Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[KAOSTAR]

You just have to play a much tighter misttakeless game vs sheik. Marth can win but must have good spacing and stay active. avoid getting grabbed,

being near the edge is very scary.

I hate sheik lol

 

[JBM falcon08]

sheik is simply difficult because there is no margin for error.

a sheik that can simply play defensive, camp with needles will usually beat marths because the marth normally won't space well against her, getting a grab.

i honestly believe that this matchup just should be avoided completely if possible,imo its the hardest counter in the game amoung all high/top tiers.

 

[cykofox]

and see thats why i rarely get involved in these discussions because this is all theory talk, actually being efficient is hard, playing this game and doing the things you deem as worthy is hard, otherwise we'd all be pros.

 

[KAOSTAR]

and see thats why i rarely get involved in these discussions because this is all theory talk, actually being efficient is hard, playing this game and doing the things you deem as worthy is hard, otherwise we'd all be pros.

This is not an example of complete theory talk. Sheik is hard but PPl have given reason for why. Its not an easy match because of the fact that sheik can do ______,____,___and _________ .

its easy to say that having good spacing is important and dont make mistakes but for this one its kinda the truth. Marth can outspace sheik because of the fact that his sword is alot longer than his ****. You basically have to have the patience to space and you will win.

Most players in this situation get impatient. =lose

 

[Phoenix~Lament]

Simple question.

When marths full hop ->, often to ledgehog/guard (Therefore they want to face <-) they do a bair to turn around.

Why is this so?

 

[ArcNatural]

Simple question.

When marths full hop ->, often to ledgehog/guard (Therefore they want to face <-) they do a bair to turn around.

Why is this so?

Both the Bair and Dair are generally better for edge guarding than the others. And jumping out like this (as long as you use the C-stick to bair) allows you to carry a lot of momentum and jump out further than turning around and jumping out.

Not to mention it looks cool.

 

[AlcyoNite]

Thanks for your help so far. on the topic of grabs, what comboes are guaranteed vs sheik. whenever i get a grab below 35%, i always go for u-tilt (m2k said so), but it doesnt always connect and i feel like im almost wasting my grabs when i u-throw --> whiff a tilt

Not to mention it looks cool.

This

 

[Tero.]

Thanks for your help so far. on the topic of grabs, what comboes are guaranteed vs sheik. whenever i get a grab below 35%, i always go for u-tilt (m2k said so), but it doesnt always connect and i feel like im almost wasting my grabs when i u-throw --> whiff a tilt

If the jump out of uthrow utilt follow up with fair and try to juggle them.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Simple question.

When marths full hop ->, often to ledgehog/guard (Therefore they want to face <-) they do a bair to turn around.

Why is this so?

For both edgeguarding and edgehogging it is more effective to have your back facing the opponent. This is because Bair is Marth's longest ranged aerial (horizontally), and also has the best trajectory for edgeguards (other than dair o course, but for practicallity bair is more useful). Using the fullhop bair to turn around puts Marth in an overall stronger position for edgeguarding, and it's fairly quick as well as easy to perform. The reason you'd rather go with bair over side B is because you only get one floaty side B per jump cycle and you shouldn't risk getting knocked off stage without it (if say, you miss your edgeguard).

Overall Marth just has the most flexibility when his back is towards the offstage opponent. Bair is just one of the most effective ways to get into that position (since it's fast and easy).

 

[KAOSTAR]

not to mention that dair has soooo much more range because of the arc.

I love dairing from an upthrow, uair, or uptilt.

That angle you get is sooo crucial and just an easy kill. you want the lowest angle possible so hit as late as you can with the dair and that allows you to dair from farther into the stage.

I love dairs guys lol

 

[Knossos]

How useful(if at all) is reverse dolphin slash? & in what situations?

 

[Phoenix~Lament]

How useful(if at all) is reverse dolphin slash? & in what situations?

It's a 5 frame kill move (beating out everything but the shine and rest). The only problem is that you have to be literally right next to/on top of the opponent, though you can set that up..

