Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Dr Peepee]

Hey PP, huge props on your win at Apex! I had a question about your amazing Marth vs. Peach games with Armada. While more contemporary matchup theory dictates that Marth should upthrow (and I remember watching you vs. peach in the past doing this) and try to cover Peach as she tries to land. At Apex, it seems that you really rewrote the books on the grab game, going almost exclusively for mixups between fthrow, dthrow, and even back throw. I think you might have only thrown up once or twice, including that really high % upthrow on Pokemon. Can you expand on your thought process behind that? And did it have anything to do with how well PPU dealt with Hbox in a similar fashion at the same tourney?

thanks!

fthrow= put her offstage so she has less recovery options(easier to cover and react). lower percent stuff i have to look into more maybe.

dthrow= same as fthrow basically.

bthrow= she doesn't go as high as fthrow so less options and chances for mixups. she also can be close to platforms which makes her option have to be chosen quickly or im on a platform near her and can hit her easily.


ppu did his work separately from me but he mostly put arc's/kadano's throw stuff to the test afaik.

 

[ShroudedOne]

You seemed to be using a lot more non-upthrow throws this time around in general. It's really annoying when Marth does that because of how strong his throw mixups are, but when the whole Marth craze was just starting, we were thinking "just upthrow." Kinda interesting how that's happened.

 

[heyitshoward]

when would you opt to use uthrow over a side throw then? am i correct in thinking that it might be better to use uthrow around low and mid percents to juggle her since she has such a difficult time coming down on marth and favor side throws at higher percents to corner her/force her offstage where i can try to get a kill?

 

[Dr Peepee]

uthrow is easier to follow up on for some stages than others(don't do this on DL when possible lol). i like side throws more just because tech chase reactions are pretty easy on peach. if you get peach on the edge it should still be easier to hit/kill her than when she's in the air since she has more trade and movement options but that depends on how you work on juggling vs edgeguarding skills imo. uthrow can have a bit more of a psychological advantage because they have to struggle to get down if you care for that sort of thing.

mid percent side throws allow knockdowns/edgeguards or combos depending on DI and beyond like 6-8% before throw the side ones knock down. so you might not actually need uthrow much at all vs peach but there are probably some other mixups I could look at.

 

[heyitshoward]

Interesting. So previously (and I'm just going off recollection here, so my memory may be flawed) I think uthrow featured much more heavily in your games vs Armada. So what changed? Did you have a personal development in some area that improved your followups and tools from side throws, or do you think side throws are just (generally) superior in the matchup?

 

[Deleted member]

its much more about whatever you want your throws to do for you. upthrow is a good default throw because its instant positional advantage and forces your opponent to do something great to get out of a bad situation in a sort of easy and immediate way. however, if you think another throw is better for whatever offhanded reason by all means go for it. its kinda like how i tell marths to just not use nair at all because its easy to punish with ground movement but kevin had some really excellent nairs against fox despite that because almost none of them were done when the fox had access to a dash. you just have to evaluate what your tools can do for you and use your thinking human brain to arrive at a conclusion. the shortcuts we use are a nice way to make early strides in improvement, but once you get pretty good at the game you really should go back and take a second look.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Interesting. So previously (and I'm just going off recollection here, so my memory may be flawed) I think uthrow featured much more heavily in your games vs Armada. So what changed? Did you have a personal development in some area that improved your followups and tools from side throws, or do you think side throws are just (generally) superior in the matchup?

I tested it a lot experimentally when Twitch picked up Peach to help me in the matchup in December and I just found way more instant results. I can tech chase pretty well most of the time and again Peach's tech stuff isn't broken so it worked really well.

The reason I went back and re-evaluated things like my throw game was because I realized I was bad vs Peach with both of my characters lol. Especially Marth. I went back and did a ton of theory work and video watching of my play vs Armada and Twitch and decided the throws would be something I would change for easier conversions. Marth gets lots of mileage off of tech chasing in general but you have to know % ranges and such really well.

 

[Deleted member]

^ this

if youre a mid level player and want to make top 8, you NEED to sit down and do lab work to optimize your punishment game. letting your opponent reset to neutral is forfeiting win margin in fat chunks. movement is great sure but killing the opponent is hilariously underrated.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Still trying to become a mid-level player #TheStruggle

 

[MookieRah]

@PPMD
Regarding the throw thing, I noticed that you also made lots of fthrow and bthrows against Leffen's and Armada's Foxes. You would do that even when the uthrow would have been a guaranteed conversion on a platform (aka free uair possibly more). I know some of the time you were going for early edgeguard attempts, but I'm curious as to why you made those choices.

