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Now that I have a setup for my Wii U to my monitor maybe I can be the hero Greninja mains needThis is literally the worst smash news I've heard since Vinne chose to quit
Don't fail us now, istudying!
I wonder who pulled the trigger?
Hides the gun
It's worse than that: if I refresh a page, it'll randomly show or not show sigs...
"Fit", yes. "Neatly"? Maybe in a few rare cases...
Signatures appear once per page, per user. In other words, if this was my first post on this page, my signature would be underneath it; but since this is not my first post on this page, my signature won't be underneath it.
Good question. I think certain characters can be identified by these categories, but at the same time, I don't think any character can be pigeonholed into just one category and nothing else. Every character has a variety of diffuse elements to them, I don't think it's as black and white as, "X is purely rushdown, Y is purely zoner, and never the twain shall meet."
Not really, since Smash characters come from other games where they're almost always well-rounded to deal with all of their game's hazards. If you need a character to sit at an extreme in a fighting game, you almost need to design them from the ground up to fit that game's particular mechanics. Duck Hunt Dog and Captain Falcon are characters whose entire movesets were created from whole cloth, and they not coincidentally possess extreme gameplay styles.
If I had a dollar for everytime someone made that joke.........Better nerf Greninja
I'm like 99% sure that he isn't quitting the game anymore due to the fact that he found his bags. Completely irrelevant but whatever.
Can confirm that it does make sense and I completely agree. I think it can be argued that EVERY character is a mix-up of an archetype and will never fit into one, maybe in the exception of some specific "all-round" characters. Even then, those "all-round" characters (like
and ) have other attributes that they use to their advantage.
Sorry I missed this, yea I am honestly not too sure about Yoshi, I see players like TheWall utilize a rushdown strategy and it almost always works for him. Although I don't think he really counts as a high-level or optimal Yoshi. Roy can't really approach for attacking either, I think him staying very safe in neutral (just nairing/eruption everywhere) is the way to go, and then he must use his speed/throw game for punishing things he's baited.
This so true. Also IMO G&W's killing problems aren't as bad as some other low tiers, but they are very significant. He has smash attacks that have very low cooldown, so they are good for baiting reactions (especially at the ledge), but they do have a lot of startup frames. This is really unfortunate for G&W because his power was significantly toned down from brawl to SSB4, so he likely won't kill you before 100% (unless you get edgeguarded or die to a charged up smash after your ledge getup is read/predicted by the G&W player). Also many of his aerial killing moves do not kill reliably until after 120% in most cases (up air can kill very early, but the actual hitbox is very hard to connect because the windbox is a lot bigger than the actual hitbox). He has a d-throw to up air setup at higher percents, but the setup only works for around a 5% range and is basically useless against floaties/medium weight characters. Up smash is god-like and acts like a lagless counter move, which is awesome. You can use it to put pressure on opponent's shield, catch landings, read ledge getups, etc. I think G&W's rather noticable lack of reliable kill setups and kill moves puts him at a significant disadvantage against a lot of the cast, especially when combined with the fact that he is the third lightest character and the fifth floaties character, which makes him very vulnerable to getting killed really early.
His killing problems mainly stem from slow startup and not safety as much I've recently noticed. His Smash attacks are among the safest in the game on shield thanks to the significant disjoint and low recovery time. The sweetspots are frustrating but I can deal with them. It's his lack of flexible, quick KO options that are the greatest issue with him killing. DTilt is kind of nice, frame 6, but it only starts KOing around the ledge at 100% or later depending on rage and the opponent's weight. It's also pretty laggy. The second hit of UAir is difficult to land but quite satisfying and powerful when it does. Speaking of which..
UAir's windbox is too valuable a juggling tool to give up. What needs to happen is the first hit needs to autolink and not have knockback growth like it currently does. I also agree with buffing FAir's power (probably just damage) and making UTilt hit grounded opponents I don't think it ever did that though).
I really hope Vinnie changes his mind, unless it's an actual retirement or somethingI'm like 99% sure that he isn't quitting the game anymore due to the fact that he found his bags. Completely irrelevant but whatever.
