Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[4% APR]

Cosmo's DI is incredible

 

[KAOSTAR]

lol good **** cosmo.

All Im saying is that its not an automatic stock. You have a chance to at least live. Not saying u wont get hit.


And yea hitting an enemy, or a shield, or a shyguy add a certain amount of lag to your attack. It slows down your actions which also changes the timing for an l cancel and you need to compensate for that.

If u are not at the full height or your jump when you attack, you cannot immediately fastfall. If u are having some problems then maybe attack a little later or learn the timing. both would be ideal because they you can use delayed attacks to fake out an opponent.

 

[Pye]

Hey

A friend of mine is saying the Ken Combo is never escapable, and I'm pretty sure it can be DIed out of. Who's right?

 

[SonuvaBeach]

Hey

A friend of mine is saying the Ken Combo is never escapable, and I'm pretty sure it can be DIed out of. Who's right?

You. Ken combo is situational, if it was inescapable...well I don't want to really think about that.

 

[ArcNatural]

You can always DI out of a non-tippered Ken Combo. But certain % tippered fair usually always leads to one. Since tippered sends them straight up it's harder to DI out of it. Maybe you can DI up and away though and force something else.

 

[metashinryu]

hey i just got the hang of shdfair,and i tried some other thing with it,how about callin it short hop double aerials? you can make a fair and then a uair that combos into utilt-fsmash,also you can fair to half nair for reseting to fsmash or anything,i think you can makje a dair too,but my timing isnt that good still -_-

 

[nasir123]

hey man i know u can up trow chain grab captin falcon but i cant do it do u gotta JC grab? and also what do u do in this match up i know that falcon must to nair as an aprotche but i unno how to do it CAN U HELP ME MASTAR CACTUAR

 

[ArcNatural]

hey i just got the hang of shdfair,and i tried some other thing with it,how about callin it short hop double aerials? you can make a fair and then a uair that combos into utilt-fsmash,also you can fair to half nair for reseting to fsmash or anything,i think you can makje a dair too,but my timing isnt that good still -_-

Yes most common are sh double fair and fair to upair. You can do every single aerial though after the first fair. Or waveland/airdodge/overB etc.

hey man i know u can up trow chain grab captin falcon but i cant do it do u gotta JC grab? and also what do u do in this match up i know that falcon must to nair as an aprotche but i unno how to do it CAN U HELP ME MASTAR CACTUAR

Falcon can't be Chain grabbed unless they DI fully, I'm pretty sure they can jump out otherwise. Honestly don't need to CG Falcon, Upthrow techchase (watch for them to jump out and then you can combo pretty easily). Falcon doesn't need to nair as an approach. Falcon can approach with a lot of different setups.

The main things to watch out for with Marth is to avoid getting predictable with dash dancing as Falcon is fast enough to start attacking your patterns. You can CC grab his nair but you can't really CC his dair and knee so you need to be pretty confident that they are going to nair. If your good at reaction you can uptilt Falcon out of his shffl approaches as well. And just edgeguard well. Pretty much any standard edgeguard wrecks Falcon as long as you don't panic.

 

[KAOSTAR]

oh yea, umm dont get kneed.

Most important thing for marth in this one is to DI properly so you dont get wrecked. Falcons uairs and grabs get marth at all percents. Avoid the knee at all cost and you should have a chance.

Also, almost all of the kills in the matchup[as marth] are gimps. Lower the better.

I like to fthrow fthrow dthrow right off the bat and tech chase two more dthrows until they tech towards the ledge and fsmash. It sounds optomistic but it happens alot.

 

[nasir123]

Yes most common are sh double fair and fair to upair. You can do every single aerial though after the first fair. Or waveland/airdodge/overB etc.



Falcon can't be Chain grabbed unless they DI fully, I'm pretty sure they can jump out otherwise. Honestly don't need to CG Falcon, Upthrow techchase (watch for them to jump out and then you can combo pretty easily). Falcon doesn't need to nair as an approach. Falcon can approach with a lot of different setups.

The main things to watch out for with Marth is to avoid getting predictable with dash dancing as Falcon is fast enough to start attacking your patterns. You can CC grab his nair but you can't really CC his dair and knee so you need to be pretty confident that they are going to nair. If your good at reaction you can uptilt Falcon out of his shffl approaches as well. And just edgeguard well. Pretty much any standard edgeguard wrecks Falcon as long as you don't panic.

alright thanx man i have been fighting this other falcon player and i have been man handeling this kid ....AND FALCON ..which is impossible XD.

but yeah man thanx a lot of that iidea,, any tips on the match up for sheik??

