i've been trying to make my marth as linear as possible, going for guaranteed and low risk setups and whatnot and minimizing the amount of interaction that the other player has.
"dash dance/wd for stage control -> dtilt at their space/dd range (or grab if the opportunity exists), if on shield or spot dodged, dd away and reset to neutral, on hit -> jc grab -> dthrow for tech chase, uthrow for everything else and "are they in the air?" -> fair"
has been my game plan for a long time now, and i've only found moderate success. there are minor deviations that i do too obv, like wding in and reacting to their assumption that i'll dtilt, or not going for the grab at higher percents after the dtilt since the grab won't connect and just take the space the dtilt gives me, but for the most part, the above is my game plan. i figure the only possible issues would be my punish game, my dd, or just the game plan.
so my questions are:
1) is my game plan even correct?
2) how do i space/mix-up my dash dance? i just get hit out of it a lot of the time, and i'm not sure if that's my spacing or my reaction time. i looked at lucien's guide for spacing and to space just outside their farthest reaching move and weave in and out from there and i've been trying to do that, so i guess it's possible that i'm just not recognizing what their farthest/fastest option is
3) how do i maximize my punish game? i often can't get more than two or three hits without ending the combo (i do try to end the string with them near or off the edge, though)
4) when they're in the air, is it optimal to swat them out of the air with a fair or move closer to threaten their landing options?
5) when zoning, is it optimal to use the threat of swinging or the swing itself? i read somewhere that it's best to swing as little as possible in the neutral and to only use dtilt if you have to swing, but people just tend to be aggressive with me and challenge my aerial space from a spot where i don't have the opportunity to react to their attack with my fair or dd away
Dtilt is not a combo move even when you hit with it. You should not be going from Dtilt into grab but Dtilt into positional advantage. If you can get the grab then go for it but it is by no means guaranteed. I know you mentioned that but I think Dtilt into advantage should be a staple plan and not Dtilt into grab.
You should also be looking to pull them into you sometimes. This is partly done with zoning, something I do not make much use of(but should) as I prefer to approach but something Marth can do very well. I think this ties into your concern about effective gameplan and also of course your zoning concern.
To elaborate more on your second concern(which I think is most central), you also need to watch video 2 of Lucien's series about reading in that threatening range. Learn what good options you have there, what theirs are, and the counters to each. If you are just blindly shooting in matchups you will be confused about hits and what does not hit.
1. it's alright but needs to be fleshed out more (tldr)
3. Depends on matchup and other factors. Use 20XX to practice CGs/tech chases. Otherwise learn pseudo combos(like stuff to do after Dtilt or Fair that is CC'd). Without more specifics it is impossible to help more than this.
4. Both. Watch my play vs Armada at Apex 2015 when he was Peach. I would routinely go up there for a hit but I also jumped sometimes without swinging immediately so he had to worry about me coming up or not. Developing juggles for matchups and stages is key.
5. Retreating Fair is essentially unpunishable. Nair and Fair in place are pretty safe, and Dtilt in place can be as well. These types of actions control your space, meaning if someone wants to come in and try to hit you then they likely cannot because you are throwing a move out around that time(sometimes anyway). Zoning can be used for many purposes included offensive ones, but I suggest first getting used to controlling space and observing how your opponent responds.
edit: nvm, I figured out this part but
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I may be incorrect but is there a point to doing wavedash back then dashing forward to cancel your momentum (especially after a down tilt)? I feel like that kind of movement just eliminates your available options. Unless you can instantly crouch that dash input that cancels your wavedash momentum.
Can you elaborate just a bit on that technique? I know what it is but I suppose I don't know the mechanics and I really only do it as an unnecessary mixup when approaching to throw off my opponents timing
If you don't feel it is necessary, then don't do it.
I like it because I am playing off of how I could approach or give the visual cue like I would approach in dash forward(and stall instead) and I am also staggering my timing to see how the opponent responds.
PP, could you elaborate on your thoughts on Marth in doubles?
Or anyone. I want to talk about marth in doubles.
PPU and Cactus honestly know more about this than I do.
Marth has to not abuse movement much at all in teams. Teams is about simplicity and minimal actions. For this reason, Marth will likely have to zone more in teams. Since his combos are also usually long, he has to support more or find ways to secure quick gimps/big hits without much time.
Cactus has found a way to circumvent some of the movement issue by making great use of platforms for example to draw opponents away from their teamwork positions and then knocks them away to go and 2v1 the other opponent. That is also something worth trying.
I personally haven't tested Marth teams stuff in maybe a year or more so I do not feel comfortable saying more than that.
