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Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

Dr Peepee

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I do SH rising Fair. I often do it in response to jumps(usually in response to Dtilt threat...so they come in or go onto a platform) and more rarely in response to grounded actions so I can surprise combo. Although if you watch my videos I seem to do the opposite. This is because my awareness is really low when I play right now and I ask for patience for me to demonstrate different things.

It seems as though you need to work more Fair into your game. Dtilt covers the ground and grab mostly does too. You need to threaten the air more then, especially if you are able to successfully poke/threaten with Dtilt.
 

Siccamende

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So I was thinking to myself about Dash Dancing and what it means and I was thinking about how to prevent yourself from getting pinned to the edge, if your opponents catches on that you are waiting for him to commit to something, can't he just slowly walk up and pressure you to do something? What can you do to get out of that?

Second question, this is one is for PPMD, but this is a specific moment in a set.
At Apex 2015, you were playing Leffen in Winners Finals and it was game 1. As Leffen was N-airing at you and you dodged it, you turn around you commit to an F-smash at low percent and Leffen punishes it with a Shine OoS. I was wondering why would you commit to something like that at a very low percent(I don't think what the commentator said about why you committed to that was right)?
 

Dr Peepee

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if someone is slowly walking up then they enter different threat ranges you can threaten them back with. walking is unusual and you can go into most options from it but it is slow so it's pretty easy to contain unless your dashes don't have much purpose or you're off balance.

for your other question, my mental stability was low at apex so i needed more high reward options that could get free damage and lots of positioning and potentially a kill. sometimes it turned into foolish plays like that and sometimes it worked. I was making due with my poor focus like I likely will again this weekend. The play(and fsmashes =p) will certainly clean up pretty soon though.
 

A4k1ng

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I just started Marth and for now I can only practice on my own. I can practice tech fine, but how can I work on making sure my spacing and nuetral game are ok?
 

Smash G 0 D

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I just started Marth and for now I can only practice on my own. I can practice tech fine, but how can I work on making sure my spacing and nuetral game are ok?
If you don't have the 20XX hack pack downloaded, I recommend it. But the Hack Pack is only good for practice your options IN neutral. Developing a strong neutral game is something you do by playing other opponents, learning what kinds of things different players/characters do in neutral and developing your instinctual responses to those actions.

Alone, you should practice your dash dances (short, medium, long, etc.), wavedashes, wavelands on platforms, pivots, etc. You want to make sure your movement, in the words of The Moon, "silky smooth." In general, you will find that Dtilt, Fair, and Nair are strong tools in neutral. However, other high tiers can punish you if you swing first, so you have to make reads with those attacks.

Also, I tweeted about this, but @ Dr Peepee Dr Peepee is right - pivot rising Fair is very good vs. Fox (I tested it out a bit today in a high-level round robin). I've been using a lot of pivot Nair in my neutral recently, and it's great for catching running shine and slightly misspaced SHFFL Nairs, but the Fair can cover those options a bit more quickly, AND lead into more follow-ups. I think a healthy mix of the two strengthen Marth's neutral game vs. Fox.
 
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BRUJO~

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@ Dr Peepee Dr Peepee I have a question that is only kind of marth related...

I have discovered that I'm very good at observing patterns and being able to see predict what my opponent is going to do. However, I fail to capitalize on this strength because even if I know what they are going to do, I don't always know how best to counter what they are doing.

When you observe a pattern mid game, what is your general thought process for coming up with a punish? What questions do you ask yourself? Thanks :)
 

Dr Peepee

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I suggest taking time to figure it out on the respawn platform or in between games. Unless you have strategized and trained and understood well in your down time, it's pretty unlikely to come up with too much in the moment. That's why I say using times to consciously think through solutions is best.
 

Bones0

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@ Dr Peepee Dr Peepee I have a question that is only kind of marth related...

I have discovered that I'm very good at observing patterns and being able to see predict what my opponent is going to do. However, I fail to capitalize on this strength because even if I know what they are going to do, I don't always know how best to counter what they are doing.

When you observe a pattern mid game, what is your general thought process for coming up with a punish? What questions do you ask yourself? Thanks :)
Keep in mind that part of punishing habits is being in a position to punish them. If your opponent is a Falco that always LHDLs, then you need to be near the ledge. If you position yourself better, they might not LHDL after all, in which case they weren't really doing it habitually, but rather doing it based on where you were when they grabbed the ledge. The best way to figure out how to punish habits is to first figure out what you want. Marth usually won't want to punish a low % opponent with up-B because it yields no reward and is almost guaranteed to give them a punish of their own. If your ideal punish starts from a grab, then that's what you want to be focused on. Ofc, a grab might not be in the cards based on the situation, but if you can quickly evaluate which options will give you the hardest punishes and cross reference that with the options that are easiest/safest/most likely to work, you can select the best punish more consistently.