It won't be your primary way of killing but it's always an option that can surprise people and make your game less predictable.

As for setting it up.. Go watch some good marth videos, since that's the best advice I can give you. Upthrow at mediumish percents on fastfallers to reverse dolphin slash or nair may work, or maybe a downthrow, tech-chase and reverse dolphin slash.

 

[Tero.]

Dolphin Slash out of shield to punish bad spaced attacks (like smashes or dash attacks against your shield).

 

[Falcinho]

PAL Ken Combo =D

 

[SinceEternity]

do people usually use c-stick or Z for their aerials? it seems like z is faster...

 

[Retroking2000]

Dolphin Slash out of shield to punish bad spaced attacks (like smashes or dash attacks against your shield).

if someone attacks you are you shield you can wavedash out of the shield into a upb surprise killer

if someone has not go there shield fully covered(eg head) , you could shorthop up B

i use this move(dolphin) excessively since i play alot of sheiks with my marth

 

[metashinryu]

do people usually use c-stick or Z for their aerials? it seems like z is faster...

i use z for doublefairing with marth,and nairing with capn,and doublefairing with luigi

and its not faster,just you use same finger if you use a or cstick,if you use z you tap them almost same time(well,yeah its faster)

 

[Retroking2000]

is z is faster because its a sort of trigger than the other main attack buttons (A)

when its A is pressed its a magnetic current on the motherboard which takes a while to get back to normal

where as Z is trigger you can hear the click when you press

i hope everyone reads this

** if you want a faster air game**

incorporate all airs using Z

 

[Retroking2000]

sheik is simply difficult because there is no margin for error.

a sheik that can simply play defensive, camp with needles will usually beat marths because the marth normally won't space well against her, getting a grab.

i honestly believe that this matchup just should be avoided completely if possible,imo its the hardest counter in the game amoung all high/top tiers.

being a NTSC must be devastating because her dthrow is a big setup for everything

lol

over here in PAL our marths primarily focus on tech chasing

just to get the sheik user in 1 option (tech)

 

[KAOSTAR]

is z is faster because its a sort of trigger than the other main attack buttons (A)

when its A is pressed its a magnetic current on the motherboard which takes a while to get back to normal

where as Z is trigger you can hear the click when you press

i hope everyone reads this

** if you want a faster air game**

incorporate all airs using Z

Im pretty sure the controller isnt the limiting factor on speed when it comes to melee.
Plus if you were too pick one option only then the c stick is clearly the best. You can buffer inputs and each one takes a frame to start. Z is a button not a trigger.

also is this a question or a statement. I was gonna flame you but I couldnt tell if u were passing out false garbage or asking a question.

do people usually use c-stick or Z for their aerials? it seems like z is faster...

I use A Z[anger] and the c stick for different situations. Do whats comfortable. There isnt one way thats better, so just know ppl use all three. some ppl use 1, 2 , or all 3 themselves. If you want specifics you can pm me cuz I dont think we should discuss that in a marth specific thread cuz its a general question. Also one that comes up alot.

How useful(if at all) is reverse dolphin slash? & in what situations?

well you can combo into it. What dj combo told me was that its used to trick DI. The last tourney I went to I did fair fair reverse up b by the edge cuz they thought I was going to dair and DIed for that.

Do it out of shield when they do a poorly spaced attack combo into it and I use it as an edgeguard against fox and falco and sometimes falcon and ganon.

 

[PK Webb]

When being f thrown by another marth to avoid a tipper f smash which way should i DI????????

 

[Binx]

When being f thrown by another marth to avoid a tipper f smash which way should i DI????????

Marth can guaranteed regrab marth until 10%, if you expect another fthrow you can DI away or down or down and away to escape a regrab and escape tipper range. I'm not sure if there is ever a reason not to do this, since you'd prolly wanna di that way if you expect uthrows too.

