Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Fatomsk2]

Running then powershield laser grab

Oops I hit reply instead of edit, MY B

 

[Espi]

What are good approaches for the Falco MU besides run Wavedash OoS?

People say it time and time again, but knowing how to powershield lasers can get you out of really tight situations/create an approach.

 

[miketyson]

Is there are really in depth post on crouch cancelling for marth specifically? if no could someone like @ Dr Peepee make one becasue i feel like if would really help me out

 

[mexicanmax227]

When is it appropriate to go for a Jab for things other than jab reset and edge guarding? maybe D-tilt into jab, wavedash in jab? Thoughts?

Jab is good for two things
1. edge guarding with double jab while blocking the ledge vs. a space becase single jab usually lets them fall and grab the ledge.
2. never jab just once vs. spacie ever then (i know this is psycho but its very likely) . the reason the 2nd jab is important is because BEFORE THE 2ND JAB EVEN COMES OUT Y9OU SHOULD BE ASSUMING your going to CC GRAB as the 2nd jab comes out. the reason is because the jab is a lonnnnnnng animation and usually is really easy to cc against.
For example a peach or spacie can CC jab your singe jab sooooo........that why as YOUR second jab comes out you spam down direction, shield, and the fudge out of the A button for the time the 2nd jab comes out. it covers the option of being crouch canceled, throws your opponent off, and more safely builds space than a singe jab.
THATS WHY YOU SHOULD NEVER SINGLE JAB EVER

 

[BTmoney]

I been thinking more and more about doing the blur style stage striking (meaning esp. vs. spacies you force a game 1 on either FD, Yoshi's, or FoD)

I think there's some good potential in that.
Anyone have thoughts on Marth vs. Falco & Fox on FoD? I feel like marth has potential on FoD


Also, completely random question, how would counter picks work if you wanted to play a BO7 since DSR is a thing lol? There could be more games than there are stages so do you have to counter pick yourself eventually?

 

[Rarik]

If you do Bo7 you should probably switch to the Last stage you won on form of DSR rather than any stage you've won on.

FoD vs Fox/Falco is a fairly common stage to strike to from what I've experienced, and if they don't let me strike there I tend to counterpick it anyways. Platforms are often better placed than BF, especially since you can cover the top platform with SH Uair, and you don't have the ridiculously low ceiling of Yoshi's. The platforms sometimes screwing with Falco's lasers is also nice.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I been thinking more and more about doing the blur style stage striking (meaning esp. vs. spacies you force a game 1 on either FD, Yoshi's, or FoD)

I think there's some good potential in that.
Anyone have thoughts on Marth vs. Falco & Fox on FoD? I feel like marth has potential on FoD


Also, completely random question, how would counter picks work if you wanted to play a BO7 since DSR is a thing lol? There could be more games than there are stages so do you have to counter pick yourself eventually?

I'm pretty uncertain about Marth on FoD vs spacies. FoD in general is such an odd stage to me. I think Marth on BF is fine vs spacies and you get to take more time with your hits even if killing them in some ways is harder so that's slightly preferable for me.

 

[Bones0]

I been thinking more and more about doing the blur style stage striking (meaning esp. vs. spacies you force a game 1 on either FD, Yoshi's, or FoD)

I think there's some good potential in that.
Anyone have thoughts on Marth vs. Falco & Fox on FoD? I feel like marth has potential on FoD


Also, completely random question, how would counter picks work if you wanted to play a BO7 since DSR is a thing lol? There could be more games than there are stages so do you have to counter pick yourself eventually?

DSR is inherently flawed because stage selection is based on what stages you won on. Example set:
Falco vs. Marth (bo5; no bans)
G1: Strike to BF; Falco wins
G2: Marth cps FD; Marth loses
G3: Marth cps FD again; Marth wins
G4: Falco cps DL; Falco loses
G5: Falco cps DL again

There's nothing unfair about this rule, but you can see quite clearly that DSR had absolutely no impact on the set. The whole purpose of the rule is to increase stage variety to test a wider range of skills. If you're a TO or know of one who wants to do bo7, check out my ruleset in my sig. You cannot ban the same stage twice in a row which has no effect on bo3s, ensures stage variety in bo5s, and allows you to extend the set as long as you want. Bo7s would work the same as bo5s, but instead of banning their least favored stage then their second least favored, players would ban their least favored, second least favored, then their least favored again.

