bad matchups, or just otherwise have an underwhelming spread. However, they still possess enough advantages that they can be worth using. In particular, B+ features several characters who can serve as counterpicks to certain A-tiers (Luigi, Wario, Falcon). The same is true of a select few characters in B and B-, such as Ike and Mega-Man. Others (Greninja and the Pits) are quite well-rounded but also don't win anything notable, and the small deficits seem to add up. The higher a character is ranked here, the more consistently they have been shown to be able to overcome their limitations, and the more consistently they have shown utility within certain matchups.

C-rank characters are not "crappy;" they're just noticeably limited in some way. A number of them exceeded my initial expectations thanks to a dedicated few players (Palutena, Mac, D3). Others have shown that they can potentially be used as counterpicks despite losing to a lot of good characters (Doc, Samus). Still others possess oppressive combo games but glaringly flawed neutral (Samus again, Falco, Bowser Jr.). A few of these characters have been notably buffed (Bowser, Link, Charizard), but it remains to be seen how important those changes will be in the long run. I should admit that I was a little uncomfortable ranking Mewtwo and Lucas here, but can't justify putting them higher due to low representation and their somewhat polarizing designs.

D-rank implies some degree of dysfunctionality, but by no means does it imply that either character ranked here is hopeless. Both Zelda and Jiggs have shown some recent degree of promise thanks to Ven and Dol, respectively. However, I would never encourage someone to main either of them.

 

[Funen1]

Sheik's good but people (players) are lazy, ignorant and just choose to complain rather than learn what their options are majority of the time and that is a poor mindset in competitive play that happens very often

its much easier to come in an online forum and complain and write long posts of why sheik is here or there than simply sit down and learn your options in every scenario

its disappointing

I'm far from a pro, so I know I can't speak reliably on Sheik's position in the metagame, and I won't touch on that here. The main thing from this message I would really caution against is making such a broad generalization. Yes, that kind of mindset you described does happen among players, and it does deserve to be called out when it pops up, but can anybody really say they've met enough of the fanbase around the world to say it truly happens "very often"? Your wording also implies a sort of malicious reason for people not figuring out the Sheik MU, when other reasons could exist as well. Maybe some people out there are legitimately trying to understand the MU but end up not "succeeding" at it to the same extent as the pros, and for a reason you can't necessarily blame them for, i.e., maybe they simply haven't spent a comparable amount of time playing top-level Sheiks yet.

Again, I don't disagree with the general point you're making, just that it can also sometimes be all too easy to fall back on blanket statements and end up unintentionally insulting a disproportionate amount of people. That's all.

Am I the only one who watched Genesis 3 and DIDN'T think it proved that Sheik and ZSS are nigh-unstoppable forces?

Sheik won the tournament, there were some Sheiks and ZSSs in Top 8, and they of course are probably the best characters in the game. Yet many fought against them and came close to winning. Ranai nearly brought it back. DKWill got Top 32. A TOON LINK sent Nairo to Loser's, though one can cite matchup inexperience.

Maybe some nerfs would help, or maybe even making Sheik's mistakes less forgiving, but if the characters are one or two small nerfs from being manageable by a lot of characters, then maybe they're not so crazy in the first place.

I pretty much felt the same way. A lot of the things I saw in top 8 in particular could be mainly attributed to the players' great skills, and not just the character being like a "win button" for any Joe Shmoe Pro out there. To add another example to your list, FOW still put up a good fight in top 8, even in defeat. Player skill is all too real and can just as easily affect games beyond how a matchup looks "on paper".

 

[meleebrawler]

I really think we're reaching with this distinctions. I doubt any characters were designed for one mode or the other. It's just that heavies tend to do better in chaos as a result of their weight (and lack of speed) than lightweights. TBH, it feels like saying Little Mac was designed for For Glory.

Fixed.

 

[Peppermint1201]

TurboLink

Not true, Europe has Long0uw. That being said, Izaw is from a Scandinavian country iirc and Long0uw lives in Germany.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Spoiler: Tier List

S
A+
A
A-
B+
B
B-
C+
C
C-
D
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Spoiler: Explanations

First, I should mention that my confidence decreases further down this list. So if I ranked your favorite character in C- and you think they belong in C+, I may just be ignorant of what they're capable of, or I might just be waiting for someone to put the theory into practice. Eventually I had to stop agonizing over the details and make a few tough decisions, so it's possible that I screwed a few things up. Please don't read too much into it. However, feel free to hound me on the higher rankings, because I'm more confident in those and much more willing to defend them.

