Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[TurboLink]

So what do you guys think of Cloud doing as well as he did despite the recent release? Could it be lack of matchup knowledge ir something else?

Lack of matchup knowledge + low skill floor + privileges = Cloud's success.

 

[Deathcarter]

Okay, I already gave my piece on Sheik being over tuned but yeash. Waaaaay too many people on the nerf Sheik bandwagon in this thread are starting to forget what truly put Genesis 3 over the top for the Smash Wii U meta. It wasn't just character diversity, it was seeing players like Dabuz, Ranai, FOW, Mars, Hyuga, VoiD, Zero and many others push their characters and themselves to their limit. This time last year at Apex, Dabuz was easily the most derided Smash player by spectators and he didn't even play the best character. At Genesis he was playing out of his damn mind and showed off Rosalina tech and traps I've never see before. He finally beat Nairo and took Zero to game 5 in both the sets they played. This was the first real time we in America had experienced Villager play of Ranai's caliber and even Zero himself said that his match Ranai was one of the toughest matches he ever played. We had upsets galore, Mars showng everyone he's a top threat, Mexico showing us they're not to be slept on, and overall just seeing the field at the top get a lot more competitive and fierce instead of Zero being head and shoulders above everyone else like most of last year.

We witnessed the culmination of a year of development in the Smash 4 at the largest Smash tournament ever and people are going to choose NOW to scream that the sky is falling and Sheik will kill the game?! We're better than that people and this thread, the community, and Smash 4 deserve better. Even if Sheik/ZSS don't get nerfed in the end there's never been a better time to be optimistic over the future of Smash Wii U.

 

[LancerStaff]

I think nerfs to Sheik and co. would do good, but nerfing them out of the general area would start a vicious cycle because of how Smash truely works...

Like I said before, there's no honest characters. So really, how good a character does against another is determined by who out BSes the other. If we just completely removed all of the top 15's important tools and then the next 15 would take their place.

I do believe the cycle would eventually break, but you would probably have to go through the whole cast multiple times. Not really feasible for one or two balance patches... So we're probably going to be stuck with Sheik being Sheik, a bunch of characters true comboing into their Uspecials for ridiculously early kills and so on. IMHO the average power level in this game is way too high.

 

[S_B]

Melee's also been around for a decade...

...Which normally would make more people fall away from it, not discover and want to play it.

Games typically get LESS popular with time, not the other way around. Melee is a remarkable rarity in this regard.

Those are only common in GFs because ZeRo and Nairo meet in GFs so often. After them you have people like Dabuz, Esam, and Ally, who don't play either of them.

It's pretty common in many locals and regionals as well. Most mid-sized tournaments that I've seen have at least one dominant ZSSheik.

Wut.
Maybe, like, low/bottom tier get invalidated by them and them alone, but a sizable chunk?

Low tier actually tends to be invalidated by multiple characters going up the ladder, and those are the characters who genuinely need buffs outside of nerfing ZSSheik.

It's mid-high tiers who tend to have reasonable or even matchups with much of the cast but lose horribly to ZSSheik who would be doing a lot better were they toned down.

I wish we had a proper matchup chart made at this point, but ZSSheik ARE the worst matchup for a majority of the roster.

 

[ligersandtigons]

This thread evolved into cancerous debate.

Facts:
- the best player won a 1000+ man major with the best character, while using his second best character over 50% of the time wrecking everyone with it.
- 26 different characters were present in the Top64 of a 1000+ man major!
- Only 2 Sheiks in Top8, 3 in Top16, 6 in Top32, No Sheik has lost against another Sheik.
- All Sheiks in Top32 are considered Sheik mains. No secondaries. No pocket Sheik that pushed someone in that placing.

Why do people suddenly talk like the game is done, without a Sheik nerf? of course everyone would appreciate it, because she is clearly the best character but come on. Talking about nerfing Sheik as the solution of this game after her relatively low impact at the most stacked tournament ever doesn't make sense.

