Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Nu~]

That Sinji match at Ktar pained me.

Why was he trying to camp Angel out? As soon as angel found out that sinji's fortress was made of Papier-mâché, he counter camped him and got easy banana KOs when ever he wanted.

The worst part is that people are going to continue believing that matches like Dabuz vs abadango are the standard for an optimal pacman...

 

[outfoxd]

That Sinji match at Ktar pained me.

Why was he trying to camp Angel out? As soon as angel found out that sinji's fortress was made of Papier-mâché, he counter camped him and got easy banana KOs when ever he wanted.

The worst part is that people are going to continue believing that matches like Dabuz vs abadango are the standard for an optimal pacman...

Because projectiles=camping. Remember?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Reread what you posted

"Solo-maiming (auto correctionlol) a character provides so many benefits (bolded). it's ridiculous."

Um, saying something that's solo mained provides a lot of benefits could mean anything, especially if we're talking about a character and not irl (solo-main could mean only choosing a specific brand or model). I see nothing wrong here, but let's not go further off-topic (PM me if needed).

 

[R3D3MON]

And since you mentioned in your GnW post, another issue to adress are the ******** sourspots that do jack. Those that make you think why they even exist. Ness' D-Smash has a stupid sourpot that gets him punished for attempting to use it, GnW's smashes are all janky with their sourpots, Zelda is a broken mess of ******** sourspots, and DDD has a non-sensical sourspot in his USmash that makes his killing inconsistency bigger, not to mention it also has a broken hitbox-animation relation as well....

I know it's hard to fix EVERY hitbox problem, and one can get used to space with janky hitboxes but it is obnoxious.

Yeah I agree completely. Actually Nintendo should have done this with every character from the start. It is commonly known that many attack animations don't properly match hitboxes of the attacks in general, which is a unique Smash 4 problem that was not a significant issue in past games. One character that suffered big time from this was meta knight, as mentioned before. Right now I think one of the best way to "buff" low tier characters is to properly fix their hitbox placements on certain attacks that either a) don't match the animation well, b) don't have proper autolink angles, making the move easy to fall out of (depending character attributes) or 3) fixing the unbalance between sourspot and sweetspot (in terms of both power and hitbox placement). A character that suffers pretty hard from hitbox issues is samus. Samus actually has a pretty good boxing and mid-range zoning game with good combo ability and possibly the best shield-break setups from the ledge, as mentioned before in this thread. However daddy sakurai has yet to properly fix the autolink angles on both fair and up smash, which makes it pretty easy to fall out of at low-mid percents. Since fair is one of samus's main combo tool, and up smash isone of samus's OOS option, these issues are rather significant for the character.

In addition to hitbox issues, nintendo should look to fixing certain problems related to special moves with specific characters. For example Dr. Mario has issues with his down-b: usually, mashing down-b immediately after double jumping in the air makes it go very far vertically and horizontally. However, sometimes the full possible height from the DJ>down-b mash cannot be gained, and Dr. mario just falls down, even while mashing b. As far as I know, this issue is random, and boss had mentioned this issue several times. The down-b issue is pretty terrible for Dr. Mario since it makes his already-abysmal recovery even worse, at completely random times during the match.

I think Sakurai/Nintendo should look toward investing a good amount of time just going over character moveset and testing how their attacks/specials interact with different characters or how the attacks/specials work in general, because right now there are a lot of characters that just need some hot fixes with their moveset, not actual buffs, to make the character better (often times significantly).

 

[Charoite]

They are still finishing the DLC, and is too much work for too little time, sakurai probably is starting to work in a new project soon so i expect the balances to end or at very least slow during may or march if there are no others DLC characters aside from and.

 

[C0rvus]

I'm really finding out solo maiming a character provides so many benefits. It's ridiculous.

Wish I knew. I'm the type who gets bored/starts doubting his decisions easily. If I don't play 2 characters I don't know how I'd deal.

Like, I beat a bunch of players at KTAR with Bowser but I don't think I want to keep playing him. How does my brain work.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I regret not going to KTAR. My boy Venom beat Tweek in pools. Ryu vs Cloud/Bowser Jr.

Year of the Dragon baby.

 

[A10theHero]

I disagree with Mr.R, but w/e.

I dont see how he loses to Pika for example when Pika's only option is to run.

Could you explain this last point some more, please? In what situation is Pikachu only able to run?

ESAM lost to flippin DJ Jack.

Come on now.

I do want to point out that ESAM also 2-0'd Trela at TBH5.

 

[Djent]

I once thought Fox beat Pika, but now I'm convinced Larry just has ESAM's number.

Pika-Fox is still a miserably volatile match though.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Could you explain this last point some more, please? In what situation is Pikachu only able to run?