Once you know what you want to punish with, figure out what you have to do in order to set up the punish. If you want to punish a habitual whiff with a grab, then it's in your best interest to stay grounded so that you can quickly swoop in on them. If you want to punish a jump or action with a uair when they're stuck on a platform, you will probably want to jump underneath the plat so you are in a position where you can reactively uair.
 
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MEnKIRBZ

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This is a question to anyone, not just pp.


So what part of the sword/hitbox do I need to hit someone with the fair to setup the Ken combo? I have gotten this on many types of players (as in ranging from players much better to much worse), but I still don't understand where I have to hit them to set it up despite getting it before (basically I've gotten lucky). I've also gotten a reverse Ken combo somehow and I wasnt even going for that lol. I just saw that it set them up so I did it. Anywaaay, can anyone help me on this?

Edit: also if this has been asked and answered before in this thread could you please tell me what page it was on? Thanks
 
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FE_Hector

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This is a question to anyone, not just pp.


So what part of the sword/hitbox do I need to hit someone with the fair to setup the Ken combo? I have gotten this on many types of players (as in ranging from players much better to much worse), but I still don't understand where I have to hit them to set it up despite getting it before (basically I've gotten lucky). I've also gotten a reverse Ken combo somehow and I wasnt even going for that lol. I just saw that it set them up so I did it. Anywaaay, can anyone help me on this?

Edit: also if this has been asked and answered before in this thread could you please tell me what page it was on? Thanks
I'm not entirely sure about Ken Comboing as I'm fairly sure most people will now just DI up out of a fair and pretty much ruin the Ken Combo, but I think it's the area more in front of Marth than above him as that's going to hit them more out than up.
 

FE_Hector

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@ Dr Peepee Dr Peepee

I've got two things I've been wondering.

1) A lot of the time when we're training, my bro will ask me what I just did to him when I pull a trick that throws him off and typically leads to his death (take that Sheik!), but half the time, I can't even remember. Do you think not remembering exactly what I did 5 seconds ago in a match is a bad thing?

2) Sorta-kinda Marth question, but I'm working on getting a good Falco as my secondary, and what Marth habits do you think transfer over to Falco well? I've had a bit of success with surprise Dtilts, but I know not to use those like Marth can, but I haven't had any other really Marth-esque things that I think translate well to Falco.
 

Dr3amSm4sher

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The ken combo is dependent on character and percent. If you are trying to do tipper fair to dair at the low percents (35-50) on spacies, sheik, roy and high fall speeds in general you want the person above you when doing the fair. At higher percents (70-85) you want to hit them with the bottom part of fair. For floaties you always want to hit them with the bottom of tipper fair.

There is also the ken that is weak fair to dair. There is this weakspot on the blade of fair in between the tip and the hilt that if you hit the the higher part you can do an midair jump to immediate dair (Like immediate. You may want to use z for this). It sends them not that far up or forward at 50-85. This works on the whole cast and its up to you to find the spacing required.

These are all DI dependent btw.
The tipper fair is really weak to DI away.
The weak hit fair is a bit harder to di.
 
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Dr Peepee

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@ Dr Peepee Dr Peepee

I've got two things I've been wondering.

1) A lot of the time when we're training, my bro will ask me what I just did to him when I pull a trick that throws him off and typically leads to his death (take that Sheik!), but half the time, I can't even remember. Do you think not remembering exactly what I did 5 seconds ago in a match is a bad thing?

2) Sorta-kinda Marth question, but I'm working on getting a good Falco as my secondary, and what Marth habits do you think transfer over to Falco well? I've had a bit of success with surprise Dtilts, but I know not to use those like Marth can, but I haven't had any other really Marth-esque things that I think translate well to Falco.
1. Yes and no. It's important to remember when possible so you can correct these things, but it helps to record yourself so you know what you usually go for and then when you think back you consider what happened in relation to that. Sometimes though when you're really focused you won't pay attention regardless, and that's why recording things is good. Your friend could also see what you did then.

2. Spacing moves on shield is pretty good as Falco. Getting under people when they get hit high up then beating their options is another good thing that transfers. Those are probably the ones I notice most and see in other Marths that play other characters.
 
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@ Dr Peepee Dr Peepee
There is a problem with the Fox/Marth match-up I have been having a slew of issues with on how to deal with properly. Imagine Fox and Marth on FD and we avoid all possibility of platform play.