 

[BTmoney]

I'm pretty uncertain about Marth on FoD vs spacies. FoD in general is such an odd stage to me. I think Marth on BF is fine vs spacies and you get to take more time with your hits even if killing them in some ways is harder so that's slightly preferable for me.

Thanks for hanging around the Marth boards btw, we all appreciate it. Not many top players do and the marth boards have always been ****post, free which is great.

Anyways can we talk about closing space vs. Falco as Marth? Right now my core game plan is to try to limit the amount of lasers Falco can shoot. It may be an oversimplification but I feel like I win whenever I can successfully discourage them from lasering. When the Falco doesn't give me things for free I struggle with finding different ways to threaten Falco without doing huge commitments. I feel when a Falco is playing 'correctly'/well/lame however you want to put it I hardly exert pressure on him in neutral.

I been a spacie player for 2-3 years and I am making the full transition to Marth, Falco just gives me trouble I don't "get it" or I don't see where the tug-of-war is in the MU. My mixups are not robust or developed in this MU

 

[IdkLmao]

Its weird seeing how uncertain you guys are still acting about this game
If you spent all this time figuring out how to actually be good you wouldn't be wasting hours a day ******* around in topics like this

Here is how to be the best in the world at this game
1- Pick a top tier and as a stretch less than top tier if you want to be a boss
2- Have a punish and approach game designed to do as much damage and create as many openings as possible. That respects and caters to what your character does vs the individual characters. This gives you the best punish game vs marth and a better best punish game vs fox etc.
3- Understand good defensive options
4- Have a reliable you're always going to win edge guard strat against the whole cast that you've practiced into muscle memory so you can do it without thinking
5- Have a reliable recovery strat so you always get back on the stage without thinking
6- Grind your techskill out so much that you can do it at will any way you want without thinking about it
7- Have really really crisp movement that isn't mindless and exists to help you do well against the individual characters without thinking
8- When you build your combo game make your combos as short and easy s you can to the KO % and try purposely to learn not to include moves that let them escape. UNLESS its leading into a situation you're prepared to trick them into getting hit again. If you can find a way to style and combo how you want without being worse at the game that also works.
9. Put more than 3 hours a day into the game or less if you can't keep your hand health up
10. Care about your health and get enough sleep and exercise and eat right so you last longer in training and play better
11. Understand the principles behind why you get hit or land hits and make improvements in your strategy to avoid getting hit and to build on why you're landing hits until you're landing hits all the time and people are having a really hard time hitting you even one time
12. - Understand how to decide what you need to learn and where you are in skill completely and comprehensively so you have that starting point and build a training routine around what you still need to learn so you cover all your bases and spend your time working on everything you still don't know
13- Read into mentalities that let you play better and avoid anxiety and choking so you're level headed and playing at your best all the time. Tons of books on this subject.
14- Actually for once take the time to read/watch through all the information we have on being good at the game on youtube and smashboards and make the decision to use this information to identify what you can't do and need to learn and make plans to learn these things.


Nobody is doing all of this and theres even more than this that you could be doing.

But I bet when it comes down to it most of you don't train an hour a day and what you do as "training" is probably very bad at creating a skill improvement anyway.

Get started and stop sucking at smash. How many of you have had the same or near the same results for years? PPMD isn't a special case here. You all could make leaps and get good like he did. So get good. And stop wasting months here being bad like you already have.

 

[BTmoney]

Trying not to be negative , floor still open

Spoiler

marth boards no longer ****post free

Its weird seeing how uncertain you guys are still acting about this game
If you spent all this time figuring out how to actually be good you wouldn't be wasting hours a day ****ing around in topics like this

Here is how to be the best in the world at this game
1- Pick a top tier and as a stretch less than top tier if you want to be a boss
2- Have a punish and approach game designed to do as much damage and create as many openings as possible. That respects and caters to what your character does vs the individual characters. This gives you the best punish game vs marth and a better best punish game vs fox etc.
3- Understand good defensive options
4- Have a reliable you're always going to win edge guard strat against the whole cast that you've practiced into muscle memory so you can do it without thinking
5- Have a reliable recovery strat so you always get back on the stage without thinking
6- Grind your techskill out so much that you can do it at will any way you want without thinking about it
7- Have really really crisp movement that isn't mindless and exists to help you do well against the individual characters without thinking
8- When you build your combo game make your combos as short and easy s you can to the KO % and try purposely to learn not to include moves that let them escape. UNLESS its leading into a situation you're prepared to trick them into getting hit again. If you can find a way to style and combo how you want without being worse at the game that also works.
9. Put more than 3 hours a day into the game or less if you can't keep your hand health up
10. Care about your health and get enough sleep and exercise and eat right so you last longer in training and play better
11. Understand the principles behind why you get hit or land hits and make improvements in your strategy to avoid getting hit and to build on why you're landing hits until you're landing hits all the time and people are having a really hard time hitting you even one time
12. - Understand how to decide what you need to learn and where you are in skill completely and comprehensively so you have that starting point and build a training routine around what you still need to learn so you cover all your bases and spend your time working on everything you still don't know
13- Read into mentalities that let you play better and avoid anxiety and choking so you're level headed and playing at your best all the time. Tons of books on this subject.
14- Actually for once take the time to read/watch through all the information we have on being good at the game on youtube and smashboards and make the decision to use this information to identify what you can't do and need to learn and make plans to learn these things.


