Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[strawhats]

I heard about what happened when you played marth on FD against Axe @MLG...it's ok. Dat MU is sooo weird.

 

[Big Daddy Josh]

LMFAO

Well I'm honestly pretty character-confused right now. I have/had so much Falco pride because of how well I played him for so long. I can't deny my effectiveness dropped with him ever since Pound 5 though, only to come back up some in summer 2012 and then kinda 2014. I never planned on getting this good with Marth either I think. I just happened to learn a lot of amazing stuff that applied quite well to Marth haha. He just kept growing because I built up a lot with him that kind of built on itself over time and with experience. At this very second, he might be better than my Falco overall(in tournaments). I think my Falco is just as good if not better than my Marth outside of tournaments though, and he's definitely good at pretty much all matchups whereas my Marth still has....I'd say 3-4 matchups he has to learn. Falco will also improve over the coming months because

I have to buckle down and actually seriously consider what type of possibilities open up for me as a true dual-main player though. I think just playing two characters is pretty inefficient and I could probably find strategies to offset my opponents much more if I developed my characters in certain directions. I'll have to think on it. Maybe I'll favor Marth over time. The future is pretty confusing and exciting for me!



I also need to get better at Falco vs Marth from Marth's end. I think I can handle Hbox still even if I miss some throw pivots because I have the edgeguard game pretty solidly down in that matchup. I'm most curious about playing Axe again though after watching many other Marths have more success than me haha.

This is really exciting to hear. I know you probably devoted a lot of time into Falco, and have a lot of pride in being the best Falco main. I don't necessarily think you need to drop him, but dual maining seems to be the new thing. Although you can beat anyone with either character, it could just matter which player you're playing. For instance: M2K and Mango seem to have a hard time with your Falco, and Leffen and Armada have a hard time with your Marth.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

@ Dr Peepee
Well, judging from M2K it does seem possible to maintain multiple characters at an effective level. I do not mean from the standpoint of simply melee, but back when Brawl came out. The idea of playing Melee, Brawl, and P:M in singles and doubles for a time and being able to maintain the composure to keep switching between them all.

I cannot help, but theorize that with enough time and practice you can effectively maintain multiple characters. As in playing multiple characters is merely a skill you have to practice as with anything in this game it seems. How do you get better tech skill? By doing it? Get better match-ups? Play those characters. How do you effectively maintain multiple mains attempt to do it.

It seems simply more effective to maintain a singular main because it is less stuff you have to practice. Simply consider the efforts you put into Falco or Marth at a singular time, but expect to put in the same effort for each. Maybe not in the same quantity, but it merely being a skill you have to polish up on.

 

[Dr Peepee]

@ Dr Peepee
Well, judging from M2K it does seem possible to maintain multiple characters at an effective level. I do not mean from the standpoint of simply melee, but back when Brawl came out. The idea of playing Melee, Brawl, and P:M in singles and doubles for a time and being able to maintain the composure to keep switching between them all.

I cannot help, but theorize that with enough time and practice you can effectively maintain multiple characters. As in playing multiple characters is merely a skill you have to practice as with anything in this game it seems. How do you get better tech skill? By doing it? Get better match-ups? Play those characters. How do you effectively maintain multiple mains attempt to do it.

It seems simply more effective to maintain a singular main because it is less stuff you have to practice. Simply consider the efforts you put into Falco or Marth at a singular time, but expect to put in the same effort for each. Maybe not in the same quantity, but it merely being a skill you have to polish up on.

m2k also won far less in all games splitting time between them....we see this happening now as he plays more smash 4

there are just arguments on both sides. marth and falco are good enough to solo main. they also really work well on the same stages in the same matchups pretty much. I don't believe there is a good argument to play both strictly from an in-game perspective.

if, however, I were to use a more human argument then that could work. for example, suppose I know certain players struggle more vs marth. then I would like to have a marth. suppose I know a player does not like to be locked down. then i would lock them down with falco. in a different vein, if I personally do not have the confidence to get death comboed for little mistakes and want more accident forgiveness in relatively similar matchups, then i could play marth over falco. this is part of why I have marth actually. I make far more punishable mistakes with falco due to my depressed mental lapses and I can get away with it more with marth. this adds up over the course of several games for more chances to get my hits which I can convert off of decently well.

but even this is personally confusing for me since I will not remain in this depressed state so I do not know what functions my characters will serve at that point. I will have to do more research into my own abilities and those of my opponent at that point to determine my next move.


