Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Y2Kay]

Knowing proper Boost Kick DI REALLY, REALLY goes a long way in making the matchup a lot easier to play.

Who needs to DI Boost kick whe you have shadow sneak hitstun cancel

That said once the hitstun cancel is patched out (it's going to happen at some point. I think)

Don't do this to me pls sakurai

 

[Jehtt]

I can't exactly test it myself right now, so I'll ask here: how exactly does Shadow Sneak get you out of boost kick? Doesn't it have something like a 20 frame startup? Once ZSS hits you with the move, I can't see how you're supposed to escape...

 

[Y2Kay]

I can't exactly test it myself right now, so I'll ask here: how exactly does Shadow Sneak get you out of boost kick? Doesn't it have something like a 20 frame startup? Once ZSS hits you with the move, I can't see how you're supposed to escape...

istudying is our last elite greninja main right now

 

[Asdioh]

I've felt for a while that ZSS' Uptilt is a "broken in theory, but not so much in practice" move. At frame 3, it's as fast as, or faster than, most characters' Jabs. Heck, most characters' anything. It also hits on both sides immediately, something which is very rare for an Uptilt, and extremely good for a move that has such an obvious "anti-air" design. It also has amazing invincibility. It also can kill. It also does 12% if both hits connect, which is crazy high for a tilt, especially such a fast tilt on such a fast character. In fact, it might have the highest speed:damage ratio for any tilts?

In practice, you don't see ZSS players use it much. Partly because it's difficult to find a use for it, since the most I see it is out of a perfect shield as a counterattack, and ZSS has other options there, such as UpB, Jab, and maybe Grab. Partly because the rest of her moveset is at least as amazing, so it's not as necessary to use it

 

[warionumbah2]

Hell, I still think he at least goes even with Rosalina.

Results + Theory goes against this claim.

 

[Jehtt]

istudying is our last elite greninja main right now

It says it is a mixup. How come? Is it not guaranteed?

 

[Das Koopa]

Steer away from needless Vinnie drama, let's stay on topic people ~

True

In that spirit, I'll talk about how we could make Jiggs better

IMO, Jigglypuff's aerials need more range and more hitstun so you can reliably chain aerials together at certain %s without serious risk of getting beaten back. It seems like the transition from Melee to Brawl killed her gimping game due to reduced hitstun/lack of combos, nerfed rest, etc, and it doesn't seem like any of these nerfs were properly rectified when we went from Brawl to Smash 4.

Additionally, Rest is an even higher-risk move now, because you don't have reliable throws that go into it, and a no-star KO situation will result in a pretty harsh punish that makes the move less viable for comebacks.

Basically, if the game's recoveries and defense are what works against her, she needs moves that compensate and work against that.

 

[FullMoon]

It says it is a mixup. How come? Is it not guaranteed?

IIRC you need to time it well but I think it's guaranteed if you do.

Greninja can't just ignore Boost Kick with Shadow Sneak due to some stuff that can happen like the first hit sending him over the blastzone with enough rage, but it definitely works otherwise.

 

[FallofBrawl]

True

In that spirit, I'll talk about how we could make Jiggs better

IMO, Jigglypuff's aerials need more range and more hitstun so you can reliably chain aerials together at certain %s without serious risk of getting beaten back. It seems like the transition from Melee to Brawl killed her gimping game due to reduced hitstun/lack of combos, nerfed rest, etc, and it doesn't seem like any of these nerfs were properly rectified when we went from Brawl to Smash 4.

Additionally, Rest is an even higher-risk move now, because you don't have reliable throws that go into it, and a no-star KO situation will result in a pretty harsh punish that makes the move less viable for comebacks.

Basically, if the game's recoveries and defense are what works against her, she needs moves that compensate and work against that.

I agree, she does not have enough disjoint on her aerials, making her always trade, which is always bad for Jiggs. She has one reliable combo into rest iirc, looping fh dair into rest is guaranteed but hard to set up. The other rest set ups are mix-ups/reads. I think if they just increase hitbox range on aerials or give her some kind of intangible poking tool or two, she would be much better. Although admittedly, her jab and pummels are godlike.

EDIT: and make her bair not last one frame.

