Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
I fail to see where you disagree. I didn't say Ranai wasn't great, and I didn't say Villager wasn't a good character. My point is I like seeing people actually succeeding when they put hard work into their mains, but players that invest time into high / mid tiers and still do well like he does rarely do that well. We're seeing streams of players succumbing to the dominant Sheik, so I like to see their is still hope for other high tiers to do the same and do really well too.Not to knock your enthusiasm, but Ranai is one of the best players in the world. Villager is a good character. Him doing well didn't surprise me. I'm glad he has stuck to his guns or whatever. I am disappointed that top players are moving up to Sheik. Ally's Sheik will be terrible though, since he's such a lazy player.
Honestly I'm surprised people don't complain about Villager more. It's the same deal as Sonic. You have to chase him down for 10 seconds to get a single interaction then reset because his aerials and floatiness say nope. Except while Villager plays neutral away from you, he's constantly pelting you with ****. Lloyd is a free mixup if it gets out, and a super strong conditioning tool. Is it because nobody plays Villager or what?
True, but given the size of the roster, it's still going to boil down to a pretty abysmal number.Even assuming there aren't any more nerfs,(and I would be genuinely surprised if Cloud wasn't) there's going to be more than 4 relevant characters. I can't see Ryu not being a force in the meta given enough development, and we don't really know how good Cloud could get if left as is. Sonic's probably going to remain a tourney threat, and Villager came within one game of knocking off the best Sheik in the world. Of course Sheik as is will remain a plague on the meta, and the game would benefit immensely were she nerfed meaningfully but not severely, and if Zero Suit were toned down slightly as well, but they don't actually invalidate the rest of the top 10(which I don't think Mario and Ness are, and they don't invalidate either one in any case.) Ness's main problem is Rosa, while Mario just isn't that dominant of a character and mostly became relevant because he's simple to play.
If a character wins too much then that's probably a sign that that character is unbalanced. Give me one good reason why Sheik (a character who many agree has no weakness.) should remain the way she is if she can be changed and brought more in line with the other characters below her?I'm just going to be a realist and say that if it wasn't Sheik, it'd be someone else with that number on it. That's how logistics and picking the best character is.
Changing Sheik because she wins too much is an incredibly faulty reason. She has other problems but I don't think I like where this tangent is going. No matter who the best character is, if they are the best, they will likely have the most results and the most players.
Never said she should or shouldn't. But tell me one reason why the next best character assuming she was changed drastically wouldn't just take her place anyways?If a character wins too much that's probably a sign that that character is unbalanced. Give me one good reason why Sheik (a character who many agree has no weakness.) should remain the way she is?
Assuming someone will take her place. The point is that the next best would be more manageable and the gap would not be as wide. If there's going to be a best they should be the best by the slimmest margin possible. I would much rather have Ryu be the best than Sheik or ZSS because he has more flaws. His recovery is not spectacular, his air acceleration is the worst in the game, there are characters than have a noticeable advantage over him, disjoints can give him trouble, and etc.Never said she should or shouldn't. But tell me one reason why the next best character assuming she was changed drastically wouldn't just take her place anyways?
I'll wait.
Ha, I guess I didn't disagree with you. My bad, perhaps I misread your post. I'm all about variety as well. Kinda weird that people who already play high tiers feel the need to move up. With some optimization they shouldn't struggle with Sheik/ZSS/Rosa too much. I guess when money is on the line you gotta do what you gotta do.I fail to see where you disagree. I didn't say Ranai wasn't great, and I didn't say Villager wasn't a good character. My point is I like seeing people actually succeeding when they put hard work into their mains, but players that invest time into high / mid tiers and still do well like he does rarely do that well. We're seeing streams of players succumbing to the dominant Sheik, so I like to see their is still hope for other high tiers to do the same and do really well too.
Someone will take her place because her place is being the best in the game. I can't articulate this enough, she LITERALLY took Diddy's place and I am willing to bet money if the same scenario happens, it'll repeat (prepare for the influx of ZSS assuming it does.)Assuming someone will take her place. The point is that the next best would be more manageable and the gap would not be as wide. If there's going to be a best they should be the best by the slimmest margin possible. I would much rather have Ryu be the best than Sheik or ZSS because he has more flaws. His recovery is not spectacular, his air acceleration is the worst in the game, there are characters than have a noticeable advantage over him, disjoints can give him trouble, and etc.
It doesn't work that way.I'm just going to be a realist and say that if it wasn't Sheik, it'd be someone else with that number on it. That's how logistics and picking the best character is.