I am trying to figure out how to break up the match-up into such that I can put Fox into a strong punish. Namely I land a grab or Fox ends up offstage from say Dtilt. I know dozens of situations where this might occur. Suppose Fox full hops or even 2nd jumps. This is an immediate position to be able to come in and get a free grab, SH Fair, Dtilt, etc. which starts my punish.

However, I am not certain how I might incrementally go about forcing these situations. Namely I feel Fox has a plethora of options at usually several moments when grounded. Marth often has a counter to pretty much all of these options, but I feel I cannot cover all of them.

If I dash back, I can no longer cover the time when Fox dashes away himself. Fox has nothing to fear from Marth continuing to dash away and he can try to chase me down with run -> shine. But, if I dash towards Fox as he dashes away I can get a Dtilt out of it.

Anyway, I see all of these actions and reaction methods between Fox and marth, but not sure how to combine all of it into a single strategy to pull out that is independent of the person I am playing. Maybe the game is impossible to play without some level of guess work.
 
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FE_Hector

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1. Yes and no. It's important to remember when possible so you can correct these things, but it helps to record yourself so you know what you usually go for and then when you think back you consider what happened in relation to that. Sometimes though when you're really focused you won't pay attention regardless, and that's why recording things is good. Your friend could also see what you did then.

2. Spacing moves on shield is pretty good as Falco. Getting under people when they get hit high up then beating their options is another good thing that transfers. Those are probably the ones I notice most and see in other Marths that play other characters.
Alright, thanks a ton. I'll try to see if we've got a good SD card lying around so I can record more of our battles.

Thanks regarding Falco. I wouldn't have thought to space moves well on shields with him. That probably saved a lot of trouble.
 

Dr Peepee

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@ Dr Peepee Dr Peepee
There is a problem with the Fox/Marth match-up I have been having a slew of issues with on how to deal with properly. Imagine Fox and Marth on FD and we avoid all possibility of platform play.

I am trying to figure out how to break up the match-up into such that I can put Fox into a strong punish. Namely I land a grab or Fox ends up offstage from say Dtilt. I know dozens of situations where this might occur. Suppose Fox full hops or even 2nd jumps. This is an immediate position to be able to come in and get a free grab, SH Fair, Dtilt, etc. which starts my punish.

However, I am not certain how I might incrementally go about forcing these situations. Namely I feel Fox has a plethora of options at usually several moments when grounded. Marth often has a counter to pretty much all of these options, but I feel I cannot cover all of them.

If I dash back, I can no longer cover the time when Fox dashes away himself. Fox has nothing to fear from Marth continuing to dash away and he can try to chase me down with run -> shine. But, if I dash towards Fox as he dashes away I can get a Dtilt out of it.

Anyway, I see all of these actions and reaction methods between Fox and marth, but not sure how to combine all of it into a single strategy to pull out that is independent of the person I am playing. Maybe the game is impossible to play without some level of guess work.
You want a good punish and that's fine, but first you have to consider how to get there like you said. You should start with threatening range, the options those characters have there. What can you control? What can you threaten with? What are your weaknesses and mixups on these things? Then do the same for Fox.

I can't lay out everything I think because I would be writing for a month if I were to do that lol. If you start in the beginning of neutral and move through there you will be alright. Trial and error and video watching are great tools.

If I were to give a broad strategy it would be to make Fox struggle any time he's in landing lag(not always with a direct punish) and to make him respect your range.
 
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You want a good punish and that's fine, but first you have to consider how to get there like you said. You should start with threatening range, the options those characters have there. What can you control? What can you threaten with? What are your weaknesses and mixups on these things? Then do the same for Fox.

I can't lay out everything I think because I would be writing for a month if I were to do that lol. If you start in the beginning of neutral and move through there you will be alright. Trial and error and video watching are great tools.

If I were to give a broad strategy it would be to make Fox struggle any time he's in landing lag(not always with a direct punish) and to make him respect your range.
I did not expect a full blown response. I was simply looking for reinforcement that I am heading in the general direction and possibly use that to expand my own understanding of what to change.

Would you possibly agree with these statements?

You cannot possibly react to everything and at some moments there will be some guess work. Part of the goal is to avoid choosing guesswork over situations which you can reliable respond too. A classic one is rather than doing guess work on tech chases with Falcon you choose to react to tech options. If you do you have to guess try to choose the best options available at the time.

As for Fox vs Marth would you say:
1) I need to establish that I can hold the ground that I have. Such as I have Dtilt for ground and say SH Nair/Fair for aerials used against. Therefore, I want to deny movements which seek to come at me and steal my space or hit me.
2) After the first part I can start to expect that I can more reliably get away with using say dash back and start to push forward against the space Fox is giving up trying to deal with my threats of me trying to keep the ground that I had.

