Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Janky_CNF]

thats not even close LOL

Kevin we all know it's you

 

[ShadowKing]

Best roll options?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

You have back roll and forward roll along with tech roll forward and tech roll backward.

 

[Kakaru]

Wow... haven't had a ****post in smashboards melee forums in forever. Guess this means the community's growing

Don't call it a comeback
I been here for years

 

[FE_Hector]

Best roll options?

I say Techroll or don't roll at all most of the time. Dashing out of the way is gonna handle most situations. I'm working on eliminating my rolls

 

[ChivalRuse]

Hector, I was responding to @FlamingForce.

 

[ShadowKing]

You have back roll and forward roll along with tech roll forward and tech roll backward.

i know

 

[Rachman]

Opinion on implementing lots of dashwavedashes/wavesurfing/whatever you wanna call it into your DD? Seems like it allows you to threaten dtilt much more often/make your dd more erratic from the perspective of your opponent (can vary more in distance traveled and speed etc)/dull the visual cues people usually have from a standard dash dance as well as some other things. However, it does put you in a considerable (14-15 frames iirc) of lag and that's a substantial amount to consistently put yourself in vs a competent Fox or something. Thoughts? I feel like as long as you aren't wavedashing INTO threat range of the opponent it could be very usable but I'm searching for outside opinions.

 

[FE_Hector]

Opinion on implementing lots of dashwavedashes/wavesurfing/whatever you wanna call it into your DD? Seems like it allows you to threaten dtilt much more often/make your dd more erratic from the perspective of your opponent (can vary more in distance traveled and speed etc)/dull the visual cues people usually have from a standard dash dance as well as some other things. However, it does put you in a considerable (14-15 frames iirc) of lag and that's a substantial amount to consistently put yourself in vs a competent Fox or something. Thoughts? I feel like as long as you aren't wavedashing INTO threat range of the opponent it could be very usable but I'm searching for outside opinions.

Personally, I only implement WDs into my DD if I'm intentionally aiming to dtilt, force a whiff, or if I know I've entered the run animation. Your movement as Marth should be fluid, and I don't think that WDing all over the place is a very good way to do that. Use it only when necessary, but be sure that you can WD consistently when you most need it.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Opinion on implementing lots of dashwavedashes/wavesurfing/whatever you wanna call it into your DD? Seems like it allows you to threaten dtilt much more often/make your dd more erratic from the perspective of your opponent (can vary more in distance traveled and speed etc)/dull the visual cues people usually have from a standard dash dance as well as some other things. However, it does put you in a considerable (14-15 frames iirc) of lag and that's a substantial amount to consistently put yourself in vs a competent Fox or something. Thoughts? I feel like as long as you aren't wavedashing INTO threat range of the opponent it could be very usable but I'm searching for outside opinions.

Yeah the lag is a big deal. Also you don't always want to give up stage or do too many inputs because you won't be able to focus on your opponent as easily. If you practice it well then it isn't bad to have as a pretty regular option though.

 

[Kaoak]

I've been having trouble with Foxes that nair into my dash dance and whiff the nair, but instantly jab so I can't land the grab. How should I change my dash dance grab game so that I don't get jabbed?

 

[FE_Hector]

I've been having trouble with Foxes that nair into my dash dance and whiff the nair, but instantly jab so I can't land the grab. How should I change my dash dance grab game so that I don't get jabbed?

Not 100% sure, but I'd say pivot grab.

 

[-ACE-]

start cc grabbing that jab. He won't just randomly jab you anymore

 

[FE_Hector]

start cc grabbing that jab. He won't just randomly jab you anymore

My biggest worry with that is that you cant crouch out of a DD unless you know it's gonna happen and WD, which is why I said pivot grab. Marth can grab Sheik out of her fair if he JC or pivot grabs, so it should work.

 

[-ACE-]

True, things change when he does it so much that you KNOW it's coming also. Just gotta hit down and in just before the jab. Even if you don't get the couch ASDI grabs are the ****

 

[FE_Hector]

You've got a good point there. Alternately, you could mess with his L-Cancel timing by actually running into the nair and shielding it. When it bounces off your shield, you should be able to grab him. (Not entirely sure)

 

[Rachman]

Wouldn't recommend relying on that. Something similar is when you ARE going to be hit in shield no matter what, angle it up Shield DI is also very useful for turning normally very disadvantageous situations into good ones

 

[lokt]

Opinion on implementing lots of dashwavedashes/wavesurfing/whatever you wanna call it into your DD? Seems like it allows you to threaten dtilt much more often/make your dd more erratic from the perspective of your opponent (can vary more in distance traveled and speed etc)/dull the visual cues people usually have from a standard dash dance as well as some other things. However, it does put you in a considerable (14-15 frames iirc) of lag and that's a substantial amount to consistently put yourself in vs a competent Fox or something. Thoughts? I feel like as long as you aren't wavedashing INTO threat range of the opponent it could be very usable but I'm searching for outside opinions.