 

[SonuvaBeach]

alright thanx man i have been fighting this other falcon player and i have been man handeling this kid ....AND FALCON ..which is impossible XD.

but yeah man thanx a lot of that iidea,, any tips on the match up for sheik??

Get her off the stage. Grab ledge. Get off ledge and punish that horrible up b lag.

Don't challenge the fair.

Learn to space and control area very well. You have the range, make sure you use it.

I'm no pro, but those are the basic things I repeat to myself mentally when playing marth sheik.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Dont get closer than you have to. Sheik has one of the best grab ranges in the game [3rd I believe].

Space out fairs and get her off the stage. Almost always better to grab the ledge and punish the up+B lag unless you know you can hit before she teleports.

Be careful cuz needles can do alot of harm to marth and get you grabbed. If you do get grabbed you neeed to DI. Try up and away for start and you may be able to jump out or airdodge from sheiks down throw.

 

[ArcNatural]

My main strategy with Sheik is staying extremely spaced and covering her roll behind you with a DI'd backwards shffl nair. When you start making them get caught in their shield and unable to roll you can start forcing bad situations for them.

CCing at low % is pretty much a necessity here. And never do anything stupid when Sheik is at a low %. If your not spaced just get away or try to aerial as late as possible (or dair). Dtilt and grab and extremely well spaced single fairs are your options at low %. If they are in the air you can do whatever you want, but if they are on the ground you need to be very smart. CC grabbing wrecks both Sheik and Marth in this matchup. I find whoever does it better in the matchup usually wins. This happens to be why Sheik has the advantage because she is a much better grounded character plus she has a projectile.

Edgeguarding Sheik smartly is a must. You must be good at wavelanding onto the stage to punish their upB onto the stage, you must be good at wavelanding or getting up to dthrow waveland fastfall to edgehog as well. Once your good at those two things is when you can really start to edgegaurd Sheik. You can dthrow wavedash edgehog a few times then just dthrow turn around dtilt or fsmash as they have become accustomed to what you were doing before. Or you can dthrow wavedash fastfall double jump dair. Running off shieldbreaker is also fairly good for edgegaurding Sheik and is grossly underused in this matchup. Because of her UpB starting lag and the Shieldbreakers sweeping motion you can catch them a lot with it. Especially if they think they are comfortable and out of range to do the angled down upB to sweetspot the edge.

That's all I can think of for now.

 

[Smash G 0 D]

It's funny how even though Marth completely outranges Sheik (except for possibly her Bair), she can **** him easily if the Marth makes mistakes.

Don't make mistakes when fighting Sheik.

You HAVE to space really well or you'll lose. At high %s, Dthrow -> Fair is your death.

Arc, I'm not sure I agree with CCing at low %. This is very risky, because you can't CC after a little bit of percent is taken. One example I can see where you would use a CC with Marth is if you got Dsmash'd at low %, but I don't think a good Sheik would do that. It's kind of pointless.

It's better just to be a little bit less than your jab's range from Sheik. If you keep her that far away, you'll be fine. Dtilt to poke under shield, Fair/Utilt to catch her jumping out of shield. Etc.

 

[Mew2King]

my main strategy with marth is to ditto them

and sheik is to ditto them

and fox is to ditto them

and peach is to ditto them

and falcon is to ditto them

 

[choknater]

^i wish i could say that about ice climbers =\^

 

[DtJ Jungle]

IC dittos would be awful.

 

[nasir123]

Get her off the stage. Grab ledge. Get off ledge and punish that horrible up b lag.

Don't challenge the fair.

Learn to space and control area very well. You have the range, make sure you use it.

I'm no pro, but those are the basic things I repeat to myself mentally when playing marth sheik.

wow these boards have been helping me lot i am not 3 or 2 stocking this falco but i am wwinning and we just a had a minny touny and i amost won thanx 2 u guys I LUV U GUYS .... and cactuar

 

[Motel Vacaville of the West]

What's an auto-cancel?

 

[KAOSTAR]

my main strategy with marth is to ditto them

and sheik is to ditto them

and fox is to ditto them

and peach is to ditto them

and falcon is to ditto them

You help is much obliged lol. but comeon, peach dittos, what if you get dreamland

 

[Meneks]

I know it sounds stupid but I've been playing some tourney level ganons and for some reason I suck against agressive ganons...Maybe its because I'm to agressive? I'm not really sure...tips on the matter would be great

 

[DtJ Jungle]

For the Marth ganon matchup you just need to be very defensive and homosexual. Outspace them. They have great defensive tactics, so you need to make their slow *** come to you. Spacing is key.