Nobody is doing all of this and theres even more than this that you could be doing.

But I bet when it comes down to it most of you don't train an hour a day and what you do as "training" is probably very bad at creating a skill improvement anyway.

Get started and stop sucking at smash. How many of you have had the same or near the same results for years? PPMD isn't a special case here. You all could make leaps and get good like he did. So get good. And stop wasting months here being bad like you already have.

I really can't even respond to what you said because it's so grossly oversimplified that it is useless. Some things you said are interesting but seeing how you didn't mention anything about spacing, mixups, neutral, how MUs work (these things really are the core of melee and it what makes it so complex), say that there is some linear edge guard strategy that always works etc. I'm assuming you don't really understand the game yet. It sounds like you're trolling. I'm not a person to throw join date around, cause that's really silly, but if you joined the forum 1 month ago and maybe been a part of this scene for a few months before that, if that much, you probably should not be doing whatever it is you are trying to do (i.e. give condescending vague and general advice). You probably don't yet understand the context of what you're saying and it's kind of apparent based off how and what you said (and you probably will deny that).

Notice how none of what you said was specific and everyone tries to do those things to various degrees.

Not to be rude, but honestly keep that away from here lol. It was shortsighted and rude. You can do all of those things and not excel at a MU or at a concept.

 

[Quadobot]

Best method to do short hop double fairs? Right now I try to use claw grip and jump with my inded finger, thumb on c stick. I'm just not consistently getting the short hop

 

[MookieRah]

Its weird seeing how uncertain you guys are still acting about this game

This thread is useful because the discussions here lead to a better understanding of the game. Most people who play this game don't do the things in your list (and it would help) but discussing theory and asking higher level players to explain their though processes helps you understand the game at a deeper level much faster than you would by simply "grinding it out". Think of it this way, instead of trying to figure everything out on your own, you could discuss things with better players here, and then get back to grinding.

That said, so few people actually grind it out, and you have a to do that in order to be successful. You mention an hour a day practice, honestly, I think if someone did practice an hour a day of tech skill they will be in a really good place, as long as it's meaningful practice that actually helps.

In general, you aren't wrong about grinding things out and spending time in game, but there is valuable information and insight to be gained by participating in threads like this. It's also better to not write advice in a condescending tone, because the way you worded your post is basically insulting everyone. It's a great way to have people ignore what you obviously spent time to write.

 

[outofphase]

Its weird seeing how uncertain you guys are still acting about this game
If you spent all this time figuring out how to actually be good you wouldn't be wasting hours a day ****ing around in topics like this

Here is how to be the best in the world at this game
1- Pick a top tier and as a stretch less than top tier if you want to be a boss
2- Have a punish and approach game designed to do as much damage and create as many openings as possible. That respects and caters to what your character does vs the individual characters. This gives you the best punish game vs marth and a better best punish game vs fox etc.
3- Understand good defensive options
4- Have a reliable you're always going to win edge guard strat against the whole cast that you've practiced into muscle memory so you can do it without thinking
5- Have a reliable recovery strat so you always get back on the stage without thinking
6- Grind your techskill out so much that you can do it at will any way you want without thinking about it
7- Have really really crisp movement that isn't mindless and exists to help you do well against the individual characters without thinking
8- When you build your combo game make your combos as short and easy s you can to the KO % and try purposely to learn not to include moves that let them escape. UNLESS its leading into a situation you're prepared to trick them into getting hit again. If you can find a way to style and combo how you want without being worse at the game that also works.
9. Put more than 3 hours a day into the game or less if you can't keep your hand health up
10. Care about your health and get enough sleep and exercise and eat right so you last longer in training and play better
11. Understand the principles behind why you get hit or land hits and make improvements in your strategy to avoid getting hit and to build on why you're landing hits until you're landing hits all the time and people are having a really hard time hitting you even one time
12. - Understand how to decide what you need to learn and where you are in skill completely and comprehensively so you have that starting point and build a training routine around what you still need to learn so you cover all your bases and spend your time working on everything you still don't know
13- Read into mentalities that let you play better and avoid anxiety and choking so you're level headed and playing at your best all the time. Tons of books on this subject.
14- Actually for once take the time to read/watch through all the information we have on being good at the game on youtube and smashboards and make the decision to use this information to identify what you can't do and need to learn and make plans to learn these things.