When this happens I might better lead into my goal of landing a strong initiator for punishes.
 
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RedmanSSBM

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@ Dr Peepee Dr Peepee Let's say you're playing as Marth on FD vs Fox. In terms of neutral, what I'm thinking is that Marth wants to use his movement and dtilt (to cover the ground) and fair (to cover the air) in order to not directly hit Fox with those moves, but instead threaten him to push him to a corner of the stage, so that his options are cut off, correct? I think this is zoning in a nutshell.

I feel like that is how neutral needs to be played when you have a fast character. It's kind of the same with Falcon in that Falcon wants to take up space by jumping forward and nairing, again not to necessarily hit the opponent, but to just take up space and continue cutting off options from the opponent until you are able to land a hit and start a punish.
 

Dr Peepee

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Sometimes you want to hit, and sometimes you don't. Zoning is more about space control in the way you described. Falcon can Nair in place and be more safe as an additional example to what you said.
 

FE_Hector

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@ Dr Peepee Dr Peepee Let's say you're playing as Marth on FD vs Fox. In terms of neutral, what I'm thinking is that Marth wants to use his movement and dtilt (to cover the ground) and fair (to cover the air) in order to not directly hit Fox with those moves, but instead threaten him to push him to a corner of the stage, so that his options are cut off, correct? I think this is zoning in a nutshell.

I feel like that is how neutral needs to be played when you have a fast character. It's kind of the same with Falcon in that Falcon wants to take up space by jumping forward and nairing, again not to necessarily hit the opponent, but to just take up space and continue cutting off options from the opponent until you are able to land a hit and start a punish.
On top of what Dr Peepee said, I don't think that not hitting is always a good idea. If you've seen, well, even PPMD fighting against Fox in tournaments (Apex vs Leffen/Armada), there's some spacing in there, but for the most part, the overwhelming speed of Fox makes it difficult.

On a more personal note, @ Dr Peepee Dr Peepee , 1) are you going to EVO and 2) if yes, I'm interested to see if you get to fight Leffen. He looked insane at CEO, but I think you're probably better :awesome:
 

Dr Peepee

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Well I know it's important to be able to believe I can do it, which I do. I also have to be honest with myself after the play I've seen and focus I have compared to what I know I can do/have done. I somehow won Apex by simply thinking I would be fine even if I wasn't in shape(regardless of placing), so I'm mostly trying that again now.

I'm not disagreeing with your point necessarily but if I am full power I would certainly be pleasantly surprised this weekend haha.
 

Smash G 0 D

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Well I know it's important to be able to believe I can do it, which I do. I also have to be honest with myself after the play I've seen and focus I have compared to what I know I can do/have done. I somehow won Apex by simply thinking I would be fine even if I wasn't in shape(regardless of placing), so I'm mostly trying that again now.

I'm not disagreeing with your point necessarily but if I am full power I would certainly be pleasantly surprised this weekend haha.
Hey I'll be at EVO! I'd love to play you sometime this weekend whenever you're around ;) I've been pushing my Marth a lot these past few months - it would be great to get some live application / discussion going with you. Top-level Marths are rare to come by.
 
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Sempai

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I can discuss, but I honestly don't believe I'll have spare energy to play often the whole weekend. I love talking about the game so lemme know =)
As a Sheik and Marth Player myself, what do you think would be beneficial for me to perfect?
WD back punishes, intricacies in SH baits, or neutral game movement, etc?
 

FE_Hector

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As a Sheik and Marth Player myself, what do you think would be beneficial for me to perfect?
WD back punishes, intricacies in SH baits, or neutral game movement, etc?
In my opinion, chaingrabs with Sheik, neutral game and DD baiting for Marth, and follow-ups for both
 

BTmoney

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I can discuss, but I honestly don't believe I'll have spare energy to play often the whole weekend. I love talking about the game so lemme know =)
good luck kevin nanney! you have all the blue guys cheering for you

and I love your platform follow ups on fox, how you don't super hard commit to getting the ideal uair like most marths do. I see you get a lot of fairs, nairs, and bairs in situations where I would have tried to time a uair and missed or it'd be very very hard to hit
 
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Dr3amSm4sher

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Learn the grab follow ups. Both characters heavily rely on them. (As both don't really have the tools to bring people out of CC percents) Mess with your fair timings on shield. Also, get your edgeguarding on point. An offstage enemy is a dead enemy. (Or a least should be). With sheik: Needles, turnaround needle cancel dj bair, drop from ledge dj bair, Runoff stage dj fair, full hop and short hop autocancel needle gimps and invincible shino stalls into invincible ledge hop nair. CC dsmash is too strong. Both characters heavily rely on spacing. Please get that as amazing as possible. Be able to get what ever hitboxes you would like at any given time regardless of the other characters movement.