Honestly I found this to be much weirder than the lack of uthrows on Peach, cause it seemed like your goal in that match was to always hold stage control, and using throws for positioning is kinda boss at that for floaties.

 

[Dr Peepee]

@PPMD
Regarding the throw thing, I noticed that you also made lots of fthrow and bthrows against Leffen's and Armada's Foxes. You would do that even when the uthrow would have been a guaranteed conversion on a platform (aka free uair possibly more). I know some of the time you were going for early edgeguard attempts, but I'm curious as to why you made those choices.

Honestly I found this to be much weirder than the lack of uthrows on Peach, cause it seemed like your goal in that match was to always hold stage control, and using throws for positioning is kinda boss at that for floaties.

I agree, these choices do seem weirder. However I have good reasons.

I often did these throws at low percents because Marth cannot get into reasonable conversion places(the drift vs FF Uair seen in Kadano's thread mainly) on platforms when he doesn't have time to move. Basically what I'm saying is I CAN hit them once maybe twice if at all if I uthrow them on platforms at low percent, but I would rather be able to hit them until they died from a platform hit =p Anyway, side throw tech chasing is pretty much always possible at the useful percents and helps rack up percent so guaranteed platform combos can be assured.

Btw, it is true that positional advantage should I mess up is relevant here. It is also true that tech rolling away toward the edge won't let your character go too far away so the options become easier to react to at that point.

 

[Espi]

How does U Throw to Uptilt work in Marth dittos? Is it guaranteed? Only at certain %?

 

[Dr Peepee]

info is in kadano's thread in this subforum!

 

[EZPZ]

"An alternate method of juking was during a dash dance, while dashing away, wavedash backwards toward the opponent, then dash away and stall, then straight dash toward them and grab. It looks like you teleport grab because of how quick it can be." - Cactuar

For some unknown reason I just cannot work out what exactly this is. I know what everything indiviually means but maybe it's the way it's worded or something but I just can't picture it. Does a gif of this exist or can someone show me a match where this is done.

 

[tonic]

That's funny, PP used that so much during his sets vs Armada and Leffen's foxes. I can't access videos right now but if you go back look closely each time PP got a dashdance grab.

 

[Nicholas1024]

Is there a post somewhere that details the basics on how to F-throw/D-throw tech chase with Marth? I feel like that's the weakest part of my punish game at the moment, as I don't know what I should be reacting to and when (if ever) it's appropriate to go for a read.

 

[MookieRah]

@NIcholas:
Get the 20XX mod and practice on bots. Their behaviors are inherently random, so it's very good for learning the basics.

@ Dr Peepee
Do you have a formula for tech chasing characters? Before my hiatus I was trying to determine the most optimal set of movements in order to be able to tech chase on any option my opponent made, and I'm wondering if you have a system (that you'd be willing to share of course).

 

[miketyson]

Im a garbage player but I was wondering about what is the fastest way to d-tilt out of a dash, do you go from dash(stick fully to the right), to neutral (let go of the stick for fraction of a second), to crouch, OR do you just do you just go from dash and do a quarter circle down with the stick? i assume when I dash attack im just pressing A too soon? also PP do you normally do the d-tilt out of dash because WDing before is to telegraphed? I mean obviously you shouldnt only use one way, but i was just wonder if you think its generally better to reserve WD out of a dash for more feints and various other things also its good to see someone play textbook marth (imo to many people try to play like mango vs kage at rom 2) i really like the way you move, and avoid over commiting by basically exclusively useing movement -> d tilt or grab in neutral also you falco is dope as hell and I love watching you play and learning from you sorry for being a fan girl but marth and falco are my two favorite characters

 

[Dr Peepee]

@ Dr Peepee
Do you have a formula for tech chasing characters? Before my hiatus I was trying to determine the most optimal set of movements in order to be able to tech chase on any option my opponent made, and I'm wondering if you have a system (that you'd be willing to share of course).

Generally I Dthrow until their percent allows them to be knocked over from Fthrow, then I Fthrow. I do this until I have platform setup %s or an edgeguard ideally. There are a decent amount of exceptions to this but that's the general structure.

