Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[SpiderMad]

Side-b also has that transcendent priority thing

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Side-b also has that transcendent priority thing

I am not really sure if there are any situations where that sort of thing is good to have on ground based moves. Not that I think sideB is worth using in several situations against grounded opponents anyway, but for Marth the last thing he wants is to trade with people. Having SideB swing right through another Marth and get hit by Ftilt/Fsmash while you simply give them 4 percent and hardly any KB is not a good trade. It would be better to clank hits with jab or something on other moves than lose trading/clanking with transcendent priority x.x

 

[tonic]

Yep, I think PP had that in mind as well when he talked about sideB more liable to trade: lower range, slower hitbox, and transcendent priority

 

[MookieRah]

Am I the only person that thinks that jab has a lot of potential in neutral? I mean, it's no dtilt, but the thing is if spaced right I think it would only be punishable if your opponent CC's it. It's great at stuffing aerial approaches, and it the stun seems to mess up players' rhythms.

I haven't played in several months now, but when I was experimenting with it, it seemed to be quite effective against opponents around my skill level. I'd like to hear if anyone else, especially Dr Peepee , any more insight to add or to correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[tonic]

I've been using it a lot more in my neutral lately. I find that it's extremely useful for holding space and stuffing both grounded and aerial approaches, whereas dtilt only covers grounded ones. It has more range than a neutral jump fair or nair, and much requires much less commitment; additionally, you're punished much less for it if you do happen to be hit. I also find it to be extremely good pressure when you have them pushed far in the corner, as you can hit them if they try to move out of it via standard movement or an attack/grab. They also can't just jump over you. Chances are you'll be poking at their shield, until you either get a shieldpoke and have them off the level, or force them to make an unsafe maneuver which you can punish.

Jab is seriously underrated. I think people focus too much on what you can get out of a move rather than what you can keep with it. In previous discussions of jab I've seen, people tend to disregard is a viable move because "it's laggy, you can't convert, you might as well grab or Fsmash if it will hit, dtilt is godlike" but there's a risk that comes with all the other options that doesn't come with jab. Jab is THE move for stopping people attempting to close in on you, keeping them out, and giving you control.

If people could experiment with jab more and share some of its usefulness in different situations, that would be awesome. My training partner is a falco main so jab sees a lot of use, but I'm curious as to how it fares in other matchups. I suspect it is a poor option in marth dittos, however.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Am I the only person that thinks that jab has a lot of potential in neutral? I mean, it's no dtilt, but the thing is if spaced right I think it would only be punishable if your opponent CC's it. It's great at stuffing aerial approaches, and it the stun seems to mess up players' rhythms.

I haven't played in several months now, but when I was experimenting with it, it seemed to be quite effective against opponents around my skill level. I'd like to hear if anyone else, especially Dr Peepee , any more insight to add or to correct me if I'm wrong.

I feel similarly. It's also a funny zoning tool to just use and see how people respond. It is a bit problematic since it's still a shorter range and can get beaten by lots of stuff plus if you use it when someone's close then CC or not you can often get punished. Still, I have noticed it is an interesting tool. Wouldn't use it much vs Sheik though. Her moves are all just better Marth jabs lol.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Am I the only person that thinks that jab has a lot of potential in neutral? I mean, it's no dtilt, but the thing is if spaced right I think it would only be punishable if your opponent CC's it. It's great at stuffing aerial approaches, and it the stun seems to mess up players' rhythms.

I think it has several advantages over other moves of Marth that make it ideal to use in several situations.

-Frame 4-7 hitbox; fastest grounded move to pull out. Perfect for reactionary situations. If you come out of a tech and try rolling your i-frame on roll comes out on frame 4.
-Marth extends forward to extend the hitbox. Maybe less range on other moves, but still disjointed.
-Sweeps down to up protecting Marth's hurtbox on the ground and in the air
-4%/6% which means it can clank with anything from 0%-11%/0-13%. This surprisingly prevents trades against a large number of moves.
-Can activate a 2nd delayed hitbox. While not all that great it does provide a back-up defense options for whiffed jab1. If you whiff anything else of marth's you sit through a ton of lag other than aerials or like Dtilt. But, jab1 -> jab2 can have varied timings with only a (5 frame?) window between hitboxes or as long as about 20 frames.

