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Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

D

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Do you think you can be a little more specific on my bad decision making (I'm not trying to be defensive; genuinely want to know so I can work on it). The death at 30% was kind of silly; looking at it I probably meant to double jump to the top platform and gimmick around as a means to wear off his invincibility but he called me out on it and I also double jumped way too early.

I'll admit that I'm not exactly confident in my Marth ditto strategy being any good... Marth can't play like he can vs other characters with his "aggressive zoning" kind of thing because he doesn't hold a range advantage in the ditto. So I feel like I have to play kind of janky and rely on reads to establish any sort of winning position or first hit.

As for shield camping at the ledge; being fthrown off (even if you know it's coming and you DI so you don't get fsmashed or something silly) isn't exactly a good thing for Marth... I don't see why shield camping would be a good idea? You still are put in a position to recover and the opponent is still put in a position to edgeguard.

And can you elaborate on how Marth can abuse himself on Battlefield? I'm not sure how it differs from other stages too much; I actually like Battlefield a lot compared to DL and FoD.
excellent.

the bad decision-making is in regards to your choices and timing. in almost every instance, you act preemptively without needing to act, you can simply wait because of the situation. for example, missed drop off bair edge guards. upthrow > upair combos that your opponent can jump out of and don't actually combo. more obvious examples include forward throw > missed fsmash or the blind dash attack. not only are these awful, they're particularly exploitable by you, the other player because of how bad they are. your play is sub-optimal in part because you're doing them, and in part because you're not punishing them from your opponent. i watched the rest of the marth dittos to confirm it.

If the marth is bad, his range doesn't matter. it just doesn't. my ness could out space the marth play in these videos. that's not to be insulting to you and i probably wouldn't win, but it's to make a point; when marth does something bad, it's REALLY BAD because of his holes once you exit the neutral game and how bad he is defensively once put into a bad position. if fox gets into a bad position, he can shine or jump away or something and the problem is solved. if marth is put into a bad position, he's usually there until he's dead. playing marth correctly does require some reads, but the same could be said of any character. as you get higher into play, sometimes your opponents are so good and something happens and you just have to guess. this is NOT the standard situation though. almost all of marth's problems can be solved by moving in ways that are difficult for the opponent to deal with. that means not much shielding, not landing on peach's shield, etc. most of this stuff has been beaten to death since apex in this thread.

being fthrown at the edge in the marth ditto isn't threatening in any way unless you suck at DI. you can DI off every time and grab the edge or 2nd jump grab the edge under marth's hitboxes, at which point you get a free waveland up invincible from the edge. that means that your opponent is either killing you 4% at a time, or much more likely they're going to **** up and you can do something that's actually threatening. a LOT of marth's things are not threatening in any way when not used correctly. for example, go back and open the link to that video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzpgVwvGwoU#t=47m

go to 47:18 ish you get up and the opposing marth grabs you and forward throws you. this essentially says "ok, you're at a disadvantage, and if i can keep you there, you're dead". and then the first thing he does is whiff a fair at you, and suddenly he is no longer a threat to you. this is bad because he never had any interest in keeping you in a bad position until you're dead, he basically just let you go for free. it's just not threatening, but still very exploitable for you because now you know that by DIing the way you would be anyway, he'll basically NEVER kill you off the side unless he gets lucky or surprises you or something jank. removing this stuff from your game play and leaving the threatening aspects of marth's game make him very dangerous very quickly. let's make a comparison:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBMgkr-s4jI

let's be academic and just take the first stock. this first stock is not particularly great, but the context is so true it doesn't even matter. you can watch the neutral game until the conversion, which is a fthrow @ 2:24. armada correctly DIs to the edge. however, kevin doesn't blindly swing here. he basically says to peach "ok, i have you by the edge, and now i'm going to keep you in a bad position until you die". and for the entire rest of that stock, the marth remains in control simply by reacting. every time peach says "check?", marth reacts with an answer. the most important thing to note here is that he's threatening without swinging the sword. this is what good marth play looks like. you can establish a positional advantage at almost any time just by grabbing and putting the opponent in a gay position. no follow-up is necessary. most of the time, you can just upthrow marth in the mirror and abuse the fact that he sucks at landing until you kill him with whatever you want. once you "get it" it really is that easy.

i'd take fountain over battlefield any day. marth has the same problem on BF that he does on DL64: he's not threatening to an opponent on the top platform at all. at all, he has nothing. next time you play a marth ditto, just light shield on the top platform, angle the shield as necessary, and shield DI so you slide off the platform sometimes. he absolutely can't do anything to himself. in many cases, i take the marth ditto to DL64 assuming that my opponent will suck and that i'll get the first kill, and from there i'll just stall and make easy trades OOS because of how little he can do about it. seriously, half an hour. he has no pressure with mid-air swings in the neutral game (part of why blind nair/dash attack are so bad) and you can just exploit that. seriously, practice it for 30 minutes. it should be really easy given your technical ability. trial + error through it.

bones: i only go to events now when my friends invite me. i don't particularly like the MD/VA scene.

edit: the non-melee player nailed everything. lmao
 

AustinRC

Smash Lord
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Get out spaced by Umbreon's Ness! Is it odd that's the only thing I took from that entire message? Meh oh well....
 

