Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[HoSmash4]

People asking if zero would beat Ally/Esam with bad character eg marth.
Ok sheik gets nerfed. Can zeros marth beat Esam or ally consistently? The answer tells you buffs are answer, not nerfs.

 

[Y2Kay]

Not to knock your enthusiasm, but Ranai is one of the best players in the world. Villager is a good character. Him doing well didn't surprise me. I'm glad he has stuck to his guns or whatever. I am disappointed that top players are moving up to Sheik. Ally's Sheik will be terrible though, since he's such a lazy player.
Honestly I'm surprised people don't complain about Villager more. It's the same deal as Sonic. You have to chase him down for 10 seconds to get a single interaction then reset because his aerials and floatiness say nope. Except while Villager plays neutral away from you, he's constantly pelting you with ****. Lloyd is a free mixup if it gets out, and a super strong conditioning tool. Is it because nobody plays Villager or what?

I fail to see where you disagree. I didn't say Ranai wasn't great, and I didn't say Villager wasn't a good character. My point is I like seeing people actually succeeding when they put hard work into their mains, but players that invest time into high / mid tiers and still do well like he does rarely do that well. We're seeing streams of players succumbing to the dominant Sheik, so I like to see their is still hope for other high tiers to do the same and do really well too.

 

[S_B]

Even assuming there aren't any more nerfs,(and I would be genuinely surprised if Cloud wasn't) there's going to be more than 4 relevant characters. I can't see Ryu not being a force in the meta given enough development, and we don't really know how good Cloud could get if left as is. Sonic's probably going to remain a tourney threat, and Villager came within one game of knocking off the best Sheik in the world. Of course Sheik as is will remain a plague on the meta, and the game would benefit immensely were she nerfed meaningfully but not severely, and if Zero Suit were toned down slightly as well, but they don't actually invalidate the rest of the top 10(which I don't think Mario and Ness are, and they don't invalidate either one in any case.) Ness's main problem is Rosa, while Mario just isn't that dominant of a character and mostly became relevant because he's simple to play.

True, but given the size of the roster, it's still going to boil down to a pretty abysmal number.

Not as bad as Brawl, but still pretty damn bad, especially considering SSB4 had the benefit of balance patches while Brawl didn't.

In the end, it's going to be a terrible shame because there's no reason half the roster couldn't have been legitimate tournament threats, what with balance patches. Again, maybe whoever directs SSB5 will understand this...

 

[TurboLink]

I'm just going to be a realist and say that if it wasn't Sheik, it'd be someone else with that number on it. That's how logistics and picking the best character is.

Changing Sheik because she wins too much is an incredibly faulty reason. She has other problems but I don't think I like where this tangent is going. No matter who the best character is, if they are the best, they will likely have the most results and the most players.

If a character wins too much then that's probably a sign that that character is unbalanced. Give me one good reason why Sheik (a character who many agree has no weakness.) should remain the way she is if she can be changed and brought more in line with the other characters below her?

 

[TTTTTsd]

If a character wins too much that's probably a sign that that character is unbalanced. Give me one good reason why Sheik (a character who many agree has no weakness.) should remain the way she is?

Never said she should or shouldn't. But tell me one reason why the next best character assuming she was changed drastically wouldn't just take her place anyways?

I'll wait.

(Fun fact: This happened when Diddy was toned down into a reasonable character.)

 

[TurboLink]

Never said she should or shouldn't. But tell me one reason why the next best character assuming she was changed drastically wouldn't just take her place anyways?

I'll wait.

Assuming someone will take her place. The point is that the next best would be more manageable and the gap would not be as wide. If there's going to be a best they should be the best by the slimmest margin possible. I would much rather have Ryu be the best than Sheik or ZSS because he has more flaws. His recovery is not spectacular, his air acceleration is the worst in the game, there are characters than have a noticeable advantage over him, disjoints can give him trouble, and etc.

 

[C0rvus]

I fail to see where you disagree. I didn't say Ranai wasn't great, and I didn't say Villager wasn't a good character. My point is I like seeing people actually succeeding when they put hard work into their mains, but players that invest time into high / mid tiers and still do well like he does rarely do that well. We're seeing streams of players succumbing to the dominant Sheik, so I like to see their is still hope for other high tiers to do the same and do really well too.