I do not think Jab should be used in neutral, but rather as a reactionary defensive method. When coming out of techs I think Jab is on par with shield, dodge, and roll as a defensive move to use when you are at a disadvantaged situation.

Jab does not really give you any great benefits for hitting someone. Dtilt can take space and potentially set-up a situation to pull off more things. Jab seems to play more of a role to simply reverse your situation from disadvantage to neutral/advantaged. At higher percents the move will actually KD and can set-up for a tech chase or some weird pop-up near you to react too.

Not sure if you should be wasting your neutral actions by using jab when using Dtilt/Grab give you greater benefits in setting up follow-up situations. Otherwise, its great defensively, but possibly an alternative to grab/dtilt at higher percents.

 

[Bones0]

I'd rather just dash away if I anticipate them attacking that quickly (or dtilt if it will deal with the expected approach). If you have enough time, ftilt is just superior in terms of range, strength, etc. Can they do some crispy spacing with DDing to avoid ftilt and punish the lag? Sure, if they are fast character, but then if they are DDing idk why you'd jab instead of dtilt/AC nair in the first place. I've tried jabbing and it definitely stuffs... stuff, but like whenever it hits I think "damn, I could have done x, y, or even z instead and gotten so much more out of that situation."

 

[Dr Peepee]

I like it as it gives people more things to consider. Ftilt(a bigger move) or dashing are more typical responses that would be less likely to disrupt rhythm. I'm okay with people choosing to do either since jab is of questionable use overall.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I wonder what situations people are thinking about when they use jab. For me, I am almost always thinking of using jab when trying to reverse a bad situation. A good example is when I am near the stage ledge or coming out of a tech chase.

My idea of jab is similar to fox/falco using shine after a tech. Its something that can be beat, but its a reversal of momentum should you connect with it. Not to mention that shine comes with a back up plan by being able to full hop out of it to say a top platform or go into an aerial.

Marth jab is simply a weaker reversal attempt. Dtilt cannot cover anything aerial and is slower than jab. Dash back does not really work too well when you run out of stage. Ftilt is additionally slow and has no safeguard on whiff (or low percent hits).

Jab literally covers all of the aforementioned issues of the previous options by being faster. It covers aerial and ground based approaches. Plus, by merely having the option to go into jab2 it has a safeguard on whiff or hitting shield or hitting CC or low percent.

The offset is that jab does not give a strong reversal, but it is a reversal of your situation nonetheless. I call this a pretty big boon compared the to the alternative of being stuck in a bad situation.

Now, I am not saying to always use it because getting out of a bad situation should not have a best option. However, I would say that jab is among your best choices to pick from to try to get out a bad situation. You will have to make the call on which options become stronger depending upon your situation, but I would say its worth considering over other options.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Out of bad situations I am skeptical about because people often can outmaneuver Marth or get closer to him there. If he has some space then I suppose it's alright. I used to do that I think but I stopped because people adapted and got closer or I just forgot I guess. I'll mess with that again.

I would use it to mess with people who are cornered a bit. I could also see myself using it on a shielding character like Falco who doesn't have much mobility oos/can't hit me oos so I could toy with them. My stance on shield pressure for Marth(and most characters really) is you don't need to do lots of moves to be effective so I feel jab can sometimes accomplish a certain shield threat if used correctly.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Out of bad situations I am skeptical about because people often can outmaneuver Marth or get closer to him there. If he has some space then I suppose it's alright. I used to do that I think but I stopped because people adapted and got closer or I just forgot I guess. I'll mess with that again.

Then, what has been your replacement methods do you feel? I imagine that damage reduction and trying to regain momentum from a bad spot is something you must have tried contemplating. Unless much of your analysis is spent on punishes and winning several small engagements.

It always seems as if much of any discussion is always spent on punishes and never enough on how to attempt reversal of situations. Probably because punishes are very easy to understand and the topic of getting out of a poor situation is not in the realm of character match-up discussion, but rather player-player interactions.

 

[Signia]

I am not really sure if there are any situations where that sort of thing is good to have on ground based moves. Not that I think sideB is worth using in several situations against grounded opponents anyway, but for Marth the last thing he wants is to trade with people. Having SideB swing right through another Marth and get hit by Ftilt/Fsmash while you simply give them 4 percent and hardly any KB is not a good trade. It would be better to clank hits with jab or something on other moves than lose trading/clanking with transcendent priority x.x

Having trancendent priority means that you aren't trading when you out range your opponent, unlike jab, filt, and dtilt which will clank with shorter range moves. If you space a side-B, you won't trade. You'll beat them outright.

