Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Das Koopa]

May just be me, but I'm under the opinion that a large amount of the mechanical changes from brawl make the game less fun to play. The new airdodging mechanics in particular really annoy me since it allows the opponent to recover and escape juggles for free. The new ledge, rolling, and shield mechanics also make the game less enjoyable in my opinion.

I vastly prefer the ability play the game at a speed greater than 2MPH

 

[TriTails]

What?

Are you actually serious right now. I'm not gonna say any more for now because I need to know if this is a serious post or not.

This had happened to me. But I play FG 3DS so maybe you guys don't experience it.

I have ever get like 7 Japanese people leaving me in a row. I kid you not.

But ah well. I suppose my English name caused them to mistook me for living somewhere else. My bad on calling them racist. Was rather salty remembering stuffs because I had to wait minutes for people to actually fight me and even then, the fight lagged.

Now I feel very guilty.

 

[A10theHero]

I once thought Fox beat Pika, but now I'm convinced Larry just has ESAM's number.

Pika-Fox is still a miserably volatile match though.

I've noticed that in quite a few Smash-related places I frequent, many people usually write off this matchup because Fox is a fastfaller and therefore he's just "combo food". If only it was as simple as that...

Can you explain when it's actually a GOOD idea for Pika to challenge Ryu in neutral?

Well, it's a good idea when you want to win. To win the match, you have to play the game. And to play the game, you have to play the neutral, even if it involves challenging Ryu.
Light jabs aside, it's a good idea to challenge Ryu in neutral when you can punish his attacks. Quick Attack, up tilt, and Fair are all moves that can lead into good strings and combos. SHAC Dair can go over a lot of Ryu's ground attacks, so it is a valid option as well. It can lead into quite a few things as well, such as an edgeguarding situation if Ryu is launched offstage or a jab lock if a tech is missed. Fair is also good to use when it doesn't involve challenging Ryu's stinky feet (fair and dair).
Even then, the match for Pikachu isn't simply punishing attacks. Dtilt is an attack with good range and safety on shield. Thunder Jolt is an alright option too. It can clash with Ryu's projectile and if it hits him then that can lead into a Quick Attack, a grab, or an aerial.
Running away and shielding are options too, but they are definitely not Pikachu's only options in the neutral.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Basically what im saying is everything Pika does in neutral confronations involves risk. More risk then what Ryu is doing in general. And with no clean kill confirms Ryu is going to consistently be super angry and Pika doesnt like that. For the record I think the match is even.

And Ryu def doesnt lose to Mario. And False just beat 6wx. Ryu vs Sonic. Another match I feel is even.

I think Mr.R might just be a lil disillusioned about Ryu. Then again he did say his opinion was controversial.

 

[Mili]

Basically what im saying is everything Pika does in neutral confronations involves risk. More risk then what Ryu is doing in general. And with no clean kill confirms Ryu is going to consistently be super angry and Pika doesnt like that. For the record I think the match is even.

And Ryu def doesnt lose to Mario. And False just beat 6wx. Ryu vs Sonic. Another match I feel is even.

I think Mr.R might just be a lil disillusioned about Ryu. Then again he did say his opinion was controversial.

Where / When did False beat 6WX? So if you think that and are even for us, would you even say that Ryu has bad matchups? Those two are what most people say are two of Ryu's rather bad matchups. I would agree that is even but ... not so much.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

What are people opinions on vs, i ask because dabu won convincingly vs Venom ryu, i think the MU is mostly but very volatile, because how ryu can kill Luma and rosa very fast, but rosa can edgeguard ryu with luma and her disjoints. thoughts?

Pulling theory from the vicinity of my ass, I'd say that Ryu can't really count on Focus Attack to absorb stray hits since Luma provides a double tap to break its armor. But Ryu can (probably) kill Luma fairly easily so...

Also Ryu's high hitlag (that is a thing, right?) will come into play a LOT since Luma counts for this sort of thing. Speaking from personal non-Ryu experience (Ganondorf, to be precise), this can get Rosalina killed if she spotdodges a high-hitlag move. It'll hit Luma anyway and keep the hitbox active through the end of her intangibility frames.

 

[Nobie]

Watching Mr.E's Marth vs. Venom's Ryu, it was clear that Marth has the chops to keep up in that matchup. However, Marth would make a mistake, eat a Focus Attack into Shoryuken, and seemed unable to recover from the deficit.

I don't know if it's Mr. E having trouble coming from behind, Marth being a character that has problems doing so (outside of landing solid tipper f-smashes), or a combination of the two.

In general, watching Marth is watching this glimmer of hope, and then having it slowly fade away as he gets overwhelmed by *stuff*.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Where / When did False beat 6WX? So if you think that and are even for us, would you even say that Ryu has bad matchups? Those two are what most people say are two of Ryu's rather bad matchups. I would agree that is even but ... not so much.

KTAR XVI. Also, Blue, a Mewtwo player, got twelfth. Not as good as last time, but still really good in a stacked tourney.

 

[Yikarur]

Thanks, will add this stuff to the list

-Second Yoshi Nat top 8
-First R.O.B top 8 in a National that I'm aware of.
-First Greninja Top 8 in a National that I'm aware of.

German results are probably not that popular. But I'll try to post them every time.

I'll try to summarize the german meta game briefly. I might miss something and some things are probably half a year ago but I'll try to post as much information as possible. Germany is probably europe's strongest country, as stated by Mr-R (europes strongest player) on twitter.

Facts about german tournament results:
Characters:
- There are sometimes 's in Top8.
- Everyone plays so 3 in Top8 are not rare
- There are always at least 2 in Top8.
- Tournament wins in german nationals from 2015 until today: Pre-Diddy-Patch: | Post: ( ) ( )


Players:
- cyve , has the most tournaments wins. He lost tournaments to Semifer , Sodrek , Mr-R (Netherlands), and Luigi_player (Austrian) and dropped a set to Longuw
- Sodrek didn't attend many tournament until recently. Sodrek took a set off Mr-R in April with Fox. Won 2 tournaments against cyve in GF and got second to Mr-R while outplacing cyve. He dropped a set to Eddy today.
- Light does pretty well at tournament. He lost multiple times to cyve Sodrek but is placed right after them most of the time. He dropped a set to wusi , Long0uw and vyQ (austrian) though.
- Long0uw is pretty consistent, with winning sets over cyve, Light (but is placing lower than them in general) and Semifer. He has a perfect losing record to wusi and Sodrekthough and has dropped a set to Cyfersquad
- Semifer doesn't attend tournament outside of his regions but has 2 tournament wins (pre-patch , and post ) and has a 2:0 set record against cyve in tournament. He has a perfect losing record to Biggad (who has a perfect winning record over any Fox) and set loses to Sodrek and Long0uw
- wusi didn't attend the most recent tournament, but has a perfect record against Longouw and a set win over Light. He loses almost exclusively to cyve and Sodrek with one set lose to BluB and one to Light in the more recent tournaments.