The only thing I see when looking at the Top8 of Genesis, I clearly see, the best player won, the second place went to a guy who labbed infinitely hard the past year etc.

I understand, that TSM ZeRo invaded this thread to tell you to get good, because this thread deviated to this debate for no reason.

If anything, Genesis 3 proved that this game would be fine character-wise if it'd stay this way forever. But of course it would be even better with some tweeking, but it's not like "PATCH OR DIE".

pls. Stop this non-sense.

minor nitpick but Trevonte lost to Cacogen in a Sheik ditto within top 32

 

[Strong-Arm]

I do feel this thread is continuing in a loop of Sheik/ZSS nerf discussion. We've talked about it to death, we should move on an analyze characters overall. We're wasting our time in a lot of ways by endlessly discussing nerfs to sheik and Zss. We wont know if theyll be touched or nerfed till Febuary. So lets just chill on that topic and move on.

 

[S_B]

We witnessed the culmination of a year of development in the Smash 4 at the largest Smash tournament ever and people are going to choose NOW to scream that the sky is falling and Sheik will kill the game?!

Some people have been saying that all along (or at least asking for Sheik nerfs).

Also, the last balance patch ever may very well be coming next month.

We're better than that people and this thread, the community, and Smash 4 deserve better. Even if Sheik/ZSS don't get nerfed in the end there's never been a better time to be optimistic over the future of Smash Wii U.

Eh, we spend most of this thread discussing how OP unreleased characters are going to be or trying to place Cloud in a tier list a week after he's released.

The irony is that when we try to discuss things like whether or not balance patches are good for the meta, people say the thread has turned "cancerous" and is out of control.

And then when people are shown tournament results and how generally dominant Sheik and ZSS are, they say ridiculous things like, "WELL, YOU CAN'T GO ON TOURNAMENT RESULTS ALONE TO DECIDE NERFS!!!", as if theorycrafting nonsense is a better way to decide who needs nerfing and who doesn't.

So here's some "theory" for folks: Cloud is fine and won't be nerfed.

There, I said it.

 

[ARGHETH]

And then when people are shown tournament results and how generally dominant Sheik and ZSS are, they say ridiculous things like, "WELL, YOU CAN'T GO ON TOURNAMENT RESULTS ALONE TO DECIDE NERFS!!!", as if theorycrafting nonsense is a better way to decide who needs nerfing and who doesn't.

The last tournament was Genesis 3, which wasn't exactly overrun with ZSSs and Sheiks...

It's mid-high tiers who tend to have reasonable or even matchups with much of the cast but lose horribly to ZSSheik who would be doing a lot better were they toned down.

Okay, seriously, who are these characters that lose horribly to ZSS and Sheik other then DK/Bowser/Rob/characters with huge hitboxes?

 

[Rizen]

I do feel this thread is continuing in a loop of Sheik/ZSS nerf discussion.

This thread's not in a loop; it must be your imagination.

I do feel this thread is continuing in a loop of Sheik/ZSS nerf discussion.

This thread's not in a loop; it must be your imagination.

I do feel this thread is continuing in a loop of Sheik/ZSS nerf discussion.

This thread's not in a loop; it must be your imagination.
()

Seriously though, has Mewtwo gotten results since his buffs? I didn't see Mewtwos place at genesis. It's hard to tell how good/bad he is at this point.

 

[Deathcarter]

Some people have been saying that all along (or at least asking for Sheik nerfs).

Also, the last balance patch ever may very well be coming next month.



Eh, we spend most of this thread discussing how OP unreleased characters are going to be or trying to place Cloud in a tier list a week after he's released.

The irony is that when we try to discuss things like whether or not balance patches are good for the meta, people say the thread has turned "cancerous" and is out of control.

And then when people are shown tournament results and how generally dominant Sheik and ZSS are, they say ridiculous things like, "WELL, YOU CAN'T GO ON TOURNAMENT RESULTS ALONE TO DECIDE NERFS!!!", as if theorycrafting nonsense is a better way to decide who needs nerfing and who doesn't.