MT_

Smash Ace
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Just wanted to thank you guys (clowsui and Umbreon) in advance for the detailed posts. I'm short on time and it will take me a bit to absorb/process the information presented but for now I just wanted to show my appreciate for the input.

Also just for the record I 3-stocked Hbox's Ness during my MM with him :troll: (come to think of it I definitely played a lot slower against him and waited/reacted more because Ness is such a bad character lol).
 

MT_

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Noob question for you guys, what is this kind of movement called and how do you do it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=p5oaMh07TfI#t=713s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=p5oaMh07TfI#t=411s

I see PewPewU use it a lot. I think Dr. PeePee did it once in the Apex GFs, and I vaguely remember prog calling it sticky walk or something...
You actually linked to two different kinds of movement. The first link is what Arc said; you dash the opposite direction of where you had some momentum (usually a wavedash or walk); in this case PewPewU then dashdanced back into the grab.

The second link is a moonwalk. Marth can't get backwards motion from a moonwalk standing still, but it's possible to get a decent amount of distance if you do the moonwalk from walk or wavedash (having momentum). This is done by dashing the opposite direction of your momentum and then quickly doing a half circle to the right (you MUST hit the down input on the way there). Takes some practice but it's pretty cool looking.
 

AceDudeyeah

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Anyone happen to know the frame difference between a frame perfect SHFFL Nair and a frame perfect SH Auto-cancel nair? Which one is faster?

More importantly, are there any other properties that distinguish them other than a simple frame advantage? (Could just be me, but I find dashing behind me takes longer to start up than dashing forward after an l-canceled aerial but either direction is identical after an auto-cancel)
 

Dr Peepee

Thanks for Everything <3
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I THINK AC Nair comes out faster and has less lag on it but that doesn't make it always strictly better than SHFFL Nair(just usually imo lol.)

I think it may take a frame or something to turn around? Not sure. Could also be muscle memory.
 
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Anyone happen to know the frame difference between a frame perfect SHFFL Nair and a frame perfect SH Auto-cancel nair? Which one is faster?

More importantly, are there any other properties that distinguish them other than a simple frame advantage? (Could just be me, but I find dashing behind me takes longer to start up than dashing forward after an l-canceled aerial but either direction is identical after an auto-cancel)
Faster in what duration or execution? Perhaps landing lag?

You can fast fall and still get Nair to auto-cancel, you just have to activate it a bit earlier. The downside to this is that Nair doesn't hit as low to the ground as a waiting a bit longer.

The AC nair w/ FF will always end faster than a Lcancel Nair w/FF.
The AC nair w/ FF will hit higher than a Lcancel Nair w/ FF.
The AC nair w/o FF will hit all heights, but be much slower than a l-cancel nair w/ff.

Addtionally, the problem you notice with dash back than dash forward likely what PP said. It takes a whole frame to turn-around before any action takes place.
 

Bing

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As an aggro Fox main who secondaries Marth, I find it a bit difficult to make the switch to Marth because of the Vastly different styles. I generally make it work. I find that every match up is easier with Marth because of his ability to control the stage and effectively edge guard. That write up from Umbreon was pretty helpful too.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
the fun part is that I used to be a very successful fox player for tournaments when i played and now i find it difficult to play fox while marth is still very easy to me.
 

Bing

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Well whats nice is that my main competition is a Fox main(Niko_K) with an almost identical style, the only difference is that he's a bit more technical and my Fox is a little on the "Cheeky" side. So basically I can predict his actions fairly easily.
 

BTmoney

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Funny how I started taking Umbreon's advice and I started losing lol. Looks like I'm reverting to falcon & sheik.

I agree with most everything him and pp have said but when I attempt to apply it, things don't work out. I find myself struggling as if I set myself a year back.

Marth used to be my cop out character to win with less effort because like you said it is easy to control the stage with Marth. I just lost that ability from not playing him enough I guess.
:phone:
 

Bing

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Well the thing with any character is that if you change your style/movement/actions in general its going to take time to properly adapt. Sometimes you have to get worse before you can get better. You can read posts from intelligent players all day long, its still going to take time for you to figure out how to properly impliment them into your strategy.
 