Ha, I guess I didn't disagree with you. My bad, perhaps I misread your post. I'm all about variety as well. Kinda weird that people who already play high tiers feel the need to move up. With some optimization they shouldn't struggle with Sheik/ZSS/Rosa too much. I guess when money is on the line you gotta do what you gotta do.

ALSO if top tiers all got gutted, the next best characters would become the top tiers. You cannot avoid top tiers. There is always a best character or characters. This is a fundamental part of fighting games.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Assuming someone will take her place. The point is that the next best would be more manageable and the gap would not be as wide. If there's going to be a best they should be the best by the slimmest margin possible. I would much rather have Ryu be the best than Sheik or ZSS because he has more flaws. His recovery is not spectacular, his air acceleration is the worst in the game, there are characters than have a noticeable advantage over him, disjoints can give him trouble, and etc.

Someone will take her place because her place is being the best in the game. I can't articulate this enough, she LITERALLY took Diddy's place and I am willing to bet money if the same scenario happens, it'll repeat (prepare for the influx of ZSS assuming it does.)

The slimmest margins won't change the fact that the character will be played the most, by the by. It will change matchup dynamics, not playing ratio.

 

[S_B]

I'm just going to be a realist and say that if it wasn't Sheik, it'd be someone else with that number on it. That's how logistics and picking the best character is.

It doesn't work that way.

Character matchups are what they are, and nerfing a character that most of the cast has terrible matchups with doesn't magically make OTHER matchups for those characters worse.

For example (and I'm talking purely hypothetically, here), if Ganondorf had an even matchup with most of the cast (which isn't even close to true) but got dunked horribly by Sheik and ZSS, nerfing Sheik and ZSS wouldn't suddenly make his even matchups BAD.

Sure, it MAY become worse after more meta development of those characters, but that's talking about hypotheticals and not what we actually know to be true.

Changing Sheik because she wins too much is an incredibly faulty reason. She has other problems but I don't think I like where this tangent is going. No matter who the best character is, if they are the best, they will likely have the most results and the most players.

1. Sheik getting the most wins isn't the only reason to nerf Sheik. Sheik being the best rushdown character in the game WITH the best projectile in the game is also an excellent reason, but yes, we have to pay attention to tournament results and ask ourselves why they are what they are.

Again, there are plenty of excellent Sheiks out there, many of whom are dominant in their regions. It's not like the villager situation where there's Ranai and not a whole lot else (as the post said, 1 win for villager by Ranai and 2 villagers in top 8s).

2. The "best character" argument is fallacious for the reasons I mentioned above. Sure, there will be FOTM characters, but ZSS and Sheik have been FOTYs and it doesn't look like that's going to change anytime soon.

Their dominance at local, regional, and international tournaments cannot be disputed at this point. That's when it's time to swing the nerfbat.

 

[Nobie]

No, seriously, what the hell did I miss at Genesis 3 that's causing everyone to cry that the sky is falling?

I watched crews, I watched part of doubles, I watched a ton of singles. Nothing I saw said that Smash 4 turned into the Sheik show any more than it had been previously. Were people hoping that at an even HARDER event than typical that she would somehow fall by the wayside?

"Sheik is this horrible force that can't be stopped!"
No wait, she had plenty of close matches across multiple skill levels throughout the tournament.

"Needles are super broken and unfair!"
They're more like, kind of unfair.

etc. etc.

Not saying nerfs for Sheik aren't warranted, but what is up with this fervor? Is it because Melee Fox and Brawl MK exist that people keep assuming a solid best character just takes a huge dump on the weaker characters to the same degree? You don't see Ultra SFIV players talking about Elena or whoever like she's Chun-Li in 3rd Strike.

 

[C0rvus]

A character winning shouldn't always mean nerf them. Look at Project M. That game is kind of a mess. The fact that it gets no more updates is the best thing that has ever happened to them balance wise.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I'm sorry but I'm going to ask you to very carefully re-read what I posted. Nowhere am I justifying or standing against character changes. I am literally stating that citing "This character is used the most!" is a really, REALLY bad argument and people shouldn't be using it, ever. Numbers alone should NEVER EVER be used as sole evidence nor do I think they speak strongly of the matchup dynamics or anything else that is incredibly important when it comes to balancing a character.

Dedede was a victim of this, I recall Thinkaman posting that he had a lot of Wifi and JP tournament results early on and they swung at him based on this. You tell me what happened.

 

[MF Viewtiful]

Just always remember that if the Bayo update is truly the last Smash patch, there's always the possibility Sheik does not get the nerfs she probably needs.