Can confirm that it does make sense and I completely agree. I think it can be argued that EVERY character is a mix-up of an archetype and will never fit into one, maybe in the exception of some specific "all-round" characters. Even then, those "all-round" characters (like
http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1so4n7p
I can't seem to find it now but I swear I saw a link where Vinnie was saying that he'd quit because of his bags but he would possibly keep playing if he did. https://twitter.com/Vinnie516/status/683368621796544512 In this tweet he says that his bags were found and he seems much more positive about GEN3SIS than before, where he might've not played, so anything is possible. Hopefully he does keep playing as I'm sure he is an inspiration to many Sheik mains with his top play.http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1so4n7p
ESAM'S follow up video was good too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuPJ_ApYooQ
and his follow up to that video: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1so4pk2
hate to be the harbinger of bad news. Genesis will be his last tournament.........
, goes even with them but I'm sure people who main other relatively good characters (, ) are annoyed at how good those two are. I feel as if both and could get worse without any balance changes and bridge the gap between the lower tiers.
Are we using the same definition, here?
I think there's SOME meta development that can and will happen with other characters in time, but I think that it won't change the way the tier list has fallen very much: some lower tiers may rise to mid and some mid will fall to low, but I don't expect high tier to change very much if at all.Actually, I do have an interesting question in regards to Sheik. This game has been around for about a year now and Sheik's meta has been pushed pretty far after the Kiddy Dong Hoo-Hah nerf whereas other characters haven't been afforded that luxury. If there are no more balance changes, do we think Sheik will stay at the top of the tiers or will she get worse as people understand her more and more? I really don't mind Sheik and ZSS being at the top because my main,
Or, I could be completely ****ing wrong and we go into 20XX mode
Well....... That's just flat out terrible, after reading/watching both Vinnie's and Esam's parts. I thought the smash community was great. But wow. ZeRo was wrong. The smash community sounds terrible. And, the sad thing is, Esam is right about the Nakat - Ness thing. People on twitch would probably do that.* I bet most people don't ever look at the twitch chat. I rarely do. But sometimes I do, and I hear a lot of bad things. People constantly hate on people. Dabuz and other Rosalina mains for playing this character. Same with Shiek mains (And if Void is as nice as Esam said he was, that makes it even worse). ZeRo and MVD get hate for being fat (Which Esam never even mentioned, which makes stuff worse.), Nakat and others get hate for doing bad at some tournaments, and there's of course the Vinnie thing. The only people that appear to not get SOME hate is like, Nairo, Esam, and Abadango, maybe Ally. And, it's rediculous. You're really hurting them, it upsets them, this is the kind of thing that made bullying a criminal offense. And the fact that it needs to be that is rediculus. Why would you even bully them in the first place????? Think of how YOU would feel. I feel this kind of thing when I'm in class and somebody says something like "Oh, this is easy" or "You're stupid if you don't know" and I DON'T KNOW IT!!!!! It's upsetting! think about the people who don't know. Think about the people who suicide. Those aren't accidents. They did it because they were upset. Why would you even get someone TO that point? Even if I tried to do that, I coudn't do that anyway. Because I'm not heartless or anything. But there is one thing that is worse.http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1so4n7p
ESAM'S follow up video was good too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuPJ_ApYooQ
and his follow up to that video: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1so4pk2
hate to be the harbinger of bad news. Genesis will be his last tournament.........
Lucas is the one with a dead mother, not Ness.
Oh well Esam said Ness's mom dies so.... Mistake on his part
I don't think I was complaining about safety (I was saying it was one of his saving graces actually). Sorry to correct you, I just wasn't sure if you carefully read my post. I was rather arguing about the lack of real kill setups that G&W and also startup issues on his main kill tools (i.e. his smashes). Otherwise I agree with everything you said.
). I also find the severe lack of killpower on his fair and bair rather underwhelming, especially when I see red sparks on the opponent's character at the edge at 120%+ and they still don't die... Bair I can somewhat forgive because of its ability to chain into each other at low-mid percents, but still I would really appreciate if the KBG on the move was high enough to kill at reasonable percents while having low enough base knockback to combo into another bair at low percents. 
iirc the joke was that he mains Ness because Ness has a mother, unlike himself. Pretty horrid thing to say to the guy.
If that's the case, that's even worse
The thing is, unless you have a good Pac-Man in your area (who's also willing to help you learn) you probably don't know how to get through his stuff. In the absence of knowledge, he can certainly seem like a brick wall.
True, but he's still one of the few characters that can set up any kind of "fortress" at all (not saying hydrant and trampoline constitute a fortress, but he still has more "fortress-like" tools than most of the cast).
