Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Smash G 0 D]

For one thing he asked what to do if he shields the fair and expects the jab. Not if he is running around.

Plus this is Peach, I'm sure it has it's uses but pivot grabbing Peach out of a float canceled aerial has some pretty precise timing. Plus the fair and most of her moves have pretty good priority coupled with the fact that it's float canceled.

(Still rocking the sig btw thanks Smash GOD)

Woops my bad.

And it's funny, I was just looking through some of my old files and I found that sig xD I was actually onsidering adding/changing a couple things and sending it to you for fun to see if you liked it maybe I will

I still think it's worth learning the timing for pivot grabs though

 

[KAOSTAR]

Woops my bad.

And it's funny, I was just looking through some of my old files and I found that sig xD I was actually onsidering adding/changing a couple things and sending it to you for fun to see if you liked it maybe I will

I still think it's worth learning the timing for pivot grabs though

Shield pivoting is much easier because the act of shielding makes you stop running and shield so one method is to pivot a shield which is easy, and then shield grab.

So a pivot shield grab is probably slightly slower because the shield will come up but its still reliable.

Edit: I know a couple of ppl who pivot their shields to open for any other attack. ie shield pivots to aerials. Like I said a little slower and easier to do but still reliable.

 

[AlcyoNite]

@ Crystalnite: Its a little unlikely you will bait a Fox to do his dash attack, at least at low percents against Marth. Your goal is to make Fox flinch by spot dodging. You can achieve this by dash towards him, dash away (the fox spot dodges) then you dash back in an grab. Another trick you can do is dash in and shield in Fox's face. This is another way to make your foe "flinch." You don't want to give Fox too much room, for he can simply rack up damage with his lasers. So if he is lasering, you will have no choice but to approach and stop him. Some Marth's even try and bait Fox to the edge by edge stalling. Hope this helps.

At Ryucloud: You need to C stick ALL of your aerials, except for nair, obviously. Using the C stick helps keep your fairs, dairs, up airs, and bairs well spaced.

This really depends on HOW he gets his grabs. But I will give you some common examples of grab camping and how you can counter them.

1. Offensive aerial (either your moving forward or your short hopping in place) -

You main options here are to roll or spotdodge. Followed by dashing (don't forget to mix up dashing back and forward, too many only do back). But another option is jab/grabbing. Most people don't have perfect timing and if you think they are trying to camp the grab you can often just fair -> grab and catch them running in. Remember if you attempt this you should be CCing as you grab/jab so if they shffl into it instead you can get a free grab.

2. Defensive aerial -

Basically the same options as above except your a lot safer as the distance for them to run to grab you is longer. It's a lot easier to retreating fair -> grab as well as most players make it extremely obvious that they are running in against retreating fairs since it usually brings them past the initial dash distance.

3. Dash dance predictibiliy -

Most players at the advanced level do this. Say you have been fairing to dashing away to bait them to try to grab/shffl you, but instead they just keep running and grab you at a different point. This happens all the time because people are running through the motions of what they want to do instead of watching their opponents reaction to it. So however you like to dash dance grab you have to make sure you know when your opponent develops counters to stop you from getting that grab. So what M2k is doing is not just hoping they run into the aerial he is hoping that they foolishly run after him. If he is spaced right and they give chase he just immediately pivot grabs or does something that abruptly changes his position (like wavedashing in the opposite direction of the dash).

Pivot grabbing is useful here but not that necessary. What I do is this. Against players that actively predict dashes away if I see them give chase right when I dash I just pivot grab you probably can just do a regular turn around dash dance grab as well. But I usually just do it quickly without thinking and it always seems to be a pivot grab for me. This works amazingly well once you understand what dash dance camping creates in terms of conditioning. Another example would be when you dash forward they dash backwards then forwards and grab you during whatever lag move you are doing. Doing simple things like Dash to shield to timing a grab/oos shffl on their return attempt give you opportunities. It's all about disrupting the timing/watching your opponent if your being camped.