So here's some "theory" for folks: Cloud is fine and won't be nerfed.

There, I said it.

Practically everyone acknowledges how dominant Sheik and ZSS are and most people will concede that they warrant some nerfs. What people have a problem with is when posters exaggerate the negative effect those two have on the meta and act like almost nobody else in the cast can remotely compete against those two.

 

[Krysco]

I apologize for my earlier post being part of the 'loop' of Sheik nerf cries. I'm no competitive player (yet) but I would enjoy it if Sheik and ZSS got minor nerfs, or at the very least just Sheik. No one mentioned any notable players getting taken out early by a Sheik so I'm guessing it didn't happen, or at least not early on. Perhaps the cries are because a Sheik won or x number of Sheiks made it to top 8/16/32/64. Or it's just a national thing or there's just the fact that it's a reoccurring topic here.

If people wish to move away from the Sheik nerf talk than how about this as a question/hypothetical scenario. When Corrin and Bayo come and we get another patch, say Sheik doesn't get nerfed. Say instead, characters get buffed again. Could there be a chance that a character gets buffed enough to at least give her 1 negative mu, even if only slightly? The most likely way this would happen would be buffing a character with an even or not terrible mu against her. Pretty sure most characters that fall under that category are top/high tier themselves like ZSS, Rosa, Sonic and MK but I do recall Lucario being considered a decent character against Sheik comparatively.

With all of the options Sheik has, does it seem possible for a character to get buffed enough to be a problem for her?

 

[HFlash]

Aside from Sheik, what are ZSS' bad MUs?

hence, why Nairo uses against ESAM.

 

[S_B]

Okay, seriously, who are these characters that lose horribly to ZSS and Sheik other then DK/Bowser/Rob/characters with huge hitboxes?

Most of the FE crew, Little Mac, G&W, Zelda, JP, DH, Samus, Shulk... it also depends upon what you mean by "lose horribly", but I'm pretty sure most characters cite either Sheik or ZSS as their worst matchup in the game and I don't know of any that really go positive against them.

ESAM believes Pikachu has a positive matchup against ZSS, I believe, but again, general consensus seems to be that these are the two hardest characters in the game to deal with.

The exception might be situations like Roslina vs. Ness where she massively invalidates his recovery, but the matchups with ZSS and Sheik are still seldom considered favorable. The Ness boards actually believe that Ness has an advantage on ZSS, but I'm not seeing this in practice...

 

[Mr. Johan]

hence, why Nairo uses against ESAM.

Who then promptly went back to and reverse 3-0'd ESAM after his got roundly beaten at G3.

 

[HFlash]

Who then promptly went back to and reverse 3-0'd ESAM after his got roundly beaten at G3.

The fact that ESAM destroyed Nairo's Dr. M doesn't mean that ZSS has a better MU. Remember that Nairo already beat ESAM with him, in MLG. ESAM more than likely has prepared for the MU since then and on top of that, Nairo just is a much better ZSS player than Doc, hence the reverse 3-0. Add injury to insult that ESAM has kinda dropped off as of late while Nairo has only gotten better further elucidates why you shouldn't that take that set as a huge real indicator of those respective MUs.

 

[ARGHETH]

Most of the FE crew, Little Mac, G&W, Zelda, JP, DH, Samus, Shulk..

I looked through the boards' MU threads to look at what their mains think.

Marcina, Roy, LM? - Sheik is worst MU.
Ike - Ike mains in this thread and their MU thread have said that Sheik is manageable ( I saw 40 - 60)
Robin -Sheik isn't that bad, but ZSS is a bad MU (with customs Mii Brawler, lol)
G&W - Have yet to talk about either of them
Zelda - LM, Peach, and Diddy are at the same ratio as Sheik (35- 65).
Jigglypuff - Diddy is worse.
Duck Hunt - Falcon, Diddy, and Yoshi are worse MUs.
Samus - Fox, Mario, and Pikachu are worse.
Shulk - Hates Fox and Sonic, Sheik may or may not be on that level. ZSS isn't too bad.