The "S" in S-rank does not stand for "Sheik;" she just happens to be the only character lacking any notable weaknesses or disadvantaged matchups. Though she is not omnipresent, she is obviously a strong determinant of viability. It has traditionally been expected that a character ranked at S centralizes the game, and it's hard to argue that she does not.

The A-ranks are for characters who are viable, i.e. consistently capable of high placements at major tournaments. A+ characters have even or close-to-even matchups vs. Sheik and only minor otherwise, and are capable of dominating the lower-tiers in a similar fashion as an S-rank character. ZSS and Rosa obviously fit these criteria, and though I was initially on the fence about it, I'd also argue Diddy does as well. A characters either have strong spreads overall but lack the dominating quality of A+ against the lower tiers (arguably MK and Ryu), or dominate low tiers just fine but struggle noticeably with one of the higher-ranked characters (Sonic and Fox). A- is for characters who are still clearly viable, but who either have one or two matchups where a secondary is strongly advisable (Ness, Villager, Pika), or (in the case of Mario) just don't win any notable matches against any higher-tiered characters.

The B-ranks are for characters who are borderline viable, but still capable of going deep in a major given the right conditions, and can often be seen dominating at the local and regional levels. These characters might be held back by several bad matchups, or just otherwise have an underwhelming spread. However, they still possess enough advantages that they can be worth using. In particular, B+ features several characters who can serve as counterpicks to certain A-tiers (Luigi, Wario, Falcon). The same is true of a select few characters in B and B-, such as Ike and Mega-Man. Others (Greninja and the Pits) are quite well-rounded but also don't win anything notable, and the small deficits seem to add up. The higher a character is ranked here, the more consistently they have been shown to be able to overcome their limitations, and the more consistently they have shown utility within certain matchups.

C-rank characters are not "crappy;" they're just noticeably limited in some way. A number of them exceeded my initial expectations thanks to a dedicated few players (Palutena, Mac, D3). Others have shown that they can potentially be used as counterpicks despite losing to a lot of good characters (Doc, Samus). Still others possess oppressive combo games but glaringly flawed neutral (Samus again, Falco, Bowser Jr.). A few of these characters have been notably buffed (Bowser, Link, Charizard), but it remains to be seen how important those changes will be in the long run. I should admit that I was a little uncomfortable ranking Mewtwo and Lucas here, but can't justify putting them higher due to low representation and their somewhat polarizing designs.

D-rank implies some degree of dysfunctionality, but by no means does it imply that either character ranked here is hopeless. Both Zelda and Jiggs have shown some recent degree of promise thanks to Ven and Dol, respectively. However, I would never encourage someone to main either of them.

This is one of the best tier lists I have seen. It definetly reflects the current Metagame. Diddy could be a bit lower, but that is really up for debate.

I'm far from a pro, so I know I can't speak reliably on Sheik's position in the metagame, and I won't touch on that here. The main thing from this message I would really caution against is making such a broad generalization. Yes, that kind of mindset you described does happen among players, and it does deserve to be called out when it pops up, but can anybody really say they've met enough of the fanbase around the world to say it truly happens "very often"? Your wording also implies a sort of malicious reason for people not figuring out the Sheik MU, when other reasons could exist as well. Maybe some people out there are legitimately trying to understand the MU but end up not "succeeding" at it to the same extent as the pros, and for a reason you can't necessarily blame them for, i.e., maybe they simply haven't spent a comparable amount of time playing top-level Sheiks yet.

Again, I don't disagree with the general point you're making, just that it can also sometimes be all too easy to fall back on blanket statements and end up unintentionally insulting a disproportionate amount of people. That's all.


I pretty much felt the same way. A lot of the things I saw in top 8 in particular could be mainly attributed to the players' great skills, and not just the character being like a "win button" for any Joe Shmoe Pro out there. To add another example to your list, FOW still put up a good fight in top 8, even in defeat. Player skill is all too real and can just as easily affect games beyond how a matchup looks "on paper".

I was looking through FOW's bracket, and compared to the other top 8's, it looks kinda free...
He had his hard matches in Larry Lurr and Hyuga, but he didn't fight too many truly good opponents. I look at ZeRo's or Nairo's bracket and there are just more high level opponents. Is this because Nairo was in FOW's bracket but Nairo lost? As well as Esam?

 

[Charoite]

we dont know that, the only thing that sakurai has talked about balance is how the character feels, but not the mode, please dont spread misinformation . And yes , are not unbeatable, but that doesn't mean that they not invalidate characters,
would you agree that balance them to be more close to the other high tiers(,,,,) would be bad for the game???