Honorable mention:
- Biggad doesn't attend tournaments outside of his region. He has a perfect record over Semifer and wusi but has set loses to Light and Long0uw and many random loses on top of that. He uses mainly but for certain match-ups. (like )
- Eddy sometimes places Top8 but placed fourth today, beating Sodrek with and beating vyQ (Austria) with !



Most german tournaments are streamed on www.twitch.tv/smashlabsde so try to follow them if you're interested in german nationals. There is an upcoming national on January 29-31 with singles being played on the 30th. If you're interested you should visit the channel on that day.

If you would form a tier list based on german results Sheik and Fox would be S Tier. We don't have any successful ZSS players though.

 

[Thinkaman]

If nothing else, this fits my worldview that people underrate post-nerf Diddy and Luigi, and possibly always will.

I totally buy Samus suffering hard against MK and Pikachu, but who does she do best against among the most relevant characters beyond Luigi?

 

[san.]

SM was able to get 9th going all at the Socal tournament. I wouldn't be surprised if he was the only Ike player at that tournament despite having 180+ entrants.

I still think Luigi is good, but I'm just not sure how good. I'm not sure if I'd consider him great anymore, just good. Still quite a bit up there.

 

[Jaguar360]

Thanks, will add this stuff to the list

-Second Yoshi Nat top 8
-First R.O.B top 8 in a National that I'm aware of.
-First Greninja Top 8 in a National that I'm aware of.

Ninja's had other top 8 national placings. iStudying has gotten Top 8 at some European nationals (one of which he got 2nd to Mr. R and he won another) and I'm fairly certain than Eddy and Elexiao also have Top 8s in European nationals.

aMSa was just one match from Top 8 at Apex :/.

 

[Latias]

KTAR XVI. Also, Blue, a Mewtwo player, got twelfth. Not as good as last time, but still really good in a stacked tourney.

Blue got ninth.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Blue got ninth.

Woops, I forgot how the numbers work. The top twelve players are guaranteed ninth right?

 

[R3D3MON]

A samus beating a Luigi

Never seen it done before.

Nope.

Uhh.....ESAM vs Larry at CEO? Sorry if this statement was a joke, but there are definitely instances of samus beating luigi, and this happened before the buffs to samus and nerfs to luigi.

SM was able to get 9th going all at the Socal tournament. I wouldn't be surprised if he was the only Ike player at that tournament despite having 180+ entrants.

I still think Luigi is good, but I'm just not sure how good. I'm not sure if I'd consider him great anymore, just good. Still quite a bit up there.

Sheik craps on luigi. He already lost to her rather badly pre-patch, but now has it even worse.
Projectile users that can wall out or out-zone luigi. This has always been a problem for luigi in every iteration of the series. In particular, I think villager can easily destroy luigi if played properly (specifically during ledgeguarding situations, where one fair or bair gimp from villager after luigi uses his double jump basically means death, similar to mario: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgYQrbAfiUg). Also if I am not mistaken mega man also somewhat restricts luigi's ability to punish effectively if megaman properly walls out luigi. However I would like to know more information regarding luigi vs. projectile-heavy characters.

Speaking of edgeguarding, Luigi is rather easy to edgeguard if you know what to expect. His offstage game is pretty similar to fox/falco: side-b if you are too far away horizontally, then drop low and jump+up-b and sweetspot the ledge. Luigi of course has tornado mixups, but tornado is rather laggy, and can be punished accordingly if you space yourself properly. Often times taking luigi's double jump away means death for the luigi, since luigi's up-b has pitiful vertical distance and poor horizontal distance. Also luigi can be punished during his up-b sequence since he is only intangible for 3 frames at the start of the move. Luigi's side-b is also super laggy and super punishable (video example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqGz6eS9_1k skip to 1:50 and 4:30 in the video). Overall, I consider luigi's recovery level to be a better version of dr.mario: they are both gimpable, but luigi has more mixups and distance).

Luigi is definitely a good character, but does not get enough reward from his grabs (d-throw at low percents is not very useful on fast fallers and certain middle weights, d-throw at high percents requires a proper read, d-throw > tornado is not a thing, SJP is suuper unsafe and hard to hit, tornado kills at later % than pre-nerf and is easier to get out of) and his other combo starters were also nerfed (i.e. d-tilt), which restricts his punish game even more. Combined with luigi's terrible mobility issues, this is not a good thing for luigi. Top tiers that have better neutral than luigi or a better punish game than luigi beats luigi solidly since they have the mobility, power, and frame data to keep the pressure on luigi (ryu comes to mind. Also I am curious to see the luigi vs. cloud matchup).

Luigi still has very good frame data (along with the other mario bros) and better power overall in his moveset, so he can definitely still beat many of the characters in the roster. His CQC is definitely not something to disrespect, especially since he also has jab-cancels. However, he is no longer solo-viable at the higher levels of play (luigi players got rather low placings at nationals, even before the nerf), which I think will become more apparent over time. Of course, Con Con and boss still puts in work, but I think their (luigi's) mixup game will be much less effective over time as people learn to properly deal with tornado (just hold shield and don't drop it, then punish accordingly), jab mixups (mash jump), and other luigi tricks. Also luigi will possibly drop down even lower in the tier list as people optimize their offstage gameplay against luigi and properly punish luigi players for recovering, and stop allowing luigi players to get back on-stage for free.

I would like to hear other luigi mains' opinions on luigi's position in the game, also.

 

[Ffamran]

It depends. Similar style moves should have similar landing lags. The game does this for the most part, but many moves are still out of place. Such a sweeping change of reducing all landing lag could have unforeseen consequences, but having a character with 17+ frames of landing lag everywhere isn't good, either.

Yeah, that's a major problem.

Spoiler: Uairs, Uairs everywhere!