Nobody is doing all of this and theres even more than this that you could be doing.

But I bet when it comes down to it most of you don't train an hour a day and what you do as "training" is probably very bad at creating a skill improvement anyway.

Get started and stop sucking at smash. How many of you have had the same or near the same results for years? PPMD isn't a special case here. You all could make leaps and get good like he did. So get good. And stop wasting months here being bad like you already have.

Guess you will be winning EVO then, since you have this whole game figured out. LOL your join date is showing hard. Somebody could write a short book about almost any one of those points. Besides, people all have their own opinions and ideas about how to most optimally play Melee, even those who are like minded and have extensive experience and knowledge still have lots of variation in their theories. You really didn't contribute anything with this post whatsoever. Practically everybody here is already aware of everything correct that you said. I don't even know why you would make this post... Just to tell people to work harder? Couldn't contain your ego? It really doesn't matter, but next time, try contributing to the discussion instead of getting on a soapbox. This is a forum, not a blog.

 

[Atomi]

Dr PeePee,

i've been studying your matches. quite often, you use your double jump to cancel momentum from dash dancing. since March can use his shield to do this, could you explain your decision making to me?

thanks

 

[outofphase]

On a different note, I have been getting back into Melee but having a bit of character crisis between Falco and Marth. I want to start getting into some more advanced stuff but I don't have the time or will to dive into two characters. As of now I basically use each character as a crutch to cover matchups i don't like, but I want to double down on one or the other so that I can stay focused and stop splitting my effort. I really like both characters, so I can't seem to drop one or the other. Anybody have ideas or advice about the situation?

 

[Bones0]

On a different note, I have been getting back into Melee but having a bit of character crisis between Falco and Marth. I want to start getting into some more advanced stuff but I don't have the time or will to dive into two characters. As of now I basically use each character as a crutch to cover matchups i don't like, but I want to double down on one or the other so that I can stay focused and stop splitting my effort. I really like both characters, so I can't seem to drop one or the other. Anybody have ideas or advice about the situation?

If the hard matchups are your main problem, I think Marth's hard ones are easier to learn/get used to than Falco's, but that's just imo.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

If the hard matchups are your main problem, I think Marth's hard ones are easier to learn/get used to than Falco's, but that's just imo.

Fighting Falco is far more enjoyable than playing against say Luigi, or Jiggs. All the floaty characters in this game really slow down the pace of the match.

Edit:
Not much related to the immediate topic, but... why did I do this?

 

[1MachGO]

On a different note, I have been getting back into Melee but having a bit of character crisis between Falco and Marth. I want to start getting into some more advanced stuff but I don't have the time or will to dive into two characters. As of now I basically use each character as a crutch to cover matchups i don't like, but I want to double down on one or the other so that I can stay focused and stop splitting my effort. I really like both characters, so I can't seem to drop one or the other. Anybody have ideas or advice about the situation?

In contrast to Bones0, I would actually argue that Marth has more variance than Falco in regards to how he uses his tools from MU to MU. It ultimately depends on your level of play and the way you view the game, but understanding and correctly applying lasers is often more readily available than dash dancing.

 

[BTmoney]

I'm pretty uncertain about Marth on FoD vs spacies. FoD in general is such an odd stage to me. I think Marth on BF is fine vs spacies and you get to take more time with your hits even if killing them in some ways is harder so that's slightly preferable for me.

For what it's worth after playing it some more I like FoD v. Falco just fine. I personally think Falco is overrated on that stage since it literally stifles his neutral to some degree and that's where he wins the MU vs Marth, using his lasers and obnoxious moves to choke out Marth and circumvent the hypothetical death touch. I argue that that strictly gets harder on FoD. I don't think Falco is bad on the stage at all, his punish game gets a bit stronger but I think that platform heights can tangibly hurt him. I think Marth combos well on the stage too.

