Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[FE_Hector]

Well, since you're talking right now (lol), I've got a quick question. My bro is a Sheik main, and as such my primary training partner, but he HATES fighting outside of FD. When we're on a stage with platforms, I can easily outmaneuver him and dismantle most of his strategy, leading to easy victories, but we're pretty even without platforms. What tips do you have for vs. Sheik in FD? One thing I've been actively working on is not squandering my second jump, which I realized I've been doing a lot recently. Probably the worst situation for me is when he starts comboing with uair and I have to risk a dair to knock him out.

 

[tonic]

I like them both since you need to threaten with dash forward to make either effective. Also to help you keep track of things there is a difference in dash WD Dtilt and just WD Dtilt.

Why do you need to dash forward? WD dtilt, at max length covers nearly as much ground as runcancel dtilt, while dash WD dtilt can go farther. I'm thinking of situations in which you're dashdancing and then chasing someone down https://youtu.be/00kWf6lvDhU?t=5m38s like here, why did you specifically choose runcancel over WD dtilt? Other instances:
https://youtu.be/00kWf6lvDhU?t=4m20s (beginning of match)
https://youtu.be/00kWf6lvDhU?t=6m02s (off respawn)

 

[tonic]

Well, since you're talking right now (lol), I've got a quick question. My bro is a Sheik main, and as such my primary training partner, but he HATES fighting outside of FD. When we're on a stage with platforms, I can easily outmaneuver him and dismantle most of his strategy, leading to easy victories, but we're pretty even without platforms. What tips do you have for vs. Sheik in FD? One thing I've been actively working on is not squandering my second jump, which I realized I've been doing a lot recently. Probably the worst situation for me is when he starts comboing with uair and I have to risk a dair to knock him out.

On FD, needles become a slightly bigger problem and you really have to play against Sheik's boost grab, dash attack, and WD ftilt honestly without using platforms as a safe haven. Practice dashdancing just outside her range and whiff punish her anytime she throws out these approaches, and you can short hop right above and out of range of her grab and dash attack. Otherwise, you should love playing on FD because of the amazing punishes Marth has on Sheik on this stage, comparable to Sheik's on you on every other stage. Learn upthrow followups vs Sheik and try to base most of your game off grabbing her and punishing hard. You should only be using dair as a big mixup or a last resort, because of how easy it is to whiff and eat another upair. Try instead to make the most of your aerial drift, sideB, DJ, airdodge, and even counter to get back down instead of relying on dair.

 

[FE_Hector]

On FD, needles become a slightly bigger problem and you really have to play against Sheik's boost grab, dash attack, and WD ftilt honestly without using platforms as a safe haven. Practice dashdancing just outside her range and whiff punish her anytime she throws out these approaches, and you can short hop right above and out of range of her grab and dash attack. Otherwise, you should love playing on FD because of the amazing punishes Marth has on Sheik on this stage, comparable to Sheik's on you on every other stage. Learn upthrow followups vs Sheik and try to base most of your game off grabbing her and punishing hard. You should only be using dair as a big mixup or a last resort, because of how easy it is to whiff and eat another upair. Try instead to make the most of your aerial drift, sideB, DJ, airdodge, and even counter to get back down instead of relying on dair.

Sounds good. Like I said I'm working on not wasting my DJ. I keep forgetting about sideB to alter momentum, and I've intentionally removed Counter from my mindset 100% of the time but may use it a few times in that situation now.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Why do you need to dash forward? WD dtilt, at max length covers nearly as much ground as runcancel dtilt, while dash WD dtilt can go farther. I'm thinking of situations in which you're dashdancing and then chasing someone down https://youtu.be/00kWf6lvDhU?t=5m38s like here, why did you specifically choose runcancel over WD dtilt? Other instances:
https://youtu.be/00kWf6lvDhU?t=4m20s (beginning of match)
https://youtu.be/00kWf6lvDhU?t=6m02s (off respawn)

chose it in the first link because i wanted to go farther with dtilt. thats generally the reason i use it. and you dont need to dash forward but sometimes you want that extra space boost.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I just talk when I feel like it lol

Which is most often around a major tournament if feels like

 

[ChivalRuse]

I like using WD in place d-tilt out of a dash dance. It is a similar tactic to doing a shield stop fair or a pivot fair.

 

[FE_Hector]

I like using WD in place d-tilt out of a dash dance. It is a similar tactic to doing a shield stop fair or a pivot fair.

Only because I've practiced it so much, I much prefer spacing a WD left or right out of WD into dtilt. Watching PPMD gave me a lot of ideas, and while my super tight DDs into stuff like that needs practice, it's getting better.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Yea, obviously you WD toward or away from the opponent if the positioning calls for it. But there are times when you want the micro-positioning that WD in place out of a dash gives you.

 

[FE_Hector]

Yea, obviously you WD toward or away from the opponent if the positioning calls for it. But there are times when you want the micro-positioning that WD in place out of a dash gives you.