I do not believe one inherently needs two characters to compete at this level, but it has seemed to be handy to cover personal difficulties rather than to take advantage of other opponents' weaknesses. I will be quite interested in how the future counterpicks(or simply strategy counterpicks) play out.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

m2k also won far less in all games splitting time between them....we see this happening now as he plays more smash 4

there are just arguments on both sides. marth and falco are good enough to solo main. they also really work well on the same stages in the same matchups pretty much. I don't believe there is a good argument to play both strictly from an in-game perspective.

if, however, I were to use a more human argument then that could work. for example, suppose I know certain players struggle more vs marth. then I would like to have a marth. suppose I know a player does not like to be locked down. then i would lock them down with falco. in a different vein, if I personally do not have the confidence to get death comboed for little mistakes and want more accident forgiveness in relatively similar matchups, then i could play marth over falco. this is part of why I have marth actually. I make far more punishable mistakes with falco due to my depressed mental lapses and I can get away with it more with marth. this adds up over the course of several games for more chances to get my hits which I can convert off of decently well.

but even this is personally confusing for me since I will not remain in this depressed state so I do not know what functions my characters will serve at that point. I will have to do more research into my own abilities and those of my opponent at that point to determine my next move.


I do not believe one inherently needs two characters to compete at this level, but it has seemed to be handy to cover personal difficulties rather than to take advantage of other opponents' weaknesses. I will be quite interested in how the future counterpicks(or simply strategy counterpicks) play out.

Yeah, I recall m2k having less success overall. I feel that is expected of a person simply does not have the time to commit to everything. However, the point I was getting across was the seeming ability to be able to switch between games which to me is akin to switching between characters.

Personally, I remember having issues with switching between brawl and melee. After doing it for several months it was a rather seamless transition. At the same time trying to switch between say Marth/Falco/Sheik at one point did not feel very inhibiting in anyway. The only issues I felt I had were simply not having the adequate experience with Falco/Sheik. It got me wondering that it should be possible to learn to switch between characters as any other skill set for humans.

I find it sort of hard to believe that Falco/Marth function generally the same. It would seem to me that they take strength from stages in different ways which can enable you to have a more positive match-up favor. For example, despite Marth/Peach being preferred for Marth I would say that Marth vs Peach on DL might be worth considering for use as Falco instead. Mainly I see the benefit of being able to gain slight advantages provided you are not bogged down by more personal issues such as inexperience with a character match-up.

Despite trying to analyze the game for clear reasons to pick something over another I feel the game will always revolve around some amount of exploitation over your opponent and not over the mechanics of the medium. Emotions are part of the experience and something one has to deal with.

However, I suppose this situation might stem to take some amount of research over the Armada vs Hbox situation of Jiggs vs YL. What went into making that decision along with why was it successful at the time.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah, I recall m2k having less success overall. I feel that is expected of a person simply does not have the time to commit to everything. However, the point I was getting across was the seeming ability to be able to switch between games which to me is akin to switching between characters.

Personally, I remember having issues with switching between brawl and melee. After doing it for several months it was a rather seamless transition. At the same time trying to switch between say Marth/Falco/Sheik at one point did not feel very inhibiting in anyway. The only issues I felt I had were simply not having the adequate experience with Falco/Sheik. It got me wondering that it should be possible to learn to switch between characters as any other skill set for humans.

I find it sort of hard to believe that Falco/Marth function generally the same. It would seem to me that they take strength from stages in different ways which can enable you to have a more positive match-up favor. For example, despite Marth/Peach being preferred for Marth I would say that Marth vs Peach on DL might be worth considering for use as Falco instead. Mainly I see the benefit of being able to gain slight advantages provided you are not bogged down by more personal issues such as inexperience with a character match-up.

Despite trying to analyze the game for clear reasons to pick something over another I feel the game will always revolve around some amount of exploitation over your opponent and not over the mechanics of the medium. Emotions are part of the experience and something one has to deal with.

