Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[HonorH]

Why are people placing Rosalina at 3rd best when it's just Dabuz really pushing her meta forward?

Does this mean Villager is also a top 5 character?

If Leo was there and he got top 8 are we also going to flip flop and say MetaKnight is a top 5 character?

When are we going to separate player skill from actual character strength?

Because I see almost none of that going on here.

A lot of people forget that for the very very tippy top players (Nairo, Dabuz, Zero) this is there main source of income, which is winning tournaments. Which means they are going to put THOUSANDS of hours into this game, more so than anyone here. So I can see where Zero is coming from with the "Git Gud" sentiments, because that's what he did. If Dabuz said the same thing he'd be perfectly justified, because I don't know about ya'll but...Dabuz was looking like the only Rosalina there putting in work.

I mean, Hungrybox makes Jigglypuff look like a gotdamn god when we know otherwise that it's simply player skill and absolute dedication. He got good with the character he wanted to use. Then put in the work to fight the absolute uphill battle against armies of Marths, Shieks, and the Spacies.

At this point the only reason Zero is telling people to get good is because for the most part...it's not the character at the level these guys are at right now. It's pure skill level. I mean, how else is Zero still wining the Diddy vs Shiek matchup? He's the only one making that matchup look winnable, because I haven't seen a single Diddy beat Mr R or Void, unless you have some footage of MVD doing it. Which is also part of the reason why he's saying get good. Because he has. Ranai has. Dabuz has.

I absolutely think in a F10 set Ranai would take it over Zero, simply because I believe the pure skill level Ranai is at just that damn good. And he's would be using Villager.

Villager.


Effing. Villager.

I mean, I don't know what else to say other than to put in the same amount of work the top 4 guys do. Then complain, but at the level these guys are at they aren't complaining. They are sucking it up and getting good with the characters they want to play with. Toon Link almost made it to Top 8. Peach made it to Top 32. Donkey Kong made it to Top 32. Peach made it to Top 32. Pit made it to Top 16.

No one is disputing the fact that Shiek is a good character, but maybe, just maybe, we should be playing against the players more and stop focusing so much on the characters? Matchups and knowing which tools are to use are important, but it's not as important as remembering that you are facing the player across from you, not just the character.

 

[Deleted member]

Why are people placing Rosalina at 3rd best when it's just Dabuz really pushing her meta forward?

Dabuz being the only one to push Rosalina's meta forward is simply untrue, she has a good amount of other notable players like Abadango (even if his main man is moreso MK these days), falln, Rayquaza and Smash G0D.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Counting Abadango as a Rosalina player is kind of silly. Japan has a handful of good ones though, especially Kirihara and ikep. She does have a broader playerbase bringing home strong results compared to Villager.

I don't think she's the 3rd best character but honestly, I couldn't name any character as 3rd with confidence.

 

[HonorH]

Dabuz being the only one to push Rosalina's meta forward is simply untrue, she has a good amount of other notable players like Abadango (even if his main man is moreso MK these days), falln, Rayquaza and Smash G0D.

So these guys are also capable of beating Ranai, Zero, Nairo, and Void?

No disrespect to those guys, but if it was just those guys and no Dabuz, would ANYONE still be saying she's a top 3 character?

 

[HoSmash4]

Dabuz being the only one to push Rosalina's meta forward is simply untrue, she has a good amount of other notable players like Abadango (even if his main man is moreso MK these days), falln, Rayquaza and Smash G0D.

I'm going to assume he came to this assumption because he was the sole top 32 roaalina. Falln got gatekept by Ito and Dabuz didn't face abadango but he defeated Nairo so I think he'd best abadango as well honestly.

 

[Xeze]

Why are people placing Rosalina at 3rd best when it's just Dabuz really pushing her meta forward?

Does this mean Villager is also a top 5 character?

Why do you think people place Mario as a top 10 character? Because of Ally.

 

[HoSmash4]

Why do you think people place Mario as a top 10 character? Because of Ally.

Mario has results in the majority of regions due to his supposed 'pick and play' gameplay

 

[HonorH]

Counting Abadango as a Rosalina player is kind of silly. Japan has a handful of good ones though, especially Kirihara and ikep. She does have a broader playerbase bringing home strong results compared to Villager.

I don't think she's the 3rd best character but honestly, I couldn't name any character as 3rd with confidence.

That's fine I have no problem with that opinion. Does anyone even need to be third honestly?

