Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[TheBestinWestPalmBeach]

For pivot aerials I mostly do shieldstops instead; that's pewpewu's method as I understand it too. They're considerably easier if a tiny bit slower.

fair enough. Any tips on executing them or am I just in for a grind?

 

[BTmoney]

fair enough. Any tips on executing them or am I just in for a grind?

They're really not challenging. Shield at any point during your dash or dash dance (not run, you can turnaround while dashing but if you dash too long you enter the run state and then you can't turnaround anymore or do clean shield stops)

Dash->let go of the direction-> shield->jump
Try doing that and try doing it out of a DD to get the hang of it

 

[tauKhan]

Dash->let go of the direction-> shield->jump
Try doing that and try doing it out of a DD to get the hang of it

To clarify, you should input shield at the same time you input turn. It's not hard to avoid rolling because of how the input priorities work in this case, and that way you don't waste frames and avoid dash back altogether, which might be useful for spacing.

Of course sometimes you might want to move that little bit before jumping, in which case you delay the shield.

 

[Brave Little DeCoste'R]

Are there any specific things that Marth mains who don't live in a very good region do to practice? I realize shadowboxing is a viable way to practice however I just don't really know how to do that with Marth when it comes to neutral situations. Any specific things you guys do?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Are there any specific things that Marth mains who don't live in a very good region do to practice? I realize shadowboxing is a viable way to practice however I just don't really know how to do that with Marth when it comes to neutral situations. Any specific things you guys do?

I would say work on whatever you end up having issues with the most. Try developing clever routines with the CPU to try applying it in real time.

A very simple thing I think which requires routine practice is simply maintaining your ability to control the character at all. Go mess around with the CPU at various levels from say lv1 to lv9. Play with them and focus on a few simple principles.

• You do not want to get hit.
• You want to hit with the tip.
• You do not want to miss.

You do not want to go in randomly doing whatever, but making sure you are focusing on improving some singular or few point aspects at a time.

 

[FE_Hector]

I would say work on whatever you end up having issues with the most. Try developing clever routines with the CPU to try applying it in real time.

A very simple thing I think which requires routine practice is simply maintaining your ability to control the character at all. Go mess around with the CPU at various levels from say lv1 to lv9. Play with them and focus on a few simple principles.

• You do not want to get hit.
• You want to hit with the tip.
• You do not want to miss.

You do not want to go in randomly doing whatever, but making sure you are focusing on improving some singular or few point aspects at a time.

Just remember not to learn too much from fighting CPUs, especially lvl9's. They have, in a few different circumstances (multiple regarding grabs and power shields) 1-frame reaction times. Also, they have really inhuman DI and tend to teach you bad habits. For example, I 'learned' from lvl9 CPUs that it's a good idea to do a lot of fsmashes and counters, when in reality, it's quite the opposite.

Are there any specific things that Marth mains who don't live in a very good region do to practice? I realize shadowboxing is a viable way to practice however I just don't really know how to do that with Marth when it comes to neutral situations. Any specific things you guys do?

If you have another controller, use it for specifically practicing one or two techniques until you have it down. For example, I'll go into an infinite time match (time match set to where 0 mins would be if you didn't know) with my controller as Marth and my brothers' as Sheik (because she's a pain and learning how to space against her specifically is useful for me). Normally what I'll do is set the stage to FD and just go crazy practicing. What I usually practice is
-Testing out new combos (though it's not too good because a dead controller can't DI)
-Spacing (lots and lots and lots of spacing)
-Wavedashing (including OoS, for the sake of spacing, and even to keep up a PPMD-esque dtilt combo)
-Edge techniques of all sorts (lots of work can always be done here)
-Chain grabbing (M2K-esque)
-Teching/Techrolling (usually have the Sheik controller grab -> dthrow me and I'll quickly switch so I can practice my techs)
Note with the chain grabbing that it's a good practice after a certain point to dash dance -> JC grab

That's about all that I do when I'm practicing on my own. One thing I stand by, though, is that using just about any of these techniques in practice is way different from using them in the heat of the fray, when you have a lot of other factors to pay attention to.

 

[Stride]

Are there any specific things that Marth mains who don't live in a very good region do to practice? I realize shadowboxing is a viable way to practice however I just don't really know how to do that with Marth when it comes to neutral situations. Any specific things you guys do?

Cactuar & KirbyKaze's action state drills: http://myneverendingbrainstorm.blogspot.co.uk/2014/10/diy-ssbm-movement-drills-part-12.html

You don't realise just how imprecise your control of character is until you try to do predefined/specific sequences of actions like this. I've started using them very recently and they've already been very useful. Make sure you can move exactly how you want (using stage markings like those on Pokémon Stadium's can be helpful for judging that).

