Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Y2Kay]

Emblem Lord is respected? He's the most childish poster I've seen in this thread..

He is respectable in terms of how he does in tournaments. He's a good player in a loaded region (new jersey). He's definitely smart about the game, but his delivery can come off a little offensive at times.

no offense Emblem Lord.......


Can we just drop the checking too, please? It just goes into a never ending cycle.....

 

[Djent]

On the topic of Shulk, I just watched Tremendo Dude play Shimitake on VSGC. He won a commanding game 1 with a JV2, lost momentum game 2 and couldn't regain it, then finally had his character's terrible recovery exploited game 3 (Shimi took <50% during that match). I realize that neither of these are super high-level players, but their set was still kind of informative. People (rightly) say Pikachu has to "work too hard" for kills, but against Shulk it was kind of the opposite. While he may not be bottom tier, no one in their right mind aside from character-lovers will main him. He seems to be in a similar spot as Brawl's Pokemon Trainer when it comes to viability, effort vs. reward, character-specific tech, and issues with attrition thanks to fatigue. At least he has a "real" down-B.

 

[Ffamran]

Hmm... that's interesting; thinking that Cloud's Limit Break Climhazzard's not even going to matter for his recovery even though it's his only way of consistently ledge sweet-spotting without being close to the ledge. Why? Watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfPggluMhcU#t=0m54s.

Climhazzard is basically being a vertical Blazer or Dolphin Slash without the ability to ledge sweet-spot without Limit, being very close to the ledge, or falling from the second part of Climhazzard high enough that you won't SD. It's also without I-frames without Limit. Here's the thing, what's easier to hit? A linearly moving target or a diagonally moving target? Cloud going to sweet-spot the ledge with a Limit Climhazzard will the hitbox above and in front of him and going straight up versus Marth and Roy going diagonally with an above and in front hitbox. He's completely helpless behind him which you can say the same thing for Marth and Roy, but they're moving diagonally... Cloud's moving linearly. Ike and Kirby also have linear recoveries, but Ike can cover himself since Aether involves a throw, a disjointed hitbox, and Ike also has another recovery option while Kirby has multiple jumps to stall and confuse you. When Cloud has to recovery he only has two options: Climhazzard or jump, and Climhazzard only ledge sweet-spots in certain situations unlike say, Roy who also has only two options, but he's almost guaranteed a ledge sweet-spot. Also, he can alter the angle of Blazer unlike Cloud. The thing is while Cloud can move horizontally with Limit Climhazzard, that's after the hitbox is out and he's completely helpless. Granted, he'll be moving a high speed horizontally - kind of like a full Quick Draw from Ike.

Yes, Cloud's recovery sucks, but if he doesn't have to leave the stage it's fine like how Little Mac and Melee Falco operate. At the same time, it's time to exploit the fact Cloud recovering low like that just needs you to jump and put a hitbox to his back. Knowing that, putting fear into Cloud will force him to Climhazzard as close as possible regardless if he's got Limit or not or land on-stage which isn't ideal...

Speaking of which, have people noticed how almost all recovery moves leave you with 30 or even more frames of landing lag? Kind of excessive in my opinion. Yes, grabbing the ledge is safe, especially since people can't edge-hog you anymore, but not being able to land on-stage? Basically not being able to have another option unless your name is Cloud? (19), Falco (19), Fox (20) - only their Up Specials since their Side Specials do leave them in noticeable land lag, especially Falco Phantasm -, Lucina (20), Marth (20), Palutena (22), Robin (26), Ryu (18 or 12; EX), Samus (24), Sheik (20 and 23; no input Bouncing Fish or 27; input for Bouncing Fish), Villager (20; balloon landing-only) Wario (20), Zelda (21; Din's Fire...) and ZSS (23)? And if you're a slow-moving character, choosing to land on-stage can get you punished since you can't run as fast or abuse your high air speed and/or air mobility - hi, Rosalina - to move and land wherever you want? The only moves with +30 frames of landing lag I remember that weren't stall-and-fall aerials like Bowser and Toon Link's Dair was pre-1.0.8 Falco's Fair which had 32 frames of landing lag. This might be a strange thing to ask, but I think all recovery moves should have at most 20 frames of landing lag instead of 30. It'll give more options, especially since unlike aerials, you can't really auto-cancel these recovery moves.