I wasn't trying to correct you with the safety, it was just an observation of mine.I don't think I was complaining about safety (I was saying it was one of his saving graces actually). Sorry to correct you, I just wasn't sure if you carefully read my post. I was rather arguing about the lack of real kill setups that G&W and also startup issues on his main kill tools (i.e. his smashes). Otherwise I agree with everything you said.
What bothers me a lot is his aerials. It is so easy for the second hit to not connect. I can imagine professional G&W players being really frustrated about this (Regi or Gimr please prove me wrong
On the topic of up tilt, it used to behave similarly to mario's up tilt (in the early days of 3DS) because it had much bigger hitboxes. However, I may be wrong about this because I can't seem to verify my information based on patch notes, so apologies for that. Regardless, I am still in favor of buffing G&W's up tilt so that it connects properly at low percentages on characters with smaller frames, because right now sometimes G&W's up tilt animation itself will actually touch the character hurtbox, but the hitbox for G&W's up tilt will be off by a few pixels or so, which is really frustrating and annoying.
Or you can be a complete jerk and pick the Links and just walk around. I kid, I kid, but that's a semi-decent tactic at best and shouldn't be used too seriously unless a Key pops out.
I'm not worried about ZSS that much as greninjaActually, I do have an interesting question in regards to Sheik. This game has been around for about a year now and Sheik's meta has been pushed pretty far after the Kiddy Dong Hoo-Hah nerf whereas other characters haven't been afforded that luxury. If there are no more balance changes, do we think Sheik will stay at the top of the tiers or will she get worse as people understand her more and more? I really don't mind Sheik and ZSS being at the top because my main,
Wut?
I wish the rest of us could feel the same way.
That's because Greninja is to Sheik what the GoBots were to the Transformers.
I can't remember the names off the top of my head, but I can assure that these were great Pac-Man mains that knew what they were doing; this was somewhat early on and I haven't faced THAT many. But even if Hydrant stalls your falling, what's to say Link can't F-Air you away? What's to say that Bonus Fruits can't be punished by a good read aerial or ground arc attack? There's a certain extent to where Pac benefits from those moves.
I'm not worried about ZSS too much cuz of shadow sneak swagI wish the rest of us could feel the same way.
That's because Greninja is to Sheik what the GoBots were to the Transformers.
But seriously, how you feel about Sheik is how most players feel about ZSS (and probably also Sheik).
Assuming you will be able to guess every option is fallacious. I haven't said that these options are invincible, just that you won't possibly be able to keep up with everything pacman can do offstage every time.
It's a 2-hit, right? 2-hit moves don't need auto-link angles. 2-hits generally only need weighted knockback which Mr. G&W has, but apparently only on the windbox and not the actual hitbox which has base knockback... Why? Mr. G&W's Uair seems like it's intended to hit twice, so there isn't a reason why it shouldn't have weighted knockback on the first hit. It's basically like how Fox,
Maybe all of Sheik's moves? On paper, they're pathetically weak, but because they are pathetically weak, Sheik can rack up damage with them easily. Kirby and Samus's Dairs come to mind as they're slow moves on characters who move slowly in the air, but they end up being combo starters for them. Yoshi's Fair would count as well, but it's more for spacing which works wonders when Yoshi's head is basically made of metal. Zelda's Dair (and Zelda herself) on paper is nothing to write home about, but in a game where Dairs are generally ****, hers is good when she can always spike with a clean one or a late one. Maybe Fox's Bair? Its frame data isn't good, it's average speed or slow for him, takes a while to recover, and while it does 13%, it has weaker knockback than ZSS's, but the main draw is its auto-cancel windows allowing Fox to easily bait with it or hit and immediately move after hitting. Oh, and probably Wii Fit Trainer's everything when they said she has no range.
Apparently Ryu's and Peach's UAirs are autolink so
And I just remembered NAKAT plays Lucas as well some times, so it goes either way.....
You know what? Why not go all the way and fix EVERY damn hitbox-in relation to animation so the stupid phantom hits don't happen? Seriously, this is a gigantic problem in Smash 4. Almost every character has that one attack that constantly misses because the animation sucks. The biggest offenders are Marth and Samus, but almost every characters has this. Cloud's Nair has a horrid animation that doesn't match the hitbox at all, many of Lucas' attacks have horrid range and don't hit like the animation shows, etc.