 

[RonNewcomb]

TRSK Kills Mewtwo at 70%, I think that's a little too much for move with f1 invincibilty, easy to input, AND has setups into it.

I think the move should kill the cast ten percent later, but even five will do

Nah. Usually strong early kill confirms don't need the actual ko move nerfed, but the self-comboing move that it comboes out of is the one needing looking at. Ryu's utilt lock needs fixing, not tsrk. Same for zss and mk's uair elevator. They shouldn't "carry" a low% opponent.

No one complains about Marth's tipper fsmash, but only because he can't jab jab jab fsmash as a true combo at any%.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

People need to learn how to SDI Ryu's utilt "locks."

Smooth Criminal

 

[S_B]

On the topic of ZSS you should check out ESAM's new deal with it on her: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8MO9a9auqk
Taught me a lot. People in the comments going "see, she has weaknesses! only ******* think she's the second best character in the game!" then say Rosalina is better. Why.

It's a good video and he links to Trifroze's great Boost Kick DI guide. Now I'm less terrified of ZSS~!

Even with optimal DI, the move still kills WAY too early for how quickly it comes out and ZSS is still a stupidly powerful character that's invalidating a sizable chunk of the roster.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

True

In that spirit, I'll talk about how we could make Jiggs better

IMO, Jigglypuff's aerials need more range and more hitstun so you can reliably chain aerials together at certain %s without serious risk of getting beaten back. It seems like the transition from Melee to Brawl killed her gimping game due to reduced hitstun/lack of combos, nerfed rest, etc, and it doesn't seem like any of these nerfs were properly rectified when we went from Brawl to Smash 4.

Additionally, Rest is an even higher-risk move now, because you don't have reliable throws that go into it, and a no-star KO situation will result in a pretty harsh punish that makes the move less viable for comebacks.

Basically, if the game's recoveries and defense are what works against her, she needs moves that compensate and work against that.

I don't know a whole lot about Jigglypuff and what makes her tick, but if it's possible to attach a shieldstun multiplier to her aerials I think that would be...interesting, I guess? She's in the air most of the time which means no grabs, which means she needs something other than a grab to deal with shields. Shield safety seems like the next best thing? Either that or make Pound a reliable shield breaker. (Startup + shield damage.) Lingering hitboxes would beat spotdodge, so that's another option.

If Sing was unblockable that would also be a step up.

 

[wedl!!]

I don't know a whole lot about Jigglypuff and what makes her tick, but if it's possible to attach a shieldstun multiplier to her aerials I think that would be...interesting, I guess? She's in the air most of the time which means no grabs, which means she needs something other than a grab to deal with shields. Shield safety seems like the next best thing? Either that or make Pound a reliable shield breaker. (Startup + shield damage.) Lingering hitboxes would beat spotdodge, so that's another option.

Jigglypuff's lack of imposing pressure against passive players is her downfall, so the shieldstun changes would be great. Pound reliably breaking shields on its own is a no-no considering you can sort of link into it and get shield breaks.

If Sing was unblockable that would also be a step up.

...Do you really want an unblockable rest?

 

[S_B]

So it is to my understanding that people want and nerfed because they 'invalidate portions of the cast', right? So why in the world are we calling for nerfs to (I will admit I have bias)?! More specifically, I think it is silly to ask nerfs of and whoever else there may be. I won't lie that Ryu is an incredibly strong character and True Shoryuken is an absolute amazing kill move and same goes for Meta Knight with his Shuttle Loop Ladder. Just because a character has some overwhelming strengths, it doesn't always mean they need to be toned down.

The biggest problem with Sheik and ZSS is that they both have such simple ways to reset neutral, on top of their amazing frame data, pressure, and traps.

These characters don't really HAVE disadvantaged states, whereas Ryu and MK do.

 

[Game7a1]

...Do you really want an unblockable rest?

Sing would still be punishable, and it doesn't affect aerial opponents.
It wouldn't be a deadly buff, but making Sing unblockable just means it's slightly more safe.

 

[LancerStaff]

Like I said before, just let Jiggs grab in the air and she'd be perfect.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Like I said before, just let Jiggs grab in the air and she'd be perfect.