 

[Sonicninja115]

@Latias the Monado arts are insanely complicated. With MALLC and other techs we never know what we might find with Shulk.

 

[C0rvus]

What is there?


Emblem Lord is respected? He's the most childish poster I've seen in this thread..

Well, there's mostly optimal MALLC (Monado Art Landing Lag Cancel) stuff. Blockstrings, shield break setups, etc. Even that stuff is pretty situational. Other than that, there's maybe more to do with first hit up air into stuff, and just general optimization and use of all his tools. Also the stuff I've been hearing about nair being frame neutral on shield drop has immediate merit.

As for your second statement, I will say that Emblem Lord can be pretty BM, and sometimes he likes to make posts that don't really contribute. BUT! He is one of the best players that posts in this thread, he backs **** up, calls out bull**** when others won't, and is actually a pretty nice guy. He has given me some guidance and beaten me many times.

 

[Solfiner]

MALLC is highly underrated in my (biased) opinion. It removes all landing lag and gives you i-frames. It can lead to some pretty insane moments, like someone whiffing a shield grab because Shulk suddenly defies logic and becomes invincible.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Shulk talk in this thread always gets me down. "His frame data-" yes thank you we've known for a year now.

People bring up MALLC all the time but honestly I find myself using the Monado activation to cancel Shulk's run more often. Nothing more fun than lining up Smash Art as you charge a dude hanging from a ledge and sniping their ledge jump with a running UTilt. Plus the startup invincibility saved my skin more than a couple times at my last weekly and that's way easier to exploit with the run cancel imo (I'm not even sure if it has invincibility in the air? Or as much? Meh).

Shulk will probably never be high tier unless they give him more efficient follow ups but as long as he keeps me thinking (and trust me, he does), that doesn't matter much to me. Although I do hope he finds his way out of this "is he garbage or not?" mess he gets into literally every time he gets brought up nowadays.

 

[Solfiner]

Shulk talk in this thread always gets me down. "His frame data-" yes thank you we've known for a year now.

I'm really sick of this as well. I'd rather talk about how to advance his meta than about how terrible his frame data is all the time.

That's not to say that it's good to ignore flaws of the character of course, but it does become a problem when we talk more about a characters flaws than their strengths.

 

[Ghostbone]

As good as manado art shenanigans are, it gives your opponent heaps of warning so scenarios like someone missing a shield grab should never happen as they should know shulk doesn't get landing lag.

 

[TriTails]

This might be a strange thing to ask, but I think all recovery moves should have at most 20 frames of landing lag instead of 30. It'll give more options, especially since unlike aerials, you can't really auto-cancel these recovery moves.

Bruh.

Fire Jump Punch confirmed to be broken welp.

While I'm all on reducing its landing lag, 20 frames landing lag is complete nonsense for a move that fast and legit kills people at 50% with rage.

But then there's TSRK which can be setup'd, invincible from frame 1 till the hitbox activates, comes out two frames faster, goes higher, kills a bit later but has no landing lag on a character with crazy damage output and better mobility so IDK .

 

[ZcK]

Well many people have this funny habit of calling a character garbage when it is just lack of knowledge about such character what promotes those opinions.

Granted some meaningful discussion has been brought up about shulk and in the previous threads the discussion was dismissed more often.

Anyway unless the Monado landing lag cancel is done perfectly he still has some landing lag and it really is not that good of a pressure tool since a monado art takes 1 second to activate , he still has his wavebouncing and run cancel when activating his arts and the buffering stuff when cancelling them he has lots of tools to work with


Also he has one of the best mobility specs in the game and that rarely gets abused.

About his matchups againist the high tiers he has some neat stuff that may not win him the matchup but making it harder for them at least for example ZSS death combo does not work with him if he inputs monado shield while being up air'd and if sheik does really struggle to kill someone it is fat shield shulk.
Fox and sonic are stupid because they match shulk speed and can be constantly applying pressure but fox at least is not that hard to gimp and dies early ,have not played a good sonic to tell anything.