Player skill tends to affect tier list in rather volatile ways is all I'm getting at. And when you reach the level these guys are at it just...it doesn't matter. Cuz now they are playing against the player rather than the character the majority of the time since they know the matchup, so now they can focus on the opponent rather than worry about whether a tool is oppressive or not.

You get what I'm saying?

Why do you think people place Mario as a top 10 character? Because of Ally.

So you're saying it's player skill then?

Cuz if you take Ally out of the equation not a single Mario made top 32, but a DK, Peach, Toon Link, and Wii Fit did.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

So you're saying it's player skill then?

Cuz if you take Ally out of the equation not a single Mario made top 32, but a DK, Peach, Toon Link, and Wii Fit did.

I mean, if you take the DK, Peach, Toon Link and Wii Fit out of the equasion then none of them made top 8 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[~ Gheb ~]

So these guys are also capable of beating Ranai, Zero, Nairo, and Void?

ikep has beaten Ranai at a japanese tourney before I believe.
Kirihara placed 4th at Umebura FAT outplacing the likes of 9B, Ally and Vinnie in the process. He also beat Edge's Sheik who's arguably on a similar level as Void.
dabuz does have two set wins against Nairo but his overall record against him is still dreadful and I don't think he's beaen Zero any time recently.

Even though the other Rosalina players are clearly not on dabuz level, especially compared to his G3 performance, there are enough of them to give us an idea how good the character is. The 5th best Rosalina player - which is falln in my opinion - is still closer or about as close to dabuz as the second best Villager is to Ranai.

Comparing Villager to Mario or Pikachu in terms of results and representation makes a lot more sense imo.

 

[HonorH]

I mean, if you take the DK, Peach, Toon Link and Wii Fit out of the equasion then none of them made top 8 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Yup. And the point I'm getting at is that.....none of them were good enough to beat those who stood in there way of victory. Instead of hoping for nerfs, or thinking of ways to nerf characters, they will go back to the lab, attend more tournaments, and level up. In other words get good.

Shiek is not the shenanigan character that Diddy Kong was before he got nerfed. She actually requires skill to use (I mean down throw up air on Diddy Kong was bonkers). And if a Shiek is beating you...it's probably because that Shiek is better than you has a player when it's all said and done (unless you're playing online, then you have to factor in lag or she has a convincing winning matchup against your character and is allowed to make more mistakes/get in easier).

I mean we all know how the D3 vs Megaman matchup works right?

Or the Villager/Rosalina vs Ness matchup right?

 

[Y2Kay]

I feel like Zelda should be above Charizard due to being less of a walking bullseye, if anything.

So? You guys overrate how much his size holds him back, it drives me borderline insane.

First of all, Zard's hurt box isn't that big. His wings and tail are intangible.

Secondly, Zelda ain't tiny either. She's really tall, but doesn't have any of the weight to back it up.

Zard does have redeeming qualities. Good range, power, ground speed, combos, recovery, and survivability. Why do people always gloss over them?

Being functional with a big hitbox, is not worse than being dysfunctional with a smaller hitbox.

 

[HonorH]

ikep has beaten Ranai at a japanese tourney before I believe.
Kirihara placed 4th at Umebura FAT outplacing the likes of 9B, Ally and Vinnie in the process. He also beat Edge's Sheik who's arguably on a similar level as Void.
dabuz does have two set wins against Nairo but his overall record against him is still dreadful and I don't think he's beaen Zero any time recently.

Even though the other Rosalina players are clearly not on dabuz level, especially compared to his G3 performance, there are enough of them to give us an idea how good the character is. The 5th best Rosalina player - which is falln in my opinion - is still closer or about as close to dabuz as the second best Villager is to Ranai.

Comparing Villager to Mario or Pikachu in terms of results and representation makes a lot more sense imo.

Thank you for taking my post seriously, as it was a genuine question I was asking.

As far as Dabuz goes, compared to the level he was at when he was taking all those 3-0's to Nairo AND Zero to beating Nairo convincingly and taking Zero to last game in a set it's clear he's been labbing extremely hard to get where he is and to not acknowledge the work he put in to get there and just rest it all at his character's feet makes me kinda mad.

That's a great point about that last bit. You do see where I'm coming from with the player skill vs character though right?

I just don't see why people took offense to the "Git Gud" when Shiek is not nearly as vomit inducing as Brawl Metaknight and that if you do "Git Gud" you can in fact beat Shiek/and or ZSS.

Now it's just a matter of getting good enough to beat Zero, which is where the real problem lies IMO.

 

[ChikiLucario]

Yup. And the point I'm getting at is that.....none of them were good enough to beat those who stood in there way of victory. Instead of hoping for nerfs, or thinking of ways to nerf characters, they will go back to the lab, attend more tournaments, and level up. In other words get good.