Now that I think about it though Marth has no escape options on the stage, in any sense, besides the ledge (and top platform but why would you be there). To me FoD is like a more violent version of Yoshi's but it plays sort of like FD in terms of footsies. For Falco I think of it as FD vs Marth where, I think, he has a clear advantage in neutral but now platforms appear that stop him from lasering or using aerials. For Marth, he loses his crazy FD punishes but Falco can't really reset or escape after getting hit. The situation where you tipper Falco across FD and you can't follow up or threaten him and neutral happens again (bad for Marth) never happens on FoD. So it's kind of like Yoshi's with less free kills. Lol, so it's like a lot of stuff. I suppose it is an odd stage.

It really jumbles up the strengths of weakness of Marth and Falco so it could come down to just preference (i.e. being even). I think a great strat is to just be better on that stage than your opponent and practice it cause there is a 95% chance that that won't be your opponent's preferred stage.

I do not like it vs. Fox however. I think it actually slightly/favors him. Fox does Fox stuff no skin off his back on FoD imo. And Fox is kind of ballistic on small stages imo. Fox doesn't lose anything other than his vertical KOs killing 5% later and he's good everywhere on the stage. Man Fox is just so good lol, his neutral is so mind boggling.

 

[King Koala]

youtube.com/watch?v=Yj-mwjkU-gc

What do you guys think of the way Mango played Marth in this recent game at Mayhem? It's really unorthodox and I'm not sure if he played that way because that's just what Mango Marth looks like or if it's what he thinks is the best way to play Peach. Honestly though my jaw was dropped the entire match, i've never seen such crispy double fairs.

 

[Dr Peepee]

For what it's worth after playing it some more I like FoD v. Falco just fine. I personally think Falco is overrated on that stage since it literally stifles his neutral to some degree and that's where he wins the MU vs Marth, using his lasers and obnoxious moves to choke out Marth and circumvent the hypothetical death touch. I argue that that strictly gets harder on FoD. I don't think Falco is bad on the stage at all, his punish game gets a bit stronger but I think that platform heights can tangibly hurt him. I think Marth combos well on the stage too.

Now that I think about it though Marth has no escape options on the stage, in any sense, besides the ledge (and top platform but why would you be there). To me FoD is like a more violent version of Yoshi's but it plays sort of like FD in terms of footsies. For Falco I think of it as FD vs Marth where, I think, he has a clear advantage in neutral but now platforms appear that stop him from lasering or using aerials. For Marth, he loses his crazy FD punishes but Falco can't really reset or escape after getting hit. The situation where you tipper Falco across FD and you can't follow up or threaten him and neutral happens again (bad for Marth) never happens on FoD. So it's kind of like Yoshi's with less free kills. Lol, so it's like a lot of stuff. I suppose it is an odd stage.

It really jumbles up the strengths of weakness of Marth and Falco so it could come down to just preference (i.e. being even). I think a great strat is to just be better on that stage than your opponent and practice it cause there is a 95% chance that that won't be your opponent's preferred stage.

I do not like it vs. Fox however. I think it actually slightly/favors him. Fox does Fox stuff no skin off his back on FoD imo. And Fox is kind of ballistic on small stages imo. Fox doesn't lose anything other than his vertical KOs killing 5% later and he's good everywhere on the stage. Man Fox is just so good lol, his neutral is so mind boggling.

Some people say it's bad for Falco and some say it's good. I think his punish is pretty sweet there and his neutral isn't that much worse tbh. FoD just destroys anyone who loses a slight exchange since they have nowhere to retreat to(though I guess Falco can kind of play to the edge and edge dash a bit). His laser can actually be canceled sooner due to certain platform heights(mostly the lowest one before it disappears) but it also may go higher sometimes(Marth could dash under these I think). I don't exactly know how much this particular nuance factors into a matchup ratio since I have never routinely been able to exploit this vs good falcos or had it exploited much vs my Falco. Anyway, Falco can also have the advantage of attacking into a Marth onto a similar platform height and be safe from being grabbed since his aerial could still hit Marth but grab doesn't reach. I abuse that sometimes and it seems like free approaches to me.

Eh, the point is lower platform heights impact both characters in ways that are pretty hard to say who suffers more. Falco gets more chances to edgecancel throws, but Marth also needs less grabs before he can put you offstage or combo into kill. Until I flesh out exactly what happens when there's less room between them(aka decide what happens when you're on a mini FD and cannot retreat much) I couldn't tell you who should win here. Calling it odd suits me fine lol.