If you have any tech you can't do consistently, then make sure to practice it until you can (intelligently; noting exactly how you're messing up and what the solution is). Make sure it's near-perfect, not just good enough to be used in tournament; there's bound to be some tech you've learned but neglected to properly practice.

Besides that, there's obviously practicing against CPUs, with particular focus on perfecting micro situations and guaranteed setups; things like chaingrabs and down throw/down tilt traps by the ledge. Pretend they're humans (to an extent) and cover the options they would do if they were, such as spacie side-B recovery. Consciously/purposefully move around them them as if they're actually interacting with you. Get the 20XX hack pack if you don't already have it for some reason.

Study videos. PPMD has written about it, so search for his posts (he's also discussed it frequently in interviews). Record yourself if you can. Have particular focuses in mind (e.g. "I'm going to see how M2K plays around/on the ledge", or "I'm going to pay attention to how PPMD uses d-tilt to zone"). Also, don't just watch videos of top player vs top player matches; it's important to watch top players against opponents of a variety of skill levels. You can still learn from worse players too (especially if you're watching them for specific things that you know they're good at or use heavily), but obviously top players are going to teach you more overall.

In general, you want to think and explore situations. If you see something new or interesting (in a video of another player, when you do it by accident, etc.), then go into the lab explore how/why/whether it works, and think about how you could implement it. You might want to take notes (however cursory) of things you see that could be worth testing.

 

[FE_Hector]

Get the 20XX hack pack if you don't already have it for some reason.

Unfortunately, not everybody can get 20XX and actually make use of it. For example, my only working Wii is one that doesn't support gamecube controllers, and I don't like the feel of any other controller when playing Smash. This might just be my sad self's problem, but in general remember that.

 

[Brave Little DeCoste'R]

Thanks guys. =)

Stride, I remember reading that article (I forgot who wrote it ;p) where the writer talked about how imprecise people were and it was true. I tried shield stopping on very precise parts on pokemon and found I was super inconsistent.

The hardest thing to practice I think when you have no one to play is the neutral game as Marth. I find it pretty difficult to practice against a computer (or just being on the stage by yourself) as if you're fighting against a real person who is trying to outplay you. I guess it just requires a lot of thought!

 

[Stride]

Unfortunately, not everybody can get 20XX and actually make use of it. For example, my only working Wii is one that doesn't support gamecube controllers, and I don't like the feel of any other controller when playing Smash. This might just be my sad self's problem, but in general remember that.

Not having a Wii that supports GameCube controllers is covered under "some reason". That, along with only having a GameCube, not having a console at all, or only having a broken console, are all practically the same problems; the solution is just to get a compatible Wii.

As I write this there are 7 2nd hand Wiis for under £25 on amazon.co.uk, and 7 for under 45USD on amazon.com (and there are probably cheaper ones if you look elsewhere). The 20XX pack alone makes it more than worth buying a Wii at that price. I understand that people might not always have the money to spend, but it's not overly difficult to obtain £25 (and it's certainly worthwhile to do so).

 

[FE_Hector]

Not having a Wii that supports GameCube controllers is covered under "some reason". That, along with only having a GameCube, not having a console at all, or only having a broken console, are all practically the same problems; the solution is just to get a compatible Wii.

As I write this there are 7 2nd hand Wiis for under £25 on amazon.co.uk, and 7 for under 45USD on amazon.com (and there are probably cheaper ones if you look elsewhere). The 20XX pack alone makes it more than worth buying a Wii at that price. I understand that people might not always have the money to spend, but it's not overly difficult to obtain £25 (and it's certainly worthwhile to do so).

I'll look into that once I can. The biggest problems right now are 1) I don't have a job right now (but I am looking for one - I'm in high school) and 2) I plan on getting a WiiU first.

 

[CoCo_Jungle]

Guys how effective is SH in place into Nair or (late) aerial?

 

[FE_Hector]

Guys how effective is SH in place into Nair or (late) aerial?

Unless you're PPMD, I don't recommend nairs in neutral. However, a SHFFL late fair in place is an excellent and typically unpredictable defensive technique.

 

[CoCo_Jungle]

Unless you're PPMD, I don't recommend nairs in neutral. However, a SHFFL late fair in place is an excellent and typically unpredictable defensive technique.

Yeah I've done it a couple times by accident and it seemed to not screw me over, especially vs. Fox and Luigi.

 

[FE_Hector]

Yeah I've done it a couple times by accident and it seemed to not screw me over, especially vs. Fox and Luigi.

If it seems to not screw you over, it's either something good or your opponent sucks. Hope it's the fore but be wary of the latter.

 

[DeadPigeon]

Guys how effective is SH in place into Nair or (late) aerial?

SH in place to nair or fair (both late) are both really good. The important thing about using nair in neutral is to not approach with it. You can use it to try to catch your opponent rushing you or attempting to take advantage of landing lag. Also acceptable is short hop back to nair. Just don't jump towards them and nair and expect a good result.