Most flip Uairs are around frame 12 to 15 range for landing lag, but some aren't. Captain Falcon and ZSS notably have only 9 frames and while they don't have before auto-cancel windows, their after windows were meant for hopped use. The ones in the 12 range include Kirby, Luigi, and Mario with Mewtwo being right next since his incurs 13 frames. All of them have Uairs with auto-cancel windows meant for hopped use as with other flip Uairs. Following with 14 frames are Dr. Mario, Lucina, and Marth, at 15 with Falco and Wii Fit Trainer - weirdest flip Uair and might be one that shouldn't be counted -, and at 16 with Pac-Man, Pikachu, and Roy. Even at 16, it seems reasonable if you start with 12 and not 9... Here's where it gets much worse. Robin's clocks at 18 frames which you could say, sure, it's the Levin Sword for Robin which has much more range than the other flip Uairs outside of Mewtwo? and more power. For Meta Knight? That's kind of okay... except you have Uairs that clock at 9 frames of landing lag, can also be used from a hop, and can be set up or setup into things like Captain Falcon's falling Uair to Fair or ZSS's infamous Uair to Boost Kick and less infamous, but powerful Uair to Bair. After that, Ganondorf clocks at 19 frames... We get it; he's a juggernaut and he needs high landing lag, but the sad part is his landing lag is low for a juggernaut compared to some other famous villain... Bowser. Following and unchanged from Brawl, Diddy's Uair has 21 frames of landing lag. It auto-cancels only after 27 - pre-1.0.8, it auto-canceled after 15 - frames which is fine since Diddy's going to use it mostly in the air and sometimes from a hop, but 21? Really? Finally, we have Pikachu's Uair clocking at 24 frames of landing lag. One word: why? Pikachu's Uair is basically a Mario Uair with a late hit. It can combo and sets up just like Mario's. That's it. It doesn't kill, it doesn't do a lot of damage - it's actually weaker than Mario's by 2% to 3% -, it doesn't have massive range or even significantly more range than Mario's, and it doesn't confirm into anything insane like Thunder. So, the extremes are 9 and 21 frames of landing lag. So, why? Really, why? Averaged, it would be 14.9 frames of landing lag. Averages don't really do much when even without the extremes, the average clocks at 14 frames.

The problem might be that the majority of characters have high, relative to this type of move, landing lag. Then there's another issue: what type of move is this? I say flip Uair because of the animation. Thing is, as with all moves despite looking similar, some of them like Robin's, is more for killing and as noted, WFT's Uair doesn't involve a flip. So, why's WFT's there? It juggles or can juggle like the rest of them. If it's just juggling, some characters should be added like Meta Knight and Sonic. If it's pure combos using Uair, then lots of characters are getting dropped including ones that can combo them, but at lower percents like Dr. Mario, Falco, and Luigi. At the same time, should there be that sort of extreme? Yes, Meta Knight is more of an air fighter, but 21's still crazy and while we don't want Ganondorf and Robin to be able to have more freedom with their Uairs, maybe they should only clock at 16 frames while the rest drop closer to the Capt. and ZSS's. Balancing is difficult and this would be a mess to "re-balance", but sometimes, I feel like there shouldn't be this sort of extreme, especially if those moves don't really seem to show much reasons for having that high of a landing lag like Pikachu's.

Spoiler: Spin to lose, Zelda... Spin to lose..

Two moves come to mind when similar moves are mentioned, but they're different for the wrong reasons: Falco and Zelda's Nair. At launch, they were still different for the wrong reasons: Falco's was twice as fast on startup and did 1% more or 3% more because it had no front or back hitbox differences, but could not guarantee a full connection unlike Zelda's Nair. Post-1.0.8, Falco's Nair pretty much trumps Zelda's Nair frame data-wise. It's faster on startup, it does 11% regardless of how you hit, it has lower landing lag, and it guarantees a connection because of the auto-link angles. Oh, and the patch increased its hitbox sizes - noticeable with its last hit which is slightly disjointed. The pros to Zelda's Nair? Hits more rhythmical versus Falco's off-beat meaning there are no changes between a the loop hits gaps, better knockback growth on the last hit, and slightly better auto-cancel windows, but with a combination of Zelda's physics, this lets her hop her Nair while Falco can't. Then again, Falco can't use any aerials, but Uair and Bair from a hop since all of them go above his 32 frame air time from a hop. Also, funny enough, they have the same air time, 62 frames, with their jumps. Anyway... at this point, we kind of wonder why they didn't change Zelda's Nair to match Falco's. The fact it even had 22 frames of landing lag pre-1.0.8 is also appalling. Sure, Zelda can use her Nair from a hop, but if she screws up... Really? Before, Zelda's landing lag never dipped below 21 frames and that was on Dair, a move she can use from a hop. Now? no moves dip below frame 18 and guess what move? Dair. Nair, while a good move, is practically screaming, "READ ME!", when that's her only move she can use from a hop. Aerial approaches aren't as potent in this game, but seriously, 1 aerial option and it even has bad landing lag? The hell is she going to do with Nair? Confirm it into a fully charged Phantom Slash? Oh, wait, that still won't work since it'll just move them, fail to connect the slash, and she'll stand there looking like a moron.

Both their Nairs are generally used in the air usually from a setup or just to meet someone air-to-air. The problem is pretty much landing data and perhaps even startup data. Maybe Zelda should have a frame 3 Nair? She'd love to have another combo interrupter and a faster move that can be used out of shield. Zelda with a frame 3 Nair wouldn't be game-breaking nor would it drastically improve her. It'd just be something nice for her to have. Anyway, what should happen is Zelda's Nair should have 15 or maybe even 12 frames of landing lag instead of 19. Not just for bringing them closer when they don't seem to do anything different and the gap's pretty noticeable, especially since they and Olimar are the only twirl, multi-hit Nair users, but also because really, an aerial like that shouldn't have 19 frames when she doesn't have any aerials that dip below 18 frames of landing lag. If I add Olimar to the mix, he can also use his from a hop, but it's frame 7, does 8%, and has 15 frames of landing lag. If I add Ness and Peach, this is just going to go on and on... Rundown is that Ness's incurs 18 frames of landing lag, but he can auto-cancel it before 5 and after 26, it does 11% clean from frames 5-12, 8 active frames, and 7% late for frames 13-15, 3 active frames. Peach's is also frame 5, does 13% from frames 5-8, 4 frames, 6% or 5% from frames 9-19, 11 frames, has 11 landing frames, and auto-cancels before 5 and after 36. Both of them can use them from a hop, but they're usually also going to use them in the air. Ness's high landing lag sort of makes sense because of the high active frames for the clean hit while Peach doesn't really care when she can float, so the low landing lag is just a bonus. That pretty much asks the question for why Zelda's has that kind of landing lag. None of these twirl Nairs have the kind of hitbox to use for approaches and even if they were strictly for high altitude use, they shouldn't have that kind of landing lag for when you mess up and use them too close. Falco's more likely to bait with Bair and empty hop mixups, Ness would rather use Fair or Bair for approaches, Peach is more likely to use Dair to pressure shields and Nair as backup alongside her Vegetables, and Zelda... Oh, right... She doesn't have anything, so she has to use Nair since Fair and Bair are too risky and Uair and Dair are vertical hitboxes.