This is just by a quick glance, though.

 

[TSM ZeRo]

This thread evolved into cancerous debate.

Facts:
- the best player won a 1000+ man major with the best character, while using his second best character over 50% of the time wrecking everyone with it.
- 26 different characters were present in the Top64 of a 1000+ man major!
- Only 2 Sheiks in Top8, 3 in Top16, 6 in Top32, No Sheik has lost against another Sheik.
- All Sheiks in Top32 are considered Sheik mains. No secondaries. No pocket Sheik that pushed someone in that placing.

Why do people suddenly talk like the game is done, without a Sheik nerf? of course everyone would appreciate it, because she is clearly the best character but come on. Talking about nerfing Sheik as the solution of this game after her relatively low impact at the most stacked tournament ever doesn't make sense.

The only thing I see when looking at the Top8 of Genesis, I clearly see, the best player won, the second place went to a guy who labbed infinitely hard the past year etc.

I understand, that TSM ZeRo invaded this thread to tell you to get good, because this thread deviated to this debate for no reason.

If anything, Genesis 3 proved that this game would be fine character-wise if it'd stay this way forever. But of course it would be even better with some tweeking, but it's not like "PATCH OR DIE".

pls. Stop this non-sense.

best post

 

[LRodC]

You know what I can't stand about the community? You guys ***** and moan about what you can't beat because you're not good enough to improve and learn options you have. How much are you practicing? Where are you at in tournaments trying to further the metagame of your character? Oh wait, you're not, because that's difficult. You're just sitting on an Internet forum ******** about your character's weaknesses and other characters' strengths and wanting patches to make it easier for you.

I'm calling out people that have tons of posts on here and do nothing but complain about top tier characters being too strong or low tier characters being too weak, plus begging for nerfs and buffs. Because that's all you can do. Spend time getting good, not just contributing noise. Do something to actually assist the community for once instead of ******** about patches, you bunch of spoiled babies. Say what you want about ZeRo, but I agree with him here. Get good. That's what his opponents did at G3, and it showed.

Edit: Can't believe I got warned for this. What a joke.

 

[ARGHETH]

You know what I can't stand about the community? You guys ***** and moan about what you can't beat because you're not good enough to improve and learn options you have. How much are you practicing? Where are you at in tournaments trying to further the metagame of your character? Oh wait, you're not, because that's difficult. You're just sitting on an Internet forum ******** about your character's weaknesses and other characters' strengths and wanting patches to make it easier for you.

I'm calling out people that have tons of posts on here and do nothing but complain about top tier characters being too strong or low tier characters being too weak. Because that's all you can do. Spend time getting good, not just contributing noise. Do something to actually assist the community for once instead of ******** about patches, you bunch of spoiled babies. Say what you want about ZeRo, but I agree with him here. Get good. That's what his opponents did at G3, and it showed.

Look, complaining about us complaining isn't going to do any good. These people are trying to practice, they are trying to "further the metagame of [their] character", but to them, it isn't working against Sheik. That's the problem. They're seeing a problem with Sheik, and speculating on what could bring her in line with the rest of the cast; whether it's warranted or not shouldn't matter.

Also, I'm 90% sure this is a red topic.

 

[DblCrest]

You know what I can't stand about the community? You guys ***** and moan about what you can't beat because you're not good enough to improve and learn options you have. How much are you practicing? Where are you at in tournaments trying to further the metagame of your character? Oh wait, you're not, because that's difficult. You're just sitting on an Internet forum ******** about your character's weaknesses and other characters' strengths and wanting patches to make it easier for you.

I'm calling out people that have tons of posts on here and do nothing but complain about top tier characters being too strong or low tier characters being too weak, plus begging for nerfs and buffs. Because that's all you can do. Spend time getting good, not just contributing noise. Do something to actually assist the community for once instead of ******** about patches, you bunch of spoiled babies. Say what you want about ZeRo, but I agree with him here. Get good. That's what his opponents did at G3, and it showed.