Side-B is also much better for stuffing aerials in the neutral. Not only is it available out of movement without having to pivot or stand still, the hitbox starts higher and so will beat things like Falcon aerials more consistently. It also can lead somewhere, whereas a jab leads nowhere. A side-B, though it might not combo into another one, will still be a threat that will make someone either shield or double jump if you catch them in the air. With a read on your opponent this can lead to juggles and grabs. If they don't respect the side-B you can simply shield their attack and grab or in some situations the second side-B will hit them, which might combo into a third or lead into the same situation again, depending on the % and character.

Honestly though, I've only made this work well against bad Falcon SH approaches, where you can often combo into sideB->B^B and go to a tech chase, or side-B will cause an awkward position at low percent where an aerial won't come out in time and they'll be stuck landing, or they'll double jump and be in a bad position.

It always seems as if much of any discussion is always spent on punishes and never enough on how to attempt reversal of situations. Probably because punishes are very easy to understand and the topic of getting out of a poor situation is not in the realm of character match-up discussion, but rather player-player interactions.

It is still a matchup thing, really. Like, against Sheik, there's no reason to use side-B or jab, since they won't do anything and dtilt won't get you hurt if she jumps at you. Against Falco, you may want to Counter a laser approach. However, if you have time you can also dash away. Or, you can be safe and shield and WD out... or you could buffer roll... there's really a lot of options and they're usually better than jab.

 

[tonic]

I've experimented with it when I've got characters (non-marth) in the corner. If you slowly advance with walk and space jab at them, they really can't do anything. Oftentimes they end up in shield and you can continue the pressure. They can't jump over you, and they can't muscle their way through you. Since you're spaced well, CC and shield is not a problem. If they roll through you, punish it on reaction. Projectile dependent characters like Peach and Falco also struggle immensely. Specifically it works really well against Peach because she can't abuse her float with jab in play.

 

[BTmoney]

Man, imagine marth with sheik's jabs

 

[Dr Peepee]

Then, what has been your replacement methods do you feel? I imagine that damage reduction and trying to regain momentum from a bad spot is something you must have tried contemplating. Unless much of your analysis is spent on punishes and winning several small engagements.

It always seems as if much of any discussion is always spent on punishes and never enough on how to attempt reversal of situations. Probably because punishes are very easy to understand and the topic of getting out of a poor situation is not in the realm of character match-up discussion, but rather player-player interactions.

I likely replaced it with moving into them. Moving into the opponent is the last thing people expect when you're cornered so that's why I sometimes do it LOL. Once that is established I get far more liberty when I am in a bad position and can take my time as needed.

Specifically, WD'ing into the opponent is awesome. In general it's awesome, but here too. It's great because you can still ASDI down and punish since you're already kind of holding down plus you can act fairly quickly out of moving forward if need be. In Marth's case he might just move through someone so he can just keep on going and regain stage. Hax actually used to talk about how Falcon's "best" option when cornered was to run to the center. While I don't really agree, I think it does highlight the use of implementing such a quick option that many do not expect/can cover well.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I have talked with one player about this before about dashing through someone.

If you are under a side platform near the ledge half you have little room to dash directly towards them if they choose to dash SH Nair directly at you. Fox/Falcon/Falco can dash SH Nair from center stage at say YI/BF/FoD and go to the ledge with the aerial and cutoff several options. Eats through dash back, get hit by dash forward, and shield situation when hit by aerial.

Seems of good use when you are nearly directly on top of someone. You can try to dash past the start up of an aerial if they end up using it.

 

[Meru]

PPMD, when I was watching ur winners semis set (marth peach) vs armada at apex 2015, it seemed like you were almost always throwing for positioning (to get center stage, force armada off), though when you were in the middle and armada was at high percents, you seemed to favor fthrow (was this because fthrow has more followup potential for poor DI? because otherwise it seems that dthrow would be better because it sends peach farther). How come you prefer f/dthrow as opposed to getting peach in the air? Also, there were times when you did back throw instead of dthrow at higher percents. How come you chose bthrow in these situations? (e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IomXcdAAt7E#t=15m45 or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IomXcdAAt7E#t=7m32s)

 

[Dr Peepee]

I can sometimes tech chase punish and if not then Peach's options feel easier for me to control when she's cornered than when she's airborne.

