Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Emblem Lord]

So alot of people have been wondering if Bowser is the new "Grappler of Smash" instead of DK?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

So alot of people have been wondering if Bowser is the new "Grappler of Smash" instead of DK?

Why not both? Both have been getting generous gifts with buffs after all

 

[TTTTTsd]

So alot of people have been wondering if Bowser is the new "Grappler of Smash" instead of DK?

Actually, since people are interested, I have devised a comparison based on Super Turbo and SF3 (well, contemporary SF in general)

Bowser = Zangief
DK = T. Hawk
Ganondorf = Hugo

Bowser being Zangief is simple. Solid mid range footsies, but lacks a very strong reversal. Long range is sorta weird, but he excels at footsies and confirming into very high damage off of grabs. Fits the Gief archetype like a glove, very beautifully at that. This includes devastating you on wakeup/advantage because when Gief is in, he's in.

DK is T. Hawk as he has a more flowing neutral with differing pokes and effective ranges, and he also has a reversal in his Up+B (F3 intangibility). He additionally escapes disadvantage faster and like T. Hawk his grab game is devastating, but not to the effect of Zangief (The grab range parallel is also a thing here, SPD has always has more range than T. Hawk's command grab). He's the more "well-rounded" grappler, not as head-on as Bowser. (Note that DK is not OLD T. HAWK from ST, who is a beast.)

Ganondorf is Hugo because his neutral is easily the worst of the three, but the problem IMO is that his advantage isn't super solid like these two either. PS They should fix this because if Ganon had a better advantage state/better throw reward or SOMETHING, he'd be another sort of grappler, arguably the most devastating when in, but the hardest to get in with.

Note that these character comparisons have nothing to do with their tier position, nor do I think it speaks to where I place them viability wise. It's just if we're comparing them to grapplers, these examples come to mind (DDD is the only heavy I can't think of a comparison for. He's just weeeeirrd)

EDIT: I guess Dedede can be like Tager or one of those gimmicky grapplers that's either really bad or really good. I dunno, I'm out of ideas for him!

 

[Emblem Lord]

DK reminds me of Potemkin, what with the insanely good buttons and his ground pound reminds me of Earthquake.

Edit - I like that DK has a more flowing neutral. I hate that Bowser is less safe in general.

**** committing.

 

[Big-Cat]

One whiff? One whiff of what? Cloud isn't gonna give you openings because if he doesn't have limit break he's gonna be charging it via his unpunishable charge option, and if you try to punish him for it you're leaving yourself open for a counter.

Then you get up-aired and realize what a horrible mistake you just made. Bowser is NEVER hitting the ground in the MU once you're up, better just pray you can get to the ledge or something.

Bowser isn't high tier, with all his issues still a combo/kill option out of a throw doesn't change those facts. He's mid tier max.

Unpunishable? Yes, I know he can roll out of it. I take it you're forgetting PIVOT GRABS or just plain knowing how to read people. I really have to wonder how much are you talking out of just theory craft verses actual practice.

TTTTTsd
I like the Zangief comparison. One reason for me to seriously consider him alongside Karin for SFV.

Also, me asking if Bowser's high tier now because of my wins.

 

[Smog Frog]

what constitutes a reversal in smash? my understanding of reversals from sf games was something you did to get out of block pressure(whirling fortress is amazing at this)

 

[Big-Cat]

what constitutes a reversal in smash? my understanding of reversals from sf games was something you did to get out of block pressure(whirling fortress is amazing at this)

Reversals in Smash would just be OOS and anything from dodges I guess. So, I guess the usage of those over the generic reversal makes more sense in the context of strategy discussion.

 

[TTTTTsd]

DK reminds me of Potemkin, what with the insanely good buttons and his ground pound reminds me of Earthquake.

I'd never thought of that (not a Guilty Gear player myself), but that works as well. I just figured T. Hawk was a solid example as his pokes are AMAZING in ST (they really are, outside of the Cr.MP hitbox bug he has AMAZING buttons that are better than Gief's) so he was the first example that sprung to mind.