That would not be a good idea for such a strong move, imo. Even if the autocancel is good, there is still a window frame advantage on shield and hit for the autocancel timing.

While typing, I had a thought in the back of my head over the implications of Fox having only 4 frames of landing lag... Yes, Ffamran, great idea suggesting that his auto-cancel windows be removed completely and leaving only 4 frames of landing lag... Forgot about the window and didn't think far enough, however, it might not "bad" for Falco, Fox, Mario, etc. to have say, 9 frames of landing lag, but no auto-cancel windows. That being said, it would be a nightmare to figure all of that out.

All of them seem to have high landing lag. Pikachu's 15 frames made sense when electrical attacks had extra frames of shield hitlag. He suffered just as much of a disadvantage on shield as the others back then. Why they're so high I can only guess, but they are difficult to powershield and find the timing to release shield. They are also likely to have a hitbox right as they land.

Sonic and Pikachu's fairs are used in entirely different situations. If Sonic had something like Pikachu's fair, he'd be able to deal tons of damage out of a spindash punish and with Sonic's superior air speed, extend it further than Pikachu ever could.

All the fairs you listed are still pretty good with their intended uses. ~20 wouldn't be so bad for those moves.

Yeah, they're not "meant" to be used from a hop since they're more purely air moves rather than say, Fox's Bair which can be used up in the air or closer to the ground, but because they're similar moves it's kind of strange how they haven't upped Pikachu's landing lag to ~20 or reduced the others to ~15 like his. They altered the shield stun interaction; they know the consequences... So, why? It should have been changed in this patch 1.1.3, the succeeding game balance patch after the shield stun change patch, 1.1.1.

Spoiler: The problem with landing hits

As for shielding... It is difficult to shield a multi-hit, especially if you're not familiar with the character's moves, but they shouldn't really be used on the ground, so shielding them isn't common, except when people do shield them... But don't multi-hits lock you into shield stun now? Anyway, only Falco's Fair has a landing hit and I have no clue why it has one. The fact it's frame 1 does help nor does the fact it's disjointed. If Falco's Fair didn't have a landing hit, people wouldn't be getting hit from dropping their shield too early, but they would also have to severely lower the landing lag which they did. Brawl's was even worse at 33 frames of landing lag and Fair in that game... Yeah...

Part of me feels like landing hits are contributing to issues with multi-hits and balancing them. The weird thing is they know about landing hits and it's not because people are dropping shields too early. The problem is that many landing hits do not make any sense and people expect those moves to end once you land or when it just ends, so the people are getting the notion those moves are just hard to shield when they're not because landing hits are sort of like cheap shots. Dr. Mario's Dair, Falco's Fair, Fox's Dair, Kirby's Dair, and Pikachu's Bair and Dair landing hits all don't make sense. What are they even doing that would warrant a landing hitbox? Even Mario's Dair landing hit seems weird when Doctor Tornado and Luigi Cyclone don't which makes sense since they're Specials and not aerials. And in most cases, they're frame 1 landing hits. If Mario wound up for a last hit that came out at frame 3, then it wouldn't be insane. If Falco's Fair had him flop up like Sonic's, so it looks like he's spinning one last time, then sure, it would make sense since he's spinning, his beak is going to hit, and the landing animation looks like he's doing one last hit to fluidly get up from landing. That would be like what? Frame 4 to make it not crazy? Oh, but then Sonic's Fair would need a landing hit since that's what he does.

For those landing hits, I would say remove almost all of them while ones that look like there's a hit like Mario's should have a startup change. Falco's Fair landing hit did 2%? at launch and went up to 5% in 1.0.4 before going down to 3% in 1.0.8. Looking back, they were definitely using the 5% to cover the 32 frames of landing lag. Why? I don't freaking know. Was it a good move before? Yeah, compared to Brawl it definitely was, but it was sort of weird like why was it frame 12 and only did 8% total, why did it have 32 frames of landing lag, and why the 5% landing hit? Well, they fixed it in 1.0.8 so it wasn't stupid, but the landing hit really needs to go. Oh, but Falco's going to be defenseless! Lower the landing lag to 21 or something and while you're at it, lower Sonic's to 23 and boost Pikachu's to 20 at the very least. Oh, and y'know whose move should have a landing hit? Ganondorf's Fair. Totally canonical since he had a shockwave in Ocarina of Time.

True. Randomly bad moves don't make much sense. Out of place numbers on moves' stats don't make much sense either.

Reading this just screams Roy Dair... Why the 28 frames of landing lag? Meanwhile, Ike suffers 23. Moves like Ganondorf's Utilt, Kirby's Hammer Flip, Triple D's Jet Hammer, and more at least have the damage to make them really situational, but really rewarding moves. Then again, Roy has one randomly bad move while Zelda's chock full of them. Gee, guys, don't you think it's a bad idea for her to have 3 sweet-spot aerials? Nah, Fred, it's fine; she'll be the princess Hyrule deserves. *proceeds to make it so Din's Fire leaves her in helpless mode*

 

[Yonder]

There was a german national today.
http://challonge.com/scmsingles

1. Luigi_player
2. cyve
3. Sodrek :4Fox: :4Cloud:
4. Eddy
5. Long0uw , vyQ
7. cyfersquad , Light

about 110 entrants.

Streamarchive to Top8 http://www.twitch.tv/circlelevels/v/34495557?t=2h49m30s

Wow, a solo Luigi won with Sheiks present? (And Rob, Greninja, Cloud). Must watch this guy. I pretty much gave up hope of a Luigi going past top 8 post patch but this is refreshing. I still don't know how he fights Sheik.

 

[SaltyKracka]

I always found it hilarious what Sakurai and co. did when they split up Zelda and Shiek.

"Oh, one portion of this duo has historically been competitively strong and viable sans a special move? Well, let's just give her an incredibly safe recovery/kill move to even things out!"

"Eh? The other one? There's another one? So there is....Meh, a stationary charge move with tons of endlag will do fine. She must not need much in the way of help anyways, or we'd hear the screaming from both sides of the Pacific. It'll be fine."