...and here's where things get even worse. Lovely

 

[LRodC]

Look, complaining about us complaining isn't going to do any good. These people are trying to practice, they are trying to "further the metagame of [their] character", but to them, it isn't working against Sheik. That's the problem. They're seeing a problem with Sheik, and speculating on what could bring her in line with the rest of the cast; whether it's warranted or not shouldn't matter.

Also, I'm 90% sure this is a red topic.

If that's the case, why wasn't G3's top 32 all Sheik then? Crazy how it didn't work out that way. It's also crazy how some Sheik players didn't make it out of pools and how ZeRo beat Sheik with Diddy Kong. If Sheik is really this metagame destroying monster that she's made out to be here, then why did it work out that way? Surely it couldn't be the players, right?

 

[ARGHETH]

If that's the case, why wasn't G3's top 32 all Sheik then? Crazy how it didn't work out that way. It's also crazy how some Sheik players didn't make it out of pools and how ZeRo beat Sheik with Diddy Kong. If Sheik is really this metagame destroying monster that she's made out to be here, then why did it work out that way? Surely it couldn't be the players, right?

Look, being sarcastic and passive aggressive isn't helping. We aren't saying she's a metagame destroying monster; that's Brawl MK. Literally no one here thinks she's that bad, all they think is that she's overtuned relative to the rest of the cast. ( I personally don't think she's that bad, but still)
ZeRo is kind of also one of the best players of the game. Player skill matters. It's why Brawl tournaments didn't end up being all MK, after all, and nobody's denying that he's way too OP.

 

[zeldasmash]

If that's the case, why wasn't G3's top 32 all Sheik then? Crazy how it didn't work out that way. It's also crazy how some Sheik players didn't make it out of pools and how ZeRo beat Sheik with Diddy Kong. If Sheik is really this metagame destroying monster that she's made out to be here, then why did it work out that way? Surely it couldn't be the players, right?

Because the guy is Zero, undisputedly the best player in the game.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

minor nitpick but Trevonte lost to Cacogen in a Sheik ditto within top 32

That seals it then.

Ban Sheik.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Well this is getting nowhere....... So.....

What do people think of Mr. Game & Watch currently after Regi's crew battle? I personally think he went up from low-mid to mid tier. He has good recovery, good aierals, a good move to absorb certain projectiles, good jab, good dash attack, and great combos, but not many throw combos (Mr. Game & Watch uses other moves for combos) or kill throws, trouble KOing, and bad... something else that I can't think of, I think it was range but not sure.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I need to see what that man did. I was hearing crazy stuff about'em. Didn't he placed well in singles too?

 

[Smog Frog]

i think he drowned in pools. i don't recall seeing him in top 32.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

He basically did (bummer) according to this: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Genesis_3

 

[Nobie]

A mid-day comparison of both games (when the Melee fanboys were laughing about it).



Melee has wavedashing as the great equalizer, though, allowing characters with worse frame data still a chance to flourish due to unorthodox methods of approach.

If Brawl had had wavedashing, who knows where the game would be right now.

And SSB4 doesn't have it or anything like it, so frame data and toolkits are really all we have to go on.



Again, SSB4 doesn't have the advanced techs that Melee does (which have ironically kept the meta developing onward for the past 15 years).

Unless we discover wavedashing in SSB4 or something similar, nothing is going to magically make the inferior frame data of many characters better.

Also, no one said "no one likes or watches the game" (though a lot of Melee players would say this), but the numbers on the Melee stream were around 25k while SSB4 was 14k.

This is the #1 mistake people make when talking about Smash Bros.

What I'm about to say isn't a Melee vs. Smash 4 debate. Both are good games, in my opinion, and whether you prefer one over the other isn't a big deal. What I'd like to say is simply, the Smash Community has an unhealthy obsession with "advanced techniques."