Shiek is not the shenanigan character that Diddy Kong was before he got nerfed. She actually requires skill to use (I mean down throw up air on Diddy Kong was bonkers). And if a Shiek is beating you...it's probably because that Shiek is better than you as a player when it's all said and done (unless you're playing online, then you have to factor in lag or she has a convincing winning matchup against your character and is allowed to make more mistakes/get in easier).

I mean we all know how the D3 vs Megaman matchup works right?

Or the Villager/Rosalina vs Ness matchup right?

fairfairfairfairftiltfairfairfairbouncingfish isn't a shenanigan? Alright

I mean, sure, but I'm willing to bet that a lot of people who play "good" characters like Sheik would get bodied if they went, say, Ganondorf against a Link or Duck Hunt. You can't deny that a good portion of the match is decided at the character select screen.

Some characters have a harder time than others vs certain matchups, I'm sure I don't have to put that out there. I honestly think Sheik has way too many tools at her disposal. Sheik now is like Greninja pre-nerf minus the hydro pump gimping. IMO.

 

[Deleted member]

So? You guys overrate how much his size holds him back, it drives me borderline insane.

First of all, Zard's hut box isn't that big. His wings and tail are intangible.

Secondly, Zelda ain't tiny either. She's really tall, but doesn't have any of the weight to back it up.

Zard does have redeeming qualities. Good range, power, ground speed, combos, recovery, and survivability. Why do people always gloss over them?

Being functional with a big hitbox, is not worse than being dysfunctional with a smaller hitbox.

Like you said earlier in the thread, Charizard is a character that works on paper (great ground movement, numerous kill options, armored attacks in the form of Fly, Rock Smash and Flare Blitz, a down smash that kills people hanging on the ledge) but has some major things holding him back. It's still baffling to me why his air speed is so bad. Why do and frackin' have better air speeds than Zard?? It's absolutely nonsensical. His midair jumps are pretty low which gets him juggled really badly.

Even if 's jumps are low in height as well, he can at least use them more to his advantage to having more jumps and a back air with much less landing lag than Zard's. His traction is also an issue (second worst in the game, first being Luigi's), and it makes him have a terrible OoS game. His OoS options themselves are good, but him having so much shield pushback after getting hit by something doesn't allow him to use them.

Agreed on him definitely being better than Zelda though. At least Charizard is a character who's functional, he just has really detrimental flaws and nobody notable really plays him.

 

[Smog Frog]

...

walk speed is tied with , at 1.2. even then, his dash stop animation is so short and his dash is so fast(2, at 8th place, notably ahead of ) that you wouldn't be walking much anyway.

there is much misinformation about my boy , isnt there?

 

[Deleted member]

...

walk speed is tied with , at 1.2. even then, his dash stop animation is so short and his dash is so fast(2, at 8th place, notably ahead of ) that you wouldn't be walking much anyway.

there is much misinformation about my boy , isnt there?

Serious apologies over that bit of misinformation there. I should've fact checked.

That's a good point about his dash speed, but my point still stands that he still struggles with having poor aerial maneuverability.

 

[HonorH]

fairfairfairfairftiltfairfairfairbouncingfish isn't a shenanigan? Alright

I mean, sure, but I'm willing to bet that a lot of people who play "good" characters like Sheik would get bodied if they went, say, Ganondorf against a Link or Duck Hunt. You can't deny that a good portion of the match is decided at the character select screen.

Some characters have a harder time than others vs certain matchups, I'm sure I don't have to put that out there. I honestly think Sheik has way too many tools at her disposal. Sheik now is like Greninja pre-nerf minus the hydro pump gimping. IMO.

Well...no. Fairly annoying and frustrating yes, but not a shenanigan. A shenanigan would be prepatched Diddy Dthrowing you into Upair.

You know whats also fairly annoying and frustrating? Playing a fastfaller against the likes of Mario.

UtiltUtiltUtilitGrabResetUltitltUltitUpairBackair/NairFastfallRisingbackairBackair

 

[Y2Kay]

Like you said earlier in the thread, Charizard is a character that works on paper (great ground movement, numerous kill options, armored attacks in the form of Fly, Rock Smash and Flare Blitz, a down smash that kills people hanging on the ledge) but has some major things holding him back. It's still baffling to me why his air speed is so bad. Why do and frackin' have better air speeds than Zard?? It's absolutely nonsensical. He also has a poor walk that doesn't really allow him to make use of his very good tilts, and his midair jumps are pretty low which gets him juggled really badly.