Im a garbage player but I was wondering about what is the fastest way to d-tilt out of a dash, do you go from dash(stick fully to the right), to neutral (let go of the stick for fraction of a second), to crouch, OR do you just do you just go from dash and do a quarter circle down with the stick? i assume when I dash attack im just pressing A too soon? also PP do you normally do the d-tilt out of dash because WDing before is to telegraphed? I mean obviously you shouldnt only use one way, but i was just wonder if you think its generally better to reserve WD out of a dash for more feints and various other things also its good to see someone play textbook marth (imo to many people try to play like mango vs kage at rom 2) i really like the way you move, and avoid over commiting by basically exclusively useing movement -> d tilt or grab in neutral also you falco is dope as hell and I love watching you play and learning from you sorry for being a fan girl but marth and falco are my two favorite characters

they take similar amount of frames to come out, dash dtilt vs WD dtilt. the difference is the dash dtilt is usually same spacing and WD you can vary the spacing. so if you need to adjust space then use WD more likely. really though you get awesome mixups out of doing either in an approaching sense so that's not a big deal.

basically what im saying is WD dtilt and dash dtilt are a bit different but you also need to be looking at other options out of WD and dash to know when to use one or the other.

 

[lokt]

Generally I Dthrow until their percent allows them to be knocked over from Fthrow, then I Fthrow. I do this until I have platform setup %s or an edgeguard ideally. There are a decent amount of exceptions to this but that's the general structure.

Could you specify the percentage range you choose to uthrow --> platform tech chase w/ uair against fox/falco? I've been wondering about this for a while but never did the research.

 

[Espi]

Stages against peach? Is Yoshis a counterpick? All other legal stages?

 

[Binx]

Just watch him vs armada at apex and you will see it

 

[Espi]

What is the reasoning behind not CP'ing to Yoshi's? Is it because Peach can reach the top platform? You can kill way earlier too.

 

[Rarik]

What is the reasoning behind not CP'ing to Yoshi's? Is it because Peach can reach the top platform? You can kill way earlier too.

The way I see it is that PPMD is trying to play an incredibly safe and neutral heavy game vs Peach where he uses movement to suffocate Peach's options. Because of this, the large main platforms of FD & PS greatly help help as he always has enough room to move around, and the lack of top platform prevents Peach from escaping a terrible position. It also limits the amount of shield dropping Peach can do to punish aerials While this does let Peach survive to higher percents, the goal with punishing Peach in this playstyle is to simply keep her in a bad spot and just keep her there (through aerials, dtilt, tech chasing, whatever works) until you find an opportunity to get an Up-tilt, a good edgeguard opportunity (such as the situations where Armada had Up-B'ed and had to juke PP's Dilt or die, although I personally believe PP could have handled those opportunities better, but hey, I didn't win Apex ), or eventually Peach gets to a high enough % where your aerials kill. If he had gone to Yoshi's then he no longer has the room to dominate in neutral and gives Peach more opportunities to get in on Marth, and if you're facing Armada that probably means death.

 

[EZPZ]

So is there ever a situation where Back Throw is better than Down Throw

 

[Clebus]

Maybe if it'll get them higher and onto a platform if you want them there.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I actually think Yoshis is an awesome pick vs Peach, but you have to play really differently there as opposed to any other level. Very minimal movement and really focus on outspacing her with sword. Whereas every other level is usually big enough to run more on and abuse speed vs her. I learned how to fight on Yoshis but ended up not using it vs him.

 

[Dart!]

Back throw onto platform tech chase tipper fsmash

 

[EZPZ]

@ Dr Peepee how important/useful do you think shield stopping is? I always hear PewPewU preaching how great shield stop nairs and shield stop fade away fairs are but I feel like I rarely see you use it.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I don't care for it at all. I find positioning with dashes and using aerial drift to position myself just fine. He uses it well and it's an interesting visual cue so it's fine if he uses it. People can use either of our approaches to positioning or a combination and that would be just alright as long as they understood why it worked =)

 

[EZPZ]

That's what I figured thanks for the answer :D

 

[Life]

At today's tournament, I was excited to show up and apply the stuff I'd learned recently, but instead I "went out like a buster" to quote a certain somebody. I'm feeling pretty down and disappointed, having not lived up to my own expectations.

How do y'all deal with stagnation, in-game and out?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Umm... Stop caring about a certain level of success. Only care about correcting a few small details one at a time until they are ironed out. If you get success or no success simply keep at it. At some point days or weeks later you might find yourself pulling things off with ease you had issues with before.

Well, I mean caring in the sense of obsessively thinking about how stuff is going wrong. It distracts from paying attention to the game. You go and miss one l-cancel and forget to pay attention to the fact that you have to DI and tech your punish coming up soon. In which case, you find yourself getting hit by the good old fthrow -> fsmash tipper in marth dittos.