I used to dash wavedash a decent amount in my neutral game but recently I've tried to limit that after studying videos of some top players. It's been a solid improvement so far and I get a lot more whiff punishes and don't get hit by random moves. In the marth ditto for example I used to awkwardly punish nair with wavedash back dtilt but now I can land a grab into an actual punish 90% of the time my opponent does a bad aerial.

 

[tauKhan]

My biggest worry with that is that you cant crouch out of a DD unless you know it's gonna happen and WD, which is why I said pivot grab. Marth can grab Sheik out of her fair if he JC or pivot grabs, so it should work.

It doesn't matter unless you're at like 100+%. ASDI down is the important cc component that will get you most of the massive frame advantage anyway. You don't need to crouch unless you're getting knocked down or pushed too far away. If you're dashing towards your opponent you're very unlikely to be pushed out of your grab range by a jab.

You can just attempt the grab and hold down and mash a at the same time in case of jab or double jab.

@ Kaoak Though this is a solution to the jabs, you should still try to improve your dd and grab timings. You should be able to grab the fox out of the landing animation of the nair before he can act. It's not easy, since the lag is only 7 frames, but it's often possible if you dd evade the nair. If your opponent starts shining or spotdodging your grab instead of jabbing, the ASDI down grab won't work anymore.

 

[-ACE-]

Wouldn't recommend relying on that.

The cc/asdi grab? There is little that you can ALWAYS rely on, but it's a great tactic as a mixup. You have to consider the reward potential from a grab.

 

[tauKhan]

The cc/asdi grab? There is little that you can ALWAYS rely on, but it's a great tactic as a mixup. You have to consider the reward potential from a grab.

Doesn't even have to be a mixup. In many cases, like this one, you can just option select ASDI down grab to cover you if you fail in what you try to do first.

 

[RittJumper]

hello all I played on stream at a local tournament yesterday. If anyone here can do a critique on my marth I would appreciate it. Thanks.

Here's about 20 minutes of me playing friendlies http://www.twitch.tv/bardull/b/681431791
tournament set starting at 4:30ish http://www.twitch.tv/bardull/b/681434799

 

[FE_Hector]

@ RittJumper You might want to post that in the Marth Video Critique Thread, where it will get a lot more attention.

@ Dr Peepee Kinda random, but why do you like going to Pokemon Stadium so much? Just a stage you enjoy, or is there some deeper reason?

 

[Jonas]

I've been having trouble with Foxes that nair into my dash dance and whiff the nair, but instantly jab so I can't land the grab. How should I change my dash dance grab game so that I don't get jabbed?

Pivot grab works well here because he extends his hitbox when he jabs so you just grab his hand. You can also just nair him.

 

[Dr Peepee]

@ Dr Peepee Kinda random, but why do you like going to Pokemon Stadium so much? Just a stage you enjoy, or is there some deeper reason?

It's longer then FD and it has little platforms that can make combos easier if I'm screwing up the CG. Really I should be picking FD over it and I will be when it's time.

 

[Rachman]

The cc/asdi grab? There is little that you can ALWAYS rely on, but it's a great tactic as a mixup. You have to consider the reward potential from a grab.

Was referring to running into a Nair and shielding it then shield grabbing. Asdi down grab is super duper underrated imo or at the very least underused

 

[Dr Peepee]

I really should abuse more hold down into grab. I've been slack about developing setups for it but I have a suspicion that the ability to abuse holding down is related to zoning ability since you can roughly know when people will hit you when considering attack lag and it's less certain with movement sometimes.

 

[FE_Hector]

I really should abuse more hold down into grab. I've been slack about developing setups for it but I have a suspicion that the ability to abuse holding down is related to zoning ability since you can roughly know when people will hit you when considering attack lag and it's less certain with movement sometimes.

On the topic of zoning/getting hit, have you figured out a plan for stopping Armadas dash attack at the back end of your DD range? He got some mileage off of a combo that started that way at EVO.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Well it's a mixup between doing that or Dtilt, but there are a few solutions. I can attack him as he moves forward, I can shield/hold down, I can approach well in tourney for once, I can outspace dash attack with Fair/Nair/Dtilt.

 

[FE_Hector]

Alright. One kinda funny idea I had for if he started abusing it was running through him where the hitbox isn't active. I'm not SURE if it would work, but it would be amusing at the very least.

 

[AirFair]

wouldn't that be more reactive? If he just ran toward him preemptively, expecting a dash attack, Armada could just react to the dash forward, which would lead to a bunch of different possibilities depending on how he reacts, because that could also end up badly for Marth.

Also, I am very surprised I haven't used this thread till now. Better late than never :/

huge fan pp

 

[Dr Peepee]

wouldn't that be more reactive? If he just ran toward him preemptively, expecting a dash attack, Armada could just react to the dash forward, which would lead to a bunch of different possibilities depending on how he reacts, because that could also end up badly for Marth.