And Ryucloud

Other than the first fair of a sh double aerial, I usually use c-stick for most of the other aerials. But it's all reaction, I often switch around between using A or c-stick depending on the situation (like needing to shffl upair really fast, or doing a delayed shffl upair). But a majority of aerials are done with C-stick especially for spacing. The best way to describe it is initial attacks and approaches are generally c-sticked for me but once they are hit (or grabbed) I usually use whatever's appropriate. Just practice both and do what your comfortable with.

Thanks a bunch; i know this took you a long *** time to write. I never really knew how t change up my dd game safely. ill try these methods out actively.

 

[Ryucloud]

Thanks man that really helped alot also on marth defensive game shfairs out of the sheild im working on recently like i obvouily learning how to attack and his offenisve game but now im working on his spanicng and denfensive game do u have any tips on that??

 

[Miggz]

Thanks man that really helped alot also on marth defensive game shfairs out of the sheild im working on recently like i obvouily learning how to attack and his offenisve game but now im working on his spanicng and denfensive game do u have any tips on that??

SHFFL fair isn't actually a good move to do out of your shield. SHFFL double fair would be a better choice, although Marth has better options then that as well. A better choice would be either a reverse Up B, SHFFL dair or SHFFL nair out of shield. If my enemy hits my shield and lands behind me, you can so a quick bair out of your shield. I love using bair out of my shield especially when my foe is near the edge. ^^

Regarding spacing, all you have to do is use the C stick for ALL your aerials. So let's take the SHFFL fair for example. First you do a short up. As Marth is reaching the peak of his short up start holding back on the analog stick. When Marth reaches his peak, flick the C stick forward, fast fall then l cancel. Simple as that. Using the C stick allows you to use the analog stick for spacing. :-)

 

[KAOSTAR]

SHFFL fair isn't actually a good move to do out of your shield. SHFFL double fair would be a better choice, although Marth has better options then that as well. A better choice would be either a reverse Up B, SHFFL dair or SHFFL nair out of shield. If my enemy hits my shield and lands behind me, you can so a quick bair out of your shield. I love using bair out of my shield especially when my foe is near the edge. ^^

I think this is a great option. SHFFL fair oos is beast. Space it and you should have no problems. Double fair is good too for pressure or maybe theyll shield grab and get hit.

 

[Miggz]

I think this is a great option. SHFFL fair oos is beast. Space it and you should have no problems. Double fair is good too for pressure or maybe theyll shield grab and get hit.

Well I figured it wasn't too good for two reasons. One, if you do a rising SHFFL fair (i.e. do the fair at the peak of Marth's jump) out of shield then the enemy would have probably recovered and be able to counter you. Two, if you do a quick SHFFL fair immediately after jumping out of your shield...then it doesn't really lead into anything. All it would do is swat the enemy away.

But I suppose we all have our methods of doing things. I'm not saying you are wrong, though. =D

 

[KAOSTAR]

haha ur a man of diplomacy lol. Im just saying for a defensive game Swatting and hitting the opponent is good. As long as you arent punished and if you can get some pressure off you.

Fairing is just good in general if u space it correctly..

 

[Ryucloud]

Thanks man ur advice help so much my dude thanks alot and naruto is the **** cant wait to see the final fight between naruto (sage mode ) vs sasuke (unstopable) lol cant wait

 

[Ndot]

Well I figured it wasn't too good for two reasons. One, if you do a rising SHFFL fair (i.e. do the fair at the peak of Marth's jump) out of shield then the enemy would have probably recovered and be able to counter you. Two, if you do a quick SHFFL fair immediately after jumping out of your shield...then it doesn't really lead into anything. All it would do is swat the enemy away.