Back when Brawl first came out, and the physics were different, people were so desperate to find the next "wavedash." They wanted to unlock that special secret that made the game more like Melee, even if it wasn't waveashing itself, and I think it negatively impacted people's image of the game. In Smash 4, the same thing happened: "Is perfect pivot the new wavedash?!" Some Brawl players even complained that Smash 4 didn't have enough Brawl-esque ATs to their liking.

Here's the thing: the quality of a game, and its potential for competition, is not founded on how many "advanced techniques" there are. It is the fundamentals, the base of the game and its rules, that determine how far a game will go (provided no game-breaking glitches are unavoidable). 3rd Strike would not have been a shallow game without kara throwing, Street Fighter II would not be unplayable without option selects, and Melee didn't NEED wavedashing, though it added both interesting gameplay options and a kind of visceral excitement.

I think what actually gets me about the old obsession with advanced techniques that I had hoped died already is the implication that Melee would have just up and died without them. Is the core game really that unpleasant and shallow? I don't believe so.

Without any sort of ultra obscure technique that alters the physics of the game greatly, do we actually know everything there is to know about each character? Do we understand the human to human interaction that occurs when different characters face each other? Is there a perceivable skill ceiling that's well within sight? If not, this game, and plenty of other games are fine.

 

[Tizio Random]

Am I the only one that thinks that the metagame for Cloud won't evolve too much from here? I mean, they will discover some combo, new method to return on stage considering his recovery or good setups with limits but the character seems to have such a low skill floor and skill ceiling that everytime I see Cloud in action it's like those are all the things he can do imho. Maybe I'm totally wrong but almost every other character appear to me as much deeper.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Am I the only one that thinks that the metagame for Cloud won't evolve too much from here? I mean, they will discover some combo, new method to return on stage considering his recovery or good setups with limits but the character seems to have such a low skill floor and skill ceiling that everytime I see Cloud in action it's like those are all the things he can do imho. Maybe I'm totally wrong but almost every other character appear to me as much deeper.

Metagames don't develop overnight ya'know.

 

[Tizio Random]

Metagames don't develop overnight ya'know.

I know but he looks so straight-forward with bread and butter options to my eyes that as of now I really can't see him taking any direction. I should have said "as of now" in my previous post, my bad. Maybe tomorrow they will discover some cool tech like Sheik or Rosalina and the character will change forever, who knows.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I know but he looks so straight-forward with bread and butter options to my eyes that as of now I really can't see him taking any direction. I should have said "as of now" in my previous post, my bad. Maybe tomorrow they will discover some cool tech like Sheik or Rosalina and the character will change forever, who knows.

A character doesn't have to be some technical monster to be deep. he'll naturally get deep when people start labbing out his MUs and different ways to use his moves

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

You know what I can't stand about the community? You guys ***** and moan about what you can't beat because you're not good enough to improve and learn options you have. How much are you practicing? Where are you at in tournaments trying to further the metagame of your character? Oh wait, you're not, because that's difficult. You're just sitting on an Internet forum ******** about your character's weaknesses and other characters' strengths and wanting patches to make it easier for you.

I'm calling out people that have tons of posts on here and do nothing but complain about top tier characters being too strong or low tier characters being too weak, plus begging for nerfs and buffs. Because that's all you can do. Spend time getting good, not just contributing noise. Do something to actually assist the community for once instead of ******** about patches, you bunch of spoiled babies. Say what you want about ZeRo, but I agree with him here. Get good. That's what his opponents did at G3, and it showed.

*sigh* It's post like this which aren't based in reason or fact just calling people out. Zero maybe able to do that but unfortunately you don't get that. I'd continue but I don't want to get banned.

Nerf sheik and zss.

 

[Big-Cat]

This is the #1 mistake people make when talking about Smash Bros.

What I'm about to say isn't a Melee vs. Smash 4 debate. Both are good games, in my opinion, and whether you prefer one over the other isn't a big deal. What I'd like to say is simply, the Smash Community has an unhealthy obsession with "advanced techniques."