If it turns out like this, people gotta start thinking about their character choices. Especially if you play to win (even more so if you're sponsored), you need to play Sheik or someone that fights Sheik really well. On the brightside, Sheik maybe the least dominant top tier in the Smash ever. I personally don't Smash 4 is that worse of a game if Sheik does not get nerfed. 3rd Strike, imo, is one of the pinnacles of the fighting genre, but Chun is beyond dumb.

 

[BetaDjinn]

Frankly I don't blame anyone for switching to Sheik. She really is that good. How anyone can be disappointed in a competitor choosing what they feel is their best option is beyond me.

And no, it's not just results (which are impressive but not oppressive). It's unparalleled damage racking, strong approach options, better kill confirmations than most of the cast, a free recovery, being almost un-combo-able outside of true combos (Bouncing Fish), and a projectile that negates every other character's camp game.

Going up against a Sheik you truly are playing against a stacked deck.

 

[TurboLink]

Someone will take her place because her place is being the best in the game. I can't articulate this enough, she LITERALLY took Diddy's place and I am willing to bet money if the same scenario happens, it'll repeat (prepare for the influx of ZSS assuming it does.)

The slimmest margins won't change the fact that the character will be played the most, by the by. It will change matchup dynamics, not playing ratio.

But what happens if that character actually has counters? They might not be as widespread then. And even if they are, your chances of winning against that character are better than if you went against a character who has no counters.

 

[S_B]

People asking if zero would beat Ally/Esam with bad character eg marth.
Ok sheik gets nerfed. Can zeros marth beat Esam or ally consistently? The answer tells you buffs are answer, not nerfs.

Nerfing characters that most of the roster has a bad matchup against is the best (and safest) way to buff many characters at once.

Numbers alone should NEVER EVER be used as sole evidence nor do I think they speak strongly of the matchup dynamics or anything else that is incredibly important when it comes to balancing a character.

And as I said, they aren't.

Though tournament results ARE still the best metric to go by. Anything else is just theorycrafting, for the most part, and means far less than actual tournament data.

Dedede was a victim of this, I recall Thinkaman posting that he had a lot of Wifi and JP tournament results early on and they swung at him based on this. You tell me what happened.

Yeah, Sakurai jumped the gun on that one, but it's been a YEAR of Sheik/ZSS dominance now, and we can probably expect balance patches to end forever soon.

It's rapidly reaching the point of "now or never".

Not saying nerfs for Sheik aren't warranted, but what is up with this fervor? Is it because Melee Fox and Brawl MK exist that people keep assuming a solid best character just takes a huge dump on the weaker characters to the same degree? You don't see Ultra SFIV players talking about Elena or whoever like she's Chun-Li in 3rd Strike.

Probably because Ally, FOW, and some other players who went to G3 have said that they're officially giving up on Mario, Ness, etc. and switching to Sheik/ZSS.

G3 was the last straw and the camel's back has been officially broken for many.

 

[Solfiner]

True, but given the size of the roster, it's still going to boil down to a pretty abysmal number.

Not as bad as Brawl, but still pretty damn bad, especially considering SSB4 had the benefit of balance patches while Brawl didn't.

In the end, it's going to be a terrible shame because there's no reason half the roster couldn't have been legitimate tournament threats, what with balance patches. Again, maybe whoever directs SSB5 will understand this...

"there's no reason" except for budget, time and maybe man power. There are plenty of reasons really. Balancing a 50+ character game is not as easy as you make it out to be.

The team definitely understands the want of a balanced game, that is why we've been getting balance patches in the first place.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Probably because Ally, FOW, and some other players who went to G3 have said that they're officially giving up on Mario, Ness, etc. and switching to Sheik/ZSS.

Shaky said this, not FOW, and Ally's done this before (Reminder that a LOT OF PEOPLE DID ACTUALLY, Umebura FAT was the era of "I REALLY AM GONNA SWITCH TO ZSS"). Ally looks to be gravitating to Cloud (at least in Dubz but I really wouldn't be surprised if he did Cloud in singles too, he's stated he likes the character himself, I'm basing this off his tweets and shiz).

Again, I think people are REALLY, REALLY jumping the shark like Nobie said, I have my reservations about this game but I've had a day or so to cool down and I've thought about it pretty clearly, and G3 was kinda not super different, tbqh.