However, I suppose this situation might stem to take some amount of research over the Armada vs Hbox situation of Jiggs vs YL. What went into making that decision along with why was it successful at the time.

Falco is strong on:

PS, FD, perhaps non-DL levels to varying degrees

Marth is strong on:

PS, FD, non-DL levels to varying degrees

(Fox is strongest on YS and DL btw so that actually makes sense in terms of a stage/character CP)

.......

Falco vs Peach is probably better than Marth vs Peach on DL but I ultimately think that if Peach gets one win on Marth in a set then that does not matter much if Marth should win on every other stage. There are probably some character and stage picks that work out better like this in a couple top tier matchups but I don't really know them atm. If they even exist, they probably aren't numerous enough to warrant switching over just getting better at the matchup.

I think "people" read what I say here so I unfortunately cannot give what I believe to be very good reasons why Armada's YL worked out so long. Suffice to say, that type of play is much less likely to work these days, even if I believe if Armada just lamed Hbox out like he used to then he could make YL keep working probably.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Falco is strong on:

PS, FD, perhaps non-DL levels to varying degrees

Marth is strong on:

PS, FD, non-DL levels to varying degrees

(Fox is strongest on YS and DL btw so that actually makes sense in terms of a stage/character CP)

.......

Falco vs Peach is probably better than Marth vs Peach on DL but I ultimately think that if Peach gets one win on Marth in a set then that does not matter much if Marth should win on every other stage. There are probably some character and stage picks that work out better like this in a couple top tier matchups but I don't really know them atm. If they even exist, they probably aren't numerous enough to warrant switching over just getting better at the matchup.

I think "people" read what I say here so I unfortunately cannot give what I believe to be very good reasons why Armada's YL worked out so long. Suffice to say, that type of play is much less likely to work these days, even if I believe if Armada just lamed Hbox out like he used to then he could make YL keep working probably.

I guess I will start out with the end reply first. It seems getting better at the game can take many different forms.

The character gives you tools to work with and puts restrictions on you. I believe you would agree that there are different pinnacles for Mewtwo versus any of the top characters (jiggs, peach, sheik, marth, fox, falco). While you might be able to be a better player on a less tournament viable character I would wager that a person who picks Fox will probably have better "success" at least in terms of tournament placement and overall wins once they keep improving. Does this make either person a worse person for having played a certain character? The person who plays MewTwo can stick it out and learn all they possibly can and improve to be the best they possibly could be. However, there are simply in-game restrictions that you simply cannot overcome. In the end, all I believe a person can find in that sort of path is how to be a better player with simply that character.

Now, I want to tie up the previous idea with my point about possibly using two characters. From Umbreon's thread and yourself (if I recall) overall improvement sort of started with the idea of playing a character that gave you better tools to work with. In this vein, it is on the aspect of improving quickly. In a speed run, great strides are made with large skips. While the fastest and best times come largely in part from the major skips the fine tuning done matters as well. The small changes that add up to giving you a better time. When all major skips are exhausted only the tiny time savers matter. In this same idea I feel a singular main is chosen. It helps you make great strides as a player. However, at your level of play are you finding any great strides that make a difference or is it the small changes that have helped you improve as a player?

Finally, my closing on wrapping up all of this is the idea that maybe at some point you might reach a pinnacle of play with a character. Then, the only alternative is to remove the shackles of any inherent disadvantages and work with as many advantages as you can. When removing bad habits you remove disadvantages your opponent can use against you. While it is possible to do Peach vs Jiggs would you have a greater advantage with YL vs Jiggs? If the idea that FalcovsPeach @ DL > MarthvsPeach @ DL is true, then it would be better to work with more advantages.

In which case, you might become a better player by trying to juggle multiple characters. Isai is pretty respectable and amazing player for utilizing many smash64 characters. Maybe he is not the best at everything, but he is respectable for what he has done. Similar to how I find it respectable and amazing that M2K took the effort to learn Melee, Brawl, P:M, and now Smash4 (maybe more for the money...). However, I have never seen another smash player be as successful in as many smash events at tournaments than M2K. At Apex 2015, 9th Melee Singles, 1st Melee Doubles, 5th Smash4 Singles, 1st Smash4 doubles, 2nd Brawl Doubles. There are more years behind this as well. To me, M2K ranks as the best smash player of all time. Not for how high he ranked on individual cases, but for long he has been playing and the time spent to play all of these games at a high level. He improved as a player not on a singular game, but merely upon many.