Fox doesn't get to run around on platforms so much so this is actually beneficial to Marth, but of course the problem is if Fox ever sets up much air play/centered play Marth can't dash back too much to counter it. I am okay with calling this level Marth's favor but I really haven't seen/explored/reminded myself of enough of Fox's good options vs Marth in general so I may be going with more popular opinion here than I'd like to be.

I do agree Fox goes in on YS though. What a good Fox level lmao.

 

[BTmoney]

stuff

Have any profound or general thoughts on how to play neutral as Marth v. Falco?

I wrote a wall of text about what I think lol but I'd rather here someone else talk on this.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Nothing much new from what I've said before. The only addition to what I usually say (stagger your actions as expected to be staggered by laser timings) would be "recognize Falco doesn't have to approach immediately and you shouldn't necessarily give up stage right away if you get shot or he moves toward you." Basically be comfortable getting shot up and reacting around good threatening range spacing(Falco SH Nairish spacing). So much can be gained for most people who play vs Falco if they are just okay getting shot and fighting closer to Falco than they think they can be. This goes for myself as well. The rest is knowing options, like take laser to jab or to dash, or dash attacking under higher lasers and how people abuse these options with movement.

 

[Bones0]

Nothing much new from what I've said before. The only addition to what I usually say (stagger your actions as expected to be staggered by laser timings) would be "recognize Falco doesn't have to approach immediately and you shouldn't necessarily give up stage right away if you get shot or he moves toward you." Basically be comfortable getting shot up and reacting around good threatening range spacing(Falco SH Nairish spacing). So much can be gained for most people who play vs Falco if they are just okay getting shot and fighting closer to Falco than they think they can be. This goes for myself as well. The rest is knowing options, like take laser to jab or to dash, or dash attacking under higher lasers and how people abuse these options with movement.

Any opinions on PS vs. FD?

 

[heyitshoward]

hmm. reading your thoughts on fox-marth on fod i'm reminded of an article published by tafo a while ago on the mango-m2k rivalry here: http://meleeiton.me/2014/07/17/tafostats-how-mew2king-lost-at-stage-select/

another reason tafokints postulates is that fod actually worsens marth's punish game (m2k got fewer followups on average per break in neutral) which seems to be at odds with what you say about fod needing fewer grabs to put a space animal offstage to ledgeguard. do you think this is a m2k specific thing or... i dunno how to phrase the question lol. would you mind expanding upon this bit some?

 

[BTmoney]

Just to interject I've heard m2k say he likes FoD just fine and he believes he can get guaranteed long combos on the stage (theoretical 0 to deaths).

Be careful not to confuse mango vs m2k with a general MU. Especially because they are extremely unique players.

I could play westballz on FD and get destroyed by lasers but that won't change the fact that I lost cause I got outplayed and Marth has an advantage on that stage.

I think pretty much that is going on. Mango just beat him, and I guess usually plays better on FoD.

When you beat someone you usually get hit less lol. I think that article just says mango is really good on FoD.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Any opinions on PS vs. FD?

PS has a longer bottom platform/central platform/whatever you call it. That means you get more space as Marth to dash back which is pretty great. The little platforms also allow for dodging lasers/attacking off of them and even in this matchup I find this useful. Plus they can even make CG punishes easier since tilts and aerials can hit very easily on the platforms. The rock/fire transformation suck for Marth imo but the other two aren't so bad. This makes it kinda confusing to calculate who wins here since Falco is fine with the open space and isn't bothered by the platforms terribly(he can even use those to dodge some of Marth's approaches and put out faster lasers himself). I think considering strategies like Falco playing more patient to allow the level to change could be worthwhile, which could mean Marth could have to be more aggressive. Perhaps an important idea, perhaps not.

FD is a bit shorter, so a bit less safety on mistakes for both characters. Marth gets a CG but Falco of course can shark from below Marth and combo him off the level pretty well on most strong hits. I think a lot of this comes down to the laser interactions and who can manipulate threatening range better. I'm still uncertain of how this "should" turn out or how even it is, which is definitely part of my confusion regarding the matchup. Essentially, it's probably even enough to where Falco can totally win and his punish is fine enough to where he can win too. Marth just has an added advantage of taking a longer time to punish which can slow Falco down more. Perhaps less of an advantage at top level, but I imagine it could still persist.