Dr Peepee

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I'm mad at max for never sending me his words =(

I feel a very curious tendency to "stop and start" when I feel like I want to do well with Marth and that same notion is reflected when I do well.

This is the beginning of an idea I'm having, but I thought I'd post it here for discussion or at least have to remember if they want to.
 

ShroudedOne

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The Marth boards definitely need some kind of hero, lol. Dunno about them deserving it, but at least it's not the old Marth boards.

Stop and start? I couldn't even hazard a guess as to what you mean (not one I'd feel confident in), so you're probably going to have to elaborate.
 

Dr Peepee

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It's mostly a timing mixup. A lot of people when they get momentum keep swinging, and then later as people get better they seem to stop more after starting to attack and that rewards them or at least keeps them safe.

Marth feels like he needs to do this several times over and over, even within one neutral exchange to be successful.

Just a feeling I have. I dunno how I'll think of this by the time I'm done with it.
 
D

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chi have i ever told you how perfect you are?

it's almost like you're Power Level :Asian

when you actually start playing, you're leaving the midwest right? my inner economist sees a huge potential waste otherwise.

edit:

Funny how I started taking Umbreon's advice and I started losing lol. Looks like I'm reverting to falcon & sheik.

I agree with most everything him and pp have said but when I attempt to apply it, things don't work out. I find myself struggling as if I set myself a year back.

Marth used to be my cop out character to win with less effort because like you said it is easy to control the stage with Marth. I just lost that ability from not playing him enough I guess.
Application of theory is not an easy thing to do. Even if you're applying the theory correctly (big assumption) you are still not as familiar with your suggested line of actions as your opponent is with theirs. It really is setting yourself back to rebuild.

What I'm suggesting is a generalized base line. Exceptions and judgment calls exist and they're not easy to make. You get used to it once you start figuring it out. Don't switch. Play more, learn more, win more.

edit 2:

marth's nair is a good way to get ***** if you're a bad player.

assuming you're using it correctly, nair is the best replacement marth has when he needs a move that stays out and the opponent can't exploit it for some reason. this includes being too hurt to crouch not enough room to dashgrab it, working on a frame trap for a tech roll, etc. it happens so infrequently or the set-ups are so intricate when they are correctly done that i feel okay just telling people to not use it.
 

Bones0

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Well I was asking because I rarely use it (I use it pretty frequently in combos though; not sure what people think of that), so I guess I won't focus too much on it then. It just seems like such a great move on paper...
 

BTmoney

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Wise and, probably incorrectly perceived, warm words from Umbreon.

Yeah losing is frustrating especially to people you know you are better than especially when you play other characters much better.

I am not understanding what the debate is with nair. Are you saying to use fair in most all situations where you would think about nairing?

Here I was thinking I didn't nair enough.
 
D

Deleted member

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no, you shouldn't sub in fair either. i'm not telling you to do "A instead of B", I'm telling you to "just don't use B lol".

edit: it's been a few hours and i've been thinking on it and i feel the need to add a little bit more about myself.

i've taught a handful of people some stuff about this game, but i'm very selective about the people that i teach. this is most based on their attributes with learning more than my opinions about them (although i have come to highly respect each of them over time).

i see a lot of people trying new things and testing. for the most part, their testing isn't done correctly and leads to some kind of frustration- which usually ends up on smashboards of course. a lot of the time, people shoot down test ideas on principle rather than examining the basis of why something matters. this leads to an extensive type of testing based on trial and error despite the player having better tools available to them over time because of the gained experience. but that doesn't really matter here.

usually what happens is that the skepticism is punished at lower level play but is rewarded later at higher level play. very often, players get stuck in a mindset that offers short-term benefits but they peak out or hit some kind of invisible ceiling upon reaching mid-level play, give or take. this changes from player to player, but anymore it seems that the plateau is right before players start to do well in the bracket. in my time, it was maybe halfway into the bracket instead, but the good players have gotten better while the bad players are still the same.

this basically means that there are big skill gaps in high level play. it's why players like me were able to hit tier 2 player status but stopped cold in their quest for self-improvement. it's only in retrospect that i am able to see the correct path having experienced the frustrating pit-falls of a blind, trial and error based method of learning.

knowing this, i will say that a lot of players start knowing things due to the experience they have, whatever that may be or however correct (usually incorrect) their conclusions are. this leads them to thinking they know the answers to other things that they are not familiar with.

it is usually better when learning to willingly suspend all disbeliefs in the name of potential gain, and after taking in some information, you are able to check its validity yourself. focus on the long term goals and play for self-improvement rather than playing for the short term rewards. without using this type of deliberate learning, my advice will probably not be helpful to you.
 