 

[FE_Hector]

SH in place to nair or fair (both late) are both really good. The important thing about using nair in neutral is to not approach with it. You can use it to try to catch your opponent rushing you or attempting to take advantage of landing lag. Also acceptable is short hop back to nair. Just don't jump towards them and nair and expect a good result.

Unless you're PPMD.

 

[DeadPigeon]

Unless you're PPMD.

When have you seen the doctor approach with nair?

 

[FE_Hector]

When have you seen the doctor approach with nair?

I'm almost sure he did it against Armada at Apex. His late nairs were pretty effective

 

[TFS | Zeb]

When have you seen the doctor approach with nair?

He does it every now and then. Most of PP's approaches, that I can tell anyway, are run cancelled down tilts, spaced SH fairs (often overshooting them), and DD grabs. But every now and then you'll see him approach with a nair. An example off the top of my head is Apex 2015, PP vs. PPU game 3.

Edit: Another, Apex 2015 PP vs. S2J, the very opening of the match.

 

[ChivalRuse]

PPMD does use nair a good amount, and quite effectively. It's just that his uair and fairs are so good that they overshadow his nairs.

 

[DeadPigeon]

He does it every now and then. Most of PP's approaches, that I can tell anyway, are run cancelled down tilts, spaced SH fairs (often overshooting them), and DD grabs. But every now and then you'll see him approach with a nair. An example off the top of my head is Apex 2015, PP vs. PPU game 3.

Edit: Another, Apex 2015 PP vs. S2J, the very opening of the match.

You're right. The nair against PPU didn't lead to anything though. The nair against s2j... PP, why did you nair there? How did you know?

 

[FE_Hector]

You're right. The nair against PPU didn't lead to anything though. The nair against s2j... PP, why did you nair there? How did you know?

He's PPMD... he knows. There is neither an explanation nor a need for one. That or he likes to mix up his options because a nair could handle wavedashes away from a fair/dair, and how he late he does nairs, combined with the auto-cancel, makes it a fairly viable choice. I'd say that nair's on an approach aren't a particularly bad idea, but they can grow predictable and can be easy to counter (not the move). That's probably why so many people have the phrase "never nair an approach" ingrained in their memory.

 

[DeadPigeon]

He's PPMD... he knows. There is neither an explanation nor a need for one. That or he likes to mix up his options because a nair could handle wavedashes away from a fair/dair, and how he late he does nairs, combined with the auto-cancel, makes it a fairly viable choice. I'd say that nair's on an approach aren't a particularly bad idea, but they can grow predictable and can be easy to counter (not the move). That's probably why so many people have the phrase "never nair an approach" ingrained in their memory.

Wavedash back would have avoided nair too. Late nair doesn't autocancel. While PP does clearly use nair to approach sometimes, it is incredibly rare and it's clear that he prefers fair, dd, dtilt, and grab in neutral. I wouldn't say it's a good approach, but ok to throw in as a mixup sometimes.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I did the one vs S2J because I predicted he like most Falcons would probably come forward in some way to immediately challenge me coming forward and he did.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Did you react to the subsequent two rolls by Johnny or did you just read them?

 

[Dr Peepee]

It looks like a careful mix of both but I have no problem saying I was open to that being one of the likely actions and reacting accordingly.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Yeah, bearing an option in mind helps with reacting because it allows us time to calculate a response ahead of time.

 

[FE_Hector]

Stay open to options, don't go for too many reads, react quickly, and, as always, don't get hit. Got it. And DeadPigeon, I was more joking than anything.

 

[Siccamende]

What is the DI and percentage range that makes up-throw f-smash tipper work on spacies? I'm not sure if you can tipper f-smash with no DI, maybe with slight DI? I really don't have anyone to check for me

 

[FE_Hector]

What is the DI and percentage range that makes up-throw f-smash tipper work on spacies? I'm not sure if you can tipper f-smash with no DI, maybe with slight DI? I really don't have anyone to check for me

If the space has decent DI, I don't think it'll ever work. There's probably a % at which grab -> back throw -> reverse f-smash will work provided that the spacie misses a tech, but it's difficult. If nobody beats me to getting that percentage, I'll edit it into this post in a few hours when I can test.

 

[net1234]

small thing about the sheik matchup. theres a sheik that likes to jump and throw needles at a 45 degree angle. whats the best way to punish this on reaction? i can jump and swat it with a fair if i read it but of not i get clipped by the needle trying to punish. any tips?

 

[net1234]

What is the DI and percentage range that makes up-throw f-smash tipper work on spacies? I'm not sure if you can tipper f-smash with no DI, maybe with slight DI? I really don't have anyone to check for me

doublepost it works from like 54% if (if u get the nasty back tipper the normal tipper is at 60%)to like about 80 or 85 im not really sure but theres various delays depending on %. on it. from like 60-64 u can tipper any di (not sure abut slight di but any normal left or right di) from standing but after that you have to walk slightly towards them to follow it up.