It's given people an outlet though, I guess there's that.

(Also you mistakenly quoted me but it's okay =3, it was Nobie's post you were quoting I believe)

 

[S_B]

The team definitely understands the want of a balanced game, that is why we've been getting balance patches in the first place.

I often think they do, as they understand the need to give characters kill confirms that will only be accessible to competitive players (ding-dong, shell shock, etc.), but then they've left the S-tier basically untouched for about a year now, even when we can clearly see how incredibly powerful these characters are and how stupidly good some of their tools are.

Shaky said this, not FOW, and Ally's done this before (Reminder that a LOT OF PEOPLE DID ACTUALLY, Umebura FAT was the era of "I REALLY AM GONNA SWITCH TO ZSS"). Ally looks to be gravitating to Cloud (at least in Dubz but I really wouldn't be surprised if he did Cloud in singles too, he's stated he likes the character himself, I'm basing this off his tweets and shiz).

Ah yeah, I mean Shaky, which is still a shame if it happens.

It's just frustrating to see the balance patches roll out and for dominant characters like this to go mostly untouched.

And as I said, we're approaching the "last patch", here. I don't want THIS to be our metagame for the next 5 years... (or until the NX's version of SSB is released)

(Also you mistakenly quoted me but it's okay =3, it was Nobie's post you were quoting I believe)

Whoops, yeah, SB forums do that on occasion.

 

[J-Lit]

People asking if zero would beat Ally/Esam with bad character eg marth.
Ok sheik gets nerfed. Can zeros marth beat Esam or ally consistently? The answer tells you buffs are answer, not nerfs.

More realistic example: Shiek gets nerfed. Zero still beats other top players cause the nerf was reasonable and shiek is still the best character in the game. And if god forbid she gets a slightly unfavorable matchup Zero will be fine using diddy, and it's good to have even the best characters benefit from secondaries in competitive play.

I'm kind of tired of this anti nerf mentality. The arguments are all centuries old and overused. Nerfing a top tier character does not equate to dethroning them from their position. It actually helps close the gap between top tiers if the nerfed character stays in the same spot on the tier list. Suggesting a nerf does not mean that that person is against buffs. We have all seen what buffs can do to characters like Ike and bowser and most of us are in support of it. Relying solely on buffs is helpful for making trash low tiers usable but does not really change much for the higher tiers and the top 10 or so characters.

Rant over. I'd honestly be fine if they decided not to Nerf shiek or zss but I think it would make top 8s more exciting. I'd also be pretty upset if high tier mains like ally and shaky decided to switch to shiek because they feel it's the only way to reach those top 3 places at big tournaments.

 

[S_B]

Relying solely on buffs is helpful for making trash low tiers usable but does not really change much for the higher tiers and the top 10 or so characters

Exactly, especially because buffing the bottom 40 characters to be on par with Sheik/ZSS would be a crazy amount of work and a TON of untested changes that could actually make the game worse in the long run.

Rant over. I'd honestly be fine if they decided not to Nerf shiek or zss but I think it would make top 8s more exciting. I'd also be pretty upset if high tier mains like ally and shaky decided to switch to shiek because they feel it's the only way to reach those top 3 places at big tournaments.

Those are the two reasons I want to see nerfs as well. I like seeing variety in grand finals. If we've reached the point where you can pretty much expect either Sheik or ZSS (or both) to be in GF, there's just no point to watching tournaments any longer, IMO.

 

[De Wolfe]

On the subject of people practicing/labbing to learn all their options, as someone who comes from a more traditional fighting game background (SF), how do you 'lab' things properly in training mode in this game? You can't even do basic stuff like record the CPU to test punishes etc.

 

[outfoxd]

On the subject of people practicing/labbing to learn all their options, as someone who comes from a more traditional fighting game background (SF), how do you 'lab' things properly in training mode in this game? You can't even do basic stuff like record the CPU to test punishes etc.

This is something I've been wondering. I wish every game had Virtua Fighter s training mode.

 

[Nah]

ngl, part of me wants patch 1.14 to officially be the last one and for no balance changes to come with it at all

I often think they do, as they understand the need to give characters kill confirms that will only be accessible to competitive players (ding-dong, shell shock, etc.), but then they've left the S-tier basically untouched for about a year now, even when we can clearly see how incredibly powerful these characters are and how stupidly good some of their tools are.