 

[Ffamran]

Yeah I agree completely. Actually Nintendo should have done this with every character from the start. It is commonly known that many attack animations don't properly match hitboxes of the attacks in general, which is a unique Smash 4 problem that was not a significant issue in past games. One character that suffered big time from this was meta knight, as mentioned before. Right now I think one of the best way to "buff" low tier characters is to properly fix their hitbox placements on certain attacks that either a) don't match the animation well, b) don't have proper autolink angles, making the move easy to fall out of (depending character attributes) or 3) fixing the unbalance between sourspot and sweetspot (in terms of both power and hitbox placement). A character that suffers pretty hard from hitbox issues is samus. Samus actually has a pretty good boxing and mid-range zoning game with good combo ability and possibly the best shield-break setups from the ledge, as mentioned before in this thread. However daddy sakurai has yet to properly fix the autolink angles on both fair and up smash, which makes it pretty easy to fall out of at low-mid percents. Since fair is one of samus's main combo tool, and up smash isone of samus's OOS option, these issues are rather significant for the character.

First off, I blame all of the hitbox issues on attack trails. They're flashy and they look amazing, but they're overzealous. In some cases, it can't be helped like Marth's sword will drift back and in games with swords, trails will show even if they're not for attacks like they're there for sheathing, flourishes, etc. Also, for Marth, it's that and previous design choices which for whatever reason, must remain. If Marth's Uair, for example, ended more abruptly, then people might not complain because of the animation, but they would complain about the hitbox still being short, especially compared to Roy's.

Second, Samus's Fair has auto-link angles on all but the first and last hit. Don't really know why it would have people fall out since there are moves with auto-link angles starting after the first hit and connecting fine and some moves that don't have auto-link angles, but connect fine like Mewtwo's Nair, Pikachu's Fair, the Pits' Uair, and Sonic's Fair. That being said, it might be safer to have auto-link angles on a multi-hit. As for Up Smash, I covered it with that it either needs complete auto-link angles, or have all the loop hits moving the target back since she arcs from front to back with it. Either way, Samus's multi-hits have really weird angles.

In addition to hitbox issues, nintendo should look to fixing certain problems related to special moves with specific characters. For example Dr. Mario has issues with his down-b: usually, mashing down-b immediately after double jumping in the air makes it go very far vertically and horizontally. However, sometimes the full possible height from the DJ>down-b mash cannot be gained, and Dr. mario just falls down, even while mashing b. As far as I know, this issue is random, and boss had mentioned this issue several times. The down-b issue is pretty terrible for Dr. Mario since it makes his already-abysmal recovery even worse, at completely random times during the match.

Falco's Fire Bird says hi.

I think Sakurai/Nintendo should look toward investing a good amount of time just going over character moveset and testing how their attacks/specials interact with different characters or how the attacks/specials work in general, because right now there are a lot of characters that just need some hot fixes with their moveset, not actual buffs, to make the character better (often times significantly).

The sad part is that they probably do, but here's the problem: how many characters are in Smash 4? Initially, there were 51 characters in Smash 4. With DLC, that ups it to 58. That's an insane amount of work to do. From previous games, it's a miracle they didn't screw everything up when Melee had 26 and Brawl had 39. Granted, Melee was completed under a short amount of time while Smash 4 had maybe even 5 years of development. Brawl's where it was really noticeable; there were messes of characters and other game design choices everywhere. The fact they did it in-house and referenced off of what other fighting game companies did while making a fighting game that interacts very much differently than traditional 2D and even "traditional" 3D fighting games definitely showed. Namco Bandai was able to help for Smash 4, but even they have trouble since nobody makes this kind of game not even Santa Monica Studios with Playstation All-Stars Battle Royale. It's a helluva different kind of beast to tackle.

Anyway, the other thing is they have templates and some references are easy to use as they're staples of fighting games. Mario's Super Jump Punch? A Shoryuken, basically; it's invincible on startup and its rising nature makes it an anti-air like Shoryuken. Others are more noticeable like Bayonetta and Ryu are just based on their games which is totally fine since their games are fighting games or based on them; Bayonetta, like DMC, was developed from (former) Capcom employees and Capcom's known for Street Fighter, so... Others are bit more difficult to see, but not really. Fox can be considered as being the Chun-Li of Smash because of his focus on kicks. That being said, he doesn't exactly play like Chun-Li, but has moves like her - notable one is his rapid jab. At the same time, he also has Guile's Flash Kick, a fast anti-air which for Fox, is a fast vertical kill and, albeit risky because of the recovery in this game, anti-air move.

The weird thing is when they are using a template, but kind of don't go through with it.

Spoiler: Grasping at straws; Falco and Charlie Nash

For me, that's Falco and him being a bit like Charlie Nash. I don't even know why they decided to make Falco more like Nash, but then stop. Melee Falco took 64 Fox's Blaster and like Nash, started off as a "clone" of Fox. They fought differently, but worked with similar ideas like both their Up Smashes could be used for anti-airs. It wasn't until Smash 4 where they said, with their Up Smashes, who was who: Fox was Guile with his single-hit, back-flip Up Smash and Falco was Nash with his 2-hit, turnaround, front-flip Up Smash. I still don't know much about Street Fighter, but looking into it and watching some stuff on Nash, I felt like Falco was based on Nash, but wondered why they didn't go through with it. They even removed some things like you could say their dash attacks are similar to Knee Bazooka, but they gutted Falco's in Smash 4 which is weird when he's the slower-moving character and by a significant amount too. Both can zone, but Fox's lack of hit stun on Blaster necessitates that he can fire continually and that he has low startup on his Blaster. Oh, and his higher ground speed. For Falco? Well, they messed up giving him a Blaster that can fire continually and they messed up even further by lower the startup, increasing the fire rate, and increasing its range in Brawl. With the 23 frames of startup and 35 recovery frames in Melee, it would have fit perfectly in Smash 4 after losing its ability to fire continually as a Sonic Boom, a high startup, but low recovery projectile. Perhaps it should have 30 or even 20 frames of recovery and the aerial version should be frame 16 on startup instead of Melee's 13 if they mess with it so the high startup and low recovery fit its range, travel speed, and damage. This move actually sort of exists as Impact Blaster which is one of Fox's custom moves or as Greninja's Water Shuriken and funny enough, Zelda's Din's Fire. Y'know, if Falco fired a "slow Hadouken" with maybe less range and obviously a smaller hitbox, the high startup would tell people what's up even though he could move quickly out of it. It wouldn't be like in Brawl which was terrible or even in Smash 4 where it's still annoying, but pathetic as well. The problem is that this might make it completely useless in FFA and maybe even in 2v2 and up.