I guess in the end my message turned into a multitude of things all at once, but hopefully it gave you some other considerations to double maining. However, all of it will reside upon what you want to do. Do you want to be the best Marth in all match-ups? Maybe the best Falco in all match-ups? Perhaps be the best at both. More than likely some other reason.I have no idea. But, in the end its your ambition and interpretation of what is meant by being a better player and why double maining might be something worth doing.

Edit: I finally found the secret to getting you write more. Catch you after having won a or placing well in a tournament :D

 

[ShroudedOne]

I find it a little odd that you don't seem to really like Falco on DL at all. I always imagined that your style of Falco that was really good with lasers and movement would like that stage, since you've the room to...well, shoot things.

Fox is strongest on YS/DL? In general? Vs Marth? Actually, re-reading that, I assume you're mostly referring to vs Marth. Which also seems rather odd to me, since (speaking generally) it seems that Fox likes room vs Marth.

Just picking out the things that are standing out to me, as I personally don't really think two characters is at all necessary (and I dislike the mentality that you absolutely need a secondary to succeed).

 

[Clebus]

Tbh ill be honest when it comes to marth vs fox its all about the neutral game more so than punishes and if a marth wants more space for the netural game then a big stage can work just spittin tha truf

 

[Dr Peepee]

I find it a little odd that you don't seem to really like Falco on DL at all. I always imagined that your style of Falco that was really good with lasers and movement would like that stage, since you've the room to...well, shoot things.

Fox is strongest on YS/DL? In general? Vs Marth? Actually, re-reading that, I assume you're mostly referring to vs Marth. Which also seems rather odd to me, since (speaking generally) it seems that Fox likes room vs Marth.

Just picking out the things that are standing out to me, as I personally don't really think two characters is at all necessary (and I dislike the mentality that you absolutely need a secondary to succeed).

I do like Falco on Dreamland, certainly more than Marth there. I still acknowledge vs characters who like it more that Falco will not terribly enjoy himself lol.

I'm talking about generally those are good Fox/Marth/Falco levels in that post. Sorry for the confusion. I do think Fox beats anyone and everyone on YS though just because his Bair is omnipresent and his punish game gets amped up a lot there(meaning his few stray hits mean a lot more whereas they don't always mean as much on bigger levels). That's among other advantages.

I appreciate your skepticism! I certainly hold it as well haha.

 

[MookieRah]

Going back to what you said earlier regarding your decision to use Marth in the tournament when you did, it seems as if you had to pick between Falco and Marth you should pick Marth. If Falco requires more mental power and is very much dependent on your current mental state, I would think that your Marth would be far more consistent in the long run. Also, if it uses less mental strain, you will be fresher by the end of a tournament than you would if you had used Falco for the majority.

I know it's not as simple as that, but it's something to think about.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Right it currently is easier to use Marth. But by the time I will be competing more intensely again in the summer things may have changed. Confusion!

 

[Signia]

Im a garbage player but I was wondering about what is the fastest way to d-tilt out of a dash,

they take similar amount of frames to come out, dash dtilt vs WD dtilt. the difference is the dash dtilt is usually same spacing and WD you can vary the spacing. so if you need to adjust space then use WD more likely. really though you get awesome mixups out of doing either in an approaching sense so that's not a big deal.

basically what im saying is WD dtilt and dash dtilt are a bit different but you also need to be looking at other options out of WD and dash to know when to use one or the other.

There's a dead zone between dash-run-crouch dtilt and a single WD dtilt, while multiple WD makes you vulnerable.

A tricky way to dtilt out of what looks like a dash is to foxtrot (tapping/flicking a dash to return to neutral before the full run starts), and then cancel the foxtrot into a dash (hold forward again after returning to neutral), which results in a slow-run, which can then be cancelled into a crouch. At any point during this movement you can shield.