I do want to point out that ESAM also 2-0'd Trela at TBH5.

Can you explain when it's actually a GOOD idea for Pika to challenge Ryu in neutral?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Wish I knew. I'm the type who gets bored/starts doubting his decisions easily. If I don't play 2 characters I don't know how I'd deal.

Like, I beat a bunch of players at KTAR with Bowser but I don't think I want to keep playing him. How does my brain work.

Just choose a character Thats versatile and expressive. That's what I did. That tends to be characters that are technical.

 

[Thinkaman]

I've been really busy lately; the little Smashboards time I've had has sadly be devoted to mod duties rather than posting dank may-mays, as the kids say.

On the subject of Jigglypuff, I'm still unconvinced that manipulating aerial timings would be the best solution. Normally it's hard to buff a weak character while avoiding removing their weaknesses, so in cases where increasing their existing advantages works, easy money.

I'm pretty confident Jigglypuff is in this camp regarding aerial mobility. If you take her best-in-game overall aerial mobility and turn it up even modestly, aerial chains start to become a magnitude more consistent and her problems with away rolls start to fade. SHAD gets stronger, and her recovery speed improves.

If you pointed a gun at me and told me to change an aerial's timing, I'd shave a frame or two off bair FAF to make the chain that much more consistent, but that's it. I'd prefer not to (as I don't want Jiggs to devolve into aerial -> Rest in certain matchups), but I'd do that before making the move faster, so that Jigglypuff's design stays firmly focused on outspacing the opponent.

I could see an argument for lowering her f6 jumpsquat, but I actually think it's okay. What would be more interesting is lowering her hard landing lag to 3f, the lowest in the game. This would make landing into defensive options or a grab that much more viable, and would be simultaneously elegant, fitting, and unique.

Though everything else aside it goes without saying that aerial Rollout needs to be fixed. *cries forever*

 

[C0rvus]

Just choose a character Thats versatile and expressive. That's what I did. That tends to be characters that are technical.

That's a solid idea. My current batch () are both very straight forward, almost opposites of each other. I figured I could keep things interesting and switch characters to suit my currently desired playstyle. Are you solo maining Doctor Mario? What characters do people think fit the mold of versatile and expressive?

In Melee, many of the top characters could be played a variety of ways. I often hear commentators remark on how one player's Fox is different than another's. Is it just Melee's engine? Like, look at Zanguzen's Falco versus Westballz's Falco. Like night and day.

 

[Game7a1]

Though everything else aside it goes without saying that aerial Rollout needs to be fixed. *cries forever*

Define "needs to be fixed". If you mean as to why Puff can't move after hitting someone with aerial rollout, there's an odd reason behind it, but the ability to weave in and out after landing aerial rollout is possible in the game.

 

[Emblem Lord]

L cancelling and the mobility options opened up many ways to play many characters.

 

[Aaron1997]

A Samus player just took a Game off of Zeros Sheik WTF

 

[Thinkaman]

Aerial Rollout should pass through shields (after hitting them) rather than bounce off like it's Flare Blitz. Jigglypuff should be able to regain action after landing aerial Rollout, even if it's after 180+ frames. There's no justifiable design motivation to have Jigglypuff die for landing Rollout offstage.

 

[Mario766]

Aerial Rollout should pass through shields (after hitting them) rather than bounce off like it's Flare Blitz. Jigglypuff should be able to regain action after landing aerial Rollout, even if it's after 180+ frames. There's no justifiable design motivation to have Jigglypuff die for landing Rollout offstage.

Now you know how Ike felt back in Brawl

but instead of landing the move

You just had to air dodge in his general vicinity.

That Samus actually could have won if he got a few reads and didn't make a really bad decision at the end.

 

[Thinkaman]

Now you know how Ike felt back in Brawl

but instead of landing the move

You just had to air dodge in his general vicinity.

If I ever made a Brawl mod, I'd fix that.

 

[Game7a1]

Aerial Rollout should pass through shields (after hitting them) rather than bounce off like it's Flare Blitz. Jigglypuff should be able to regain action after landing aerial Rollout, even if it's after 180+ frames. There's no justifiable design motivation to have Jigglypuff die for landing Rollout offstage.

Well, there's Relentless Rollout, so...

 

[Mario766]

If I ever made a Brawl mod, I'd fix that.

Smash 4 got you covered already.

 

[Thinkaman]

Smash 4 got you covered already.

The joke is that this is one of the first things that me and AA did, and some complained it was too radical of a change and the developers would never have done it.

(To their credit, when I did something similar for Fox and Falco side-b, I thought "This is better for the game, but there's no WAY they'd do it.")