We already have a Jigglypuff with a command grab. His name is Wario.

 

[san.]

Jiggs needs less landing lag and ending lag on aerials (except nair and fair), more power on fair, and better linking dair. Then less endlag on tilts and smashes and more horizontal throw angles (not comboing is fine). This admittedly makes her more similar to Kirby, but they'll still be quite different.

I think jigg's gameplan goes from ground->air->ground->air a lot and it'd be nice to have better tools for that. There is no saving her bad specials. Pound and rest are workable enough.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Jigglypuff's lack of imposing pressure against passive players is her downfall, so the shieldstun changes would be great. Pound reliably breaking shields on its own is a no-no considering you can sort of link into it and get shield breaks.



...Do you really want an unblockable rest?

Can't you mash out of Sing fast enough to avoid Rest until you're at like 100% or something?

 

[LancerStaff]

We already have a Jigglypuff with a command grab. His name is Wario.

That's really all that could be done though. Unless you think Melee Puff was well designed...

 

[Game7a1]

Can't you mash out of Sing fast enough to avoid Rest until you're at like 100% or something?

Sing's a bit weird when it comes to waking up, but I'll be short about it's effectiveness.

• Sing has a Strong (Inner?) and Weak (Outer?) Hitbox. It also comes out three times (so it can be spot dodged and punished in the middle).
• Either hitbox can "trade" with a close-ranged attack (such as most Smashes) or moving attacks (such as Quick Attack or Falcon Kick) or stop an attack from happening.
• The weak one should be easy to mash out until triple digits (in other words, why use Sing at that point?).
• The strong one, though, can be mashed out easily until around 60%. At 60+%, Puff has a good chance to connect an attack, such as Rest, from even the first Sing hitbox (and Sing takes a long time as we know). And, of course, it'll be harder to mash out at higher percents. And given that the strong hitbox starts being a threat at around 60%, it becomes a reliable starter for a Rest KO.
• If only the last hitbox (Strong or Weak) connects, your mashing won't prevent a followup.

Let's also not forget Ledge-cancel Sing (or whatever the tech is called), where the first hitbox (Strong or Weak) is only needed until Puff snaps to the ledge. Then, it's a similar scenario as my last bullet point, but mashing can prevent a followup.
All of this still doesn't make Sing a reliable move, and it ends up being more of a read-dependent move (unreliable).

 

[Ffamran]

Jiggs needs less landing lag and ending lag on aerials (except nair and fair), more power on fair, and better linking dair. Then less endlag on tilts and smashes and more horizontal throw angles (not comboing is fine). This admittedly makes her more similar to Kirby, but they'll still be quite different.

I think jigg's gameplan goes from ground->air->ground->air a lot and it'd be nice to have better tools for that. There is no saving her bad specials. Pound and rest are workable enough.

Or we could go with the other idea and reduce landing data for all characters. Melee's was good, but it made sense since everyone fell much faster while Brawl's was a bit too good? Eh, I don't know. Smash 4's divided between really bad like Bowser, Charizard, Triple D, and Shulk who some may have good auto-cancel windows, but generally have high landing lag and really good like Captain Falcon, Cloud, Fox, Ryu, Sheik, and ZSS who have either really good auto-cancel windows and/or low landing lag on moves that really matter like Captain Falcon and ZSS's Uair have only 9 frames of landing lag while other flip Uair users have around 12 and above. In some cases, auto-cancel windows don't even matter like Fox's Bair's landing lag of 15 frames is probably never going to happen, so why not just lower it to 4 frames, the hard landing from auto-canceled aerials, then? I mean, the auto-cancel windows on it suggests it's not even meant to suffer landing lag. Some moves have really stupid landing lag like Falco's Fair used to have 32 frames - now it's 25 -, Fox's Fair has 27, and Sonic's Fair has 26. None of these moves are powerful, spammable, or so damn good they need high landing lag like that. Yes, Fox and Sonic run really fast, but guess what? Their Fairs if spammed, will become pathetically weak and they're already pathetically weak damage-wise; Fox's only does 7.4% and Sonic's only does 7% assuming they fully connect. Meanwhile, Pikachu's Fair which has 15 frames of landing lag and does 9.8% total. Both Pikachu and Sonic's Fair auto-cancels from a hop, but who's getting more reward and whose Fair is safer?