Finally if he gets a stock lead he can play even lamer than sonic running just monado shielding and escaping once the art expires jumping to the heavens no one reaches or being sanic fast until he gets shield back. That or just turning buster on to capitalize on the damage.

 

[Ffamran]

Bruh.

Fire Jump Punch confirmed to be broken welp.

While I'm all on reducing its landing lag, 20 frames landing lag is complete nonsense for a move that fast and legit kills people at 50% with rage.

But then there's TSRK which can be setup'd, invincible from frame 1 till the hitbox activates, comes out two frames faster, goes higher, kills a bit later but has no landing lag on a character with crazy damage output and better mobility so IDK .

Well, there should be outliers, but for most recovery moves, they shouldn't be 30. Luigi (68 frames) and Lucario (60 frames) have the highest landing lag for their Up Specials, but in Lucario's case, he can "change" it, except I don't know how. If there are outliers, then maybe Luigi's should be 48? It's not like he can recover from the depths of hell like Lucario. Even then, figure that Luigi's Super Jump Punch rarely is used on-stage or to recover on-stage since Luigi's air speed just dies when he uses it. Combined with it's situational use, yes it is a powerful and risky move, but 68 frames might be excessive.

This is also potentially a stupid idea, but I think maybe 98% of moves that leave you helpless should not. At the most, they should be like Sonic's Spring Jump that takes away your ability to use another Special and/or jump. I mean, sure, Roy going for a Blazer finisher in the air has its risks since he can put himself higher up and if he gets hit, could die at high percents, but knowing he'll be in helpless mode after using Blazer would definitely stop people from even thinking about it. Now, what if he wasn't helpless after Blazer? People will take more risks to use it as a finisher or to catch people in the air. The only problem with this idea is that recoveries will start to become insane while bad ones will be even worse. Fox having a linear recovery? Fire Fox to Fox Illusion horizontally up top. Now he's falling down from the other side. Or Fox Illusion to Fire Fox down, fast fall, and jump to the ledge. Then you have Little Mac gaining some more distance with both Specials only to still die. It's late at night and I feel stupid.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Well many people have this funny habit of calling a character garbage when it is just lack of knowledge about such character what promotes those opinions.

Granted some meaningful discussion has been brought up about shulk and in the previous threads the discussion was dismissed more often.

Anyway unless the Monado landing lag cancel is done perfectly he still has some landing lag and it really is not that good of a pressure tool since a monado art takes 1 second to activate , he still has his wavebouncing and run cancel when activating his arts and the buffering stuff when cancelling them he has lots of tools to work with


Also he has one of the best mobility specs in the game and that rarely gets abused.

About his matchups againist the high tiers he has some neat stuff that may not win him the matchup but making it harder for them at least for example ZSS death combo does not work with him if he inputs monado shield while being up air'd and if sheik does really struggle to kill someone it is fat shield shulk.
Fox and sonic are stupid because they match shulk speed and can be constantly applying pressure but fox at least is not that hard to gimp and dies early ,have not played a good sonic to tell anything.

Finally if he gets a stock lead he can play even lamer than sonic running just monado shielding and escaping once the art expires jumping to the heavens no one reaches or being sanic fast until he gets shield back. That or just turning buster on to capitalize on the damage.

No he doesn't have the best mobility specs in the game. He temporarily has the best mobility specs in the game for 13 seconds. Which doesn't cut it. If we breakdown the math he's not in those states for very long. That's of course assuming you play in the increased mobility states and ignore the monado lag cancel gimmick. It's not as though people are ignorant of Shulk. We're fully aware of his stuff and it's rather underwhelming and really not worth it in the end.

Shulk is a failure as a character.

 

[UberMadman]

As good as manado art shenanigans are, it gives your opponent heaps of warning so scenarios like someone missing a shield grab should never happen as they should know shulk doesn't get landing lag.