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Djent

Cloud is so good that he's in shrug tier. Makes perfect sense!

Great list. I'm glad you're part of the growing list of people that finally 'get' D3. My only real question is Ryu. Still high tier, but you don't think he has the chops to be hanging with the other titans?

Smooth Criminal

 

[TurboLink]

Fox is among the quickest and nimblest of the Smash Bros. characters. His speed is offset by low firepower, however, and he's better at one-on-one fights than melees with multiple foes. His Blaster is unique: it does damage but it doesn't make enemies flinch. His Fox illusion is best used as a surprise attack.

This is from Fox's Melee trophy. Take that how you will but I think some characters are more designed around 1 vs. 1 more than others.

 

[Y2Kay]

Spoiler: Tier List

S
A+
A
A-
B+
B
B-
C+
C
C-
D
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Spoiler: Explanations

First, I should mention that my confidence decreases further down this list. So if I ranked your favorite character in C- and you think they belong in C+, I may just be ignorant of what they're capable of, or I might just be waiting for someone to put the theory into practice. Eventually I had to stop agonizing over the details and make a few tough decisions, so it's possible that I screwed a few things up. Please don't read too much into it. However, feel free to hound me on the higher rankings, because I'm more confident in those and much more willing to defend them.

The "S" in S-rank does not stand for "Sheik;" she just happens to be the only character lacking any notable weaknesses or disadvantaged matchups. Though she is not omnipresent, she is obviously a strong determinant of viability. It has traditionally been expected that a character ranked at S centralizes the game, and it's hard to argue that she does not.

The A-ranks are for characters who are viable, i.e. consistently capable of high placements at major tournaments. A+ characters have even or close-to-even matchups vs. Sheik and only minor otherwise, and are capable of dominating the lower-tiers in a similar fashion as an S-rank character. ZSS and Rosa obviously fit these criteria, and though I was initially on the fence about it, I'd also argue Diddy does as well. A characters either have strong spreads overall but lack the dominating quality of A+ against the lower tiers (arguably MK and Ryu), or dominate low tiers just fine but struggle noticeably with one of the higher-ranked characters (Sonic and Fox). A- is for characters who are still clearly viable, but who either have one or two matchups where a secondary is strongly advisable (Ness, Villager, Pika), or (in the case of Mario) just don't win any notable matches against any higher-tiered characters.

The B-ranks are for characters who are borderline viable, but still capable of going deep in a major given the right conditions, and can often be seen dominating at the local and regional levels. These characters might be held back by several bad matchups, or just otherwise have an underwhelming spread. However, they still possess enough advantages that they can be worth using. In particular, B+ features several characters who can serve as counterpicks to certain A-tiers (Luigi, Wario, Falcon). The same is true of a select few characters in B and B-, such as Ike and Mega-Man. Others (Greninja and the Pits) are quite well-rounded but also don't win anything notable, and the small deficits seem to add up. The higher a character is ranked here, the more consistently they have been shown to be able to overcome their limitations, and the more consistently they have shown utility within certain matchups.

C-rank characters are not "crappy;" they're just noticeably limited in some way. A number of them exceeded my initial expectations thanks to a dedicated few players (Palutena, Mac, D3). Others have shown that they can potentially be used as counterpicks despite losing to a lot of good characters (Doc, Samus). Still others possess oppressive combo games but glaringly flawed neutral (Samus again, Falco, Bowser Jr.). A few of these characters have been notably buffed (Bowser, Link, Charizard), but it remains to be seen how important those changes will be in the long run. I should admit that I was a little uncomfortable ranking Mewtwo and Lucas here, but can't justify putting them higher due to low representation and their somewhat polarizing designs.

D-rank implies some degree of dysfunctionality, but by no means does it imply that either character ranked here is hopeless. Both Zelda and Jiggs have shown some recent degree of promise thanks to Ven and Dol, respectively. However, I would never encourage someone to main either of them.

I'm kinda not feeling Zard's placement, On paper he looks like C+ or C tier character, but he has no mains that really play him. The same could be said about Roy too.

Man, why do I have such an affinity for unrepresented characters? () I honestly am not trying to be a hipster, but it happens nearly ever game

 

[Djent]

This is one of the best tier lists I have seen. It definetly reflects the current Metagame. Diddy could be a bit lower, but that is really up for debate.