For those Bthrows, I wanted to see if I could catch him holding in since I think I could Bair that. Even if I couldn't, then he has to burn options to get away which I like since it simplifies dealing with her.

 

[Bones0]

Having trancendent priority means that you aren't trading when you out range your opponent, unlike jab, filt, and dtilt which will clank with shorter range moves. If you space a side-B, you won't trade. You'll beat them outright.

Side-B doesn't clank, which means if someone attacks you at the same time as you side-B them, you are liable to trade (which is usually bad because the first hit of DB is weak with minimal KB).

 

[BTmoney]

Wait are you guys saying if you're too close you can get punished but you can't be if you space better??

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Wait are you guys saying if you're too close you can get punished but you can't be if you space better??

That is pretty much a given on any move in this game. The question is if that move inflicts enough knockback/stun against the characters weight/launch resistance to be able to finish your ending lag before the opponent gets to a position to retaliate.

 

[BTmoney]

I think it's doable almost all of the time if you space DB1 well because people forget that 1 people often try to DI and smash DI away and if they do you can often get tipper f-tilts which are very, very strong for a marth move or a fair/uair juggle.

In my experience you just have to space it and probably not use it until past medium percent

edit:

another underrated thing that I don't fully remember how it works is that it put characters in the air which can be a abusable thing for marth situationally

 

[MookieRah]

@ Dr Peepee at what percent do you start up throwing Fox onto platforms? Also, at what percent does uair against an opponent on a mid platform combos into another uair (also against Fox)?

I have a vague sense of when it can happen, but in my practice I don't think I'm as fast as I could be. If I knew what you look for then it would help me work on this a lot better.

 

[tauKhan]

@ Dr Peepee Also, at what percent does uair against an opponent on a mid platform combos into another uair (also against Fox)?

If the opponent is close to the edge of the platform, he'll generally have to be above 60% I think, or he could do this: http://smashboards.com/threads/double-stick-di-out-of-marths-platform-combos.403279/

Fox can do that still somewhere between 50-60% I think. It's not in common use yet, but I'm trying to teach people . I already do this all the time. Teching also works to the same percentages if the uair knocks down, and if it doesn't, you can ASDI down to 'cc land' with the same di.

 

[tonic]

If you CC, how does it work? For a true CC, you need to hold down on the control stick right? From my own experience, I've been able to CC Falcon's upairs near the edge of a platform, and if he knocks me off I can retaliate. But I've never DIed off the platform.

 

[tauKhan]

I meant just ASDIng down to land on the platform to cancel hitstun, which gives the most frame advantage when you go for 'ccs'. Tipper uair starts knocking down in the mid% I think, something like 40% usually, so that's when you can't ASDI land cancel hitstun anymore. Crouching extends the percentage at which that works.

 

[Dr Peepee]

If the opponent is close to the edge of the platform, he'll generally have to be above 60% I think, or he could do this: http://smashboards.com/threads/double-stick-di-out-of-marths-platform-combos.403279/

Fox can do that still somewhere between 50-60% I think. It's not in common use yet, but I'm trying to teach people . I already do this all the time. Teching also works to the same percentages if the uair knocks down, and if it doesn't, you can ASDI down to 'cc land' with the same di.

holy crap that's inconvenient LOL. I knew they would get knocked down around early 20%s so I always start uthrow if I could put them in that range, but it seems I will have to get more creative with punishes now that I know this.

 

[tauKhan]

Oh, knockdown is early 20%? I seem to have bad memory for these. But you don't have to worry too much now, it seems pretty hard to reach top level players, been trying recently.

 

[Bones0]

I do that all the time, but I always input a tech out of habit and end up getting hit again. -.-
Definitely gonna start making sure I don't ground tech so I can bounce off and get a punish. Seems like Falco could do it with enough time to dsmash, which could be huge.

 

[v-$]

How do you beat a fast fox in neutral?

In general, I think i'm okay at dd-grabbing on reaction in micro-scenarios, but how should marth be approaching the neutral vs. fox? I feel like I keep getting nair-shined into a big combo.