I'd imagine I'd give the nod to Marth on FD(Falco has less outs and the effect Marth's punish has on him + the punish likely hits harder on Marth's end) and it's more confusing on PS due to the variability in transformations and the involvement of those platforms on the neutral part. Falco can even recover a bit better on PS if he can get an opportunity to side b cancel, but of course he loses wall-riding from below so even that is a bit of a murky tradeoff. I guess if I had to offer any final insight it would be that on PS there are far more level-specific tricks one can abuse to have an advantage whereas on FD everything is far more straightforward.

Hope that helps.

hmm. reading your thoughts on fox-marth on fod i'm reminded of an article published by tafo a while ago on the mango-m2k rivalry here: http://meleeiton.me/2014/07/17/tafostats-how-mew2king-lost-at-stage-select/

another reason tafokints postulates is that fod actually worsens marth's punish game (m2k got fewer followups on average per break in neutral) which seems to be at odds with what you say about fod needing fewer grabs to put a space animal offstage to ledgeguard. do you think this is a m2k specific thing or... i dunno how to phrase the question lol. would you mind expanding upon this bit some?

I just remember Mango and M2K playing at EVO on FoD and M2K choked away all of his punishes(he wasn't the only player doing this at evo either). I hardly think that was the fault of the level. I don't remember all of the other times they played because it's happened so much but I imagine if there's any other factor it would just be how M2K is getting more stray hits(weak Fairs/Nairs) that don't lead to anything because he can't dash away safely on the level. I don't find that necessarily indicative of the matchup but if there's a factor to be closer to the truth it would be something like that.

 

[heyitshoward]

seems reasonable. i guess i would have to go back and rewatch it to draw more inference. thanks for the responses guys

 

[NINJAxKOALA]

youtube.com/watch?v=Yj-mwjkU-gc

What do you guys think of the way Mango played Marth in this recent game at Mayhem? It's really unorthodox and I'm not sure if he played that way because that's just what Mango Marth looks like or if it's what he thinks is the best way to play Peach. Honestly though my jaw was dropped the entire match, i've never seen such crispy double fairs.

I watched some of his other games at Mayhem and he started using d tilt against other characters, perhaps he just doesn't like it against Peach? Regardless that was insane, seeing him dominate so hard doing all the things PP and Umbreon etc say not to do makes me wonder if there are just other strong ways to play Marth or if it's just Mango being Mango

 

[-=Untamed-Beast=-]

New players learn the rules, average players follow the rules, and great players break the rules.
Can you guess which category best defines MaNg0?

 

[BTmoney]

I watched some of his other games at Mayhem and he started using d tilt against other characters, perhaps he just doesn't like it against Peach? Regardless that was insane, seeing him dominate so hard doing all the things PP and Umbreon etc say not to do makes me wonder if there are just other strong ways to play Marth or if it's just Mango being Mango

Play someone a lot "worse" than you and you can pretty much play however you want. If he played Armada's peach he'd be playing 3000x safer but still in his weird mango way. There are videos of westballz beating people he's a lot better than by spamming multi shine in place. That's obviously not a sustainable strategy lol.


Besides that,
Does Marth have any decent spaced pressure strings or pokes he can do vs spacies? (Pretty sure falco can sh dair OOS an almost perfectly spaced fair, or at least a fair with very good spacing on shield)

When I get my d-tilt blocked I really don't know what to do next. What do you guys think about this situation/try to do here? Dash back?

 

[NINJAxKOALA]

Play someone a lot "worse" than you and you can pretty much play however you want. If he played Armada's peach he'd be playing 3000x safer but still in his weird mango way. There are videos of westballz beating people he's a lot better than by spamming multi shine in place. That's obviously not a sustainable strategy lol.


Besides that,
Does Marth have any decent spaced pressure strings or pokes he can do vs spacies? (Pretty sure falco can sh dair OOS an almost perfectly spaced fair, or at least a fair with very good spacing on shield)

When I get my d-tilt blocked I really don't know what to do next. What do you guys think about this situation/try to do here? Dash back?

If I d-tilt a shield I normally check and see if i'm too close. If so, WD or dash back. If you're at the right spacing however (tipper range or just a little closer) you can normally just keep d tilting their shield until they either get shield poked or jump in which case you can punish with u-tilt or uair or f smash etc.

 

[1MachGO]

Jab or shorthop>react are very good in addition to dashback.