Oh I just adjust my DD positioning when I want to. I'm personally against WD in place because it feels so laggy.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I'd rather be stuck in 14 frames of WD dead inputs than too far to punish something in neutral. It's basically a poor man's pivot d-tilt. It's not optimal, but it's still good if used in the right context.

 

[FE_Hector]

I'd rather be stuck in 14 frames of WD dead inputs than too far to punish something in neutral. It's basically a poor man's pivot d-tilt. It's not optimal, but it's still good if used in the right context.

To each his own, I suppose. I just really hate feeling laggy with my character, so I've just spent time working on spacing

 

[kalamazhu]

How does marth tech chase spacies on platforms and cover all of the options? A lot of the time, especiall when the spacie is near the middle of the platform, my sh uair sour spots and the combo ends.

 

[FE_Hector]

How does marth tech chase spacies on platforms and cover all of the options? A lot of the time, especiall when the spacie is near the middle of the platform, my sh uair sour spots and the combo ends.

I'm not COMPLETELY sure, but I would bet that the simplest way is to react to their tech. If you're not playing in DL, it might be advantageous to WD over to where they're rolling and meet them with a utilt instead of a uair.

 

[Dr Peepee]

How does marth tech chase spacies on platforms and cover all of the options? A lot of the time, especiall when the spacie is near the middle of the platform, my sh uair sour spots and the combo ends.

info should be in kadano's thread with %s and such. if the percent is high enough, you can FF uair tech in place/no tech and drift uair tech roll.

 

[FlamingForce]

So I have a problem with dashing backwards, I notice that when I CG the spacies and do uthrow > utilt and send them flying behind me, I often have trouble chasing after them because of how slow my turnaround into a dash is, I've noticed that unless I really SMACK the control stick in the desired direction Marth goes through an annoying and lengthy turnaround animation before he breaks into a dash, is this a controller issue or is it part of Marth play to be aware of the need to time the turnaround after utilt as well as really smash the stick?

 

[Stride]

So I have a problem with dashing backwards, I notice that when I CG the spacies and do uthrow > utilt and send them flying behind me, I often have trouble chasing after them because of how slow my turnaround into a dash is, I've noticed that unless I really SMACK the control stick in the desired direction Marth goes through an annoying and lengthy turnaround animation before he breaks into a dash, is this a controller issue or is it part of Marth play to be aware of the need to time the turnaround after utilt as well as really smash the stick?

To dash backwards from a stand, you have to move the control stick into the dash zone within 1 frame; otherwise you will do the slow turn (a tilt turn as opposed to a smash turn). Dashing forwards is more lenient (though I forget exactly how). Backwards dashes from a stand also only buffer for 1 frame (out of up throw lag, etc.) as opposed to the 2 frames that forwards dashes buffer.

If your controller is really bad then it could be a problem, but it's likely that most of the issue is coming from you. The input itself shouldn't be difficult, so long as you're aware of when you have to do it.

 

[tauKhan]

@ FlamingForce I fear that it might be a controller issue. My brother has a controller which with it's almost impossible to smash turn dash back from stand. I have run into a few other controllers on which the control stick doesn't always register full input immediately, which results in slow tilt turn dash. Hax also reported having this issue lately, and I heard Armada was searching for new controller at evo because he couldn't dash back reliably with the old one anymore.

On the other hand, you really do need to do a very swift input to smash turn from Wait , so it might be just issue with your technique.

 

[FlamingForce]

It's not like I'm unable to do it, I just noticed that I have to be particularly mindful to time it right and to give it a significant smack to pull it off, I don't think it's a controller issue.

 

[tauKhan]

How does marth tech chase spacies on platforms and cover all of the options? A lot of the time, especiall when the spacie is near the middle of the platform, my sh uair sour spots and the combo ends.

Adding to what pp said, Fox can ASDI down cc uair until 20%, and tech until 58%.

Also be warned, if the fox techs near an edge, you don't get guaranteed follow up for the uair, and you can even get punished for uairing him. I'm still waiting for others to pick up this trick though.

In most cases I think there isn't any guaranteed big punish on platform tech chases.

 

[ChivalRuse]

@ kalamazhu Yeah pretty much as PP said, you have to drift in your short hop and tip the uair, sometimes fast falling as necessary depending on where Fox techs. Think of Marth's uair sweetspot hitbox as a semi-circle shaped parabola on a graph. Using this image as a guide, there are three main ways to land a tippered uair: tip with the apex of the sword (not common in platform tech chase scenarios), with the front lower hitbox (where the parabolic curve would be lowest on the y-axis) and the back of the lower hitbox (where the curve dips down again).

 

[Espi]

@ Dr Peepee , you have probably answered this before, but what was your reasoning in going PS instead of Yoshis vs Hbox when you went Marth?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I wanted to be able to DD vs him since I prefer to take advantage of Marth's mobility advantage over his range one usually.

 

[Janky_CNF]

@ Dr Peepee Hey PP! First off, big fan! I have a few questions to ask you and I hope you haven't already answered them in this thread.