That may be true, but that still means that Shulk can opt not to go for a grab on landing and the opponent needs to read whatever Shulk may do next. Even if Shulk just immediately jumps back, that means he was able to apply safe aerial pressure and not get punished, and if Shulk goes for a spaced jab or down tilt while the opponent was trying to react to a potential grab then he tacks on percent. Basically what I'm trying to say MALLC is still a useful technique for Shulk's neutral even if the opponent is aware of the technique. Not groundbreaking or enough to redeem his flaws as a character, but an important tech that people shouldn't really be overlooking.

EDIT: Slightly misread, I thought you meant Shulk could shield on landing and grab when the opponent attakcs Shulk's shield instead, but my point still stands.

 

[HoSmash4]

He is respectable in terms of how he does in tournaments. He's a good player in a loaded region (new jersey). He's definitely smart about the game, but his delivery can come off a little offensive at times.

no offense Emblem Lord.......


Can we just drop the checking too, please? It just goes into a never ending cycle.....

I really dont care if he is offensive at times, one thing for sure is his quality of information is better than most people here in my opinion.

Like we usually sit here and complain about x character's options and x why it should be nerfed but hey I'm learning new information from a few people here. Lets keep it that way.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Show me your drive and intelligence, and I will give you a friend, a mentor and a wealth of knowledge.

Show me bullcrap and you will get it right back.

But never will I spare the sharpness of my tongue nor the surliness of my demeanor for the sake of diplomacy.

As far as shulk is concerned, at this point in the metagame we know what makes a character relevant. He doesn't quite have the juice.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

I honestly feel that Shulk needs lots of time to develop because of how technical he is. However many people aren't playing him so I feel it will take a more frame data buffs for people to notice him. I don't believe Shulk is bad but underdeveloped. But whatever you do, do not take PK's opinion to heart on Shulk.=)

Out of curiosity what is PK's opinion on shulk?

 

[FallofBrawl]

Some character archtypes and who I think fits under each one.

Rushdown:

Mix-Up (characters that revolve around one/two moves that are really versatile to approach):

Turtle:

Grappler:

Gimper (I guess only archtype applicable to smash/well known for edgeguarding deep):

Zoner/Fencer:

All-Around:

Dynamic (have stances or charges that completely change their movement/style):

Scrambler/Trapper (fighters who work quick to limiting options in neutral/forcing awkward situations) :

 

[meleebrawler]

Some character archtypes and who I think fits under each one.

Rushdown:

Mix-Up (characters that revolve around one/two moves that are really versatile to approach):

Turtle:

Grappler:

Gimper (I guess only archtype applicable to smash/well known for edgeguarding deep):

Zoner/Fencer:

All-Around:

Dynamic (have stances or charges that completely change their movement/style):

Scrambler/Trapper (fighters who work quick to limiting options in neutral/forcing awkward situations) :

Yoshi eggs and air mobility are good enough for camping that I don't think he's pure rushdown.

Roy and Little Mac are too vulnerable to risk waiting for attacks. They aggressively space their opponent to lay on the pressure instead.

Samus's projectiles aren't good for camping on their own, she's more of an all-rounder.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Lmao
9B was a dedicated Shulk player up until Ryu was released.
He's also one of the top 5 brawl players in the world, and gets really good results with Ryu now, so there's no doubting his skill.
Yet when he mained shulk his results were extremely mediocre.

His results with Ryu are actually pretty inconsistent and he did better with Shulk than with Rosalina. He's probably not a good example for a Shulk main.

 

[FullMoon]

Apparently Some might be dropping Greninja for Sheik

RIP Greninja's top level representation.

 

[wpwood]

As far as shulk is concerned, at this point in the metagame we know what makes a character relevant. He doesn't quite have the juice.

Define what makes a character viable in the current meta. Kill options? Combos? A decent recovery? Shulk has kill options and a kill throw. Shulk has combos. Shulk has a decent recovery given that he has a jump off stage and has time to switch to jump art, which isn't that hard. It's the dedication and the learning curve that he requires that makes him undesirable to most people. He's a hard character to learn, but a good character once learned.

Some character archtypes and who I think fits under each one.