Also, I am very surprised I haven't used this thread till now. Better late than never :/

huge fan pp

this is true, but in his dash forward he typically goes a long way since he must react to me dashing away to dash attack. I can meet him as he comes forward and begins to observe, and there are other conditions that can be arranged to make my own dash forward stronger as well. Reaction and prediction go together, and my strategy is not really passive or reliant on him making that choice in a vacuum since his choices will also depend on what I do.

 

[AirFair]

Could you explain some of those conditions?

I've gathered that dashes do conditioning of their own just by how long or short you want to make them, and I just want to understand the type of conditions you might want to try.

 

[Dr Peepee]

the simplest part of the explanation is to create strong threats on my dash in like the use of fair/grab/dtilt so those moves are respected. then if i dash forward those threats are "attached" to the dash and I can threaten for "free" in a way.

 

[FE_Hector]

the simplest part of the explanation is to create strong threats on my dash in like the use of fair/grab/dtilt so those moves are respected. then if i dash forward those threats are "attached" to the dash and I can threaten for "free" in a way.

tl;dr Make them respect the DD. It puts passive pressure on the Fox to act.

 

[Wind]

I think I understand theory in threatening the dash dance, similar to free blockstring pressure in 2D fighters I suppose. I'm picking up Marth as a main right now because he fits my playstyle, and my movement is fine, but I think it's too empty, as I can't make opponents respect my space. Particularly, against Fox, all I have really been doing are outspacing them and grabbing them with my dash dance, but I don't think I'm particularly effective at it. I might use a SH fair as an anti air, or downtilt to stuff a running shine but the speed makes it hard sometime. In general, neutral vs Fox seems to be a game of RPS to my understanding. I don't think I threaten my moves enough and I don't get to push forward and gain my stage control as well as I would like.

For example, way back in the day when I was significantly worse of a player and also played fox, I would play ZoSo and be pushed across the stage extremely quickly just by how he properly responded to my approach options, and then I would get destroyed in the corner.

The question is, how do I push theory into formidable application, and how does one go about practicing this solo besides something like shadowboxing?

 

[ChivalRuse]

If we knew the answer to that last question, we would all be winning tournaments

Honestly, though, I think it just boils down to immersing yourself in the game. Thinking about it a lot, watching good players, practicing tech skill regularly, and learning from your mistakes.

 

[Wind]

I don't think it's that hard to put it into application slowly by thinking about the game. I think the only real difference between people who understand theory and top players are effort, dedication, and ability to focus on the game even in the most stressful of situations (these things are really hard). Regardless, at least the first 2 are things that are very easily under my control, and I'm hoping to at least be able to put things into practice in friendlies before anything else.

 

[FE_Hector]

I think I understand theory in threatening the dash dance, similar to free blockstring pressure in 2D fighters I suppose. I'm picking up Marth as a main right now because he fits my playstyle, and my movement is fine, but I think it's too empty, as I can't make opponents respect my space. Particularly, against Fox, all I have really been doing are outspacing them and grabbing them with my dash dance, but I don't think I'm particularly effective at it. I might use a SH fair as an anti air, or downtilt to stuff a running shine but the speed makes it hard sometime. In general, neutral vs Fox seems to be a game of RPS to my understanding. I don't think I threaten my moves enough and I don't get to push forward and gain my stage control as well as I would like.

For example, way back in the day when I was significantly worse of a player and also played fox, I would play ZoSo and be pushed across the stage extremely quickly just by how he properly responded to my approach options, and then I would get destroyed in the corner.

The question is, how do I push theory into formidable application, and how does one go about practicing this solo besides something like shadowboxing?

That's something I'm struggling with right now, and something that is probably the #1 killer of potentially good melee players. I honestly think we've got to play with the intention of learning and implementing techniques we know will help us in the long run. Sounds ridiculously cocky coming from a teenager in Raleigh who has his second ever tourney coming up soon, but that's honestly what I think.

 

[AirFair]

I don't think it's that hard to put it into application slowly by thinking about the game. I think the only real difference between people who understand theory and top players are effort, dedication, and ability to focus on the game even in the most stressful of situations (these things are really hard). Regardless, at least the first 2 are things that are very easily under my control, and I'm hoping to at least be able to put things into practice in friendlies before anything else.

It takes a lot of experience/effort to keep emotion out of play. When I play, I can think of all the stuff that I talk about here, and the way I can move, but since I'm still learning and processing it, and I'm relatively a newcomer (Tournaments for 10 months) It can get lost in the heat of a match. Which is why when I do get the chance to play at all against people, I believe it's best to try and use what you know then to learn more.

Not to say it's impossible, it's just that I don't get the chance to test my skills since I'm still in HS trying to catch tournaments lol