 

[CyberZixx]

What do we do against Icies? By far my worst match up and there is a dominant Icies player in my region who I can't just hope I don't run into.

 

[dRevan64]

What do we do against Icies? By far my worst match up and there is a dominant Icies player in my region who I can't just hope I don't run into.

I want to second this question because I'm not actually sure I've ever seen PP play this MU as marth. For my part I feel as though you want to really push neutral situations with dtilt and abuse nana's terrible DI whenever you can touch her. Icies vs any other character really forces you to never do anything unsafe.

 

[v-$]

What do we do against Icies? By far my worst match up and there is a dominant Icies player in my region who I can't just hope I don't run into.

My strat vs. IC's is to use Dtilt, which is usually safe in neutral unless they dysynch and send nana out with a blizzard and use popo to grab you. Try to pop them into the air somehow, or corner them, because at that point they are extremely at your will given your range and disjointed sword (usually fsmash).

Fighting solo popo is actually surprisingly hard imo tho, its one of sopo's better MU's I think. Don't really commit to anything that can be easily punished, dd in neutral, and you'll win. You are marth, and, afterall, that does mean that you have the superior neutral and punish game. Also, get sopo above you. She'll never be able to come down!

I actually recently saw a mid-level marth at the SD Arcadian do just this and with great results, see but use less short hop forward air because that's very punishable on reaction.

 

[Signia]

Side-B doesn't clank, which means if someone attacks you at the same time as you side-B them, you are liable to trade (which is usually bad because the first hit of DB is weak with minimal KB).

Uhhh I already addressed this... with the quote in the same post, no less...

Having trancendent priority means that you aren't trading when you out range your opponent, unlike jab, filt, and dtilt which will clank with shorter range moves. If you space a side-B, you won't trade. You'll beat them outright.

Side-B has disjoint, so as long as your spacing isn't terrible it's not going trade or clank, it'll just beat it. The clanking mechanic otherwise makes Marth's disjointedness worthless against ground attacks, since disjointedness only matters when you're up against another attack, but grounded attacks will clank against each other anyway. Trancendent priority lets a longer ranged, more disjointed attack actually beat other grounded attacks.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Rewatch Apex2015 Winners. I feel really, really slow now in moving.

 

[MookieRah]

I didn't think about that, but DB (side B) would be better in situations where you are spaced right and don't actually want to clank. This leads me to my next few questions:

At what percentages against the top tiers does the first hit of DB become safe on hit* (no CC from your opponent) and at what percentages can they no longer CC it? How does this compare to jab?

I'm not really expecting this to be answered directly, but more to start a conversation about these moves and their place. I'm thinking that jab is in general the better option at low percents (the tipper hit isn't bad at all), but at higher percents using DB might be the superior option.

* - I used to use DB all the time back in the day, but then I started getting punished on hit (without CC). This could have been merely a spacing issue, but I would like to confirm that. In any case, aside from floaty chars, I hardly ever use DB because of my past negative experiences from using the move.

 

[Bones0]

Uhhh I already addressed this... with the quote in the same post, no less...



Side-B has disjoint, so as long as your spacing isn't terrible it's not going trade or clank, it'll just beat it. The clanking mechanic otherwise makes Marth's disjointedness worthless against ground attacks, since disjointedness only matters when you're up against another attack, but grounded attacks will clank against each other anyway. Trancendent priority lets a longer ranged, more disjointed attack actually beat other grounded attacks.

Yeah, as long as you're out-ranging, out-spacing, and out-timing the opponent you're fine, but if you are trying to DB vs. another Marth's fsmash or misspace slightly vs. Luigi's dsmash, they're going to get nicked while you get launched. I just don't think it's very reliable to use DB as a means to stuff ground attacks.

 

[BTmoney]

You guys can take 20XX and turn on color coverlays.

Green overlay denotes your character being still and 100% actionable (so after DB 1 ends).

Teal overlay shows hit stun (or some color does, it's clearly labels on the debug menu).

When the obnoxious colors end or show up, then you know. Make sure you SD sometimes for staleness

 

[Bones0]

From what I can tell, there are tons of animations where you are actionable, but you aren't in the stand/wait animation so your character doesn't get the green overlay.