Rushdown:

Mix-Up (characters that revolve around one/two moves that are really versatile to approach):

Turtle:

Grappler:

Gimper (I guess only archtype applicable to smash/well known for edgeguarding deep):

Zoner/Fencer:

All-Around:

Dynamic (have stances or charges that completely change their movement/style):

Scrambler/Trapper (fighters who work quick to limiting options in neutral/forcing awkward situations) :

I would add Palutena to the Turtle category. I don't see how MK can be an All-Around fighter if his main game plan is doing up air to up b and doesn't have much of anything else going for him except maybe gimping. Given how easy Gordos are to hit back I don't really see the Trapper category being DDD's strongest category. Lil Mac isn't a turtle given his safe and fast ground game and need to get in and get out quickly. I think turtle is a little too broad of a term for the characters in that category, but I can't think of a term that would fit all those characters unless you broke it up into different groups.
EDIT: Yoshi as rushdown? Ike as Grappler?

 

[FallofBrawl]

I would add Palutena to the Turtle category. I don't see how MK can be an All-Around fighter if his main game plan is doing up air to up b and doesn't have much of anything else going for him except maybe gimping. Given how easy Gordos are to hit back I don't really see the Trapper category being DDD's strongest category. Lil Mac isn't a turtle given his safe and fast ground game and need to get in and get out quickly. I think turtle is a little too broad of a term for the characters in that category, but I can't think of a term that would fit all those characters unless you broke it up into different groups.
EDIT: Yoshi as rushdown? Ike as Grappler?

Sorry it was 5 am at my end, forgot Palu was a character.

MK's main gameplan are those 2 moves, but he simply cannot limit himself to that, Aba is the only MK that has the ability to skip over and a lot of MK moves and just work with dtilt, uptilt, dash attack, up air and up b. Other than him, the rest of his moves are all quite solid to not be considered an all-rounder, easy confirms yes, but past that percent threshold he becomes a character that utilizes all his moves.

I put D3 there for his ledge traps/setups, his gordos are bad in neutral but godsend when the opponent is trying to recover,forcing his opponents in a scramble situation at ledge.

I always thought the best Little Mac was a Mac that mostly walks towards opponents and hold centre stage by throwing out relatively safe moves. Which fits under a turtle gamestyle. His speed is great for burst punishing, but it can screw him over if he uses it in neutral (may give up stage control).

In general turtle just means someone who can lay back and throw out safe moves from a comfortable distance to fluster opponents, cause them to make a mistake, then punish accordingly. There are sub-groups and all but this is what I got in general.

Yoshi I was sure to either be an all rounder or rushdown, his zoning capabilities aren't that great despite having eggs, I more often see eggs as a ledge trap than something thrown out in general. I dont see why he won't be a rushdown character either, great safe aerial disjoints that can beat airdodges, move that beats shield, moves that break shield, good aerial weaving and speed to cover rolls. If Yoshi makes the right read he will get his opponent everytime.

Ike gets most of his damage racking from his throw combos, that + solid kill throw confirms make him a solid half-grappler + aerial zoner (I just threw him under grappler though)

Those are just my opinions though.

 

[Wintropy]

Define what makes a character viable in the current meta. Kill options? Combos? A decent recovery? Shulk has kill options and a kill throw. Shulk has combos. Shulk has a decent recovery given that he has a jump off stage and has time to switch to jump art, which isn't that hard. It's the dedication and the learning curve that he requires that makes him undesirable to most people. He's a hard character to learn, but a good character once learned.

This is correct, but it's also offset by how well he can use these moves in context. There isn't an objective set of criteria to determine how good a character is, it really comes down to how good their fundamentals are and how effective these options are in practice.

Every character has kill options. Every character has combos. The vast majority of characters have a decent recovery. And, while not enough to make a definitive statement on it, a number of characters have a kill throw. Tell us why they're good and how they can use them. Having good options in theory / a vacuum doesn't cut it. They have to translate into a practical gameplan, and unfortunately, I don't think Shulk has enough effective, practical options to be a real threat.

We need to consider the broader scheme of things if we're to determine that Shulk is in any way viable: can he pressure well or defend his space to the extent that others can? What kind of options does he have for resetting to neutral? How does he edgeguard or react to being edgeguarded? What kind of matchups spread does he have - does he beat or get beaten by anybody relevant, and to what extent?