Even if 's jumps are low in height as well, he can at least use them more to his advantage to having more jumps and a back air with much less landing lag than Zard's. His traction is also an issue (second worst in the game, first being Luigi's), and it makes him have a terrible OoS game. His OoS options themselves are good, but him having so much shield pushback after getting hit by something doesn't allow him to use them.

Agreed on him definitely being better than Zelda though. At least Charizard is a character who's functional, he just has really detrimental flaws and nobody notable really plays him.

Apparently Sakurai thinks he can't fly well. Zard actually has good handful of PRed players. (I'm on the phone right now tho, so I can't post them.

 

[aεrgiα]

I agree 13th is a good result but I think a lot of people are justifiably using this as an indicator that Pikachu really isn't Top 3 like some people had thought for a while. I think he's top 10 for sure.

About the Pikachu vs Mario matchup, it definitely is one of Pikachu's few bad matchups. Now how bad it really is is still debatable. At worst, it is probably 60-40 in Mario's favor, in my opinion. In the second match against Teb, ESAM did really well with Pikachu. It was in the third match where he made some mistakes that cost him the win (especially in the end, where ESAM did his trademark hard read smash attacks).
I agree that Pikachu shouldn't be dismissed because of this placing. Part of the problem of having a single person that everyone looks at to assess a character is that when he doesn't perform well, the character doesn't either. For example, ESAM didn't exactly play the ZSS matchup as he should've. This shouldn't reflect on the character (and luckily, as far as I know, I don't think anyone here has suggested that this set defines the matchup).
However, we shouldn't automatically assume that this character is Top 3. I feel that he was overrated because of this. I know that ZeRo and ESAM both said this before, but results haven't necessarily backed up this claim. I mean, I won't deny the possibility of him being the 3rd best character, but for now, we can't say that for sure. He still seems like a good contender for Top 10 though.

the thing is people are using it as an argument against pika being top 10/top 8 and its definitely not, now im not even saying pika is definitely top 10(although i think he is) im just saying that using esams performance at g3 to argue that pika isnt even top 10 is faulty logic

Then honestly if that is the case you have no reason to complain as you knowingly choice to use the worst characters to fight against Sheik, not the other players fault.

And before, "Well you use Sheik" I (at the moment) solo main Little Mac and I still try my hardest, I study his Frame Data and options, I practice combos and set-ups and all those things. I just don't sit around hoping for nerfs or buffs because that is both lazy and not reliable at all.

great logic, saying sheik isnt overtuned, you shouldve played a better character is the same as saying brawl mk isnt broken, you shouldve just played a better character. of course theres characters that are able to come close to her, but a character forcing half the cast to pick a different character is not healthy for a diverse meta IMO. none of us just sit around doing nothing and hope for nerfs/buffs, at least not anyone trying to be competitive, but this thread is for competitive impressions, and its there to voice opinions on the meta, and if people elaborate on why they think sheik should be nerfed thats fine, they may be wrong but the point of this thread is to discuss exactly that, and simply saying practise, git gud and stop complaining is not very helpful or constructive :/

look at earth, despite his amazing play and the time he invested into his character(you cannot seriously tell me earth needs to "git gud") after zero lost that game on lylat, he needle camped, and despite earths attempts to get in, he couldnt really deal with it very well, ofc earth couldve chosen a better character, but if it reaches that point, imo its a sad future for smash 4 the thing with sheik isnt that shes broken, i think overtuned is a good way to describe her, she wouldnt need much but just a little toning down of her tools imo, just another example, zero vs ranai, aka the top villager player vs the top sheik player, zero ran away and needle camped... against villager. so one of the best campers in the game got out camped by a character thats supposed to be in the rushdown/combo category, of course its not unbeatable, ranai used lloid to cover his approaches against needles and it worked out decently well but villager was forced to approach vs sheik, the point is that sheik can "outcamp" one of the best campers in the whole game, is actually a rushdown archetype, has an amazing approach game and is probably the best at that aswell, imo she shouldnt get nerfed too much, but at the very least i think that needles are a bit too good and could get toned down a little, overdoing it is definitely not the way to go about it but neither is telling people to pick a different character, of course those players can pick a different character or just "deal with it", theres a reason we are seeing less low tiers and more sheiks in tournament(although genesis was a positive surprise contrary to that trend) because players are doing just that, dropping their mains in favour of better characters and that to me is not a good develepment

 