 

[EZPZ]

At today's tournament, I was excited to show up and apply the stuff I'd learned recently, but instead I "went out like a buster" to quote a certain somebody. I'm feeling pretty down and disappointed, having not lived up to my own expectations.

How do y'all deal with stagnation, in-game and out?

I went to my second melee tournament today and feel like I under preformed too. I got 13th out of 29 which isn't awful for my second tourney but I lost to two people I know I could've beaten. I realized I have issues playing against Marth (got eliminated by Marth both tournies) though so I hit up the best Marth in the state on Facebook and he's going to help me practice a bit in the matchup. So I mean I don't have too much experience in melee in particular but for me I feel even when you lose or go out like a buster (in any competitive event) you have to try and notice what you did well as well as what got you beat. Then feel good about what you did right and actively look to improve on what you didn't.

Also don't be afraid to ask questions to the better players in your area or ask them to help you practice. Everyone I have talked to about getting better has been more than welcoming and enjoys helping new players who actively seek improvement.

 

[MookieRah]

To chime in with everyone else, I agree that in the beginning it's not about doing well at a tournament, you should focus on your own improvement. Use your matches to identify your weak areas, and then go back to the lab and practice like crazy. Also, I've come to the conclusion that almost everyone that plays smash doesn't work enough on their tech and execution. So many dropped combos and missed opportunities just because people either *think* their tech is great or think that playing people all the time is the best method. If you can, get 20XX and practice the ever living crap out of common setups. I guarantee that your tech skill and combo game will take a huge leap forward by doing this (and also your learned reaction time).

On another note, I've been analyzing the heck out of PP's vids and made some notes. I was wondering if @Umbreon or someone could verify that these are good things to take away from the vids. Anyways, I'll share them here:


Dash dance camp near the platforms:

When in neutral, stick close to the platforms, and dash dance towards the center. The idea is to get them to pursue you or to commit to something near or inside the platform area, in which it limits their actions and makes Marth’s grab a more powerful option. If they give up their position, obviously pin them under their platform and abuse the advantage.


Dtilt stationary opponents:

If you and your opponent are dash dancing around, be very wary of using the dtilt. They are within range to counter it, and they too are hoping for you to commit to something as well. If they are stationary, for example if they are locked down under a platform with the ledge behind them, then it is more acceptable.


Dtilt as bait:

Knowing the distance that your opponent is effectively able to cover can allow some neat tricks with dtilt. If you throw it out as a fake “commitment” when your opponent is to far away to counter, then it can be highly effective. This is great in neutral, as you are still trying to stay within the safety zone of your platform and not be too over-extended.


Don’t go for the things that are too obvious, or may seem too slow:

Applies mostly to the grab game. If something feels like the timing is not perfect, simply delay the action by running through them, dash dancing away momentarily, or etc. Your opponent will likely take steps to avoid the obvious action, so your delay will allow you to get the grab or etc.


Don’t attack an opponent’s shield when they will obviously default to blocking:

If an opponent is locked down, or perhaps in the middle of a combo, and things reset (not to neutral, but there is a delay) DO NOT continue aggression as if they were still in a combo. Recognize situations in which your opponent will feel forced to shield/be defensive and use an option that will not overly commit. Keep in mind, a grab might be overcommiting here, because if it’s obvious for them to sheild then they may decide to attack instead. In general, go for safe pokes and maintain your positional advantage.


One pummel per throw is fine (Fox/Falco chaingrab):

Despite this not being guaranteed, even Leffen didn’t break out of PP’s throw game when he did this. Be a bit wary in the early percentages, but otherwise one pummel before a throw is fine.


Don’t be overly focused on vertical juggles when juggling an opponent from below the platform:

Most good players will not allow you to juggle them vertically more than a couple of hits, so be aware of this and use their DI against them. Try to attack so that you push them off stage or onto the neighboring platform to continue the combo as well as push them into an edgeguard situation.


Try to end the combo with your opponent off stage:

Unless there is a very exceptional situation, it’s better to end a combo prematurely but use a knockback heavy move if it means it will put them into an edgeguard situation. Generally speaking, the longer a combo goes on, the harder it is to maintain and offers more opportunities your opponent has to escape, so killing a combo to put an opponent in bad position is often better.


Don’t put yourself way out of position when your opponent is invincible:

It seems a better strategy to actually stay just outside their range and occasionally run through them than to play the coward’s game.