I was looking through FOW's bracket, and compared to the other top 8's, it looks kinda free...
He had his hard matches in Larry Lurr and Hyuga, but he didn't fight too many truly good opponents. I look at ZeRo's or Nairo's bracket and there are just more high level opponents. Is this because Nairo was in FOW's bracket but Nairo lost? As well as Esam?

RE: my list, thanks!

FOW's bracket was made easier by the fact that ESAM and Nairo lost, but he also beat both of the players who put them into losers, and his wins on Larry and Hyuga were super convincing (3-0). So I was still impressed overall.

Djent

Cloud is so good that he's in shrug tier. Makes perfect sense!

Great list. I'm glad you're part of the growing list of people that finally 'get' D3. My only real question is Ryu. Still high tier, but you don't think he has the chops to be hanging with the other titans?

Smooth Criminal

I admit, I was one of the people hyping Ryu hard after 1.1.1, but he seems to struggle against a certain type of projectile-based character: Mega-Man and Villager give him trouble, and Toon Link might also win. Time will also tell if he loses to Diddy like some people theorized after this weekend.

EDIT: I know Cloud is good, and I strongly suspect he is very good, but my opinion on him is way less calibrated than my opinions on the rest of the top 20 or so.

I'm kinda not feeling Zard's placement, Oh paper he looks like C+ or C tier character, but he has no mains that really play him. The same could be said about Roy too.

Honestly, yeah. I just couldn't bring myself to put them over other characters who also had niche applications that have proven themselves.

 

[Funen1]

I was looking through FOW's bracket, and compared to the other top 8's, it looks kinda free...
He had his hard matches in Larry Lurr and Hyuga, but he didn't fight too many truly good opponents. I look at ZeRo's or Nairo's bracket and there are just more high level opponents. Is this because Nairo was in FOW's bracket but Nairo lost? As well as Esam?

I said "in top 8", precisely for that reason (not to discredit anyone he faced before top 8 obviously, just going off how he performed against the players that ended up knocking him out, which were among the very best players in the world).

 

[TDK]

Djent - Duck hunt in B- tier? You say he's "Borderline Viable" based on what the explanations say, yet Duck Hunt has glaring issues, almost no representation, and no results outside of MVD back at APEX.

I also don't think Puff is the worst character. Yes, she's awful, but there are characters who are even more awful. Jigglypuff has great edgeguarding, even in a game where half the cast gets back for free, a great recovery, and solid aerials.

Mac above Doc, Falco, Kirby, Roy, and Shulk also seems very strange.

The list looks really solid otherwise.

Anyone want to comment on mine? Pretty please?

 

[BetaDjinn]

Djent This is one of the better lists posted. The top tiers look great. I think your lower tiers are questionable, but frankly they are the hardest part of the list to order accurately, while also being the least important.

On: She's no but is definitely dominant. If there are no patch changes, more people will switch to her and she'll start to take more and more spots in Top 32s. I foresee her turning out a lot like : one of the hardest characters in the game, but too many strong options lead to dominance and centralization as the game develops.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

@DJ Arcatek (DJ Jack) has mentioned something similar in the past about projectile characters being a nuisance. Ryu does struggle getting in and playing his game against those characters. Maybe ROB, too? 'Course the dude plays 8bitMan on the regular and seems to fare well.

Diddy...I dunno, Ryu seems like he has some **** to keep him straight? Or is it Diddy's item play that futzes with Ryu's footsies/neutral game? Is that the glaring problem? Mobility and frame data accounted for, obviously, 'cause I think Ryu can sorta stand up to that with his own (almost godlike) buttons?

Smooth Criminal

 

[Sonicninja115]

@DJ Arcatek (DJ Jack) has mentioned something similar in the past about projectile characters being a nuisance. Ryu does struggle getting in and playing his game against those characters. Maybe ROB, too? 'Course the dude plays 8bitMan on the regular and seems to fare well.

Diddy...I dunno, Ryu seems like he has some **** to keep him straight? Or is it Diddy's item play that futzes with Ryu's footsies/neutral game? Is that the glaring problem? Mobility and frame data accounted for, obviously, 'cause I think Ryu can sorta stand up to that with his own (almost godlike) buttons?

Smooth Criminal

Since Ryu is almost always walking, wouldn't that negate some of Diddy's banana game?