But I suppose we all have our methods of doing things. I'm not saying you are wrong, though. =D

SHFFL fair oos is actually good. You can do it with double fair as well like you said earlier. If you're going to do one fair, then you need to fast fall it so that your opponent won't counter you with their own move while you're in the air. Not fast falling it could get you grabbed depending on their hit stun. Fairing without fast falling while jumping away works since you're moving further from them, possible tipper f-smash depending on DI.

You're wrong about the part where it doesn't lead into anything. All fairs usually could lead into something depending on percentage, tip or no tip, and DI. A fast falled fair oos can lead to a grab, which leads into your combos and tech chases. Same thing with the double fair. You just need to be fast.

Mix things up. Be unpredictable OOS. =)

 

[KAOSTAR]

You're wrong about the part where it doesn't lead into anything.....
Mix things up. Be unpredictable OOS. =)

Haha you can just state the contrare lol minus the "youre wrong".

Either way, a spaced fair cant be beaten. OOS I like to fade back so its safe. You can also land with a fair to a grab like you said.

Bottom line is marth is top tier for a reason

 

[DippnDots]

Cactus, or anyone, I feel like I run around with my marth too much in certain match ups. In marth dittos the maneuverability seems necessary to me, but when I play someone like fox and falcon it seems to end up biting me in the ***. Instance, when im dash dancing in front of a marth, i'll usually try to bait them into something I can punish, but when I translate this over to falcon or fox, they seem to be able to catch up to me and hit me with an attack (falcon's nair especially). Do I just need better spacing?

 

[ArcNatural]

Cactus, or anyone, I feel like I run around with my marth too much in certain match ups. In marth dittos the maneuverability seems necessary to me, but when I play someone like fox and falcon it seems to end up biting me in the ***. Instance, when im dash dancing in front of a marth, i'll usually try to bait them into something I can punish, but when I translate this over to falcon or fox, they seem to be able to catch up to me and hit me with an attack (falcon's nair especially). Do I just need better spacing?

I covered this a bit on page 115 in terms of when people start catching on to your dash dancing and try to catch you during your dash. You just have to realize that your playing (hopefully) someone who is just as smart, so naturally they should be able to pick up that your trying to bait them.

It's kind of easy for Falcon to do it without even realizing it since his shffl goes so far. While spacing is vital, I think you just need to watch your opponent and react better. If you go to dash away and see the Falcon come flying in with a nair you need to know if it's going to hit you or not. If not you dash back in and grab, if it will then you need to either shield, cc grab, dash forward aerial, etc. Don't just mindlessly be thinking about baiting for grabs. CCing (hopefully to grab) during your dash dances when you see your opponent actually going to shffl on top of you helps a lot. And when they try dashing after you and grabbing it's really a matter of paying attention and grabbing them first.

 

[Smash G 0 D]

Arc, you're a mod now? Nice

Falcon - Space your Fairs. SHDFairs, moving forward on the first and back on the second, makes for good shield pressure. Also, SHNairs can really screw Falcon in the SH Air game because you outrange/prioritize him. When Falcon is off the stage, he's dead meat. Just run-off Untip Fair him (untipped send them forward instead of up) and he's gone. If you get hit by UpB, DI into the stage, tech the stage and instantly do another Fair. If he's too high above you to do the Fair, then fall and time/space an UpB so that Falcon is hit on the backslash at the end of the move. This way he'll be sent backwards, and be left with no means of recovery.

 

[Milos]

i just turn super saiyan and then it really makes **** a lot easier i promise

gimp falcon's ****

near the ledge, with your back facing, down throw, turn around down tilt. if they tech in place or towards the ledge or dont tech at all the dtilt sets them up perfectly for edgeguarding. if they tech back towards the stage, turn around and regrab. m2k does this frame perfectly, so can you (lol). really useful against spacies and falcon particularly, but really any character who's forced to tech from marth's dthrow, though the timing may very based on falling speed.

once you have falcon off the ledge, drop zone fair works nice, if they double jump back to avoid it, just dont fair and double jump really quickly to meet them wherever they try to escape to.

falcon off the edge should always [/stock]

 

[Europhoria]

M2K told me that if they DI towards you out of the d-throw and tech towards you they go out of your re-grab range. But I forget if that was just Falco, or all 3 fast fallers. Falcon's pretty slow so you probably have time to move and re-grab.