Moves that have really good landing data becomes really noticeable like Cloud, Ryu, Sheik, and ZSS's. Sometimes, it makes sense since Ryu's aerials outside of Bair and sort of Fair have short range, but for faster moving characters that also have good range like Sheik? Okay... What about Marth and Roy? Or what about Falco, Fox, and Wii Fit Trainer? This along with the 30 frames of landing lag on recovery moves should go down. There should be outliers, especially if those are really strong moves that can be high risk or low risk like perhaps Luigi's Super Jump Punch shouldn't have 20 frames of landing lag, but say, 40-ish instead of 68 since it's seems to be the gamble-type move where you either succeed or fail horribly, but (Dr.) Mario's Super Jump Punch? Yeah, it shouldn't have 30 when ZSS's has 23.

I've felt for a while that ZSS' Uptilt is a "broken in theory, but not so much in practice" move. At frame 3, it's as fast as, or faster than, most characters' Jabs. Heck, most characters' anything. It also hits on both sides immediately, something which is very rare for an Uptilt, and extremely good for a move that has such an obvious "anti-air" design. It also has amazing invincibility. It also can kill. It also does 12% if both hits connect, which is crazy high for a tilt, especially such a fast tilt on such a fast character. In fact, it might have the highest speed:damage ratio for any tilts?

In practice, you don't see ZSS players use it much. Partly because it's difficult to find a use for it, since the most I see it is out of a perfect shield as a counterattack, and ZSS has other options there, such as UpB, Jab, and maybe Grab. Partly because the rest of her moveset is at least as amazing, so it's not as necessary to use it

Don't forget that it's recoilless and, I think, transcendent!

ZSS's Utilt is good, but she just has more moves to use and can do similar things. It's kind of like how Lucas and Ness have really good Dtilts, but they've got other things to use and it might not be the move for their game plan. Now, if Fox or Mario had Lucas or Ness's Dtilt, but with their own Dtilt's range? They would go ham with their even better close combat game. Actually, wouldn't that mean they would have a Dtilt confirm to their kill moves? Fox with Lucas Dtilt to Up Smash or Mario with Ness Dtilt to Side Smash. Sometimes, they're just rare moves you don't see being used, but are integral to a characters game plan like how Cloud and Mega Man's Dtilts let them slide under projectiles and act as a burst movement, but they're generally doing other stuff like Cloud would be moving around and playing with his Nair while Mega Man is moving about pelting you with lemons. Now, if say, Luigi, a more grounded fighter had their Dtilt? Welp, you just solved an issue about Luigi's need to perfect shield projectiles to not slide back against them and you gave him an incredible burst movement option. In some other cases, a character would just prefer having someone's move like Falco's Utilt is great for anti-airing, but its hitbox is central to his body. ZSS's anti-airs too, but it has more horizontal range, more safety when it's recoilless, and transcendent while also lowering her hitbox. Falco would love to have her Utilt because of all that plus it would look stylish. Seriously, I bet even Wario players would want to see Wario do a move like that.

 

[Sonicninja115]

It would be nice if jiggs got a situational rest combo, like Uthrow-rest in Melee.

 

[san.]

Or we could go with the other idea and reduce landing data for all characters. Melee's was good, but it made sense since everyone fell much faster while Brawl's was a bit too good? Eh, I don't know. Smash 4's divided between really bad like Bowser, Charizard, Triple D, and Shulk who some may have good auto-cancel windows, but generally have high landing lag and really good like Captain Falcon, Cloud, Fox, Ryu, Sheik, and ZSS who have either really good auto-cancel windows and/or low landing lag on moves that really matter like Captain Falcon and ZSS's Uair have only 9 frames of landing lag while other flip Uair users have around 12 and above.

It depends. Similar style moves should have similar landing lags. The game does this for the most part, but many moves are still out of place. Such a sweeping change of reducing all landing lag could have unforeseen consequences, but having a character with 17+ frames of landing lag everywhere isn't good, either.