 

[Siccamende]

Not sure if this a general question to mention but I've been having difficulty noticing mistakes that I do in a match. I don't go to tournaments that often and still haven't been able to have a recorded match against someone else. This problem is so bad that I need other players to point it out for me on Netplay. For example, I didn't realize until today that I've been DJing out of Hitstun from a lot of moves (especially throws). I really want to find some sort of way to realize mistakes and correct them either during or right after the match until I finally get footage of myself.

 

[Bones0]

Not sure if this a general question to mention but I've been having difficulty noticing mistakes that I do in a match. I don't go to tournaments that often and still haven't been able to have a recorded match against someone else. This problem is so bad that I need other players to point it out for me on Netplay. For example, I didn't realize until today that I've been DJing out of Hitstun from a lot of moves (especially throws). I really want to find some sort of way to realize mistakes and correct them either during or right after the match until I finally get footage of myself.

As soon as you get hit, figure out what situation you were in immediately before you got hit and also why you were in that situation.

 

[FE_Hector]

small thing about the sheik matchup. theres a sheik that likes to jump and throw needles at a 45 degree angle. whats the best way to punish this on reaction? i can jump and swat it with a fair if i read it but of not i get clipped by the needle trying to punish. any tips?

Well, that's a pretty punishable move imo. My brother uses Sheik, and I'm pretty sure that the Needles leave her really vulnerable after they're all off. If she just uses a single jump, run in towards her and get inside the needle radius, and punish however you feel like. If she uses a double jump, wait her out and try to DD -> CC dtilt as soon as possible. I'd actually say that the best way to keep this from happening is to put too much pressure on her to let it happen. Stay in really close and keep stacking it up on her. I know it's easier said than done, but really all Marth needs to get Sheik down is a hit or two. A grab -> down or back throw with your back to the edge can work wonders, and a grab -> back throw -> reverse fsmash will land at a lot of %s assuming the Sheik misses their tech. Alternately, you can use the ever-wonderful grab -> uthrow -> utilt -> SH fair) double fair's can work, too). Back to the Needles specifically, don't try to hit them unless it's a lone needle. They waste a lot of time after making contact with Marth's sword - crucial time for Sheik to get back to the ground. Hope this helps!

 

[ChivalRuse]

What is the DI and percentage range that makes up-throw f-smash tipper work on spacies? I'm not sure if you can tipper f-smash with no DI, maybe with slight DI? I really don't have anyone to check for me

Check Kadano's thread for that data. I know that you can u-throw and walk a little to adjust for the DI before throwing out the tipper.

 

[DeadPigeon]

small thing about the sheik matchup. theres a sheik that likes to jump and throw needles at a 45 degree angle. whats the best way to punish this on reaction? i can jump and swat it with a fair if i read it but of not i get clipped by the needle trying to punish. any tips?

Well, that's a pretty punishable move imo. My brother uses Sheik, and I'm pretty sure that the Needles leave her really vulnerable after they're all off. If she just uses a single jump, run in towards her and get inside the needle radius, and punish however you feel like. If she uses a double jump, wait her out and try to DD -> CC dtilt as soon as possible. I'd actually say that the best way to keep this from happening is to put too much pressure on her to let it happen. Stay in really close and keep stacking it up on her. I know it's easier said than done, but really all Marth needs to get Sheik down is a hit or two. A grab -> down or back throw with your back to the edge can work wonders, and a grab -> back throw -> reverse fsmash will land at a lot of %s assuming the Sheik misses their tech. Alternately, you can use the ever-wonderful grab -> uthrow -> utilt -> SH fair) double fair's can work, too). Back to the Needles specifically, don't try to hit them unless it's a lone needle. They waste a lot of time after making contact with Marth's sword - crucial time for Sheik to get back to the ground. Hope this helps!

Relying on your opponent missing a tech is really not that good, especially when it's an easy tech

 

[FE_Hector]

Relying on your opponent missing a tech is really not that good, especially when it's an easy tech

I didn't say that I expected them to miss the tech, but if they do that's generally my first reaction. Don't expect them to miss any tech, but cover options if they do.

 

[DeadPigeon]

I didn't say that I expected them to miss the tech, but if they do that's generally my first reaction. Don't expect them to miss any tech, but cover options if they do.

Marth's Fsmash hits the ground on frame 12. It takes marth 34 frames after he bthrows sheik to be actionable. A missed tech takes 26 frames to complete. It takes at least 6 frames to react to the green flash. This means that sheik must take longer than about half a second to hit the ground after a back throw for this to be a true tech chase option. I haven't tested, but I doubt that it works.