 

[Aesir]

M2K told me that if they DI towards you out of the d-throw and tech towards you they go out of your re-grab range. But I forget if that was just Falco, or all 3 fast fallers. Falcon's pretty slow so you probably have time to move and re-grab.

I think it's just falco, I've never really experienced this against fox, only rarely. Or perhaps fox is just less noticeable? I don't know.

you should always be able to react to falcons techs, unless you're just to lazy to care.

 

[Europhoria]

you should always be able to react to falcons techs, unless you're just to lazy to care.

Ding. But really, I'm pretty sure it works for Fox too. I'll ask RaynEX to test it with me

 

[DJMirror]

How do marth combo Falcon

what can i do if falcon is at a low percentage

what do i do in this match up


thank you

 

[DippnDots]

Hey guys, another marth Q. Im enjoying playing this guy a lot.

What percent do you not want to let people get past? Like, at what point can you no longer combo into a tipper if they DI correctly? I know it'll probably be different for people so around what percents for...

Fox, Falcon, Sheik, Peach.

Thanks again, any additional input appreciated.

 

[-ACE-]

Don't let sheik get past 90

 

[Aesir]

Generally speaking if I grab, fox, falco, falcon and they didn't die I did something wrong.

If sheik is on the stage at 120+ (I'm being very liberal here.) you did something wrong.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Good**** arc on being a mod lol. Sorry to disrupt the discussion lol

dont infracte me lol

 

[Cosmo!]

Generally speaking if I grab [falcon] and they didn't die I did something wrong.

I would like to see vids of ur marth taking falcons to death out of 1 grab at any% please k thanks

 

[JBM falcon08]

yeah falcon doesn't generally die from one grab. fox falco i agree with.

here is a ? for the marth boards. should you even go marth vs a sheik? seriously, the matchup is lame you can't mess up at all or have ANY bad habits or your absolutely ****ed.

 

[Smash G 0 D]

I'll go Marth vs Sheik

I just don't mess up/have bad habits :]

Other Marth players should do the same

 

[AlcyoNite]

I'll go Marth vs Sheik

I just don't mess up/have bad habits :]

Other Marth players should do the same

This doesnt help at all. But also, i would like to second this question with: how do you kill a sheik without bringing her above 90? its already one-sided in that she basically ***** you for your mistakes and if she doesnt make any, then you're virtually ****ed.

and: cosmo, could you not have that sig?

 

[Tero.]

This doesnt help at all. But also, i would like to second this question with: how do you kill a sheik without bringing her above 90? its already one-sided in that she basically ***** you for your mistakes and if she doesnt make any, then you're virtually ****ed.

and: cosmo, could you not have that sig?

Get her offstage at any percent, edgehog, waveland tipper repeat.

 

[AlcyoNite]

Get her offstage at any percent, edgehog, waveland tipper repeat.

this makes me question why i always roll on instead of perfect wavelanding. ken used to do it vs kdj, but i guess thats outdated. thanks

 

[KAOSTAR]

I would like to see vids of ur marth taking falcons to death out of 1 grab at any% please k thanks

To be honest, its not that hard tho.

Against good players it can still be done. Obviously its not a guarantee but for sure if u get him off the stage you should get the kill.

All you have to do is throw in unexpected ****.

You can do like fthrow x3 and on the third one do a side B reset regrab and then fthrow dtilt edgeguard.

like I said this is never 100 percent but its not unheard of in this matchup. Falcon is an easy tech chase. Often down throws [back to the ledge] with tech chase fsmash can get u up a stock quickly.