 

[KAOSTAR]

just dont get hit lol.

But it might be something you need to get use to. Fast ganons are intimidating. Dash dance and techchase with grabs until you can get him off the stage.

Try to gimp ganon cuz a few hits are lethal against marth.

I do think he is easy to combo tho. Fairs and side B are super effective but from closer range cuz all ganons know how to do is **** and space attacks.

 

[KILLA.FOR.CASH.]

shiek is a ******* ***** for marth to fight

its like if ur not mew2king then ull lose

 

[Aesir]

What's an auto-cancel?

rising nair, then you fast fall the second hit. You suffer 4 frames of lag, instead of the traditional 7 frames you get with l canceling.

 

[Mogwai]

...that's a bit specific Aesir...

auto canceling just means that you land during a certain range of frames of your move (usually the final frames) or right after your aerial finishes, such that your character's landing animation is just the animation from landing from a regular jump, rather than the landing during an aerial animation (which is always laggier).

 

[Aesir]

...it's in a marth thread. It's pretty reasonable to assume he's talking about marths.

 

[Mogwai]

right, but auto canceling applies to his other aerials in other situations too

 

[soap]

my main strategy with marth is to ditto them

and sheik is to ditto them

and fox is to ditto them

and peach is to ditto them

and falcon is to ditto them

those falcon dittos didn't quite work out

 

[KAOSTAR]

you guys and your cancels

 

[KosukeKGA]

I'm a noob...So I ask you to help me out here.

I play against this Peach who likes to Crown Slap me into a bunch of jabs...Is it possible to shieldgrab these jabs assuming I shield the Crown?

And at what percentage does CC'ing Peach's dash attack stop working (READ: you get hit up in the air even if you're crouching).

And even then, shouldn't I just shieldgrab Peach's dash attack?

I don't have the game on me so I cannot test some things...Thanks.

 

[ArcNatural]

I don't think you can grab before the first jab comes out, but you can shield the first jab and grab between the second. The easiest way though if you think they are going to jab is to just shield grab and immediately CC grab (holding down + shield + spamming A). That way if you miss the timing for after the first grab you will immediately grab during the second. This is useful as it prevents any of the jab -> grab shenanigans from Peach.

If they mix it up though with dsmash it can be a little bit trickier, but I've rarely had issues adapting to it.

 

[soap]

ya, i love CC grab so much. It's like i don't have to think nearly as much anymore. just hold down and spam A

 

[Smash G 0 D]

Why would you CC grab when you can pivot grab ._.

It works better in most situations if you see the attack coming

 

[ArcNatural]

Why would you CC grab when you can pivot grab ._.

It works better in most situations if you see the attack coming

For one thing he asked what to do if he shields the fair and expects the jab. Not if he is running around.

Plus this is Peach, I'm sure it has it's uses but pivot grabbing Peach out of a float canceled aerial has some pretty precise timing. Plus the fair and most of her moves have pretty good priority coupled with the fact that it's float canceled.

(Still rocking the sig btw thanks Smash GOD)

 

[KAOSTAR]

I'm a noob...So I ask you to help me out here.

I play against this Peach who likes to Crown Slap me into a bunch of jabs...Is it possible to shieldgrab these jabs assuming I shield the Crown?

And at what percentage does CC'ing Peach's dash attack stop working (READ: you get hit up in the air even if you're crouching).

And even then, shouldn't I just shieldgrab Peach's dash attack?

I don't have the game on me so I cannot test some things...Thanks.

I thought that if peach was perfect with those jab aerials it was considered an infinite. I would assume that this meant almost unpublishable[if at all] shield pressure.

 

[AlcyoNite]

In approaching fox, ive noticed m2k (and likely other marths) likes to look for spacing a fair (as if playing a sheik) to automatically running away if the fox did not carelessly run into the hit.
I understand this concept of camping the fox, but this spawns other dilemmas for me for follow up from attempted camp techniques such as the one listed above.

For foxes who are not at beginner level and decide that they should not run into a marth throwing out a bunch of grabs, what are valid approaches against a fox who, for all intents and purposes, camps the marth for grabs just as the marth does? What openings am i looking for, other than a simple whiffed dash attack or grab? And if the fox does in fact miss the grab and I am spacing for a fair (or other move at tipper distance), how can i get a grab when he could just run away or spot dodge?