 

[Mario766]

The joke is that this is one of the first things that me and AA did, and some complained it was too radical of a change and the developers would never have done it.

(To their credit, when I did something similar for Fox and Falco side-b, I thought "This is better for the game, but there's no WAY they'd do it.")

Why would they think that should be too much

Why should a character get punished for using a move and hit the opponent when it can't go through them, ala Fox/Falco before Smash 4.

Even worse, why should he die for being air dodged around.

It was a stupid design idea

kinda like ALL of Brawl really.

 

[Wintropy]

That's a solid idea. My current batch () are both very straight forward, almost opposites of each other. I figured I could keep things interesting and switch characters to suit my currently desired playstyle. Are you solo maining Doctor Mario? What characters do people think fit the mold of versatile and expressive?

I just decided to play my favourite character from my favourite game. The fact that his playstyle suits me and he's a good character helps.

It's not as easy as that for everybody, but if you're fond of the character and are comfortable with how they play, you've got a good foundation to build on.

Re: Ryu, I think Mr R is overstating what it takes to be a good character. Even Top 10 characters have bad matchups with other top-tiers.

 

[Vyrnx]

Pretty sure Johnny Westside beat Mr CC earlier with Samus as well.

 

[Mario766]

A samus beating a Luigi

Never seen it done before.

Nope.

 

[Thinkaman]

Public perception of the quality of something is based almost exclusively on memetic qualities rather than any objective measure.

When Vista came out, everyone agreed that it sucked, though no one could really articulate why. Microsoft did a series of blind taste-tests, where they gave consumers exclusive access to a test a new version of Windows that was still just Vista, and they overwhelmingly loved it. Thus, Microsoft prioritized a few superficial changes and rushed out Windows 7, which really is 99% Vista.

Smash 4 is really just a re-release of Brawl, on new platforms with new content and iterated balance. It really is. It's 99% the same, and while I believe that 1% is a big difference and makes the game a lot better (ledge mechanics, air dodge landing lag, custom moves), let's not have any delusions.

Aside: Public perceptions of balance is an especially representative sub-case, particularly when it comes to overall distribution. The games people consider most or least balanced is based more on social phenomena rather than any sort of data.

But anyway, let's talk about Samus.

 

[Das Koopa]

Smash 4 got you covered already.

I like to call Smash 4 Brawl if Brawl wasn't a disaster

 

[PGH_Chrispy]

Should we really be spending most of the time in a competitive impressions thread discussing potential buffs? Don't get me wrong, I think it's really insightful discussion, but talking about how we can make Jigglypuff's specials usable doesn't really reflect the status of the metagame and barely touches on what we'll likely see of Jigglypuff in the future. Nay, we should be focusing on what tools and playstyles are available to the characters and how that affects their current matchups - which characters have an easy answer for Sheik fair, what matchups Zelda's ff lightning kick is usable in, whether Jigglypuff can be a viable threat or counterpick.

On topic with Samus, she's an interesting case. Esam was able to use her as an effective counterpick against Luigi when his pikachu wasn't cutting it, but she suffers from high commitment options for starting combos, specifically dash attack and tether grab. Falling uair has it's problems too, since it's super unsafe on block, miss, or even reaction.

 

[Sonicninja115]

So... 2GG... Jonny took a game off of ZeRo, the other two weren't exactly blowouts either.

And Esam vs. Falln was a great set.

 

[Das Koopa]

My impression of Samus is that she has a high skill cap with a low reward so people underrate her. She's not really good outside of a CP to Weegee as far as I can tell, but I don't think she's a bottom 5. Dedede, Ganon, Jiggs, Zelda, Mac, and Duck Hunt are all worse at least imo.

 

[Yikarur]

There was a german national today.
http://challonge.com/scmsingles

1. Luigi_player
2. cyve
3. Sodrek :4Fox: :4Cloud:
4. Eddy
5. Long0uw , vyQ
7. cyfersquad , Light

about 110 entrants.

Streamarchive to Top8 http://www.twitch.tv/circlelevels/v/34495557?t=2h49m30s

 

[Mario766]

There's...more than just that to the differences from Brawl.

Movement was upped, unless your name is Robin most characters are, or at least feel faster. Run speeds are a lot better, and removing Tripping helps the game a ton because people don't have that random chance of running into a guaranteed fall animation that leads to a free punish.

A lot of balance changes was made, some good and some bad. Talking release Smash 4 here, we had a gutted MK and an overly buffed Diddy. They wanted Diddy to have more because of the removal of the 2nd Banana in play, but it was clearly too much while MK had hitbox issues.