 

[Miggz]

This doesnt help at all. But also, i would like to second this question with: how do you kill a sheik without bringing her above 90? its already one-sided in that she basically ***** you for your mistakes and if she doesnt make any, then you're virtually ****ed.

You basically get an up throw and rely on up tilt/uair ****. Then you use your fairs and bairs to knock Sheik towards the edge. You basically want to rack up damage and hit her towards the edge all while airborne. Sheik doesn't have any real priority when Marth is directly underneath her.

 

[AlcyoNite]

You basically get an up throw and rely on up tilt/uair ****. Then you use your fairs and bairs to knock Sheik towards the edge. You basically want to rack up damage and hit her towards the edge all while airborne. Sheik doesn't have any real priority when Marth is directly underneath her.

i never thought of it this way.

 

[JBM falcon08]

I'll go Marth vs Sheik

I just don't mess up/have bad habits :]

Other Marth players should do the same

hahaha, funny.

that is so awful.

 

[cykofox]

smash god = troll?

 

[DippnDots]

ajflksdjfklsjgklsjgklsjg

 

[ArcNatural]

I go Marth vs Sheik simply because even though it's Marth's worst matchup I still do the best as Marth than anyone else. The matchup isn't even a factor until really high levels of play imo. I always consider that M2k could beat any Sheik I play probably by 4 stocks. I always feel like the matchup isn't that bad unless I'm playing someone I would probably lose to anyway.

 

[Smash G 0 D]

Quite the contrary, CykoFox.

Saying that you should work on consistency as to not make as many mistakes is actually legit advice.

In my humble opinion, being efficient with Marth is the most important thing. You must work on consistency as well. Practice and don't make mistakes. This seems like obvious information, but several players actually don't follow it. They work more on situational tactics instead of focusing on solid consistency with not getting hits/landing hits.

As for killing Sheik below 90% - it's pretty difficult. You'll have to gimp or tipper.

In an actual tourney I'd go Luigi vs Sheik if they beat my Marth.

 

[AlcyoNite]

Quite the contrary, CykoFox.

Saying that you should work on consistency as to not make as many mistakes is actually legit advice.

In my humble opinion, being efficient with Marth is the most important thing. You must work on consistency as well. Practice and don't make mistakes. This seems like obvious information, but several players actually don't follow it. They work more on situational tactics instead of focusing on solid consistency with not getting hits/landing hits.

As for killing Sheik below 90% - it's pretty difficult. You'll have to gimp or tipper.

In an actual tourney I'd go Luigi vs Sheik if they beat my Marth.

I definitely get what you're saying. only, efficiency implies basically only putting in what will give you something beneficial in return without mistakes or extraneous action. What discomforts me is that I never quite know what im looking for (the tactical aspect of the matchup). I feel like marth v sheik is 80% camping, until you get a grab or tippered fair, but how do you go about getting this? i always compare this matchup to vs fox, where you basically avoid the shine (f-tilt) and grabs, but the camping in between is used to bait the fox into a careless error. BUT vs sheik, your camping must be efficient (as you say); so,

what constitutes efficient play vs sheik?

 

[DippnDots]

They work more on situational tactics instead of focusing on solid consistency with not getting hits/landing hits.

Here ya go crystal. Efficiency, maximizing gain and making losses minimal, getting hits in without taking hits.

 

[Smash G 0 D]

Efficient play against Sheik is, like you said, a lot of camping.

This is why Sheik is such a difficult matchup for Marth. If you get shield-grabbed it's an auto-combo for Sheik, so you've got to make sure she's always a jab-space away (your jab). Whenever you get an opportunity for a grab, use it. It's free spacing and free damage. Uthrow around 30% leads to an Utilt. Dthrow Fthrow or Bthrow at the edge (whichever throws them off, preferably Dthrow if that's a choice) never hurts. It's basic things like this that you have to build off of.

When you're being careful and taking the opportunities you have, Sheik's damage will go up. That's when you can kill.