Ziodyne

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umbreon's advice honestly never feels that abrasive to me

in fact, it generally feels very well tailored to helping out aspiring players learn yet somehow retain some semblance of confidence
 

SonuvaBeach

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very often, players get stuck in a mindset that offers short-term benefits but they peak out or hit some kind of invisible ceiling upon reaching mid-level play, give or take. this changes from player to player, but anymore it seems that the plateau is right before players start to do well in the bracket. in my time, it was maybe halfway into the bracket instead, but the good players have gotten better while the bad players are still the same.

this basically means that there are big skill gaps in high level play. it's why players like me were able to hit tier 2 player status but stopped cold in their quest for self-improvement. it's only in retrospect that i am able to see the correct path having experienced the frustrating pit-falls of a blind, trial and error based method of learning.

it is usually better when learning to willingly suspend all disbeliefs in the name of potential gain, and after taking in some information, you are able to check its validity yourself. focus on the long term goals and play for self-improvement rather than playing for the short term rewards. without using this type of deliberate learning, my advice will probably not be helpful to you.
As a player who consistently has gotten 13-17th in every 30-60 man tourny for a year now, this hit really close to home.

I need to change something about the way I play, because my improvement has slowed drastically relative to how long I've been playing.

good post & thanks umbreon.
 

BTmoney

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I never found Umbreon's offensive lol.

But you are the reason I am going to continue to play Marth. I would dignify your post and perspective with a quality response but it is almost 4:00am and I have class.

I've quickly come to respect and appreciate your opinion. Every character thread needs an Umbreon. I'm going to play some matches tomorrow and Friday against actual good people in the Ohio scene and I'll come back here. I'll suffer some ugly losses with faith I will improve.
I'm going to be asking you some sheik stuff in the future as well, coach. If you're willing to help I'll be pm'ing you in the future.

:phone:
 
D

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i've gotten an unusual amount of requests for coaching lately. right now i'm not looking for a student because i'm still working with kevin. or was prior to apex anyway. there's been a lull since then for a few reasons like school starting up, car shopping (i totalled my car on the way home from apex), kirbykaze disappearing, etc. i have no problem giving advice and i'd like to learn more about sheik too since i'm bad at her but love the character. but i can't promise the same input of properly teaching someone else when my heart's not into it.

i really haven't been feeling anything lately actually. idk what it is. maybe it's cabin fever or something. cold weather sucks.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
why, to reduce his assumed 100% win rate against m2k?

i don't particularly like that i've helped two top 5 players. i really wanted to be on stage for kevin against jason but ultimately didn't feel comfortable taking inui's spot as an insult to kevin even though lucas graciously offered me the spot anyway.

edit: tbh i kinda wished m2k still sucked, i got to play him more when we went to the same events lol
 

Bones0

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why, to reduce his assumed 100% win rate against m2k?

i don't particularly like that i've helped two top 5 players. i really wanted to be on stage for kevin against jason but ultimately didn't feel comfortable taking inui's spot as an insult to kevin even though lucas graciously offered me the spot anyway.

edit: tbh i kinda wished m2k still sucked, i got to play him more when we went to the same events lol
If he stopped losing on PS, maybe he wouldn't have to be clutch as **** on FD all the time. (Oh god, so clutch...)
 
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Didn't Umbreon have a lot people dislike what he said on various other places? Its like this the only place I do not see it. Perhaps a change of pace on how one is wording arguments?
 

clowsui

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Max has made an effort to be a little more detailed and didactic in his approach. You'll notice that his aloofness and general dislike of bull**** shows through when he leaves the thread alone for a while (though he doesn't always leave a crabby post beforehand, making it unclear when he doesn't post out of real life difficulties and when he doesn't post due to aforementioned reason).

:phone:
 

clowsui

Smash Legend
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Pewpewu did amazing tonight. With a tiny bit more polish he'd easily be the best marth main out there. M2k and PP don't count in my opinion because marth isn't really their sole main. However after ppu gets more exp it won't matter. Winning a tournament like that with marth is quite the feat! Great **** man, mad respect!

:phone:
Austin I love you but I'll have to disagree with you on this one. PP has every right to count because he can be and is actually a winner with Marth.

Apex will vindicate me.
Double post but

I called it. :cool: PP didn't win but he got a set. Close enough
 

AceDudeyeah

Smash Ace
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Trying to find videos of umbreon's gameplay, so I can watch the philosophy in action, but can't find any videos. What's his smash tag in tourneys?
 
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