Trust me, I'm a big fan of Shulk and I definitely think he has untapped potential, but I agree equally with what's been said: having untapped potential or good options in theory doesn't make him a good character. He's far from the worst, in my opinion, because he can do some cool things (MALLC is a very useful tech and embellishes the options he does have) and there are a few players putting the work in at high level (granted, the only ones that come to mind are Jerm and Artryuu, but some results are better than no results), but we've got to be realistic here. What does Shulk do that others can't, and why does this make him relevant?

EDIT: Typos.

 

[Spinosaurus]

An optimal Falcon is by far a more passive one than rushdown imo.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

An optimal Falcon runs away kind of a lot.

Apparently Some might be dropping Greninja for Sheik

RIP Greninja's top level representation.

Well I mean Greninja is basically just a Sheik with - *gets shot*

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

I find harder than while playing as . I remember @RayNoire saying a while ago that and take the glass out of glass cannon, but they still hard to fight.

Yeah, Charizard is definitely a harder MU for M2 than Sheik is, honestly; Charizard's options can shut down Mewtwo's pretty badly, and Charizard is also a lot harder for M2 to kill than M2 is for Charizard, especially in customs. Flamethrower's clashing ability makes it a pain in the arse for Mewtwo to get in projectile damage, and the armor on Flare Blitz is not kind to M2's flaws.

M2 is a decent character, but Charizard's also decent and can play havoc on M2 because of his weight. If M2 was a heavyweight, the matchup would be a lot closer. Charizard is just better at what he does than M2 is, honestly. It'd be like giving the same speed and mobility as ; sure, the Falcon's a lot flashier, but Ganondorf overall is a better character because he's so much more powerful.

 

[Yikarur]

Yoshi is only a rushdown character in mid to low-high level play. In high to top level play he is a defensive mid-range fortress with a lot of mobility and a huge hit reward. The fallacy that he is a rushdown character probably comes from his damage output once he gets a good hit but rushdown is not his primary strategy even so it might look like it.

 

[L9999]

Some character archtypes and who I think fits under each one.

Rushdown:

Mix-Up (characters that revolve around one/two moves that are really versatile to approach):

Turtle:

Grappler:

Gimper (I guess only archtype applicable to smash/well known for edgeguarding deep):

Zoner/Fencer:

All-Around:

Dynamic (have stances or charges that completely change their movement/style):

Scrambler/Trapper (fighters who work quick to limiting options in neutral/forcing awkward situations) :

So Ike is in grappler by the logic that his biggest damage outputs and combos come from his grab. So why is Ness in zoner/fencer and not in grappler? PK Thunder and PK Fire are too slow to be thrown out to keep away people (which is not their purpose in the first place) and Ness doesn't have raw range like Charizard and swordfighters to keep away people. Anyways, an opinion.

 

[Jamurai]

If we're taking this semi-seriously I feel like there's an important category missing: bait and punish. That is entirely what Meta Knight is about, along with other characters like G&W.

Fox is also more of a bait and punish character, despite most pinning him as rushdown just cause he's fast and can pressure well. MK can do this too but he isn't rushdown.

Although to be honest it's difficult slotting every character into a set of archetypes, most of them are a mix anyway.

 

[Y2Kay]

Apparently Some might be dropping Greninja for Sheik

RIP Greninja's top level representation.

This is literally the worst smash news I've heard since Vinne chose to quit

Don't fail us now, istudying!

Well I mean Greninja is basically just a Sheik with - *gets shot*

I wonder who pulled the trigger?


Hides the gun

 

[ZcK]

No he doesn't have the best mobility specs in the game. He temporarily has the best mobility specs in the game for 13 seconds. Which doesn't cut it. If we breakdown the math he's not in those states for very long. That's of course assuming you play in the increased mobility states and ignore the monado lag cancel gimmick. It's not as though people are ignorant of Shulk. We're fully aware of his stuff and it's rather underwhelming and really not worth it in the end.

Shulk is a failure as a character.