When an opponent is locked down, nair becomes an option:

When PP traps an opponent against the ledge, he often uses nair. This is because often they will choose to sheild the attack, and they are no longer able to punish it.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

One pummel per throw is fine (Fox/Falco chaingrab):

Despite this not being guaranteed, even Leffen didn’t break out of PP’s throw game when he did this. Be a bit wary in the early percentages, but otherwise one pummel before a throw is fine.

I had this conversation with someone once before. Against Sheik, her throws are slow enough that one can go from full out mashing to DI on a throw the moment you see an animation getting out. I forget the speed of her pummel compared to Marth, but a singular pummel from Sheik has been enough for me to mash out of throws even up to 40%-50% before they can throw.

Pummeling is risky, but on Marth mashing is risky as well. His throws are fast and difficult to react too. By attempting to mash you can listen to the person's controller and listen for mashing attempts and attempt a throw when you hear mashing to get wrong DI. However, I might be underestimating the ability of players these days to be able to mash effectively and react to throw animations. It is insane to me to think about being able to drop from platform in shield consistently still, but people are doing it now.

 

[MookieRah]

I'm sure it's possible, but at the same time if Leffen didn't do it, then I don't think it's something you have to worry about too much. Besides, if you keep your execution for chain throwing up, it's not that hard to alternate between throwing them a few times without pummel, and pummeling. I even developed a system to randomize when I would pummel, basically if my opponent DI'd behind, I'd pummel, but I wouldn't pummel twice, even if they kept trying to DI behind. I use that system when I practice, as it's an easy way to offload some of the thinking required to "try" to be random.

But yeah, for most people who play this game, one pummel to throw is probably safe.

EDIT: I noticed this after I made the previous post, and it's very important.

Getting pinned against the ledge usually means death:
I watched some vids of myself for comparison and thought, "wow, I get wrecked hard when a Fox traps me under a platform with the ledge behind me." So I looked how that worked out for PP. Very often... he lost a stock, almost regardless of percentage. So DON'T get pinned, and if you do, it's best to just GTFO instead of trying to fight your way out.

I think this is the best tip out of everything I noticed, because not every time it happens was the fault of PP's opponent. I think we all need to be very careful about overextending when we have our opponent's pinned, because it doesn't take much for Fox to gimp Marth once he has no stage to fall back on.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Serious talk now.

@ Dr Peepee
When are you finally going to give up the bird? I mean once you go "greased up man with an enormous stick wearing a tiara" you never go back. I feel you must be in denial about trying to betray the birdman, but lets face it. You can only have one love in life.

This!

Spoiler

or This!

Spoiler

 

[strawhats]

would love to see that, but then PP would have to actually re-practice the puff MU for hbox if he intends to use marth and also learn how to marth vs pikachu/yoshi (for axe/aMSa)

 

[Dr Peepee]

Serious talk now.

@ Dr Peepee
When are you finally going to give up the bird? I mean once you go "greased up man with an enormous stick wearing a tiara" you never go back. I feel you must be in denial about trying to betray the birdman, but lets face it. You can only have one love in life.

This!

Spoiler

or This!

Spoiler

LMFAO

Well I'm honestly pretty character-confused right now. I have/had so much Falco pride because of how well I played him for so long. I can't deny my effectiveness dropped with him ever since Pound 5 though, only to come back up some in summer 2012 and then kinda 2014. I never planned on getting this good with Marth either I think. I just happened to learn a lot of amazing stuff that applied quite well to Marth haha. He just kept growing because I built up a lot with him that kind of built on itself over time and with experience. At this very second, he might be better than my Falco overall(in tournaments). I think my Falco is just as good if not better than my Marth outside of tournaments though, and he's definitely good at pretty much all matchups whereas my Marth still has....I'd say 3-4 matchups he has to learn. Falco will also improve over the coming months because

I have to buckle down and actually seriously consider what type of possibilities open up for me as a true dual-main player though. I think just playing two characters is pretty inefficient and I could probably find strategies to offset my opponents much more if I developed my characters in certain directions. I'll have to think on it. Maybe I'll favor Marth over time. The future is pretty confusing and exciting for me!

would love to see that, but then PP would have to actually re-practice the puff MU for hbox if he intends to use marth and also learn how to marth vs pikachu/yoshi (for axe/aMSa)

I also need to get better at Falco vs Marth from Marth's end. I think I can handle Hbox still even if I miss some throw pivots because I have the edgeguard game pretty solidly down in that matchup. I'm most curious about playing Axe again though after watching many other Marths have more success than me haha.