Number 1 : What's your opinion on Dual Maining? Do you see it as beneficial or detrimental to one's game if they strive to be a top player? More specifically, if they use the characters to get by shortcomings. ( Example : Me, I use Marth to handle Fox and others but use Sheik to primarily deal with Falco everywhere but PS and FD)

Number 2 : How does one practice Smash DI'ing when they have no one to practice against? Do you just practice the motion, or do you try and play against CPU's and deal with their rather..dumb behavior? (Dthrow--> shine? C'moooonnn)

Number 3 : If someone is trying to beat someone in the mental game, is there any general signs of that person "breaking" the other into doing something dumb? Or, what do you do in situations where you notice that you are the one getting outplayed in the mindgame department and you still have time to correct your mistakes if you can pass this new obstacle?

 

[Dr Peepee]

@ Dr Peepee Hey PP! First off, big fan! I have a few questions to ask you and I hope you haven't already answered them in this thread.

Number 1 : What's your opinion on Dual Maining? Do you see it as beneficial or detrimental to one's game if they strive to be a top player? More specifically, if they use the characters to get by shortcomings. ( Example : Me, I use Marth to handle Fox and others but use Sheik to primarily deal with Falco everywhere but PS and FD)

Number 2 : How does one practice Smash DI'ing when they have no one to practice against? Do you just practice the motion, or do you try and play against CPU's and deal with their rather..dumb behavior? (Dthrow--> shine? C'moooonnn)

Number 3 : If someone is trying to beat someone in the mental game, is there any general signs of that person "breaking" the other into doing something dumb? Or, what do you do in situations where you notice that you are the one getting outplayed in the mindgame department and you still have time to correct your mistakes if you can pass this new obstacle?

Hi!

1. I think dual maining isn't good until top level, and at that point I'm unsure about it.

2. Well yeah you'll have to practice the instinct of it when you get into a CPU's range and get hit. You can also practice if you run into a motion sensor bomb I suppose. It would also help to watch matches online and see when you should be SDI'ing and what you think it would do. If you work at the practice enough, especially through your own tourney experience and videos you can probably figure plenty out.

3. Signs are pretty obvious because there is generally more erratic behavior. If you are the one who is getting outplayed then it helps to take some time to clear your head before continuing.

 

[vexoskeleton]

Hi!

1. I think dual maining isn't good until top level, and at that point I'm unsure about it.

Why are you unsure about dual maining at a top level? is it because the sudden change in spacing or game play?

 

[Dr Peepee]

You get to cover character/stage combinations you do not prefer, but you lose out on fully understanding one character since time will be spent working on keeping both proficient.

 

[FE_Hector]

@ Dr Peepee I was recently rewatching your Apex 2015 sets (for like the 5th time lol), and noticed something rather interesting. Because of how he works, Falco is a very in-your-face type character, preferring to spend as much time right up and at the opponent as possible. In my opinion, Marth is a very well-balanced character in terms of offense and defense, yet your Marth is heavily offensive. The main situation I can think of is about anytime you go Marth vs. Leffen or Armada. You'll do super tight Marth DDs right in front of them because Marth's presence is a huge threat. However, you rarely go offensive in this situation. You DD just outside of their range and pivot grab when they try to attack you, and then start the combo. I suppose what I'm asking is did you pick up the very in-your-face type Marth from using Falco so much, or is that simply how you think Marth is the most effective?

I suppose the best way I could describe this is a halfway defensive in-your-face type Marth that I really haven't seen anybody else use before.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah that's a lot of what I do. Perhaps it's related to Falco, or maybe I would have played like that anyway. Hard to say.

 

[kalamazhu]

what characters can you hit their DJ sweet spot with marth dtilt?

 

[Kakaru]

Hello Dr PP.... Are you actually wanted terrorist, Jehad Serwan Mostafa?

The resemblance is... alarming.

 

[Janky_CNF]

Hello Dr PP.... Are you actually wanted terrorist, Jehad Serwan Mostafa?

The resemblance is... alarming.

LOLOLOLOLOLOL STACK IT UP JUST GOT A WHOLE NEW MEANING

 

[Dr Peepee]

thats not even close LOL

 

[Brave Little DeCoste'R]

@ FlamingForce the dash away thing where you do the turn around animation is such a pain but i fixed it with just consciously forcing myself to smack the stick. It's weird but after a while you do it less.

@ FE_Hector WD in place is hella good in a lot of situations.

 

[FE_Hector]

@ Brave Little DeCoste'R Can we agree to disagree?

 

[ChivalRuse]

Chain grabbing spacies who DI behind is pretty tricky. I feel like the key is to know the earliest frames when you can move/turnaround.

 

[Brave Little DeCoste'R]

yeah, I mean I can't force you to use it lol

 

[FE_Hector]

Chain grabbing spacies who DI behind is pretty tricky. I feel like the key is to know the earliest frames when you can move/turnaround.

Agreed. Just throwing out a random opinion?

 

[tonic]

Hello Dr PP.... Are you actually wanted terrorist, Jehad Serwan Mostafa?

The resemblance is... alarming.

Wow... haven't had a ****post in smashboards melee forums in forever. Guess this means the community's growing

 

[FE_Hector]

thats not even close LOL

You lie lol