I'm....not so sure what's so inaccessible to casual players about hoo-hahs. It doesn't exactly take a genius to think of jumping and doing an Uair/aerial after throwing someone roughly vertically into the air.

 

[S_B]

I'm....not so sure what's so inaccessible to casual players about hoo-hahs. It doesn't exactly take a genius to think of jumping and doing an Uair/aerial after throwing someone roughly vertically into the air.

Half the casuals I know don't even know how to grab.

The average item using, C-stick mashing, never shielding SSB4 player will never be able to take advantage of these techs, which is why they buff characters like Bowser with them instead of, say, buffing raw knockback on his fsmash. Also, the craziness of FFAs with items means that hoo-haas are just all around less effective in general because they're more likely to be interrupted.

Also, if someone is playing FG, they've already ventured into territory where it's their own fault for not knowing what their character can really do (and what others can do to them).

 

[TheReflexWonder]

This is something I've been wondering. I wish every game had Virtua Fighter s training mode.

Stuff like this is usually what I do. It's not uncommon to play with two controllers at once for me:

I actually just came in here to post another video, though. I could see characters like Jigglypuff and Pac-Man being significantly more relevant if they (ab)used this sort of thing to extreme levels via B-Reverse, fastfall timing changes, and the like:

 

[Plain Yogurt]

In addition, if you want to work on punishing low recoveries (mostly for two-frame vulnerable punishes), pausing training mode will cause the CPU to stop moving, and you can just unpause when they're below the stage (though if there's an easier way to do this by all means someone tell me).

 

[Krysco]

I didn't watch any of Genesis 3 and I only know the results from this thread but I've got a question about it. There were players that placed lower than expected, correct? I recall hearing that Abadango didn't place too well or any Ryu or Pika mains. None in top 8 at least and I don't recall hearing any MK, Pika or Ryus getting into top 16 either. Not sure about other high tier characters like Mario and Sonic.

Sheik nerfs are being talked about again even though top 8 only had 2 of them but I'm wondering how many players/characters were effectively wiped out by a Sheik who was then wiped out later on in the tournament. Were there many Sheiks at G3? Were there any notable players who were either sent to losers or eliminated by a Sheik? I could ask all of these same questions in regards to ZSS too but the focus seems to be Sheik.

Sheik's don't have to be filling all the top spots in big tournaments for nerfs to be warranted. When you have top players of Mario, MK and Ness (who are all viable characters mind you) thinking of switching to Sheik (or adding her to their roster of characters they use at all), it seems to me to be a sign of hopelessness. Melee has the whole 20XX thing with many top players having at least a pocket Fox and by the end of Brawl there were so many MKs around, it was ridiculous. Sm4sh could easily turn out to be similar if Sheik is left as is which is unfortunate when there are almost 60 characters to choose from.

Again, I ask these questions because I honestly don't know since I didn't pay attention to G3 and because it might shed some light on why Sheik nerfs are being asked for again. Heck, maybe they're only being asked for because a Sheik won? Dabuz, Ranai, Nairo, Marss and whoever the other two non-Sheik top 8s were could have been number 1 and there could have possibly been less Sheik nerfs being asked for this time around. Maybe it's just a national thing?

Edited for minor word improvement since claiming switching to Sheik is false in some cases.

 

[Zannabluke]

TTTTTsd your prayers have been heard

god bless

 

[TTTTTsd]

TTTTTsd your prayers have been heard

god bless

Who called it? GUESS WHOOOO (few other ppl in this thread did too, I'd tag y'all if I could but you know who you are).

So can we stop saying Ally is switching solely to Sheik now as it's basically blatant misinformation? That leaves Ito who said he's EXPERIMENTING but will probably switch back to Meta Knight, and Shaky who I have no idea on.

Who else? This is why we let players and things cool off before we go off da heezy (I'm taking this advice in the future)

 

[Nobie]

Who called it? GUESS WHOOOO (few other ppl in this thread did too, I'd tag y'all if I could but you know who you are)

I did

 

[S_B]

TTTTTsd your prayers have been heard

god bless

Probably because I believe his exact words were "Mario has failed me for the last time".

MK is just a stopgap to Sheik anyway.

Dabuz, Ranai, Nairo, Marss and whoever the other two non-Sheik top 8s were could have been number 1 and there could have possibly been less Sheik nerfs being asked for this time around. Maybe it's just a national thing?