[HoSmash4]

the thing is people are using it as an argument against pika being top 10/top 8 and its definitely not, now im not even saying pika is definitely top 10(although i think he is) im just saying that using esams performance at g3 to argue that pika isnt even top 10 is faulty logic


great logic, saying sheik isnt overtuned, you shouldve played a better character is the same as saying brawl mk isnt broken, you shouldve just played a better character. of course theres characters that are able to come close to her, but a character forcing half the cast to pick a different character is not healthy for a diverse meta IMO. none of us just sit around doing nothing and hope for nerfs/buffs, at least not anyone trying to be competitive, but this thread is for competitive impressions, and its there to voice opinions on the meta, and if people elaborate on why they think sheik should be nerfed thats fine, they may be wrong but the point of this thread is to discuss exactly that, and simply saying practise, git gud and stop complaining is not very helpful or constructive :/

look at earth, despite his amazing play and the time he invested into his character(you cannot seriously tell me earth needs to "git gud") after zero lost that game on lylat, he needle camped, and despite earths attempts to get in, he couldnt really deal with it very well, ofc earth couldve chosen a better character, but if it reaches that point, imo its a sad future for smash 4 the thing with sheik isnt that shes broken, i think overtuned is a good way to describe her, she wouldnt need much but just a little toning down of her tools imo, just another example, zero vs ranai, aka the top villager player vs the top sheik player, zero ran away and needle camped... against villager. so one of the best campers in the game got out camped by a character thats supposed to be in the rushdown category, of course its not unbeatable, ranai used lloid to cover his approaches against needles and it worked out decently well but villager was forced to approach vs sheik, the point is that sheik can "outcamp" one of the best campers in the whole game, is actually a rushdown archetype, has an amazing approach game and is probably the best at that aswell, imo she shouldnt get nerfed too much, but at the very least i think that needles are a bit too good and could get toned down a little, overdoing it is definitely not the way to go about it but neither is telling people to pick a different character, of course those players can pick a different character or just "deal with it", theres a reason we are seeing less low tiers and more sheiks in tournament(although genesis was a positive surprise contrary to that trend) because players are doing just that, dropping their mains in favour of better characters and that to me is not a good develepment

Is Earth a better player than Zero?

I still remember the days of Salem beating every top Metakinght left and right. No reason why other high tiers in this game cant do the same.

 

[aεrgiα]

Is Earth a better player than Zero?

I still remember the days of Salem beating every top Metakinght left and right. No reason why other high tiers in this game cant do the same.

thats not what im saying, but would zero have won with roy(or any other not top tier)? i mean dont get me wrong, i dont want to discredit zeros skill, hes definitely the best player atm, regardless of character, but u cant just look at the players skill and ignore the character(or the reverse)

 

[HoSmash4]

thats not what im saying, but would zero have won with roy(or any other not top tier)?

Zero would have a great chance of winning with Diddy, who isnt a top tier.

Asking if Zero would win with Roy is like asking if Armada would have won with Yoshi in Melee.

 

[Macchiato]

Not true, I was at Versus last week and when he got sent to loser by my friend he went Sheik the whole way through and won. Sheik is definitely Ed's main.

He himself said he went 100% Zelda and on Twitter he confirmed that he's moving Sheik to the side. Even if he did use Sheik, he still did use Zelda for the majority of the tournament.

nah

Ed uses Zelda when he thinks he will win or in the low tier tournaments. Last week every top player besides him was absent due to Genesis 3 so he probably thought Zelda would stand more of a chance since he was the best player by far there, however he lost round 1 to my friend but still managed to win the whole tournament with his amazing Sheik.

He said he's slowly transitioning to Zelda. He's going to improve with her first but he said that he'll pull Sheik out in possible upcoming regionals because he thinks his Zelda isn't up there yet.

Ganon has GanontheBeast PR'd #1 in Minnesota as well as Kalm who's gotten top 8 in multiple sizeable Canadian tourneys. Vermanubis also has had some pretty good results. None of them have really shown up to major US tourneys though, as I mentioned a couple pages back. Also Pon was mentioned above in Japan. Whether Zard has quality representation or not his tools are still better than Zelda's, so I will lose no sleep putting him ahead of her.

Yes you can say that, but results are much more important when it comes to placement. Charizard's still are very weak and I honestly don't think his tools are all that better. His jab and nair are good moves. He has Rock Smash which is useful and his Uthrow is great, but the rest are either slow or situational. He still has many problems.

 

[aεrgiα]

Zero would have a great chance of winning with Diddy, who isnt a top tier.