1. Sheik getting the most wins isn't the only reason to nerf Sheik. Sheik being the best rushdown character in the game WITH the best projectile in the game is also an excellent reason, but yes, we have to pay attention to tournament results and ask ourselves why they are what they are.Changing Sheik because she wins too much is an incredibly faulty reason. She has other problems but I don't think I like where this tangent is going. No matter who the best character is, if they are the best, they will likely have the most results and the most players.
But what happens if that character actually has counters? They might not be as widespread then. And even if they are, your chances of winning against that character are better than if you went against a character who has no counters.Someone will take her place because her place is being the best in the game. I can't articulate this enough, she LITERALLY took Diddy's place and I am willing to bet money if the same scenario happens, it'll repeat (prepare for the influx of ZSS assuming it does.)
The slimmest margins won't change the fact that the character will be played the most, by the by. It will change matchup dynamics, not playing ratio.
Nerfing characters that most of the roster has a bad matchup against is the best (and safest) way to buff many characters at once.People asking if zero would beat Ally/Esam with bad character eg marth.
Ok sheik gets nerfed. Can zeros marth beat Esam or ally consistently? The answer tells you buffs are answer, not nerfs.
And as I said, they aren't.Numbers alone should NEVER EVER be used as sole evidence nor do I think they speak strongly of the matchup dynamics or anything else that is incredibly important when it comes to balancing a character.
Yeah, Sakurai jumped the gun on that one, but it's been a YEAR of Sheik/ZSS dominance now, and we can probably expect balance patches to end forever soon.Dedede was a victim of this, I recall Thinkaman posting that he had a lot of Wifi and JP tournament results early on and they swung at him based on this. You tell me what happened.
Probably because Ally, FOW, and some other players who went to G3 have said that they're officially giving up on Mario, Ness, etc. and switching to Sheik/ZSS.Not saying nerfs for Sheik aren't warranted, but what is up with this fervor? Is it because Melee Fox and Brawl MK exist that people keep assuming a solid best character just takes a huge dump on the weaker characters to the same degree? You don't see Ultra SFIV players talking about Elena or whoever like she's Chun-Li in 3rd Strike.
"there's no reason" except for budget, time and maybe man power. There are plenty of reasons really. Balancing a 50+ character game is not as easy as you make it out to be.True, but given the size of the roster, it's still going to boil down to a pretty abysmal number.
Not as bad as Brawl, but still pretty damn bad, especially considering SSB4 had the benefit of balance patches while Brawl didn't.
In the end, it's going to be a terrible shame because there's no reason half the roster couldn't have been legitimate tournament threats, what with balance patches. Again, maybe whoever directs SSB5 will understand this...
Shaky said this, not FOW, and Ally's done this before (Reminder that a LOT OF PEOPLE DID ACTUALLY, Umebura FAT was the era of "I REALLY AM GONNA SWITCH TO ZSS"). Ally looks to be gravitating to Cloud (at least in Dubz but I really wouldn't be surprised if he did Cloud in singles too, he's stated he likes the character himself, I'm basing this off his tweets and shiz).Probably because Ally, FOW, and some other players who went to G3 have said that they're officially giving up on Mario, Ness, etc. and switching to Sheik/ZSS.
I often think they do, as they understand the need to give characters kill confirms that will only be accessible to competitive players (ding-dong, shell shock, etc.), but then they've left the S-tier basically untouched for about a year now, even when we can clearly see how incredibly powerful these characters are and how stupidly good some of their tools are.The team definitely understands the want of a balanced game, that is why we've been getting balance patches in the first place.
Ah yeah, I mean Shaky, which is still a shame if it happens.Shaky said this, not FOW, and Ally's done this before (Reminder that a LOT OF PEOPLE DID ACTUALLY, Umebura FAT was the era of "I REALLY AM GONNA SWITCH TO ZSS"). Ally looks to be gravitating to Cloud (at least in Dubz but I really wouldn't be surprised if he did Cloud in singles too, he's stated he likes the character himself, I'm basing this off his tweets and shiz).
Whoops, yeah, SB forums do that on occasion.(Also you mistakenly quoted me but it's okay =3, it was Nobie's post you were quoting I believe)
More realistic example: Shiek gets nerfed. Zero still beats other top players cause the nerf was reasonable and shiek is still the best character in the game. And if god forbid she gets a slightly unfavorable matchup Zero will be fine using diddy, and it's good to have even the best characters benefit from secondaries in competitive play.People asking if zero would beat Ally/Esam with bad character eg marth.