TTTTTsd
I like the Zangief comparison. One reason for me to seriously consider him alongside Karin for SFV.

It really does explain him best IMO. You have to box Bowser out with fireballs and good spacing and never let him in. Once you're on HIM he struggles, once he's on you, YOU (usually) struggle. It's pretty apt and it fits in rather well. DK never really reminded me of Gief in this game as he always seemed like he had strange utility within certain facets of his moveset. Bowser was the closest to Zangief before and now he actually IS Zangief, basically, especially considering he has a command grab (which in this case would be Gief's NORMAL throw as Bowser's mileage comes from his standard grab rather than the command one). Yes, even movement speed wise. Zangief did have a decent walk speed in ST IIRC, nothing amazing but hey!

Also Gief in SFV is bonkers so you'll probably like him. He has very strong options to wakeup anything and since death by chip damage (outside of supers) is gone you'll never have to worry about getting lamed out TOO hard. That was one of the grappler ninja-buffs of the game IMO, the minute I heard about this I thought "Man, that must be nice for Gief."

 

[Mario766]

Unpunishable? Yes, I know he can roll out of it. I take it you're forgetting PIVOT GRABS or just plain knowing how to read people. I really have to wonder how much are you talking out of just theory craft verses actual practice.

He can roll out of it?

I never noticed. /s

He can cancel it into any form of a shield option, or plain just drop it and attack. Talking both theory and practice...what would Bowser do on, say, Smashville, if Cloud is chilling on the platform charging LB.

Not very much. Cloud's gonna get free charge the entire set because Bowser has no safe way to challenge it without spooking the Cloud, even if Cloud didn't run around, he still has to get around super meaty, disjointed hitboxes and an amazing juggle game, with high damage. Bowser's high weight/gravity don't help him at all, like in almost every MU in this game.

I also like how you're talking pivot grabs, you're gonna pivot grab a Cloud who can literally pull out any option he wants?

Good luck.

 

[S_B]

See guys...yall be spittin hate at me for posting things without clarification...but NO ONE gets this thread bumping like EL when I post something wild.

Sorry, man. LightLV got like 30+ responses to one post, including a response by you.

 

[san.]

He can roll out of it?

I never noticed. /s

He can cancel it into any form of a shield option, or plain just drop it and attack. Talking both theory and practice...what would Bowser do on, say, Smashville, if Cloud is chilling on the platform charging LB.

Not very much. Cloud's gonna get free charge the entire set because Bowser has no safe way to challenge it without spooking the Cloud, even if Cloud didn't run around, he still has to get around super meaty, disjointed hitboxes and an amazing juggle game, with high damage. Bowser's high weight/gravity don't help him at all, like in almost every MU in this game.

I also like how you're talking pivot grabs, you're gonna pivot grab a Cloud who can literally pull out any option he wants?

Good luck.

Easy. Treat him as though he's just standing in neutral. No need to be unnecessarily baited by limit charge. He'll get some limit charge, but so what? Now he's on a platform above Bowser and needs to get back down.

Cloud's limit sideB kills Bowser pretty well at 100, but Bowser will kill Cloud from a grab at 80 (or even lower depending on how uthrow-> fair or bair works out).

 

[Emblem Lord]

Sorry, man. LightLV got like 30+ responses to one post, including a response by you.

See but its about CONSISTENTLY getting things going.

Pft. Light got it down once over me.

But dont sleep on me fam.

 

[Dagon97]

what constitutes a reversal in smash? my understanding of reversals from sf games was something you did to get out of block pressure(whirling fortress is amazing at this)

A reversal in smash or wrestling or fighting or fighting games means that a person in a bad position and their opponent in a good position. The player in the bad position can reverse what was just said and put themselves in an advantageous position and their opponent now in a poor position.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Easy. Treat him as though he's just standing in neutral. No need to be unnecessarily baited by limit charge. He'll get some limit charge, but so what? Now he's on a platform above Bowser and needs to get back down.