 

[ARISTOS]

Spoiler: Tier List

S
A+
A
A-
B+
B
B-
C+
C
C-
D
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Spoiler: Explanations

First, I should mention that my confidence decreases further down this list. So if I ranked your favorite character in C- and you think they belong in C+, I may just be ignorant of what they're capable of, or I might just be waiting for someone to put the theory into practice. Eventually I had to stop agonizing over the details and make a few tough decisions, so it's possible that I screwed a few things up. Please don't read too much into it. However, feel free to hound me on the higher rankings, because I'm more confident in those and much more willing to defend them.

The "S" in S-rank does not stand for "Sheik;" she just happens to be the only character lacking any notable weaknesses or disadvantaged matchups. Though she is not omnipresent, she is obviously a strong determinant of viability. It has traditionally been expected that a character ranked at S centralizes the game, and it's hard to argue that she does not.

The A-ranks are for characters who are viable, i.e. consistently capable of high placements at major tournaments. A+ characters have even or close-to-even matchups vs. Sheik and only minor otherwise, and are capable of dominating the lower-tiers in a similar fashion as an S-rank character. ZSS and Rosa obviously fit these criteria, and though I was initially on the fence about it, I'd also argue Diddy does as well. A characters either have strong spreads overall but lack the dominating quality of A+ against the lower tiers (arguably MK and Ryu), or dominate low tiers just fine but struggle noticeably with one of the higher-ranked characters (Sonic and Fox). A- is for characters who are still clearly viable, but who either have one or two matchups where a secondary is strongly advisable (Ness, Villager, Pika), or (in the case of Mario) just don't win any notable matches against any higher-tiered characters.

The B-ranks are for characters who are borderline viable, but still capable of going deep in a major given the right conditions, and can often be seen dominating at the local and regional levels. These characters might be held back by several bad matchups, or just otherwise have an underwhelming spread. However, they still possess enough advantages that they can be worth using. In particular, B+ features several characters who can serve as counterpicks to certain A-tiers (Luigi, Wario, Falcon). The same is true of a select few characters in B and B-, such as Ike and Mega-Man. Others (Greninja and the Pits) are quite well-rounded but also don't win anything notable, and the small deficits seem to add up. The higher a character is ranked here, the more consistently they have been shown to be able to overcome their limitations, and the more consistently they have shown utility within certain matchups.

C-rank characters are not "crappy;" they're just noticeably limited in some way. A number of them exceeded my initial expectations thanks to a dedicated few players (Palutena, Mac, D3). Others have shown that they can potentially be used as counterpicks despite losing to a lot of good characters (Doc, Samus). Still others possess oppressive combo games but glaringly flawed neutral (Samus again, Falco, Bowser Jr.). A few of these characters have been notably buffed (Bowser, Link, Charizard), but it remains to be seen how important those changes will be in the long run. I should admit that I was a little uncomfortable ranking Mewtwo and Lucas here, but can't justify putting them higher due to low representation and their somewhat polarizing designs.

D-rank implies some degree of dysfunctionality, but by no means does it imply that either character ranked here is hopeless. Both Zelda and Jiggs have shown some recent degree of promise thanks to Ven and Dol, respectively. However, I would never encourage someone to main either of them.

Spoiler: When the tier list you worked on gets utterly ignored

Good list though. I'm surpirsed by your Falcon/Luigi placing though, IMO those two are better placed in B as all the characters in B+ seem to have better MUs with the top characters.

Since I'm in the mood for lists:

Spoiler: Peach's MUs

-2:
-1:
0: /
+1:

Undecided: +-==-=

+ means it would probably be advantage, - is disadvantage, = is even; all based if I had to decide today.
[/spoilers]

 

[HeavyLobster]

Here we go with more complaints (like after every major lol)

Did no one see the set where I played Mr R with Diddy Kong and won at G3? Or maybe any other tournament where I beat a top level Sheik in a solid fashion effectively avoiding down throw setups, needles and edgeguards and like everything LOL with Diddy Kong (a bad match up too btw, it's not a close one like rosa sheik or sheik mario etc)

Did no one see the set where Armada beat Mango with Peach at G3? Or maybe at any other tournament where *insert top Melee player here* beat a top Fox in a solid fashion? Clearly in a world where Melee could be patched Fox would be perfectly well balanced and would need absolutely no nerfs of any kind. I mean Sheik only got twice the number of top 64 placings at Genesis as the next best character.

 

[Macchiato]

Spoiler: Tier List

S
A+
A
A-
B+
B
B-
C+
C
C-
D
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Spoiler: Explanations

First, I should mention that my confidence decreases further down this list. So if I ranked your favorite character in C- and you think they belong in C+, I may just be ignorant of what they're capable of, or I might just be waiting for someone to put the theory into practice. Eventually I had to stop agonizing over the details and make a few tough decisions, so it's possible that I screwed a few things up. Please don't read too much into it. However, feel free to hound me on the higher rankings, because I'm more confident in those and much more willing to defend them.