Asking if Zero would win with Roy is like asking if Armada would have won with Yoshi in Melee.

diddy, who is still easily top 10, possibly even top 5, and definitely better than pit, im pretty sure it wouldve been a much closer game than it was with sheik, and that is exactly my point. and i never knew armada invested even a tiny bit into yoshi in melee but zero has at least said that hes invested some time into roy, although that didnt last long afaik, but thats beside the point im making, which youre just conviniently ignoring

 

[teddystalin]

At this point the only reason Zero is telling people to get good is because for the most part...it's not the character at the level these guys are at right now. It's pure skill level. I mean, how else is Zero still wining the Diddy vs Shiek matchup? He's the only one making that matchup look winnable, because I haven't seen a single Diddy beat Mr R or Void, unless you have some footage of MVD doing it.

MVD has beaten Mr. R at CEO and Paragon LA; Void was nearly sent to losers in his Round 1 Pool at Genesis by Ryuji, a relatively unknown Japanese Diddy. Those are just a couple of examples, but ZeRo is far from the only person winning that MU.

Zero would have a great chance of winning with Diddy, who isnt a top tier.

...But he is.

 

[Fatmanonice]

As Zero has said, he DOMINATES every sheik when he uses Diddy. Just look at how he obliterates Ramin, Cacogen and Void and Vinnie. What Diddys make top 16 on the regular at nationals? Maybe MVD. It's players kill.

As I mentioned before, there's more to this than just match up knowledge. He regularly gets to practice against the best Sheiks in the world on a regular basis in casual and high pressure settings. He mains Sheik, the best character in the game, and Diddy, the former best character in the game who you basically said yourself hardly anyone plays anymore. He practically has the top players of every relevant character on speed dial. He had one of the best Smash players in the world as his PERSONAL COACH who was also not only a top player for Brawl and Project M but is also still one of the best Melee Sheiks in Smash history. This is why all I can do is look at my screen incredulously when someone who has all these things going for them and says "it's not that hard." It's a lack of perspective but this has always been a thing and will likely become more common as Smash gets bigger and bigger. Does this mean Sheik should be nerfed to oblivion? No, but the fact of the matter is that it isn't that simple and perhaps Sheik will always be on top despite some of the best players in the world trying and failing to beat her. Unlike Brawl, however, we still have two more characters coming out that could bring balance to the Force as well as at least two more major patches so things could easily change in a month's time.

 

[HoSmash4]

MVD has beaten Mr. R at CEO and Paragon LA; Void was nearly sent to losers in his Round 1 Pool at Genesis by Ryuji, a relatively unknown Japanese Diddy. Those are just a couple of examples, but ZeRo is far from the only person winning that MU.



...But he is.

diddy, who is still easily top 10, possibly even top 5, and definitely better than pit, im pretty sure it wouldve been a much closer game than it was with sheik, and that is exactly my point. and i never knew armada invested even a tiny bit into yoshi in melee but zero has at least said that hes invested some time into roy, although that didnt last long afaik, but thats beside the point im making, which youre just conviniently ignoring

Character matchup + choice is a big factor but its a not a deciding factor. Otherwise everyone would be playing sheik

As I mentioned before, there's more to this than just match up knowledge. He regularly gets to practice against the best Sheiks in the world on a regular basis in casual and high pressure settings. He mains Sheik, the best character in the game, and Diddy, the former best character in the game who you basically said yourself hardly anyone plays anymore. He practically has the top players of every relevant character on speed dial. He had one of the best Smash players in the world as his PERSONAL COACH who was also not only a top player for Brawl and Project M but is also still one of the best Melee Sheiks in Smash history. This is why all I can do is look at my screen incredulously when someone who has all these things going for them and says "it's not that hard." It's a lack of perspective but this has always been a thing and will likely become more common as Smash gets bigger and bigger. Does this mean Sheik should be nerfed to oblivion? No, but the fact of the matter is that it isn't that simple and perhaps Sheik will always be on top despite some of the best players in the world trying and failing to beat her. Unlike Brawl, however, we still have two more characters coming out that could bring balance to the Force as well as at least two more major patches so things could easily change in a month's time.

Zero beats every sheik. Zero is better than everyone else proving that Sheik isnt unbeatable and on another level.

Sheik might be on top. Cool. At the end of the day there will always be a number one and in this case it is sheik.
Another mentality problem that people have in general, not just in smash is complain about who is on top rather than putting more time into working how to beat the top.

Pretty much iron forges iron, but some folks don't have a mine to get the requisite ore. Me and my friend can only get so good playing each other. The best players in the state live an hour away from me. Some people can't exactly put in eight a day with national reps.