 

[Dark Sonic]

C-stick is the best option for aerials as it allows you to use the control stick for spacing, which is essential to playing Marth. You should encorporate the c-stick as much as possible into your aerial game (including shdfs for whenever you actually use those...) Sure it takes a little bit of practice, but the time it takes for Marth to jump (I think it was 5 frames or something) is more than enough time to move your thumb to the c-stick

 

[ArcNatural]

Marth can guaranteed regrab marth until 10%, if you expect another fthrow you can DI away or down or down and away to escape a regrab and escape tipper range. I'm not sure if there is ever a reason not to do this, since you'd prolly wanna di that way if you expect uthrows too.

OF course there is a reason. Di-ing a fthrow correctly is horrible DI for a dthrow.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Oddly enough, alot of players get regrabbed after 10 percent but not more than 2. Its because of DIing away.

To avoid tippers u have to Di away but like A.natural said, DIing away can get you regrabbed or side b reset into a grab from the dthrow.

Also if you fthrow on the edge and they DI in-just dair. dont even bother with regrabs or downtilts or the fsmash[about 40 percent and above] otherwise do what you must.

 

[Cactuar]

It's a 5 frame kill move (beating out everything but the shine and rest). The only problem is that you have to be literally right next to/on top of the opponent, though you can set that up..

It won't be your primary way of killing but it's always an option that can surprise people and make your game less predictable.

As for setting it up.. Go watch some good marth videos, since that's the best advice I can give you. Upthrow at mediumish percents on fastfallers to reverse dolphin slash or nair may work, or maybe a downthrow, tech-chase and reverse dolphin slash.

During most of the percent ranges where you can upthrow dolphin slash, it would be better to just upthrow utilt or upthrow tipper (lower mid ranges), or upthrow into uair combos (mid to high mid). Dolphin slash is not something you should really do out of upthrow.

 

[AlcyoNite]

Oddly enough, alot of players get regrabbed after 10 percent but not more than 2. Its because of DIing away.

To avoid tippers u have to Di away but like A.natural said, DIing away can get you regrabbed or side b reset into a grab from the dthrow.

Also if you fthrow on the edge and they DI in-just dair. dont even bother with regrabs or downtilts or the fsmash[about 40 percent and above] otherwise do what you must.

Dair is something i never look for because good players never DI in.

just thought i would put that out there

 

[JBM falcon08]

always keep your options open.

 

[SinceEternity]

what's some options against sheik's needle --> grab/dash attack approach? i always get ***** by it...
if I shield, they grab
if I fair, i get hit by the needle then hit by dash attack
if I sidestep, i still get grabbed,
if I go back, i still get hit by needles and am unable to approach..
and usually I can't get a fair oos out in time.. what's your guy's mentality to approaching sheik? just play defensive until an opening comes out or counterattack?

 

[Binx]

OF course there is a reason. Di-ing a fthrow correctly is horrible DI for a dthrow.

actually DI down is correct for both throws, you are still in a tech chase but there is nothing that can hit you guaranteed, unless your gonna go off the edge in which case your screwed no matter where you di.

VS Sheik you have to be patient and tip her with a fair on the ground, or empty short hop and grab when she dashes back to punish what would have been some fair lag, since your grab is longer than Yoshi's it can land. That is one of the very few tricks that I actually use successfully vs sheik. You can rack up some decent damage out of either option. And you can be punished for either one so don't guess wrong. Its hard to pressure Sheik, cause her moveset is a lot more versatile in that match up.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Dair is something i never look for because good players never DI in.

just thought i would put that out there

Never is a really strong word.

Plus not looking for it is a lack of your own field of vision. I didnt say go for it prematurely, but if its there its there. Its like the no look pass to shaq.

but also, good players tend to not DI the Fthrow in. But who said you have to Fthrow? Marth can do so much on the edge and if you mix up your attack patterns you will eventually be rewarded with an easy kill.