Thanks for proving what I said on my first paragraph
He has 2 mobility arts and they last for 15 seconds each and they have 10 seconds of cooldown. Do the math now.
I dont understand how he is failure when as a character he does what he is supposed to. It is the engine of the game the one not helping him. As a rough example imagine him in melee (please dont discuss this scenario)

 

[C0rvus]

I think I've come to enjoy the new Bowser. He plays like a more fully realized grappler. People are afraid to get grabbed by him, which is exactly what you need to be a grappler. I feel like I'm playing Zangeif when I'm playing Bowser, hell, their walk animations are pretty similar. So he's a bit linear and still has all his weaknesses. That just means I don't have to work as hard on mixups.

 

[FallofBrawl]

Yoshi is only a rushdown character in mid to low-high level play. In high to top level play he is a defensive mid-range fortress with a lot of mobility and a huge hit reward. The fallacy that he is a rushdown character probably comes from his damage output once he gets a good hit but rushdown is not his primary strategy even so it might look like it.

Looks like we need more high-level yoshis.

So Ike is in grappler by the logic that his biggest damage outputs and combos come from his grab. So why is Ness in zoner/fencer and not in grappler? PK Thunder and PK Fire are too slow to be thrown out to keep away people (which is not their purpose in the first place) and Ness doesn't have raw range like Charizard and swordfighters to keep away people. Anyways, an opinion.

Ness grab reward ends way sooner than Ike's in terms of followups. People confuse zoner as someone who is just strictly projectiles character, this is not true. A zoner is someone who, well, keeps the opponent out of his zone for safe damage through one of two ways: big disjointed hitboxes that reach out beyond their hurtbox or projectiles. Ness is a huge culprit of the former (fair, bair, DA, uair, yoyos), while pk fire isnt used for zoning, pk thunder definitely helps Ness rack up safe damage when his opponent is offstage or above him, this essentially falls under zoning.

If we're taking this semi-seriously I feel like there's an important category missing: bait and punish. That is entirely what Meta Knight is about, along with other characters like G&W.

Fox is also more of a bait and punish character, despite most pinning him as rushdown just cause he's fast and can pressure well. MK can do this too but he isn't rushdown.

Although to be honest it's difficult slotting every character into a set of archetypes, most of them are a mix anyway.

I never take bait and punish seriously anymore as its own category, it falls under so many of the other ones. Rushdown characters bait airdodges and shield drop, turtle characters bait mindless rushing, mixup characters bait whatever they want depending on their opponents reactions. Bait and punish is too universal in this game to really be it's own, exclusive thing.

 

[Jams.]

His results with Ryu are actually pretty inconsistent and he did better with Shulk than with Rosalina. He's probably not a good example for a Shulk main.

I don't think he's much less consistent than most Japanese top players, if you look at who he loses to. Only a handful of top Japanese players don't have questionable losses considering the depth of the talent pool in Japan. Players like Earth (vs YOC), Edge (vs OCEAN), and Choco (vs Kamemushi) all have had losses versus lower ranked players which have resulted in substandard placings; even Ranai had a loss to Sakasaka at Umebura FAT. This is considering post Umebura FAT 9B, I don't think his results were all that great before that event.

 

[LancerStaff]

Well that's cool and all but I think it is. I'm aware Pit's neutral is very good but MK is not far behind, he has a lot more options than people give credit for. I can't comment on Upperdash Arm since I am admittedly inexperienced in the matchup (I find it hard to believe it's a foolproof ledge-snapping option though). However I can say that catching Pit's Up-B should be pretty simple given that we have a long lasting Nair we can cover the ledge with, and excellent vertical coverage with SH/FH Uair and also our own Up-B in case you shoot past the ledge instead. You could Up-B straight at us, but taking 10% every time you recover isn't exactly ideal... For the record MK has no true spikes but Dair has a nasty semi-spike angle.

This is all theory anyways, we could debate about situations like this for days. I know I am among other MKs when I say I think we beat Pit, and that's all I can say after giving my reasons above. Fact is there are no high-level sets to analyse so hey ho.

Out of interest though: is side-B a practically unpunishable ledge-grabbing option? The super armour frames aren't long-lasting, I thought anyway. Also if you could explain why Up-B isn't a free punish when the opponent is prepared for it that'd be interesting too.