So they resort to complaining.

People complain about location barriers. Void and Zero werent born in SoCal were they? Put the hard work in and you'll get rewards if you overcome barriers

 

[|RK|]

As I mentioned before, there's more to this than just match up knowledge. He regularly gets to practice against the best Sheiks in the world on a regular basis in casual and high pressure settings. He mains Sheik, the best character in the game, and Diddy, the former best character in the game who you basically said yourself hardly anyone plays anymore. He practically has the top players of every relevant character on speed dial. He had one of the best Smash players in the world as his PERSONAL COACH who was also not only a top player for Brawl and Project M but is also still one of the best Melee Sheiks in Smash history. This is why all I can do is look at my screen incredulously when someone who has all these things going for them and says "it's not that hard." It's a lack of perspective but this has always been a thing and will likely become more common as Smash gets bigger and bigger. Does this mean Sheik should be nerfed to oblivion? No, but the fact of the matter is that it isn't that simple and perhaps Sheik will always be on top despite some of the best players in the world trying and failing to beat her. Unlike Brawl, however, we still have two more characters coming out that could bring balance to the Force as well as at least two more major patches so things could easily change in a month's time.

All of that is to beat the Sheiks that are closer to his level. No one else is playing at that level, and as such no one else needs as much as ZeRo has gotten. Do you think you need M2K coaching you to win against a local Sheik with Diddy?

 

[outfoxd]

As I mentioned before, there's more to this than just match up knowledge. He regularly gets to practice against the best Sheiks in the world on a regular basis in casual and high pressure settings. He mains Sheik, the best character in the game, and Diddy, the former best character in the game who you basically said yourself hardly anyone plays anymore. He practically has the top players of every relevant character on speed dial. He had one of the best Smash players in the world as his PERSONAL COACH who was also not only a top player for Brawl and Project M but is also still one of the best Melee Sheiks in Smash history. This is why all I can do is look at my screen incredulously when someone who has all these things going for them and says "it's not that hard." It's a lack of perspective but this has always been a thing and will likely become more common as Smash gets bigger and bigger. Does this mean Sheik should be nerfed to oblivion? No, but the fact of the matter is that it isn't that simple and perhaps Sheik will always be on top despite some of the best players in the world trying and failing to beat her. Unlike Brawl, however, we still have two more characters coming out that could bring balance to the Force as well as at least two more major patches so things could easily change in a month's time.

Pretty much iron forges iron, but some folks don't have a mine to get the requisite ore. Me and my friend can only get so good playing each other. The best players in the state live an hour away from me. Some people can't exactly put in eight a day with national reps.

 

[TheLegendaryFoxFire]

thats not what im saying, but would zero have won with roy(or any other not top tier)? i mean dont get me wrong, i dont want to discredit zeros skill, hes definitely the best player atm, regardless of character, but u cant just look at the players skill and ignore the character(or the reverse)

More then likely yeah, ZeRo would win with almost any other character because he is that good and actually learns all the things he needs to know in order to win. Just like when he steam rolled that whole Captain Falcon tournament against the "Worlds Best Falcons". Its not the character but the player that really carries in a match.

Edit: Oh and Omni's video on "Is it too late to play Melee?" everything he said also works and applies in Smash 4 not just in Melee as well.

 

[outfoxd]

I mean, at the end of the day it boils down to "quit complaining or quit playing". I'm not going to quit my 9 to 5, pull up stakes and move to tristate or Socal to attempt to become a professional gamer. I do what i can with what i got, and feel morose in the meantime. One of the reasons I'm trying to switch to Rosa, to stop complaining. Also, I'm not properly equipped to be a low tier hero.

 

[Fatmanonice]

All of that is to beat the Sheiks that are closer to his level. No one else is playing at that level, and as such no one else needs as much as ZeRo has gotten. Do you think you need M2K coaching you to win against a local Sheik with Diddy?

No, but the fact remains that people do in fact have problems with the matchup and "dude, it's not that hard" is oversimplifying the situation. There's also the simple fact that, as history has shown, learning match ups is not a stationary thing. Brawl's a fantastic example of this. Think about all the characters that were at some point called "Metaknight counters" because of a single tournament upset. before things just snapped right back to "lol nope."