In some cases, auto-cancel windows don't even matter like Fox's Bair's landing lag of 15 frames is probably never going to happen, so why not just lower it to 4 frames, the hard landing from auto-canceled aerials, then? I mean, the auto-cancel windows on it suggests it's not even meant to suffer landing lag.

That would not be a good idea for such a strong move, imo. Even if the autocancel is good, there is still a window frame advantage on shield and hit for the autocancel timing.

Some moves have really stupid landing lag like Falco's Fair used to have 32 frames - now it's 25 -, Fox's Fair has 27, and Sonic's Fair has 26. None of these moves are powerful, spammable, or so damn good they need high landing lag like that. Yes, Fox and Sonic run really fast, but guess what? Their Fairs if spammed, will become pathetically weak and they're already pathetically weak damage-wise; Fox's only does 7.4% and Sonic's only does 7% assuming they fully connect. Meanwhile, Pikachu's Fair which has 15 frames of landing lag and does 9.8% total. Both Pikachu and Sonic's Fair auto-cancels from a hop, but who's getting more reward and whose Fair is safer?

All of them seem to have high landing lag. Pikachu's 15 frames made sense when electrical attacks had extra frames of shield hitlag. He suffered just as much of a disadvantage on shield as the others back then. Why they're so high I can only guess, but they are difficult to powershield and find the timing to release shield. They are also likely to have a hitbox right as they land.

Sonic and Pikachu's fairs are used in entirely different situations. If Sonic had something like Pikachu's fair, he'd be able to deal tons of damage out of a spindash punish and with Sonic's superior air speed, extend it further than Pikachu ever could.

All the fairs you listed are still pretty good with their intended uses. ~20 wouldn't be so bad for those moves.

Moves that have really good landing data becomes really noticeable like Cloud, Ryu, Sheik, and ZSS's. Sometimes, it makes sense since Ryu's aerials outside of Bair and sort of Fair have short range, but for faster moving characters that also have good range like Sheik? Okay... What about Marth and Roy? Or what about Falco, Fox, and Wii Fit Trainer? This along with the 30 frames of landing lag on recovery moves should go down. There should be outliers, especially if those are really strong moves that can be high risk or low risk like perhaps Luigi's Super Jump Punch shouldn't have 20 frames of landing lag, but say, 40-ish instead of 68 since it's seems to be the gamble-type move where you either succeed or fail horribly, but (Dr.) Mario's Super Jump Punch? Yeah, it shouldn't have 30 when ZSS's has 23.

True. Randomly bad moves don't make much sense. Out of place numbers on moves' stats don't make much sense either.

 

[Planty]

Results + Theory goes against this claim.

You need to be more clear. Are you saying that Rosalina wins this? MK wins this? I, along with many other players from both sides of the matchup, believe this to be in MK's favor by a noticeable degree. Are you refuting this?

 

[DanGR]

He's saying it's not even- MK wins.

What are MK's other unfavorable matchups besides Greninja- a character who isn't very relevant in the meta, atm?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Jiggly:

• Give jiggly better aerials (give Fair and Nair more range and damage. Give Uair more damage and disjoint). Give side B less end lag. Give rest more damage and make it kill earlier.

But idk how I feel about wish lists. They make you not as appreciative of your character.

 

[Deleted member]

He's saying it's not even- MK wins.

What are MK's other unfavorable matchups besides Greninja- a character who isn't very relevant in the meta, atm?

Aren't Sonic, Sheik and ZSS seen as unfavorable for him?

 

[Emblem Lord]

You guys still think MK has match-ups?

Little demon is a literal coin flip every time he is in neutral.

Convert or nah

 

[Jehtt]

You guys still think MK has match-ups?

Little demon is a literal coin flip every time he is in neutral.

Convert or nah

Well, if your claim is that winning the neutral is all there is to MK's matchups (which seems like a silly claim), then yes, he would still have matchups. The characters who keep him away the best in neutral would be his worst matchups in this case.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I'm really finding out solo maiming a character provides so many benefits. It's ridiculous.

 

[wedl!!]

You guys still think MK has match-ups?

Little demon is a literal coin flip every time he is in neutral.