The rest of the Falco-Nash things ends up being that Falco's Reflector is a bit similar to Nash's Bullet Clear where they mess with projectiles, Falco's reflects while Nash's absorbs, and they're well-ranged pokes, but are risky if they whiff or hit on-shield. In Falco's case, it does little shield stun and has a high recovery while Nash's can't cancel into anything and it also has noticeable recovery? Then there's the deal where Falco doesn't seem to fight like other Smash characters and fights a bit more like Ryu, more like a Street Fighter character, who pokes and messes around in close-combat. Problem with that is he can't really control the stage since Blaster's not a good projectile at all unlike Ryu who can zone with his Hadouken and Shakunetsu and some issues with his moves like jab, dash attack's doubled startup hurting his punish game out of shield or out of a dash which Fox is capable of and Falco was capable of in Melee and Brawl, the lack of any base knockback on Ftilt, and his slow, frame 8 standing grab makes his close-range game spotty at times.

 

[R3D3MON]

For me, that's Falco and him being a bit like Charlie Nash. I don't even know why they decided to make Falco more like Nash, but then stop. Melee Falco took 64 Fox's Blaster and like Nash, started off as a "clone" of Fox. They fought differently, but worked with similar ideas like both their Up Smashes could be used for anti-airs. It wasn't until Smash 4 where they said, with their Up Smashes, who was who: Fox was Guile with his single-hit, back-flip Up Smash and Falco was Nash with his 2-hit, turnaround, front-flip Up Smash. I still don't know much about Street Fighter, but looking into it and watching some stuff on Nash, I felt like Falco was based on Nash, but wondered why they didn't go through with it. They even removed some things like you could say their dash attacks are similar to Knee Bazooka, but they gutted Falco's in Smash 4 which is weird when he's the slower-moving character and by a significant amount too. Both can zone, but Fox's lack of hit stun on Blaster necessitates that he can fire continually and that he has low startup on his Blaster. Oh, and his higher ground speed. For Falco? Well, they messed up giving him a Blaster that can fire continually and they messed up even further by lower the startup, increasing the fire rate, and increasing its range in Brawl. With the 23 frames of startup and 35 recovery frames in Melee, it would have fit perfectly in Smash 4 after losing its ability to fire continually as a Sonic Boom, a high startup, but low recovery projectile. Perhaps it should have 30 or even 20 frames of recovery and the aerial version should be frame 16 on startup instead of Melee's 13 if they mess with it so the high startup and low recovery fit its range, travel speed, and damage. This move actually sort of exists as Impact Blaster which is one of Fox's custom moves or as Greninja's Water Shuriken and funny enough, Zelda's Din's Fire. Y'know, if Falco fired a "slow Hadouken" with maybe less range and obviously a smaller hitbox, the high startup would tell people what's up even though he could move quickly out of it. It wouldn't be like in Brawl which was terrible or even in Smash 4 where it's still annoying, but pathetic as well. The problem is that this might make it completely useless in FFA and maybe even in 2v2 and up.

The rest of the Falco-Nash things ends up being that Falco's Reflector is a bit similar to Nash's Bullet Clear where they mess with projectiles, Falco's reflects while Nash's absorbs, and they're well-ranged pokes, but are risky if they whiff or hit on-shield. In Falco's case, it does little shield stun and has a high recovery while Nash's can't cancel into anything and it also has noticeable recovery? Then there's the deal where Falco doesn't seem to fight like other Smash characters and fights a bit more like Ryu, more like a Street Fighter character, who pokes and messes around in close-combat. Problem with that is he can't really control the stage since Blaster's not a good projectile at all unlike Ryu who can zone with his Hadouken and Shakunetsu and some issues with his moves like jab, dash attack's doubled startup hurting his punish game out of shield or out of a dash which Fox is capable of and Falco was capable of in Melee and Brawl, the lack of any base knockback on Ftilt, and his slow, frame 8 standing grab makes his close-range game spotty at times.[/SPOILER]

Maybe because they thought falco would still be too powerful in Smash 4, even after receiving the changes? IDK I think it has something to do with nintendo's trend of overdoing certain changes to characters, such as nerfs (although they have been pretty sensible about buffs, IMO). For example, I think nintendo went overboard with nerfs on diddy's uair and luigi's d-throw, which all needed nerfs, but not to the extent that nintendo gave (IMO). It might just be because nintendo has a general fear of their changes to characters being too good for the character, which might be why they won't give really drastic buffs to certain characters and instead prefer nerfing, and sometimes overdoing the nerfs, on characters they deem too good.

 

[Radical Larry]

So I found out myself that there's actually another guaranteed combo for Bowser at pretty much any damage on any opponent, and the best thing is, it racks up some serious damage quick and is, for the most part, braindead to use. Instead of trying to use U-Smash for damage or U-Tilt for any quick attack, instead, just use U-Throw > U-Spec (Aerial). For those of whom who don't know, Bowser's Aerial Whirling Fortress is Frame 6 and covers a massive portion with hitboxes, the first of which allowing him to combo into the others. The combo sends opponents, mainly around zero to even higher damages, into a state of heavily inflicted damage, and it comes out so fast that no opponent can merely recover quick enough to counter (except maybe Pac-Man).

It's very reliable and it saves U-Air for the kills.

...please tell me someone discovered this and nobody talks about it.
Because this is the most braindead, damaging combo I've ever seen, and it's just two attacks with the potential to do more damage than Yoshi's D-Air. This is the fastest combo to up to 42% damage that I can fathom can happen, and that's saying a lot when you have characters who can combo fast like Sheik and Ryu. I mean, come on, his U-Throw has made him into a damage racking and opponent-killing machine now.

Seriously, go try that combo out and see what you can do with it. Sure, it is only a two-attack combo, but the damage output is insane and faster than any opponent can dish out with any other intricate combo. It's brain dead, guaranteed and fast.

I just had to bring this up to light.

 

[Vipermoon]

So I found out myself that there's actually another guaranteed combo for Bowser at pretty much any damage on any opponent, and the best thing is, it racks up some serious damage quick and is, for the most part, braindead to use. Instead of trying to use U-Smash for damage or U-Tilt for any quick attack, instead, just use U-Throw > U-Spec (Aerial). For those of whom who don't know, Bowser's Aerial Whirling Fortress is Frame 6 and covers a massive portion with hitboxes, the first of which allowing him to combo into the others. The combo sends opponents, mainly around zero to even higher damages, into a state of heavily inflicted damage, and it comes out so fast that no opponent can merely recover quick enough to counter (except maybe Pac-Man).