Changes to Dash/Fall speed/Fast Fall speed make the game a lot faster and feels better, it doesn't have that sluggish feel from Brawl that everyone complained about, even if the beginning of Smash 4 was heavily defensive, it was still faster than Brawl at it's highest.

I never want to go back to Brawl, if it means anything. I hated the game. /done

 

[Das Koopa]

There was a german national today.
http://challonge.com/scmsingles

1. Luigi_player
2. cyve
3. Sodrek :4Fox: :4Cloud:
4. Eddy
5. Long0uw , vyQ
7. cyfersquad , Light

about 110 entrants.

Streamarchive to Top8 http://www.twitch.tv/circlelevels/v/34495557?t=2h49m30s

Thanks, will add this stuff to the list

-Second Yoshi Nat top 8
-First R.O.B top 8 in a National that I'm aware of.
-First Greninja Top 8 in a National that I'm aware of.

 

[LancerStaff]

Should we really be spending most of the time in a competitive impressions thread discussing potential buffs? Don't get me wrong, I think it's really insightful discussion, but talking about how we can make Jigglypuff's specials usable doesn't really reflect the status of the metagame and barely touches on what we'll likely see of Jigglypuff in the future. Nay, we should be focusing on what tools and playstyles are available to the characters and how that affects their current matchups - which characters have an easy answer for Sheik fair, what matchups Zelda's ff lightning kick is usable in, whether Jigglypuff can be a viable threat or counterpick.

People wanna talk patches and buffs because we really only have one chance left to give characters hoo haas and the like. (I mean, we're probably getting two more patches but the last patch just isn't going to do anything radical.)

 

[Baby_Sneak]

That's a solid idea. My current batch () are both very straight forward, almost opposites of each other. I figured I could keep things interesting and switch characters to suit my currently desired playstyle. Are you solo maining Doctor Mario? What characters do people think fit the mold of versatile and expressive?

In Melee, many of the top characters could be played a variety of ways. I often hear commentators remark on how one player's Fox is different than another's. Is it just Melee's engine? Like, look at Zanguzen's Falco versus Westballz's Falco. Like night and day.

most likely.

And a character that's not straightforward or a character that you personally won't recommend to beginners. Personally, here's how I go about this (analogy time woo!):

I like to compare choosing a character to picking a saxophone model.
Easy to play are student models. Easy to learn the fundamentals of the instrument (character/game), but generally lacks the higher end options a professional model has (complex characters ala robin and rosa). Now, there are some student models that basically sound just as good as professional models (fox and diddy), but generally, you'll want a professional model (sheik, rosa, sonic and Ryu) despite the price (learning curve).

 

[Charoite]

What are people opinions on vs, i ask because dabu won convincingly vs Venom ryu, i think the MU is mostly but very volatile, because how ryu can kill Luma and rosa very fast, but rosa can edgeguard ryu with luma and her disjoints. thoughts?

 

[ILOVESMASH]

May just be me, but I'm under the opinion that a large amount of the mechanical changes from brawl make the game less fun to play. The new airdodging mechanics in particular really annoy me since it allows the opponent to recover and escape juggles for free. The new ledge, rolling, and shield mechanics also make the game less enjoyable in my opinion.

 

[Wintermelon43]

May just be me, but I'm under the opinion that a large amount of the mechanical changes from brawl make the game less fun to play. The new airdodging mechanics in particular really annoy me since it allows the opponent to recover and escape juggles for free. The new ledge, rolling, and shield mechanics also make the game less enjoyable in my opinion.

Since I know this will get off topic, let's get back on topic.

 

[Vyrnx]

MK Samus is a joke. I don't see many MUs in this game being as bad, maybe one or two.

Samus is low tier for any doubters. I think Trifroze understands the character well. It's funny when people say that she has a bunch of bad moves, and funnier when people say all her moves are bad. Samus has a legitimately good moveset. All of her aerials, tilts, jab, screw attack and CS are some of the best of their type. Her grab sucks, and that is limiting. But her (few) "bad" moves other than grab aren't really things that limit her when you look at her moves in context. Grab, you have to use, so having a bad grab is bad. Dsmash isn't important, so having a bad dsmash isn't so bad. Samus can always opt to use her good moves instead of bad, except in the case of grab.

Samus has trouble landing, not as severe as some people make it out to be, but bad enough. And small, fast characters are nearly impossible, so Pika and MK are just... Such utter jokes for her... I think it's easy to look at Samus and say she is bad, because you won't immediately see her great spacing, or what she gets from shad and falling uair combos. I also think after putting in some time with her it is easy to say she is better than she is, because her moveset is good. But in reality it just makes her an interesting character, not a good one. And lol at people who say Samus is bottom five. There are so many more candidates that would fall there first.