The "S" in S-rank does not stand for "Sheik;" she just happens to be the only character lacking any notable weaknesses or disadvantaged matchups. Though she is not omnipresent, she is obviously a strong determinant of viability. It has traditionally been expected that a character ranked at S centralizes the game, and it's hard to argue that she does not.

The A-ranks are for characters who are viable, i.e. consistently capable of high placements at major tournaments. A+ characters have even or close-to-even matchups vs. Sheik and only minor otherwise, and are capable of dominating the lower-tiers in a similar fashion as an S-rank character. ZSS and Rosa obviously fit these criteria, and though I was initially on the fence about it, I'd also argue Diddy does as well. A characters either have strong spreads overall but lack the dominating quality of A+ against the lower tiers (arguably MK and Ryu), or dominate low tiers just fine but struggle noticeably with one of the higher-ranked characters (Sonic and Fox). A- is for characters who are still clearly viable, but who either have one or two matchups where a secondary is strongly advisable (Ness, Villager, Pika), or (in the case of Mario) just don't win any notable matches against any higher-tiered characters.

The B-ranks are for characters who are borderline viable, but still capable of going deep in a major given the right conditions, and can often be seen dominating at the local and regional levels. These characters might be held back by several bad matchups, or just otherwise have an underwhelming spread. However, they still possess enough advantages that they can be worth using. In particular, B+ features several characters who can serve as counterpicks to certain A-tiers (Luigi, Wario, Falcon). The same is true of a select few characters in B and B-, such as Ike and Mega-Man. Others (Greninja and the Pits) are quite well-rounded but also don't win anything notable, and the small deficits seem to add up. The higher a character is ranked here, the more consistently they have been shown to be able to overcome their limitations, and the more consistently they have shown utility within certain matchups.

C-rank characters are not "crappy;" they're just noticeably limited in some way. A number of them exceeded my initial expectations thanks to a dedicated few players (Palutena, Mac, D3). Others have shown that they can potentially be used as counterpicks despite losing to a lot of good characters (Doc, Samus). Still others possess oppressive combo games but glaringly flawed neutral (Samus again, Falco, Bowser Jr.). A few of these characters have been notably buffed (Bowser, Link, Charizard), but it remains to be seen how important those changes will be in the long run. I should admit that I was a little uncomfortable ranking Mewtwo and Lucas here, but can't justify putting them higher due to low representation and their somewhat polarizing designs.

D-rank implies some degree of dysfunctionality, but by no means does it imply that either character ranked here is hopeless. Both Zelda and Jiggs have shown some recent degree of promise thanks to Ven and Dol, respectively. However, I would never encourage someone to main either of them.

I feel like Zelda should be higher than Charizard and Ganon just for the sole fact that she gets more results.

 

[FullMoon]

+-==-=

Smash calculus, makes just as much sense as the game itself.

Also how the hell does Greninja have a +2 on Peach.

 

[HeavyLobster]

The curse will soon be broken.

Shh. Wait until we get buffed next patch, then we strike swiftly and without mercy.

 

[DblCrest]

Djent
I'm curious about your placements of Robin, Kirby and Duck Hunt

 

[Seagull Joe]

Top 15, but yeah. Cloud is a great character with room to grow. I feel like with that growth, however, counterplay is going to emerge that presses Cloud's eminent weaknesses to the fore. Mr. R's surgical play versus Komo should be a testament to the beginnings of this.

@Fatmanonice

Samus and Shulk are definitely better than D3, bud. Lucina is also definitely worse than he is.

Smooth Criminal

Disagree.

Damn, I didn't know Big D made it that far. Amazing stuff from him.

Does make me wonder where our penguin friend fully fits in at. I'm pretty convinced he's really poorly off, but how bad is another question. Might be above Smash 4's definition of "garbage tier" maybe? Maybe?

He's definitely above that. You're just not gonna see him break even (e.g. mid-tier) any time soon.

Also helps that Big D is nothing short of amazing on his own as a player. M2K isn't the only notable person he's taken down in this game, after all.

Quick edit:

@Gheb_01

jokes aside, there's Villyness, MJG (whomp whomp whomp, though), and a few others. Villyness being the major notable one besides Ranai.

Smooth Criminal

BigD used mainly . Sorry to burst your bubble.