There's a lot more a Pit can do then just fly straight at the ledge with up B. First thing is that you can either go "high," aka straight for the ledge, or go low and climb up the wall with it. MK I don't believe can cover both options without like Mach Tornado or something, and doubt he'd want to. You can't react to what angle he uses, only react to him using it. Pit's giant ledge grab during the move helps too. (Which may or may not be the same reason he can't grab the ledge behind him during the move...)

Next big thing is, if he has any jumps, you have no way of knowing if he's going to either jump or Uspecial. Again, you can't just react accordingly. If you overextend, well this is MK so he can "keep playing the game" so to speak but it doesn't get him much to jump off early. If another character were to of jumped off, however, he could wait for them to make their way back to the stage and ledge snap for free. Underextend as any character and he's ledge snapped.

Pit actually has a ton of options to returning to the stage with Uspecial, although Earth's still kinda clowning around and being obvious with how he recovers...

Upperdash is pretty hard to challenge. If Pit's using it high, he'll armor through most things and likely hit you back, and pretty much gets back from there. Doesn't snap until the end of the move so there's some vulnerability but since he's recovering high he shouldn't be getting the two frame ledge vulnerability either. Best bet would probably be to jump over and attack from behind. Uses it low and it snaps during the armor. Not entirely sure if it's low enough for the two frame window to happen... I've seen people hit out of the tail end of the move, (momentum yadda yadda yadda) but not necessarily while grabbing the ledge. Really ought to look at that...

Basically there's enough complications to where it's impossible to catch his recovery every single time.

 

[Djent]

I don't think he's much less consistent than most Japanese top players, if you look at who he loses to. Only a handful of top Japanese players don't have questionable losses considering the depth of the talent pool in Japan. Players like Earth (vs YOC), Edge (vs OCEAN), and Choco (vs Kamemushi) all have had losses versus lower ranked players which have resulted in substandard placings; even Ranai had a loss to Sakasaka at Umebura FAT. This is considering post Umebura FAT 9B, I don't think his results were all that great before that event.

He has more "bad" losses than the others you mentioned, though. At least with Ryu he has notable wins; I hardly remember him beating anyone good with Shulk.

 

[S_B]

Do you not see my Cloud avatar and Ryu banner?

On this note, does Smashboards load signatures sporadically for anyone else?

Sometimes I'll see them, other times not, with no apparent reason.

About Rosa Vs Shulk. Dabuz played a Shulk named DragonBrain on anthers (If you play anter you know who Dragonbrain is lol) I know its not Offline but its better than nothing.

http://www.twitch.tv/dabuz18/v/33748678 Starts at 5:17:00

I hate to be "that guy", but you could actually use matchup inexperience as a reason for Dabuz not knowing how to handle Shulk (also, it was a laggy match).

I don't think Shulk has some untapped hidden potential to him. Even if you're using the BEST monado for each situation in every situation, you're still working 2-3X as hard for what will realistically be a fraction of the results you'll get from another character, especially a top tier.

 

[wpwood]

A zoner is someone who, well, keeps the opponent out of his zone for safe damage through one of two ways: big disjointed hitboxes that reach out beyond their hurtbox or projectiles. Ness is a huge culprit of the former (fair, bair, DA, uair, yoyos), while pk fire isnt used for zoning, pk thunder definitely helps Ness rack up safe damage when his opponent is offstage or above him, this essentially falls under zoning.

By that definition of zoner Palutena fits that definition pretty well. All moves involving her staff is separate from her hurt box. Most of her aerials are disjointed or long lasting. The problem is Palutena is more of a turtler. That definition of zoner to me seems to closely align with game plan of a turtler. Using PK thunder while the opponent is off stage would be more of an edge guard / gimp than zoning. Ness's grab is a center of his game and saying he is not a grappler is (IMO) wrong.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

On this note, does Smashboards load signatures sporadically for anyone else?

Sometimes I'll see them, other times not, with no apparent reason.

IIRC you can manually choose whether or not a given post has your signature included.

On topic, regarding categorization of fighters e.g. "rushdown" "zoning" "mixup" "bait and punish" etc., are there any characters that actually fit neatly into boxes like that?