It's very reliable and it saves U-Air for the kills.

...please tell me someone discovered this and nobody talks about it.
Because this is the most braindead, damaging combo I've ever seen, and it's just two attacks with the potential to do more damage than Yoshi's D-Air. This is the fastest combo to up to 42% damage that I can fathom can happen, and that's saying a lot when you have characters who can combo fast like Sheik and Ryu. I mean, come on, his U-Throw has made him into a damage racking and opponent-killing machine now.

Seriously, go try that combo out and see what you can do with it. Sure, it is only a two-attack combo, but the damage output is insane and faster than any opponent can dish out with any other intricate combo. It's brain dead, guaranteed and fast.

I just had to bring this up to light.

Yeah I looked at this when the patch dropped. It's really good and IIRC it doesn't work too well at very low percents due to how much time it takes for Bowser to get into the air. Idk why Bowser mains don't do it (I wonder the same with DK mains).

Uthrow to full hop Nair is really good at mid percents. Another thing Bowsers need to use.

 

[Radical Larry]

Yeah I looked at this when the patch dropped. It's really good and IIRC it doesn't work too well at very low percents due to how much time it takes for Bowser to get into the air. Idk why Bowser mains don't do it (I wonder the same with DK mains).

Uthrow to full hop Nair is really good at mid percents. Another thing Bowsers need to use.

On some characters it doesn't work too well at lower damages, but when the move connects (you have to be pretty fast at lower damages), the first hit specifically, your opponent won't do so well. Now granted, Bowser's landing lag is a little bad when using U-Spec, but he can still position himself at an advantageous position and reap the low-risk, high-reward combo that is that combo.

It's basically Bowser's greatest advantage to have; a combo that can also position him away from the opponent and to safety.

And I agree, U-Throw to N-Air should be used frequently, but it's overshadowed by other ones such as his all-up-attack combos. I've also done some testing with his other aerials, and at mid-damage, his F-Air can work, and somehow I managed to true combo into D-Air. U-Throw > D-Spec is also a potent damage racker with good timing and positioning.

I think Bowser can combo into nearly everything of his with some success at some damages with U-Throw, so this thing could potentially raise him up more tiers than expected or anticipated. It may take time and that one good player, but Bowser has a lot of potential that's waiting to become kinetic.

 

[outfoxd]

On some characters it doesn't work too well at lower damages, but when the move connects (you have to be pretty fast at lower damages), the first hit specifically, your opponent won't do so well. Now granted, Bowser's landing lag is a little bad when using U-Spec, but he can still position himself at an advantageous position and reap the low-risk, high-reward combo that is that combo.

It's basically Bowser's greatest advantage to have; a combo that can also position him away from the opponent and to safety.

And I agree, U-Throw to N-Air should be used frequently, but it's overshadowed by other ones such as his all-up-attack combos. I've also done some testing with his other aerials, and at mid-damage, his F-Air can work, and somehow I managed to true combo into D-Air. U-Throw > D-Spec is also a potent damage racker with good timing and positioning.

I think Bowser can combo into nearly everything of his with some success at some damages with U-Throw, so this thing could potentially raise him up more tiers than expected or anticipated. It may take time and that one good player, but Bowser has a lot of potential that's waiting to become kinetic.

If i start seeing consistent bowsers in top 8 i will be tickled. Fatboys need their due

 

[Wintermelon43]

I just realized, top 3 was all Shieks at the Socal tournament.

Doesn't sound good for the future of this game.

Edit:Also, another thing. Why are people saying Fox vs. Sheik is even? Larry Lurr got wrecked by shieks that tournaments. I honestly think it's 40:60 in Shiek's favor

 

[Emblem Lord]

Watching Mr.E's Marth vs. Venom's Ryu, it was clear that Marth has the chops to keep up in that matchup. However, Marth would make a mistake, eat a Focus Attack into Shoryuken, and seemed unable to recover from the deficit.

I don't know if it's Mr. E having trouble coming from behind, Marth being a character that has problems doing so (outside of landing solid tipper f-smashes), or a combination of the two.

In general, watching Marth is watching this glimmer of hope, and then having it slowly fade away as he gets overwhelmed by *stuff*.

Marth wins neutral, buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut

you said it. He has trouble landing those kills and Ryu gets angrier and angrier.

 

[meleebrawler]

If nothing else, this fits my worldview that people underrate post-nerf Diddy and Luigi, and possibly always will.

I totally buy Samus suffering hard against MK and Pikachu, but who does she do best against among the most relevant characters beyond Luigi?

Probably Ness, despite his absorber and reflector, which can be baited with homing missiles (seriously they may be bad as regular projectiles but they work great for baiting airdodges and the like from a distance. Pretty much the main reason Charge Shot doesn't auto-lose to reflectors). Otherwise the high tiers that don't give her significant issues are Lucario, Ike, and Peach. I'd argue that she does fine vs. Yoshi and Ryu as well.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

This had happened to me. But I play FG 3DS so maybe you guys don't experience it.

I have ever get like 7 Japanese people leaving me in a row. I kid you not.

But ah well. I suppose my English name caused them to mistook me for living somewhere else. My bad on calling them racist. Was rather salty remembering stuffs because I had to wait minutes for people to actually fight me and even then, the fight lagged.

Now I feel very guilty.

Actually, they most likely ditched you because they don't want lag as Japan is most likely far away from your country.
Also, I have a question. I'm no expert, but I hear Cloud's good against high tiers but struggles against low tier characters. Does anyone else think that's a huge metagame changer? Apologies in advance if this counts as red topic, very new in this

 

[UberMadman]

Also, I have a question. I'm no expert, but I hear Cloud's good against high tiers but struggles against low tier characters. Does anyone else think that's a huge metagame changer? Apologies in advance if this counts as red topic, very new in this

What low tiers does he struggle with though? From what I can tell so far from playing with and against Cloud, his matchup spread feels pretty consistent across the board, similar to the Pits, but with a few more notable advantageous ones.

Anyway, to answer your question, obviously any bad matchups hold a character back, but matchups against better and more common characters are weighted much more heavily than matchups against characters you are not likely to see in tournament. A good example of this is the most recent Melee tier list, which put Marth at 3rd most viable character and Sheik at 4th. Both characters have good matchups spreads with pretty much the entire cast, but Sheik is known to absolutely DESTROY mid to low tiers, even moreso than Marth. However, Marth has a significantly better matchup against Fox and Falco, and ultimately that is why the community decided to place him higher on the tier lists. Sheik always places high in tournies, but when Sheik players come across a really good Fox/Falco they often falter, whereas Marth has been known to take regionals and occasionally nationals over the spacies. So if Cloud were to have a couple bad matchups against mid to low tiers but good matchups against high tiers, that would ultimately most likely make him high tier himself. It would take a LOT of bad matchups among mid tiers to counteract a good Sheik matchup, (which I'm not necessarily saying Cloud has, but... you know what I mean.)