It seems like a lot of effort for something insignificant but it really does plug a really annoying hole in Marth's options. To dash dtilt you really have to wait a long time, even a little bit after the initial dash ends, during which you are sliding dangerously toward your opponent. I find it very effective in winning Marth-ditto-dtilt-spacing-wars, and it's probably effective in other matchups where you must approach with dtilt.

 

[MookieRah]

There's a dead zone between dash-run-crouch dtilt and a single WD dtilt, while multiple WD makes you vulnerable.

A tricky way to dtilt out of what looks like a dash is to foxtrot (tapping/flicking a dash to return to neutral before the full run starts), and then cancel the foxtrot into a dash (hold forward again after returning to neutral), which results in a slow-run, which can then be cancelled into a crouch. At any point during this movement you can shield.

It seems like a lot of effort for something insignificant but it really does plug a really annoying hole in Marth's options. To dash dtilt you really have to wait a long time, even a little bit after the initial dash ends, during which you are sliding dangerously toward your opponent. I find it very effective in winning Marth-ditto-dtilt-spacing-wars, and it's probably effective in other matchups where you must approach with dtilt.

From what you just summed up I would argue that a simple wavedash would be better. Yeah, you can't shield during a wavedash, but if you aren't inside your opponent's range they won't be able to react to the wavedash. If you get hit it would be due to your opponent throwing something out at the same time, and I would argue that you would get hit with that with or without having the option to shield.

Also, the foxtrot thing you mention would take more time giving your opponent more opportunities to react to it. Yeah, the variation on the run speed would be tricky, but a lot of times when people go for "tricky" stuff it gets countered by normal reaction anyways (as in the opponent simply attacks when you are within their space regardless of your method), as it doesn't do anything to really protect you outside of looking weird. This is why you really don't see a lot of moonwalking actually tricking people.

The more I play, and the more I analyse high level players, the more I see positioning being a thing that defines a great player. A lot of people go nuts once they are out of netural, and this quickly leads to being careless about their positioning and suddenly they derped their way next to the ledge and lose a stock. Really good players will place themselves where they should be, using careful movements to be where they should be in order to make the most out of what they do without leaving them out of position afterwards.

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

What's a good way to practice Marth Combos (That actually works)?
What combos work I the Ditto?
Also @ Dr Peepee when are you gonna stream the Marth Fundamentals?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yes I will stream everything!

 

[LL87]

edit : actually there's a marth video critique thread, so... sorry

 

[SpiderMad]

Oh that's really cool! Didn't know that.

I saw you mentioned AC Fair Mix-ups with Sheik in your AMA. In PM she can do tons more due to stuff.. like SHDF
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BixZR3-YiMw#t=214

 

[Bounce N Back]

What throws are best for tech chasing with marth? Particularly I want to tech chase Fox or Falco, But I don't know if the grab differs depending on the character I'm chasing.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I saw you mentioned AC Fair Mix-ups with Sheik in your AMA. In PM she can do tons more due to stuff.. like SHDF
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BixZR3-YiMw#t=214

oh my

What throws are best for tech chasing with marth? Particularly I want to tech chase Fox or Falco, But I don't know if the grab differs depending on the character I'm chasing.

there's a lot that goes into it. if you throw them and they can edge cancel off of a platform, then that doesn't help you. if you can throw them and they can DI and tech away because their percent is too high that doesn't help you. Generally I use Dthrow below 10% after throw % and Fthrow after that until like 23ish% after throw and then mess with throws for position vs uthrow on platform depending on circumstance. This is all without accounting for stage position and different stages(different lengths and platform heights) and conditioning.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Yeah I'm not sure where I picked it up from but I'm certainly grateful for my tendency to skepticism concerning this game and life in general (which is why I wiggle my eyebrows a bit at you saying Fox bodies everyone on YS but that's something I'll have to look at more closely cause Fox's bair is really lol).

DL seems like a fairly weak stage for Falco/Marth in comparison to Fox but then I don't think anyone can do THAT much to Fox on DL honestly...but that's not discussion for the Marth boards, haha.