I guess what I'm asking is how the camp game, played by marth, can put the match into his favor (ideally, without trading stocks/grabs)? Ive trained this match up many times and analyzed many marth v fox matches, but I need a more method approach to learning this; I have more problem with this than vs sheik.

 

[Ryucloud]

Im working on my defensvie ame for marth so when im working on the ariels for marth im in quiet of a dilemia. use the a buttong or the c stick for areils i use the c stick for marth short fair and im not sure which one is a better aprroach to use do marth pros use the cstick for wut persific attacks

 

[Miggz]

@ Crystalnite: Its a little unlikely you will bait a Fox to do his dash attack, at least at low percents against Marth. Your goal is to make Fox flinch by spot dodging. You can achieve this by dash towards him, dash away (the fox spot dodges) then you dash back in an grab. Another trick you can do is dash in and shield in Fox's face. This is another way to make your foe "flinch." You don't want to give Fox too much room, for he can simply rack up damage with his lasers. So if he is lasering, you will have no choice but to approach and stop him. Some Marth's even try and bait Fox to the edge by edge stalling. Hope this helps.

At Ryucloud: You need to C stick ALL of your aerials, except for nair, obviously. Using the C stick helps keep your fairs, dairs, up airs, and bairs well spaced.

 

[ArcNatural]

In approaching fox, ive noticed m2k (and likely other marths) likes to look for spacing a fair (as if playing a sheik) to automatically running away if the fox did not carelessly run into the hit.
I understand this concept of camping the fox, but this spawns other dilemmas for me for follow up from attempted camp techniques such as the one listed above.

For foxes who are not at beginner level and decide that they should not run into a marth throwing out a bunch of grabs, what are valid approaches against a fox who, for all intents and purposes, camps the marth for grabs just as the marth does? What openings am i looking for, other than a simple whiffed dash attack or grab? And if the fox does in fact miss the grab and I am spacing for a fair (or other move at tipper distance), how can i get a grab when he could just run away or spot dodge?

I guess what I'm asking is how the camp game, played by marth, can put the match into his favor (ideally, without trading stocks/grabs)? Ive trained this match up many times and analyzed many marth v fox matches, but I need a more method approach to learning this; I have more problem with this than vs sheik.

This really depends on HOW he gets his grabs. But I will give you some common examples of grab camping and how you can counter them.

1. Offensive aerial (either your moving forward or your short hopping in place) -

You main options here are to roll or spotdodge. Followed by dashing (don't forget to mix up dashing back and forward, too many only do back). But another option is jab/grabbing. Most people don't have perfect timing and if you think they are trying to camp the grab you can often just fair -> grab and catch them running in. Remember if you attempt this you should be CCing as you grab/jab so if they shffl into it instead you can get a free grab.

2. Defensive aerial -

Basically the same options as above except your a lot safer as the distance for them to run to grab you is longer. It's a lot easier to retreating fair -> grab as well as most players make it extremely obvious that they are running in against retreating fairs since it usually brings them past the initial dash distance.

3. Dash dance predictibiliy -

Most players at the advanced level do this. Say you have been fairing to dashing away to bait them to try to grab/shffl you, but instead they just keep running and grab you at a different point. This happens all the time because people are running through the motions of what they want to do instead of watching their opponents reaction to it. So however you like to dash dance grab you have to make sure you know when your opponent develops counters to stop you from getting that grab. So what M2k is doing is not just hoping they run into the aerial he is hoping that they foolishly run after him. If he is spaced right and they give chase he just immediately pivot grabs or does something that abruptly changes his position (like wavedashing in the opposite direction of the dash).

Pivot grabbing is useful here but not that necessary. What I do is this. Against players that actively predict dashes away if I see them give chase right when I dash I just pivot grab you probably can just do a regular turn around dash dance grab as well. But I usually just do it quickly without thinking and it always seems to be a pivot grab for me. This works amazingly well once you understand what dash dance camping creates in terms of conditioning. Another example would be when you dash forward they dash backwards then forwards and grab you during whatever lag move you are doing. Doing simple things like Dash to shield to timing a grab/oos shffl on their return attempt give you opportunities. It's all about disrupting the timing/watching your opponent if your being camped.

And Ryucloud

Other than the first fair of a sh double aerial, I usually use c-stick for most of the other aerials. But it's all reaction, I often switch around between using A or c-stick depending on the situation (like needing to shffl upair really fast, or doing a delayed shffl upair). But a majority of aerials are done with C-stick especially for spacing. The best way to describe it is initial attacks and approaches are generally c-sticked for me but once they are hit (or grabbed) I usually use whatever's appropriate. Just practice both and do what your comfortable with.