Normally I'd agree but since this is Smashville plat he can effectively reset to ledge or jump really high and land, or just platform drop out of Limit charge and Nair because you can actually buffer that out. It's a lot less feasible on a platform stage like BATTLEFIELD, perse (where option coverage is more static due to the platform not moving), but on Smashville it's particularly good.

You should never let Cloud on Smashville ever regardless of what character you are. Also while I won't say Bowser's platform pressure is bad, I imagine the only threatening things would be Uair, Utilt, or USmash if I'm at kill %.

 

[Ffamran]

Actually, since people are interested, I have devised a comparison based on Super Turbo and SF3 (well, contemporary SF in general)

Bowser = Zangief
DK = T. Hawk
Ganondorf = Hugo

Bowser being Zangief is simple. Solid mid range footsies, but lacks a very strong reversal. Long range is sorta weird, but he excels at footsies and confirming into very high damage off of grabs. Fits the Gief archetype like a glove, very beautifully at that. This includes devastating you on wakeup/advantage because when Gief is in, he's in.

DK is T. Hawk as he has a more flowing neutral with differing pokes and effective ranges, and he also has a reversal in his Up+B (F3 intangibility). He additionally escapes disadvantage faster and like T. Hawk his grab game is devastating, but not to the effect of Zangief (The grab range parallel is also a thing here, SPD has always has more range than T. Hawk's command grab). He's the more "well-rounded" grappler, not as head-on as Bowser. (Note that DK is not OLD T. HAWK from ST, who is a beast.)

Ganondorf is Hugo because his neutral is easily the worst of the three, but the problem IMO is that his advantage isn't super solid like these two either. PS They should fix this because if Ganon had a better advantage state/better throw reward or SOMETHING, he'd be another sort of grappler, arguably the most devastating when in, but the hardest to get in with.

Note that these character comparisons have nothing to do with their tier position, nor do I think it speaks to where I place them viability wise. It's just if we're comparing them to grapplers, these examples come to mind (DDD is the only heavy I can't think of a comparison for. He's just weeeeirrd)

EDIT: I guess Dedede can be like Tager or one of those gimmicky grapplers that's either really bad or really good. I dunno, I'm out of ideas for him!

Hmm... Then, from SF as whole, who would be El Feurte? Or Abel, Alex, maybe Laura even though she's pretty new, or R. Mika?

Wario could fit as El Feurte because he is a fast grappler, but wasn't El Feurte known for just having really fast and good buttons or something? Maybe Rosalina would be the El Feurte of Smash because she can press buttons, people can't counter them, they play stupid, and she wins. At the same time, they try to play her and the player instead of doing stupid stuff, but still get wrecked. Also, Dan would take a massive dump on Zelda. Obvious thing, but it needs to be said.

 

[Mario766]

Normally I'd agree but since this is Smashville plat he can effectively reset to ledge or jump really high and land, or just platform drop out of Limit charge and Nair because you can actually buffer that out. It's a lot less feasible on a platform stage like BATTLEFIELD, perse (where option coverage is more static due to the platform not moving), but on Smashville it's particularly good.

You should never let Cloud on Smashville ever regardless of what character you are. Also while I won't say Bowser's platform pressure is bad, I imagine the only threatening things would be Uair, Utilt, or USmash if I'm at kill %.

Smashville plat basically changes to every non-FD stage, because Bowser is still gonna have to get him to stop limit charging.

 

[Smog Frog]

is el fuerte, everybody ****ing hates him and he goes fast

 

[TTTTTsd]

Also to correct you san. Cloud dies at like 99% to Bowser U-Throw > Uair assuming Bowser has no rage and Cloud isn't using DI (he was in Limit Break when I tested so the % might be like, 1 or 2% lower as Limit break DOES increase his survivability by a little).