 

[MookieRah]

Aside from the spacies, I honestly don't think DL is a bad Marth stage at all, at least not as much as people would think. A lot of room helps Marth due to his fast and strong movement options. It gives Marth room to escape his opponents, but it's less likely that his opponents could escape from him. I also don't think the mid platforms being higher than the others is that big of a deal either. I think it's really easy for Marth to get and maintain stage control there.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah I'm not sure where I picked it up from but I'm certainly grateful for my tendency to skepticism concerning this game and life in general (which is why I wiggle my eyebrows a bit at you saying Fox bodies everyone on YS but that's something I'll have to look at more closely cause Fox's bair is really lol).

DL seems like a fairly weak stage for Falco/Marth in comparison to Fox but then I don't think anyone can do THAT much to Fox on DL honestly...but that's not discussion for the Marth boards, haha.

Well Fox can't FH Nair you if you chill under platforms so that's nice. Overall Fox can attack from more areas just due to the platform layout. It plays more to Fox aggression and also amps up his punish game, whereas DL aids Fox's defense and evens out everyone's punish game vs him. Priy gud levels for that guy imo.

And sure I mean they're good levels for fox in general and I don't think it's a counter matchup for the other top 4 on those levels but it still is significant imo lol. I just have to practice on them more *shrug*

 

[ShroudedOne]

Yeah I was exaggerating a bit with "bodies" when you didn't really say that. It's probably not possible that the top 4 (which I imagine are Spacies/Marth/Sheik) get "shut out completely" in any matchup on any stage. Those characters are really really good, haha. But your reasoning is pretty sound, I think. While I do think that, generally, Peach/Sheik/Puff/other non Marth characters will need to go to smaller stages vs him, it is important to remember just how much he gets from YS.

It's funny how he gains so much from both the smallest, most aggressive level and the largest, most defensive one. What a versatile character.

As a side note I thought you did really well vs Leffen and Mango on YS at MLG (with Marth), another reason why I think your current stance (while valid) seems a bit odd.

 

[BTmoney]

@ ShroudedOne
imo that's extrapolation. A handful of games in high profile matches have a lot of variables going into them (sometime you just zone out while playing and that's a very real thing, you can be tired, hungry, angry, unmotivated, hyped up, crowd cheering against you, nervous, cold/not warmed up, distracted, anxious, not ready for a MU, scared, sometimes you just play extremely well and in melee you can take the other person out of the game etc.) so every situation is not going to be indicative of the next. I do not see PP 4-stocking Mango again on Yoshi's for example. I think it's a bit of fortune and playing very well. Just like how Leffen 4-stocked PP on Yoshi's Fox v. Falco. Imho that's not actually indicative of much. If this happens another 5 times then something might come to light, maybe someone is just good or bad on a stage. PP beat M2k's sheik on DL numerous times but I don't think that's ever going to be a desirable MU.

Just in general I think smashers forget that X marth vs Y fox on Z stage doesn't equal the quintessential MU on that stage. You don't plug into the game, sit down then the indicative, all-speaking Marth vs Fox on battlefield match takes place. Another note is that this community treats 4-stocks like the end all be all. If you're not calibrated right you can get 4-stocked really easily. Just be lazy and hold in a few times too many and miss a few techs and tilt just a little bit. Like PP's Falco vs Armada game 1 on dreamland from Apex when he got 3-stocked. He played fine in my eyes, I saw a few slight situations not go in his favor and a few instances of poor DI and all of a sudden a game that was even turns into you being down 2 stocks without even really making that bad of decisions (and you lose momentum which is going to make you play worse more often than not).

Back to the point, all we really know is that Fox is dangerous, omnipresent is a good word, on Yoshi's and Marth gets better combos, it's really hard to quantify that anymore. I think it's relatively even imo. Marth isn't even being pushed like Fox is. Just food for thought. High level Marth's don't even shield drop so that makes coming down, being corned on platforms, and avoiding invincibility basically impossible. It open's up so much ESPECIALLY for Marth just safety wise.

----------------------> into my next point

I really believe Marth is going to be the 3rd or 2nd best character in the "endgame"/20XX meta. By that I mean when say, everyone's punishes and stage control gets 20% better and and character flaws become 20% more relevant or so. Not that everyone is going to play perfect and all that nonsense.