If a character has an inherent advantage, that will likely stay the same unless something groundbreaking is discovered and your opponent is totally oblivious to it. Zero beating those players with Diddy becomes less impressive when you consider he's already more skilled then them and used to main the character himself. Why the skill gap? Review my previous post. If you consistently lose to someone now, that will probably stay the case unless they significantly back off or, again, the off chance you figure out something that they don't which is unlikely when you're perched atop the competitive Smash 4 scene and can just look down from your throne to see what kind of rabblerousery the commoners are up to these days.

 

[Radical Larry]

More then likely yeah, ZeRo would win with almost any other character because he is that good and actually learns all the things he needs to know in order to win. Just like when he steam rolled that whole Captain Falcon tournament again the "Worlds Best Falcons". Its not the character but the player that really carries in a match.

I'd like to see ZeRo go with Link, I'd like to see him try with him. No, honestly, I'd actually like to see what ZeRo can do with Link in the tournament scene.

=================

Though talking about Link, I ask, what buffs would you guys want to see for Link to have that might make him viable? Would additional mobility, a faster U-Tilt/more damaging U-Tilt, faster F-Tilt, more powerful D-Air (in exchange for losing the meteor) or maybe even a faster throw and better throw combo game do well for him? I'd honestly sacrifice D-Air's meteor for power, and F-Tilt's power for speed.

Any opinions?

 

[HeavyLobster]

Yes you can say that, but results are much more important when it comes to placement. Charizard's still are very weak and I honestly don't think his tools are all that better. His jab and nair are good moves. He has Rock Smash which is useful and his Uthrow is great, but the rest are either slow or situational. He still has many problems.

Not really when we're talking about this part of the tier list. Competitively there's not much reason to pick either one, and it really comes down to whether or not some good player bothers to use them. Zelda being considered one of, if not the, worst in the game has its advantages in some ways because it appeals to players looking for a challenge. Charizard is good enough to not really fall into "bottom 5 disrespect" territory, and doesn't really have much in the way of neat gimmicks either.

 

[Sinister Slush]

No, but the fact remains that people do in fact have problems with the matchup and "dude, it's not that hard" is oversimplifying the situation. There's also the simple fact that, as history has shown, learning match ups is not a stationary thing. Brawl's a fantastic example of this. Think about all the characters that were at some point called "Metaknight counters" because of a single tournament upset. before things just snapped right back to "lol nope."

Lemme guess for
Polt beating DSF and Redhalberd in 2010.

 

[C0rvus]

I'd like to see ZeRo go with Link, I'd like to see him try with him. No, honestly, I'd actually like to see what ZeRo can do with Link in the tournament scene.

=================

Though talking about Link, I ask, what buffs would you guys want to see for Link to have that might make him viable? Would additional mobility, a faster U-Tilt/more damaging U-Tilt, faster F-Tilt, more powerful D-Air (in exchange for losing the meteor) or maybe even a faster throw and better throw combo game do well for him? I'd honestly sacrifice D-Air's meteor for power, and F-Tilt's power for speed.

Any opinions?

I think if Link had better close quarters options, like a slightly faster jab and maybe down tilt, he would be in a better place. His grab is among the better tethers due to its range and the reward from landing it. How fast is his best out of shield option? Maybe they could reduce the startup of his grounded Spin Attack or reduce the cooldown. They could also make his walk or run faster, but that might be too much.

 

[Macchiato]

Not really when we're talking about this part of the tier list. Competitively there's not much reason to pick either one, and it really comes down to whether or not some good player bothers to use them. Zelda being considered one of, if not the, worst in the game has its advantages in some ways because it appeals to players looking for a challenge. Charizard is good enough to not really fall into "bottom 5 disrespect" territory, and doesn't really have much in the way of neat gimmicks either.

I don't think Zelda is worst. I don't think she's even bottom 3. She does have good tools and strengths. She does have many weaknesses though and too many to be considered viable, but I think she has enough to get past worst character.

 

[| Big D |]

Had no idea Big D had a Falcon. Knew about his Mario and Bowser though.

Ah well, it's good stuff to him regardless. I can still cling to his set against Nietono for my cycle of optimism around D3, even with the loss. Back to work we gooooo.

Went Dedede except for Falcon vs Pink Fresh. At the beginning of the set I was talking to him and he seemed to react when Falcon was mentioned. After a bad game 1 I switched to Falcon and it worked out. Against Nietono and Fatality I didn't think a secondary would be a good idea so I stayed.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Went Dedede except for Falcon vs Pink Fresh. At the beginning of the set I was talking to him and he seemed to react when Falcon was mentioned. After a bad game 1 I switched to Falcon and it worked out. Against Nietono and Fatality I didn't think a secondary would be a good idea so I stayed.

How many times have you used D3 through the entire tourney?