Pardon the semantics, do carry on haha. Just felt like clearing it up, he's a relatively heavy fastfaller.

 

[Nobie]

Mewtwo is either Akuma or Seth, perhaps more Seth.

Also, when it comes to Mewtwo vs. Cloud, I don't think the matchup is all that bad? I know other Mewtwos might disagree, but being able to outrange the sword in neutral, being able to edgeguard solidly, and having a good amount of kill power makes me think that it'll never be worse than a slight disadvantage.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Hmm... Then, from SF as whole, who would be El Feurte? Or Abel, Alex, maybe Laura even though she's pretty new, or R. Mika?

Wario could fit as El Feurte because he is a fast grappler, but wasn't El Feurte known for just having really fast and good buttons or something? Maybe Rosalina would be the El Feurte of Smash because she can press buttons, people can't counter them, they play stupid, and she wins. At the same time, they try to play her and the player instead of doing stupid stuff, but still get wrecked. Also, Dan would take a massive dump on Zelda. Obvious thing, but it needs to be said.

El Fuerte ignores the neutral completely and turns it into a guessing game. He takes the Street Fighter out of Street Fighter.

So, Sonic.

 

[S_B]

So alot of people have been wondering if Bowser is the new "Grappler of Smash" instead of DK?

The real distinction between them is that Bowser wants to stay grounded pretty much all the time while DK has superior aerial mobility and does most of his best work in the air. His throw followup game is notably better due to better aerial mobility as well.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Hmm... Then, from SF as whole, who would be El Feurte? Or Abel, Alex, maybe Laura even though she's pretty new, or R. Mika?

Wario could fit as El Feurte because he is a fast grappler, but wasn't El Feurte known for just having really fast and good buttons or something? Maybe Rosalina would be the El Feurte of Smash because she can press buttons, people can't counter them, they play stupid, and she wins. At the same time, they try to play her and the player instead of doing stupid stuff, but still get wrecked. Also, Dan would take a massive dump on Zelda. Obvious thing, but it needs to be said.

Sonic is by far the best pick

 

[san.]

Also to correct you san. Cloud dies at like 99% to Bowser U-Throw > Uair assuming Bowser has no rage and Cloud isn't using DI (he was in Limit Break when I tested so the % might be like, 1 or 2% lower as Limit break DOES increase his survivability by a little).

Pardon the semantics, do carry on haha. Just felt like clearing it up, he's a relatively heavy fastfaller.

Thanks. Yeah, I was mostly assuming average rage for most of that where both characters are the same %. Even then, I just guessed the % range based on when I usually score a stock. (Cloud is on the heavy + fast falling side).

Testing it now, it's more like a grab at 90%

 

[TTTTTsd]

Thanks. Yeah, I was mostly assuming average rage for most of that where both characters are the same %.

Yeah I also tested on Smashville so it might be earlier, but of course Rage complicates the formula haha.

Regardless they both kill each other pretty damn early for their respective weight classes (due to Limit and Throw stuff specifically)

 

[Big-Cat]

El Fuerte ignores the neutral completely and turns it into a guessing game. He takes the Street Fighter out of Street Fighter.

So, Sonic.

He still has to get that hit in to start the vortex, but this is still extremely accurate. I'd say Sheik is Seth.

Mewtwo is definitely the Akuma of this game now. The other characters mentioned are hard to find good comparisons to because Bowser, DK, and Ganondorf are the closest to our grapplers.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

El Fuerte ignores the neutral completely and turns it into a guessing game. He takes the Street Fighter out of Street Fighter.

but the answer to everything nowadays is always Q-Bomb! /Fuerte in USF4

But yeah, I know it's probably been addressed, but unless Cloud gets a Melee!Fox-style Shine on top of everything else he's got, I don’t see his versatility as being so domineering to the point that he totally crushes it in neutral.