20XX Marth for example would probably not let Samus land period on Yoshi's, FoD, and maybe Battlefield, that's not really reaching. I can do that when I'm really on my stuff and warmed up. 20XX Marth would also not drop punishes on FD, we can all practice this with the hack pack now (cpus have random DI & techs) no excuse there. Should be death or fat combo or edge guard. Marth probably shouldn't let Falco regain stage control once he gets the right hit on him imo but that's more iffy. It really feels like Marth has these massive advantages over pretty much every character when the situation is in his favor and it's really fox-esque where you just get corned or put in a bad spot and you have to either do something crazy or wait for Fox/Marth to mess up.

Next thing I'm working on is tipper d-smash setups. I just watched Gravy's C falcon tech chase break down on spacies and that was super interesting, if you know what you're doing you can really cover 100%-75% of options in every scenario which is crazy. He figured out most of it all by himself too. So I'm sure we can push more out of Marth. We are getting pivots (I can do dash back pivot tipper to replace dash back grab for example already) and we have an unused kill move.

Imagine if on average instead of killing at like 140% (on actual average) that gets lowered to 115-120% and that will really make this char better.


Just some thoughts,
thoughts?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Marth likely functions on that level better than Falco at least in that matchup. I also think Fox has more room to screw up there or get hit harder for messing up so the momentum can snowball(MLG) whereas it's much easier to stop it on DL but maybe a bit harder to keep pressing advantage on DL too.

 

[BTmoney]

also, dash back -> pivot tipper f smash is amazing and relatively easy with the analog stick and A (the pro version of that is to pivot tipper out of dash dance, same input just a little hard to get the coordination down)

it's actually easy enough as to why I'm wondering more people don't do it. I do use a white controller and they're so chunky I get accidental pivots all the time so maybe that's a factor

and for what it's worth I find the uthrow/dthrow on floaties -> pivot tipper to be very hard compared to that, c-stick, using any method etc.
(you have to dash forward then pivot away from the direction you want to hit then f smash in the original direction, a bit more complicated. for the pivot out of a single dash away or DD you just basically mash the analog stick forward and press A and you get this cool retreating f smash that u can place where you want to place and it gives marth a counter attack while retreating other than dash towards grab or the auto-pivot side B gives you) compared to this, c-stick, using any method etc.

 

[ShroudedOne]

@ BTmoney you're right, a 3 stock on YS doesn't necessarily mean that much, and outlier 3-4 stocks at top level are much less significant than people think. I said that because PP was the one to CP Leffen and Mango to YS at MLG those 3 matches that he won there, and so I naturally imagined that he favored it a lot vs Fox (at least back then) so the change in his thoughts was odd to me. Though people do change their minds on things as they gather and process more information.

And yeah PP I can't disagree with that.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I think I'm fairly solid at the matchup on that level so I can push it more in my favor =p

 

[CELTiiC]

I'm fairly new to Marth and am learning him for certain matchups. I was wondering if you guys could give some advice in matchups vs characters like Falco or Sheik. I'd appreciate it.

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

What's a good way to practice Spacing?

 

[MH | Joeschmo]

What's a good way to practice Spacing?

I second this, I'm a newish,Marth player, just started to get more in depth with playing Marth in specific. Really wondering on drills I can perform to enhance my over Marth play.

 

[1MachGO]

----------------------> into my next point

I really believe Marth is going to be the 3rd or 2nd best character in the "endgame"/20XX meta. By that I mean when say, everyone's punishes and stage control gets 20% better and and character flaws become 20% more relevant or so. Not that everyone is going to play perfect and all that nonsense.

20XX Marth for example would probably not let Samus land period on Yoshi's, FoD, and maybe Battlefield, that's not really reaching. I can do that when I'm really on my stuff and warmed up. 20XX Marth would also not drop punishes on FD, we can all practice this with the hack pack now (cpus have random DI & techs) no excuse there. Should be death or fat combo or edge guard. Marth probably shouldn't let Falco regain stage control once he gets the right hit on him imo but that's more iffy. It really feels like Marth has these massive advantages over pretty much every character when the situation is in his favor and it's really fox-esque where you just get corned or put in a bad spot and you have to either do something crazy or wait for Fox/Marth to mess up.