 

[Wintropy]

Also, I have a question. I'm no expert, but I hear Cloud's good against high tiers but struggles against low tier characters. Does anyone else think that's a huge metagame changer? Apologies in advance if this counts as red topic, very new in this

If it's true (not really qualified to say if it is or isn't, but I'm gonna entertain the hypothetical), it depends on which high-tiers he beats, which low-tiers he loses to and by how much.

If, say, he beat ZSS and Sheik, but struggled with Zelda and Duck Hunt, he'd be a character with an exceptionally strong niche that also gets countered by weaker characters. Having anybody that can comfortably beat the top characters in the game is a big deal in the meta, but if they can't handle the low-tiers, they probably won't get much mileage beyond that.

Somebody brought this up before Cloud was released, wondering how it would affect Cloud if he was a counter to Sheik but lost to every other character (just go with it, it's a thought experiment). The response was that everybody would pocket Cloud for the Sheik matchup, and then everybody (especially Sheik players) would use another character to beat him in turn. It would impede Sheik's viability to an extent and mean Cloud had a niche in the meta, but otherwise he'd be totally unviable and Sheik would continue to dominate the meta. It'd make a difference, but not a very big one.

But yeah, who do you think / did you hear he loses to? First time I've heard this, I'm intrigued.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

If it's true (not really qualified to say if it is or isn't, but I'm gonna entertain the hypothetical), it depends on which high-tiers he beats, which low-tiers he loses to and by how much.

If, say, he beat ZSS and Sheik, but struggled with Zelda and Duck Hunt, he'd be a character with an exceptionally strong niche that also gets countered by weaker characters. Having anybody that can comfortably beat the top characters in the game is a big deal in the meta, but if they can't handle the low-tiers, they probably won't get much mileage beyond that.

Somebody brought this up before Cloud was released, wondering how it would affect Cloud if he was a counter to Sheik but lost to every other character (just go with it, it's a thought experiment). The response was that everybody would pocket Cloud for the Sheik matchup, and then everybody (especially Sheik players) would use another character to beat him in turn. It would impede Sheik's viability to an extent and mean Cloud had a niche in the meta, but otherwise he'd be totally unviable and Sheik would continue to dominate the meta. It'd make a difference, but not a very big one.

But yeah, who do you think / did you hear he loses to? First time I've heard this, I'm intrigued.

I literally only heard 'Cloud does well against high tiers but poor against low tiers', I was moreso asking for what you professionals thought

 

[Emblem Lord]

Cloud legit smokes low tiers. What low tiers beat him?

Bowser is prolly solid mid now. Not low tier. Just putting that out there before someone names him.

 

[Spinosaurus]

I literally only heard 'Cloud does well against high tiers but poor against low tiers', I was moreso asking for what you professionals thought

Where did you hear this though? First time I heard of it and it's definitely not true.

Cloud kinda destroys the weaker characters actually.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Speaking of low tiers going to mid, is it safe to say the same applies to Kirby and Mewtwo? Mewtwo got more power and speed, something that he desperately needed if he wanted to be a glass cannon, and Kirby always felt like 'a jack of all trades, but below average' as he could combo decently and stuff

Where did you hear this though? First time I heard of it and it's definitely not true.

Cloud kinda destroys the weaker characters actually.

A friend of mine who spends his free time looking at competitive Smash. I know for a fact he's usually full of **** so I decided to ask you guys

 

[Wintermelon43]

Speaking of low tiers going to mid, is it safe to say the same applies to Kirby and Mewtwo? Mewtwo got more power and speed, something that he desperately needed if he wanted to be a glass cannon, and Kirby always felt like 'a jack of all trades, but below average' as he could combo decently and stuff

A friend of mine who spends his free time looking at competitive Smash. I know for a fact he's usually full of **** so I decided to ask you guys

Kirby was already in mid tier so not really correct, although he did improve. Mewtwo is correct though

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Edit:Also, another thing. Why are people saying Fox vs. Sheik is even?

People say that? o_0

 

[Baby_Sneak]

It probably has to be a character with a strong punish game.

 

[Wintropy]

Come to think of it, I don't think Pit is beaten by any low or mid-tiers either. I can't think of a single matchup he loses below high-tier.

Going even or better with everyone except a few high and top-tiers is a massive boon in a meta with over 50 characters. Bless Palutena!

/platitude

Speaking of low tiers going to mid, is it safe to say the same applies to Kirby and Mewtwo? Mewtwo got more power and speed, something that he desperately needed if he wanted to be a glass cannon, and Kirby always felt like 'a jack of all trades, but below average' as he could combo decently and stuff.

Probably. Japan thinks Mewtwo's been mid-tier for a while now, but the recent buffs have done him a world of good, and Kirby seems better off too.

But it still comes down to matchups and stuff, and unfortunately, their spreads aren't really strong enough to keep them relevant. They still get beaten by the most relevant characters in the game, impeding their overall viability. They're just a bit better equipped to deal with these matchups now.

I have to be cynical and wonder what the big difference between low and mid-tier is, except that you're now a bit closer to the viability line. If you can't cross that line, does it matter that much what tier you're in?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

It probably has to be a character with a strong punish game.

So characters like Ganondorf. I hear Ike and MK also are decent punishers, but I'm not too sure how these characters would do. As I'm usually super casual, I'd also like a possible beginners guide to Sm4sh if possible

 

[Wintropy]

So characters like Ganondorf. I hear Ike and MK also are decent punishers, but I'm not too sure how these characters would do. As I'm usually super casual, I'd also like a possible beginners guide to Sm4sh if possible

Ganondorf has a strong punish game but gets bodied in most other respects. He has to work hard to win neutral and most of his viable options have the "you have to hit them first" disclaimer tethered to them. He's great if he can connect, but you can't rely on hard reads to carry you every time. Cloud is faster, safer, has disjoints out his ears and has at least four trump cards with Limit Break, he should run rings around him (no hate Ganon mains, you know I love you).

Most are in agreement that ZSS and MK have the best punish games in the roster. Both just need to win neutral once to potentially end your stock (factoring in rage, DI and all those other nice things, you're still going to take a ton of damage and have a higher chance of being bodied than you do with other characters).