His kit is definitely nothing to sneeze at, though.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Ffamran]

Could Sheik still count as a runner up as an El Feurte? She plays neutral, but at a level nobody can beat except Sonic. The other thing is her buttons are probably better than Sonic's outside of Sonic's Spin Dash and Charge.

The other characters mentioned are hard to find good comparisons to because Bowser, DK, and Ganondorf are the closest to our grapplers.

What about Wario, though? He's a mobile grappler who can choose to not play as a grappler, but is still a grappler... I think I made no sense with that sentence...

but the answer to everything nowadays is always Q-Bomb! /Fuerte in USF4

But yeah, I know it's probably been addressed, but unless Cloud gets a Melee!Fox-style Shine on top of everything else he's got, I don’t see his versatility as being so domineering to the point that he totally crushes it in neutral.

His kit is definitely nothing to sneeze at, though.

Smooth Criminal

If Cloud's Limit Charge had a hitbox with the right hit angle, it would be an even better Melee Shine considering it has no recovery. The only problem is that you can't wavedash, so Cloud can't waveshine, but if he could... Damn.

 

[Big-Cat]

Sonic and Fuerte are about Spin Dash/Habanero Dash mixups, so the comparison still applies.

Wario is more like Rufus with a motorcycle instead of a dive kick.

 

[Radical Larry]

I might need to start maining Bowser alongside my Link now, since Bowser is just that powerful now thanks to the one buff that can fix all of his problems...and link into virtually every attack of his (except Jab, D-Tilt, F-Tilt, Dash and F-Smash). So I'll set aside my Ganondorf as a tertiary character, just so I can focus on Link and Bowser mainly. But this won't mean I will give up on the hulking wall of pain.

But I digress...

Link is like Akuma or Cody. He is like Akuma because he sets up projectiles at many angles, and has hard hitting attacks, but he is like Cody because he uses weaponry and special projectile attacks. I mean come on, we've seen that Street Fighter IV mod from Maximilian Dood.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I might need to start maining Bowser alongside my Link now, since Bowser is just that powerful now thanks to the one buff that can fix all of his problems...and link into virtually every attack of his (except Jab, D-Tilt, F-Tilt, Dash and F-Smash). So I'll set aside my Ganondorf as a tertiary character, just so I can focus on Link and Bowser mainly. But this won't mean I will give up on the hulking wall of pain.

But I digress...

Link is like Akuma or Cody. He is like Akuma because he sets up projectiles at many angles, and has hard hitting attacks, but he is like Cody because he uses weaponry and special projectile attacks. I mean come on, we've seen that Street Fighter IV mod from Maximilian Dood.

Isn't Akuma supposed to be a pressuring Glass Cannon? Wouldn't that be more fitting for Tink instead of Link or am I being dumb?

 

[TTTTTsd]

Oh. Another thing that helps Cloud in legitimately any matchup is something nice about his throws. They're not good for anything besides positioning, I'm well aware (U-Throw is clearly the best). If you have to beat a shield with a grab as Cloud, fear not! There is one underrated, handy aspect about his throws.

Outside of D-Throw, none of them are weight dependent. While this is not amazing vs. lighter characters, it's great vs. middleweights and beyond, as this means you get consistent frame advantage (i.e. you can charge Limit optimally no matter what, or pressure optimally no matter what as well). This is a kind of overlooked aspect about his throws that I think, in the grand scheme of how the character works and plays, is pretty solid. Just my opinion though, feel free to critique or explore it.

 

[Ffamran]

Link would be more like Gouken then, right? Gouken's more defensive while Akuma's more offensive... The comparisons are getting off-topic - probably my fault -, but I would love to see someone do a complete comparison with which Smash character is to who in Street Fighter and, if needed, other fighting games. It'd be really interesting, but better suited as another thread.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Isn't Akuma supposed to be a pressuring Glass Cannon? Wouldn't that be more fitting for Tink instead of Link or am I being dumb?