Can't speak for others, but I've been calling for Sheik/ZSS nerfs for a while now, and they're starting to show up in an "S-tier" in the tier lists of many top players, including Marss.

 

[Krysco]

Can't speak for others, but I've been calling for Sheik/ZSS nerfs for a while now, and they're starting to show up in an "S-tier" in the tier lists of many top players, including Marss.

I've seen people asking them for a while too but with them being brought up again right after G3, it gets me thinking that something must have happened with those 2 that people are wanting them nerfed again. If a Sheik didn't win and say only 1 ZSS got into top 8 then people may have looked at the top 8 plus the #1 and thought "oh, maybe ZSS and Sheik are actually manageable and don't need nerfs."

On the flip side, there'd be even more outcries for nerfs if even more of the top 8 was filled with Sheik and or ZSS.

 

[TurboLink]

Why not choose Ryu?

 

[S_B]

I've seen people asking them for a while too but with them being brought up again right after G3, it gets me thinking that something must have happened with those 2 that people are wanting them nerfed again. If a Sheik didn't win and say only 1 ZSS got into top 8 then people may have looked at the top 8 plus the #1 and thought "oh, maybe ZSS and Sheik are actually manageable and don't need nerfs.".

Not sure. Maybe because this is the first major tournament of the new year, SSB4 is over a year old now and people are just sick and tired of the general dominance of Sheik and ZSS.

And many others I'm sure watched some of their favorite players get eliminated by ZSShiek and they're probably sick of it as well.

Then there's the fact that notable players are talking about giving up their mains, some for ZSShiek, some for other characters.

For me, the thought of seeing primarily ZSShiek in GF for the remainder of SSB4's lifespan is utterly depressing. May as well go watch Melee for the "character variety" at that point... :\

 

[Charoite]

If smash 4 is any indication, smash 5 will be the same issues unless is a reboot, you can't expect a 50+ roster be perfectly balanced the time and money is simply not worth, you can ask to every single other fighting game developer (Capcom,Arc system,namco,Ed boon,) how difficult is to balance a fighting game and still developing say game.

If some think that because a or is in grand finals the tournament is not worth, then that one should question itself why are he or she is watching smash 4, because that is saying that the game is not worth of watching unless there are other characters, yes not the playstyles,not level of play, not the player's , not the strategies, not the mind games, not the mechanics, if all you can see during a GF is what character is on the screen then this game is not for you.

 

[JesterJaded]

This mentality that another character will simply take Sheik's place sounds rather baseless. The issue here is that Sheik has no objectively exploitable weaknesses, meaning no bad matchups, unlike the rest of the cast. This is why the comparison to Brawl Meta Knight exists, even if Sheik is nowhere near as domineering.

If Sheik were nerfed in some way that gave a member of the cast an advantage over her (for example, actually struggling to kill; if Dthrow U-air could only kill at like 150%, she'd have somewhat more trouble against characters like Meta Knight and ZSS who have insane killing percents.), there would instantly be more balance to this game because every character would have counter play; ZSS' tether grab can be baited, Meta Knight's Uair > shuttle loop only works at certain percents + miscellaneous other factors + can be bested in the neutral, kill Luma, catching Diddy's banana gives you an advantage, etc. There wouldn't be a "second Sheik" because no other character exists in this game without decent counterplay.

Tl;Dr: give Sheik counterplay so every character can be labbed against.

 

[Rizen]

Aside from Sheik, what are ZSS' bad MUs?

 

[Wintermelon43]

Not sure. Maybe because this is the first major tournament of the new year, SSB4 is over a year old now and people are just sick and tired of the general dominance of Sheik and ZSS.

And many others I'm sure watched some of their favorite players get eliminated by ZSShiek and they're probably sick of it as well.

Then there's the fact that notable players are talking about giving up their mains, some for ZSShiek, some for other characters.

For me, the thought of seeing primarily ZSShiek in GF for the remainder of SSB4's lifespan is utterly depressing. May as well go watch Melee for the "character variety" at that point... :\

Wait, who apart from Ally is dropping their mains?

 

[TTTTTsd]

Wait, who apart from Ally is dropping their mains?

Ally isn't DROPPING Mario at all.

Ito is experimenting with Sheik and ZSS (says he'll still play MK, and that he'll prolly come back) and Shaky talked about giving up on Ness.

Ally was the big one ppl were talking about but he literally just debunked it and said he's working on other chars to go with Mario (which, to be fair, is probably a requirement for Mario)