Back when Brawl first came out, and the physics were different, people were so desperate to find the next "wavedash." They wanted to unlock that special secret that made the game more like Melee, even if it wasn't waveashing itself, and I think it negatively impacted people's image of the game. In Smash 4, the same thing happened: "Is perfect pivot the new wavedash?!" Some Brawl players even complained that Smash 4 didn't have enough Brawl-esque ATs to their liking.

Here's the thing: the quality of a game, and its potential for competition, is not founded on how many "advanced techniques" there are. It is the fundamentals, the base of the game and its rules, that determine how far a game will go (provided no game-breaking glitches are unavoidable). 3rd Strike would not have been a shallow game without kara throwing, Street Fighter II would not be unplayable without option selects, and Melee didn't NEED wavedashing, though it added both interesting gameplay options and a kind of visceral excitement.

I think what actually gets me about the old obsession with advanced techniques that I had hoped died already is the implication that Melee would have just up and died without them. Is the core game really that unpleasant and shallow? I don't believe so.

Without any sort of ultra obscure technique that alters the physics of the game greatly, do we actually know everything there is to know about each character? Do we understand the human to human interaction that occurs when different characters face each other? Is there a perceivable skill ceiling that's well within sight? If not, this game, and plenty of other games are fine.

Oh my God this. I think the obession with AT's though is also a mix of trying to sound deep and naming yourself after something discovered.

 

[Blobface]

Cloud still has plenty of time to develop. Remember, development isn't just tech or difficult-to-perform combos. It's anything that better fleshes out a characters gameplan and/or adds something new to it.

 

[Broqan]

So do people still think sheik can't kill?

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

It's not just Cloud but this entire meta game is still in the toddler stages, so there's a great deal to be discovered. People invest way too much time about complaining about certain tools rather than see what can be done to get around them. Genesis definitely had its fair share of top tiers making it to the final rounds but we saw Toon Links, a Dedede, a Wii Fit and several other under-represented characters get very far. A PIT took a game off ZeRo. I would think feats like this would MOTIVATE people to go further. Japan clearly sees things that we don't. We have so much work to do, its insane.

 

[Sinister Slush]

It's not just Cloud but this entire meta game is still in the toddler stages, so there's a great deal to be discovered. People invest way too much time about complaining about certain tools rather than see what can be done to get around them. Genesis definitely had its fair share of top tiers making it to the final rounds but we saw Toon Links, a Dedede, a Wii Fit and several other under-represented characters get very far. A PIT took a game off ZeRo. I would think feats like this would MOTIVATE people to go further. Japan clearly sees things that we don't. We have so much work to do, its insane.

Along with the fact because the game is still pretty young even with only a year and couple months under its belt that upsets happen due to MU inexperience for some top players losing to something in a set or game that we never would've thought would happen, and most places have no clear ruleset or stagelist to settle on in terms of stocks stages and if miis should be allowed freely or not like EU and some rare places in the US.

Also I think not everyone is talking about Genesis 3 results being why Sheik needs to get nerfed, pretty sure a bit of it is also the fact a handful of players that have tried to make other top/high tiers work for them the entire year finally had the last straw at this international and are moving onto Sheik and ZSS for their main while throwing the other old main as a secondary for certain matchups.

 

[NogGoggler]

Along with the fact because the game is still pretty young even with only a year and couple months under its belt that upsets happen due to MU inexperience for some top players losing to something in a set or game that we never would've thought would happen, and most places have no clear ruleset or stagelist to settle on in terms of stocks stages and if miis should be allowed freely or not like EU and some rare places in the US.

Also I think not everyone is talking about Genesis 3 results being why Sheik needs to get nerfed, pretty sure a bit of it is also the fact a handful of players that have tried to make other top/high tiers work for them the entire year finally had the last straw at this international and are moving onto Sheik and ZSS for their main while throwing the other old main as a secondary for certain matchups.

Yeah, on Twitter, ally, nakat, and shaky were thinking about moving to sheik/ZSS. However I think they're being waaaaaay too hasty. We see how FOW, Larry Lurr, and Ranai did with worse characters. They need to just push more tbh