Marth's neutral is very reliant on movement. Be able to change your dash dance distance and speed at any time. Be able to get into run cancel dtilt as quickly and smoothly as possible. Pivot grabs are amazing btw. Wavedashes in general are really good. Please get good at the chaingrab. Dtilt, jab, and runoff fair are your best friends edgeguarding on stage. Even ledgehop dair is really good if you read a recovery. Avoid fsmash like the plague unless you are 100% sure you are going to hit it and they won't tech. Even neutral b is better than fsmash for edgeguarding as it does not extend your hurtbox as far off as fsmash and you can easily control the charge. Bair and counter are really good against firefox. You may want to use it. Oh, one last thing, marth can't really approach with aerials well. Most of his can be CC into a punish.
 
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Siccamende

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Sort of unrelated question. But I heard the new Smash controllers are better than the original White controllers that are sold on eBay and Amazon, is this true?

Also, I find that I have difficulty playing the neutral on Small stages like Yoshis and FoD since I can't really Run-Cancel D-tilt that often, especially against Falcos. What am I doing wrong and is there a way I could safely play the neutral on a small stage?
 

SnorlaxLuigi

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In general, what is the trajectory on the different areas of Marth's U-tilt hitbox, tippered and non tippered? Is it something you just have to kind of feel out? Thanks.
 

FE_Hector

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Sort of unrelated question. But I heard the new Smash controllers are better than the original White controllers that are sold on eBay and Amazon, is this true?

Also, I find that I have difficulty playing the neutral on Small stages like Yoshis and FoD since I can't really Run-Cancel D-tilt that often, especially against Falcos. What am I doing wrong and is there a way I could safely play the neutral on a small stage?
Apparently the triggers are weird on the new controllers

Marth's sword can patrol like all of YS at once. If you love your dtilts, try WD into dtilt. Generally that works better cuz its really easy to sniff out a run cancelled dtilt cuz Marth rarely just charges his opponent. To play the neutral on small stages, just force whiffs, get grabs, and convert everything to a kill.

In general, what is the trajectory on the different areas of Marth's U-tilt hitbox, tippered and non tippered? Is it something you just have to kind of feel out? Thanks.
This is a better question for Kadano, but I could help some. Behind Marth is always a tipper. Besides that and the occasional crazy angle, they fly at about the same angle you'd think they would. More up if they're above you, and more to the sides of they're more next to you.
 

Dr3amSm4sher

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There is a gif of utilt somewhere. If you ever have questions about hitboxes and angles just go look in the Project M hitbox data. They have the angles for the attacks and ID values. It saves so much time.

The new black controllers have really stiff sticks and really strange triggers. (They kinda catch on stuff. It hard to explain) The new white ones have the same stiff stick and nicer triggers. The stiff sticks go away after some time.
 

Bonestorm

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Convention states that Marth's dash attack is slow, laggy, and generally not advisable. However, at all levels of play, I'm seeing frequent use of it from neutral in the marth ditto. Is it just especially worth it in this matchup only? I've taught myself to use it close to never but I've been caught by it so many times that I'm starting to wonder how exactly I should implement it into my ditto game. It's starting to seem almost interchangable with a wavedash into dtilt (except for times when dash attack is the best option such as after a high-percent fthrow with away DI). It's just so unsafe on shield that I can't convince myself to use it.

tl;dr, What is dash attack's place in the ditto? How do I use it properly?
 
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FE_Hector

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Double post, but I don't care. Not even a question, I've just gotta say where I know you'll see it.

@ Dr Peepee Dr Peepee Great job at EVO. Third place after no tournament appearances is amazing! You're literally my favorite God of Melee and I want you to show them that you ARE the best in the world! I live in NC myself and honestly train in hopes of being able to give you a challenge some day! Great job man!
 

BlueX

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I find spacies match ups very hard. :falcomelee::foxmelee:

All of this happened on a PM match with a lvl 3 CPU Falco. I was playing as Roy but i feel like that knowing the best options will also help my Melee Marth.

1. I am not sure on what to do with lasers. The only thing I can do is to shield but it's terrible. I heard that dashing and D-tilting works but i attempted this and I did a D-Smash by accident.

2. I struggled alot when I was rushed in and comboed very badly. The only thing I could really do was really to try my best to attack but I was extremely defenceless.

What are the best options for both of my problems? Thank you! :):pichumelee:
 
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