Convert or nah

A similar sort of thing applies to Ryu IMO and you would agree with this. His neutral is better than MK's but it still awkward against a handful of characters.

Main reason he goes even with Sheik is the conversion coinflip. Otherwise it's a minor disadvantage.

Speaking of Ryu: Mr. R said this on twitter earlier: https://twitter.com/Mr_RSmash/status/685862424566738945 & I kind of died inside.

 

[Latias]

Speaking of Ryu: Mr. R said this on twitter earlier: https://twitter.com/Mr_RSmash/status/685862424566738945 & I kind of died inside.

Why would that make you die inside?

 

[Plain Yogurt]

I'm really finding out solo maiming a character provides so many benefits. It's ridiculous.

It WOULD typically be easier to maim someone when they're on their own, yes.

Nitpicking aside, would you mind going into detail? There's certainly pros to putting all your focus on one character, but having a character for your rough matchups certainly doesn't hurt.

 

[PK Gaming]

I'm really finding out solo maiming a character provides so many benefits. It's ridiculous.

Yikes dude, keep it PG13

 

[Baby_Sneak]

It WOULD typically be easier to maim someone when they're on their own, yes.

Nitpicking aside, would you mind going into detail? There's certainly pros to putting all your focus on one character, but having a character for your rough matchups certainly doesn't hurt.

Lol, my mistake for a spelling error. Not like This is English class or anything buuuuuuut

It's crazy how much of the game mechanics Depends on how executionally sound you are with your character. From spacing determining the Advantage/disadvantage, what options are available (when you're able to perform metaknight's kill% shuttle loop death traps 100%, you just gave metaknight a new option that the opponent now has to be on guard for at all times. No praying for mistakes. If you get hit by anything, you're dead), recovery (techs), edge guarding (techs and spacing), reading (can't get rewards out of reads without having a grip on your character. Simply impossible), comboing and most importantly, neutral. The neutral I say is the most important because not only does it dicate how the Match is going to go (obviously), but it's the hardest and most rewarding thing to execute your inputs in. You have to properly create a wall of Normals with ever-changing and near random fake gaps and sporadic movement. Accomplishing all that requires and solid amount of time with a character and one that's not really known imo. Ledge trapping (keeping your opponent on the ledge) requires you to be in the right distance and properly punish all actions in all scenarios. That takes execution and familiarity with your character. Proper adjustment for a mistake you've done when comboing, playing the neutral, in disadvantage with DIing and throwing out your best defensive aerial requires you to be comfortable with your main. Recovering and knowing all your options requires time. Knowing what move beats what requires time. Movement options pretty much explains themselves.
Just about everything in the game requires you to be comfortable with your main. It's crazy (well to me if you already knew all of that).

EDIT: PK Gaming you're twisting my meaning. I think you should keep it PG13 too lol

 

[apparently fuz]

I've felt for a while that ZSS' Uptilt is a "broken in theory, but not so much in practice" move. At frame 3, it's as fast as, or faster than, most characters' Jabs. Heck, most characters' anything. It also hits on both sides immediately, something which is very rare for an Uptilt, and extremely good for a move that has such an obvious "anti-air" design. It also has amazing invincibility. It also can kill. It also does 12% if both hits connect, which is crazy high for a tilt, especially such a fast tilt on such a fast character. In fact, it might have the highest speed:damage ratio for any tilts?

In practice, you don't see ZSS players use it much. Partly because it's difficult to find a use for it, since the most I see it is out of a perfect shield as a counterattack, and ZSS has other options there, such as UpB, Jab, and maybe Grab. Partly because the rest of her moveset is at least as amazing, so it's not as necessary to use it

You don't really see ZSS use many of her grounded anti-air options, (u-tilt, u-smash) as once the opponent is in the air, you have an opportunity to convert that into a kill. As you said, the amount of options that she has is ridiculous, to the extent where it's down to what she wants to do, rather than what she can do.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I disagree with Mr.R, but w/e.

I dont see how he loses to Pika for example when Pika's only option is to run.

ESAM lost to flippin DJ Jack.

Come on now.

 

[PK Gaming]

EDIT: PK Gaming you're twisting my meaning. I think you should keep it PG13 too lol

Reread what you posted