Dtilt is very safe.

In regards to fair vs. Falco, a tipped fair is 0 on block. Falco's dair OoS is 10 frames. This means you could beat it with jab, utilt, fair, or side-b. Short hop back>nair would also beat it.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Play someone a lot "worse" than you and you can pretty much play however you want. If he played Armada's peach he'd be playing 3000x safer but still in his weird mango way. There are videos of westballz beating people he's a lot better than by spamming multi shine in place. That's obviously not a sustainable strategy lol.


Besides that,
Does Marth have any decent spaced pressure strings or pokes he can do vs spacies? (Pretty sure falco can sh dair OOS an almost perfectly spaced fair, or at least a fair with very good spacing on shield)

When I get my d-tilt blocked I really don't know what to do next. What do you guys think about this situation/try to do here? Dash back?

Mango also just refuses to do some Marth things correctly.

Falco cannot Dair OOS a spaced Fair. Maybe if you stand totally still and somehow don't react it hits you by the end but it shouldn't work. That's kind of the whole thing about Marth's pressure on shields. He doesn't need to do lots of moves. He can easily react to whatever someone does OOS so hitting a shield at all into wait(as Umbreon would say) is probably one of your better pressure "strings." This is because they cannot hit you with anything OOS without you reacting to it/outspacing it. This is true not just for Falco but any character.

When Dtilt is blocked, most people want to try either dash back or run up grab. I don't really like either of these since people are likely to WD/jump and neither of those actions except maybe dash back (set you up to) punish that. I prefer Dtilt to slight wait(into fair or grab or whatever) or some other close yet non-committal action.

TLDR Marth is not a spacie and he does not have to go fast or push buttons.

 

[1MachGO]

More like: "TLDR Marth OP"

And PP, I know in your ama you called Fox/Marth MU even, but do you think Marth has potential to win [slightly] in the future? I feel like they both hold their own in neutral but Marth can ultimately hit harder when he gets his opening. (Plus Marth has the FD card which is more substantial than the Dreamland card). And if you have the time, how would you label Marth's MUs vs the top 8 and other MUs in question amongst the community (such as Pika and Yoshi) ?

 

[BTmoney]

yeah for d-tilt-> jump or fair it helps to hold in/walk in during your d-tilt if you decide that jumping is appropriate.

this walk input buffers your IASA frames (since I just learned you can't d-tilt and abuse IASA frames with a jump input or special, you have to attack or move)

I noticed sometimes I could instantly fair after a d-tlt and sometimes I would try to and nothing would happen and it seemed kind of random, so there's the solution to that. just posting that here for anyone else who might encounter the same problem

 

[Dr Peepee]

I think Marth might win in this current metagame. He might actually win overall. I'm not ruling that out. When I look at what is most likely given what I have seen and know about the matchup I think it's even though(Fox could totally be hitting more in neutral on average than Marth, but even if that's not true Fox has a better gimp game vs Marth than vice versa imo). I personally think top Foxes don't abuse the character in the right way vs Marth so it's why he could totally win right now.
I think DL is an amazing tool Foxes don't use correctly vs Marth, and I think Foxes could be better on FD too.

Marth beats Pikachu but I'm totally clueless how that one works LOL Axe is too good and too rare to play. Yoshi....Marth probably wins but there's some weird stuff on DL/BF/maybe FoD I can't figure out what I think about yet. I need to get experience in it somehow.

Marth Sheik is more or less evenish based on my current knowledge.

Marth Falco idk maybe even

Marth Peach, Marth wins solidly at top level.

Marth Puff feels harder than Marth Peach imo but I think I'm also worse at it. Marth still definitely wins though.

Marth Falcon, Marth very likely has advantage but only at top level.

Marth ICs, I'm pretty ignorant about ICs but the ICs say it's their worst matchup so I'll take their word for it lol. I need to learn this one a lot better.


Suffice to say I got learnin to do but Marth has a good matchup spread/is a baller.

 

[1MachGO]

Thanks for the reply. I definitely agree with your sentiments about how things may change. I guess we'll just have to wait and see how you and top Foxes adapt to one another.

...I'll still probably preach Marth has a slight advantage over Fox till the end of time though lol.

 

[TaFoKiNtS]

Mew2King has lost the last 8 or so matches on FOD against Mango as sheik/marth vs. spacies. His punishment game is really subpar because he relies on tippered up-tilts and re-grabs on his combo game. It's a trend that goes beyond him "playing bad" at one tourney.