At certain percentages you can get a dair from an upthrow because they DIed away and they are over the ledge.

just though I would put that out there

 

[Smash G 0 D]

Dair is something i never look for because good players never DI in.

just thought i would put that out there

Edgeguarding? hellooooooo

 

[KAOSTAR]

Dont worry guys he was just playin lol.

 

[AlcyoNite]

ur right, never say never

but arent we talking about real players? sure if i see bad DI ill punish it, but thats really pretty basic. for those training, the things they should be trying are not necessarily dairs from the edge

 

[knightpraetor]

i have some questions, vs falcon once i have knocked the falcon off with a fair and regrabbed the ledge, the falcon will up+ b again, do i need to fastfall to over + B to fair to up+ B again like m2k does, or can i just tap away, then over + b when i get time...


it's just that when i fastfall i sometimes counter, so i'm wondering if it's necessary or not.

also, if he doesn't DI the over +B, i can spike him correct? do you think there is sufficient time to react to his DI? I was just worried i might pick up the bad habit of always spiking since my usual practice partners keep failing to DI the over + B away so that I would be forced to fair.


also, if you take falcon's up+B and tech, can you wall jump spike? just wondering if that is an option.

oh and my final question, is it worth going for uptilt after your fair's on shield? or is that something i should never do? I find that a lot of people shieldgrab too much and i punish them heavily with uptilt..but I got to thinking about it, and I thought that maybe it's a bad idea to risk a high lag move against falcon since he can wd out of shield after the uptilt to grab to death.

final question #2...is dash attack too risky against a grounded falcon if you are past 20%? if i hit it, i typically get 40-50, but i rarely get a kill, while they can get more off of a grab.

Obviously at some percents it sets up for a kill, but i was wondering if people thought dash attack was worth risking for the combo damage it generates..or whether marth's use that move less in the vs falcon matchup.

 

[Smash G 0 D]

Why would you need to fastfall? If it causes problems, just go with the more consistent way.

You CAN spike, but untipped Fairs are much safer and just as effective.

You can, but again, I prefer to use untipped Fairs.

Utilt is kind of an awkward hit on Falcon after he hits your shield. For one thing, I don't think it would even reach. Utilt works better when Falcon is in the air.

I find it to generally be a good idea to not give Falcon the opportunity to get you in a combo, so safely, it isn't a good idea to dash attack openly. The cooldown lag is Falcon's chance to Dair -> Knee or some other death combo.

If you know you'll be able to hit with the dash attack, then go for it. IT really depends on the Falcon you're playing.

 

[KAOSTAR]

ur right, never say never

but arent we talking about real players? sure if i see bad DI ill punish it, but thats really pretty basic. for those training, the things they should be trying are not necessarily dairs from the edge

I was just saying its an option. It doesnt require much training lol. Its more of just having an eye for an easy kill.

I play not expecting to get it but because I have an eye for it I get it more than I should. People arent perfect, even good players. Also you Di the Fthrow away but from an upthrow that same DI can lead to a dair at the right percent thats all. I guess use mindgames wisely.

Question: does anyone use the first hit of the nair for anything other than nair to grab. Im sure I could just think of some stuff but just wondering if it was something any of u already had in mind like off the top of the dome.

 

[knightpraetor]

sorry, what i meant to ask is whether i should uptilt after i fair on his shield.

is it too risky? the easiest two punishes the falcon can do is wait in shield + wd to grab, or wait in shield and aerial out of shield after the uptilt has hit the falcon's shield.


finally, my last question is whether it is worth actually wavelanding to tech chase...isn't it faster to just double jump + wd down, then chase either direction?

 

[Cactuar]

finally, my last question is whether it is worth actually wavelanding to tech chase...isn't it faster to just double jump + wd down, then chase either direction?

When would you be doing this during a tech chase?

 

[KAOSTAR]

I can tell u that if u are going to fair and then uptilt if u are a little closer than the fair tipper range u should turnaround uptilt.

It seems to space u out alittle more so they have a harder time grabbing u lol.