Ok sheik gets nerfed. Can zeros marth beat Esam or ally consistently? The answer tells you buffs are answer, not nerfs.
Exactly, especially because buffing the bottom 40 characters to be on par with Sheik/ZSS would be a crazy amount of work and a TON of untested changes that could actually make the game worse in the long run.Relying solely on buffs is helpful for making trash low tiers usable but does not really change much for the higher tiers and the top 10 or so characters
Those are the two reasons I want to see nerfs as well. I like seeing variety in grand finals. If we've reached the point where you can pretty much expect either Sheik or ZSS (or both) to be in GF, there's just no point to watching tournaments any longer, IMO.Rant over. I'd honestly be fine if they decided not to Nerf shiek or zss but I think it would make top 8s more exciting. I'd also be pretty upset if high tier mains like ally and shaky decided to switch to shiek because they feel it's the only way to reach those top 3 places at big tournaments.
This is something I've been wondering. I wish every game had Virtua Fighter s training mode.On the subject of people practicing/labbing to learn all their options, as someone who comes from a more traditional fighting game background (SF), how do you 'lab' things properly in training mode in this game? You can't even do basic stuff like record the CPU to test punishes etc.
I'm....not so sure what's so inaccessible to casual players about hoo-hahs. It doesn't exactly take a genius to think of jumping and doing an Uair/aerial after throwing someone roughly vertically into the air.I often think they do, as they understand the need to give characters kill confirms that will only be accessible to competitive players (ding-dong, shell shock, etc.), but then they've left the S-tier basically untouched for about a year now, even when we can clearly see how incredibly powerful these characters are and how stupidly good some of their tools are.
Half the casuals I know don't even know how to grab.I'm....not so sure what's so inaccessible to casual players about hoo-hahs. It doesn't exactly take a genius to think of jumping and doing an Uair/aerial after throwing someone roughly vertically into the air.
Stuff like this is usually what I do. It's not uncommon to play with two controllers at once for me:This is something I've been wondering. I wish every game had Virtua Fighter s training mode.
Who called it? GUESS WHOOOO (few other ppl in this thread did too, I'd tag y'all if I could but you know who you are).
I didWho called it? GUESS WHOOOO (few other ppl in this thread did too, I'd tag y'all if I could but you know who you are)
Probably because I believe his exact words were "Mario has failed me for the last time".
Can't speak for others, but I've been calling for Sheik/ZSS nerfs for a while now, and they're starting to show up in an "S-tier" in the tier lists of many top players, including Marss.Dabuz, Ranai, Nairo, Marss and whoever the other two non-Sheik top 8s were could have been number 1 and there could have possibly been less Sheik nerfs being asked for this time around. Maybe it's just a national thing?
I've seen people asking them for a while too but with them being brought up again right after G3, it gets me thinking that something must have happened with those 2 that people are wanting them nerfed again. If a Sheik didn't win and say only 1 ZSS got into top 8 then people may have looked at the top 8 plus the #1 and thought "oh, maybe ZSS and Sheik are actually manageable and don't need nerfs."Can't speak for others, but I've been calling for Sheik/ZSS nerfs for a while now, and they're starting to show up in an "S-tier" in the tier lists of many top players, including Marss.
Not sure. Maybe because this is the first major tournament of the new year, SSB4 is over a year old now and people are just sick and tired of the general dominance of Sheik and ZSS.I've seen people asking them for a while too but with them being brought up again right after G3, it gets me thinking that something must have happened with those 2 that people are wanting them nerfed again. If a Sheik didn't win and say only 1 ZSS got into top 8 then people may have looked at the top 8 plus the #1 and thought "oh, maybe ZSS and Sheik are actually manageable and don't need nerfs.".
Wait, who apart from Ally is dropping their mains?Not sure. Maybe because this is the first major tournament of the new year, SSB4 is over a year old now and people are just sick and tired of the general dominance of Sheik and ZSS.
And many others I'm sure watched some of their favorite players get eliminated by ZSShiek and they're probably sick of it as well.
Then there's the fact that notable players are talking about giving up their mains, some for ZSShiek, some for other characters.
For me, the thought of seeing primarily ZSShiek in GF for the remainder of SSB4's lifespan is utterly depressing. May as well go watch Melee for the "character variety" at that point... :\
Ally isn't DROPPING Mario at all.Wait, who apart from Ally is dropping their mains?