Next thing I'm working on is tipper d-smash setups. I just watched Gravy's C falcon tech chase break down on spacies and that was super interesting, if you know what you're doing you can really cover 100%-75% of options in every scenario which is crazy. He figured out most of it all by himself too. So I'm sure we can push more out of Marth. We are getting pivots (I can do dash back pivot tipper to replace dash back grab for example already) and we have an unused kill move.

Imagine if on average instead of killing at like 140% (on actual average) that gets lowered to 115-120% and that will really make this char better.


Just some thoughts,
thoughts?

Honestly, if this game could be played with optimal, human reaction time/execution/etc. Marth would probably be the #1 contender. His range and mobility lend him a neutral that would outright invalidate the approach options of characters like Sheik or Jiggs when applied perfectly. Fox/Falco would still give him a run for his money but I'm not entirely convinced "intimidation" tactics and direct pressure with shine (which still gives the defender roll mix ups) are as concrete or as powerful as Marth's dtilt or other silly things like his ability to cover entire platforms with uair and space aerials that can't even be punished by powershields. Players who get grabbed by Marth at this level of play would promptly die or be put in such a horrible position that they'll die eventually whereas a grab from Fox would likely only force you in a situation where you'd still have a mix up.

With that said, I don't see us ever attaining that level of play. But Marth is extremely underdeveloped in respect to his overall potential when compared to his fellow top tiers, IMO. Would love to see a Marth with Gravy's work ethic crack the swordsman's absurd punish game potential.

 

[EZPZ]

I'm fairly new to Marth and am learning him for certain matchups. I was wondering if you guys could give some advice in matchups vs characters like Falco or Sheik. I'd appreciate it.

This is super useful for learning the character and has stuff on those matchups.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Daf_Dqod1HoMj7L26ITeUM-xKUKhfxh2vJLWOl2N0C8/edit

 

[Comet7]

what are the most optimal punishes for marth to get on himself (and i guess sheik since she's similar) from grabs? all i know is f throw to tipper f smash works at low percents, but that's really limited, and otherwise i've just been trying to go for fair from f throw but i can't really get much more from that... and is down tilt to grab guaranteed at any percents?

 

[Dr Peepee]

check kadano's thread to learn uthrow punishes. much more guaranteed. fthrow tipper and dtilt grab are only guaranteed if the opponent DIs in and often at lower percents.

 

[Fantasies]

Okay so after watching quite a few scenarios with marth I've noticed that sometimes when a character (fox for example) is getting fair'd by a marth sometimes instead of following up with a ken combo marths will reverse dolphin slash instead. I was just wondering in which situations would you use each technique?

 

[dRevan64]

Okay so after watching quite a few scenarios with marth I've noticed that sometimes when a character (fox for example) is getting fair'd by a marth sometimes instead of following up with a ken combo marths will reverse dolphin slash instead. I was just wondering in which situations would you use each technique?

On PAL.
In situations when the victim can DI to the stage.
Dolphin slash is arguably better more often.

 

[1MachGO]

Okay so after watching quite a few scenarios with marth I've noticed that sometimes when a character (fox for example) is getting fair'd by a marth sometimes instead of following up with a ken combo marths will reverse dolphin slash instead. I was just wondering in which situations would you use each technique?

Dolphin slash hits higher, farther forward, faster, and is very easy to space when reversed

In NTSC, dair is a guaranteed kill offstage.

So in other words, if dair won't kill, do dolphin slash.

 

[Nicholas1024]

In PAL, reverse up-B is almost always better because the dair doesn't actually spike.

In NTSC, dair is the standard option, but there's a few cases where the up-B is better. Sometimes when people DI upwards on the tipper Fair, they go high enough that Dair will get the sourspot, but up-B will still get the strong hit. Another case is when you're over stage and dair doesn't actually lead into anything while up-B would at least set up an edgeguard. Finally, if you hit with the non-tipper part of the Fair, sometimes going for the dair will cause you to SD, while reverse up-B will still hit and allow you to recover safely.

And as a side note, on stages with small blastzones (Yoshi's in particular), you'll often find that the reverse up-B will kill just as easily as the dair will, and so either one works fine.