Akuma and Seth are like brothers; they have every option at the cost of health and execution. Tink doesn't go, he can't do big damage and he's not really a rushdown character.

 

[Wtfwasthat]

Some of my thoughts on Luigi in the metagame.

Luigi is a character with alot of tools to be great, but also has many glaring weaknesses. Being my main in every smash game, his poor air mobility will always hold him back from being a consistent tournament threat imo. However, once he gets in close combat prepare to take a hefty amount of damage. The problem is actually getting in, something that most people are aware of.

Once luigi is in, it's great as he can dish out a ton of percent. He has combos on all types of weight classes, fall speeds, and percents. Its only a matter of recognizing which followup is optimal at the given time whether it be from a dthrow, nair, techchase, etc. A good luigi can rack up 20-30% everytime he gets a grab or string going. Frame data is impeccable, smashes and aerials are powerful and he has a great medium range projectile.

It is extremely frustrating how characters with projectiles and better mobility can just wall him out completely and he can't do a thing about it. What I mean by this is that a character like for example can just needle camp the whole game and there is almost nothing luigi can do about it. Sure it is an extremely lame way to play, but many people will do this.

Other characters are . There are others but these are the ones that I can think of off the top of my head. Cloud can limit meter camp luigi throughout the whole game. Toon link, duck hunt and villager simply wall him out and luigi requires extreme precision while powershielding in hopes to get closer and even then its not guarenteed you will get a grab or punish in before they continue their onslaught.

In addition to all of this, his recovery is extremely lackluster. Green missle and cyclone have tons of end lag which leave him susceptible to easy gimps which most people still do not take advantage of enough. Sometimes you dont even have to hit , all you have to do is stand infront of the missle and youll get sent back to the stage while either plummets down or uses another predictable recovery option that can be punished. Sure, recovery mixups are important but Im just pointing out how it can be taken advantage of more easily that other characters.

Overall I believe is a very solid character, but once people start edgeguarding more and playing the matchup more optimally by zoning him out I think that he will drop on the tier list in a year or so.

Also for the record I think 's worst matchups are

 

[Cutie Gwen]

You know, I just realized something. We very rarely see ROB in anything. Isn't he at the very least mid tier?

 

[Das Koopa]

You know, I just realized something. We very rarely see ROB in anything. Isn't he at the very least mid tier?

Maybe? I have him at 20th on my list atm. He keeps going lower with every revision I make because he either lacks adequate representation or results. Same with Yoshi and Peach.

Theoryworking has him with some good tools. Two good projectiles, a Dthrow-Uair combo, nice and hard to kill with his weight, some quick tilts/aerials. Maybe it doesn't flow well together - I haven't used him in a while.

 

[kaz99]

You know, I just realized something. We very rarely see ROB in anything. Isn't he at the very least mid tier?

You have Mr.Eric and 8bitman that get good results. I think 8bit got top 8 at a tournament recently, but I can't remember which one...

 

[Emblem Lord]

ROB is LEGIT.

Also yall hate Sonic damn.

Comparisons to El Fuerte?

Yall are so disrespectful.

 

[Das Koopa]

You have Mr.Eric and 8bitman that get good results. I think 8bit got top 8 at a tournament recently, but I can't remember which one...

Eric did really badly at Dismantle 2 afaik. I don't think he even got Top 16 (clarify if I'm wrong on this <_<). But 8bitman rings a bell.

Edit: Looking at the challonge bracket, he went out in Loser's Round 4. Not sure where that puts him.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Mewtwo is either Akuma or Seth, perhaps more Seth.

Also, when it comes to Mewtwo vs. Cloud, I don't think the matchup is all that bad? I know other Mewtwos might disagree, but being able to outrange the sword in neutral, being able to edgeguard solidly, and having a good amount of kill power makes me think that it'll never be worse than a slight disadvantage.

I think it relies a lot on capatilizing on advantage. Both Mewtwo and Cloud have great advantage states.