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Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

FE_Hector

Smash Lord
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May 26, 2015
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1. I am not sure on what to do with lasers. The only thing I can do is to shield but it's terrible. I heard that dashing and D-tilting works but i attempted this and I did a D-Smash by accident.
Honestly, I'd recommend taking them to an area where you can abuse platforms. Stay up in their faces and don't LET them laser you. Obviously this can't happen all the time, so WD OoS is another really good option. DD -> dtilt doesn't quite work. You're gonna have to have a WD in the middle, so think about spacing there. Also, if you were dsmashing, just be sure you're done run canceling before trying to poke.

2. I struggled alot when I was rushed in and comboed very badly. The only thing I could really do was really to try my best to attack but I was extremely defenceless.
What are the best options for both of my problems? Thank you! :):pichumelee:
Work on your DI, especially mixups, for this one. If you see your opponent rushing you, you need to know your reactions. If you think they'll grab, grab before them as yours outranges. If they're gonna attack, you could DD out of the way and surprise poke them, then just do whatever you feel like.

I don't have too much MU-specific information, but hopefully that'll help.
 

Siccamende

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So, this might be a kind of a weird question. But is there a way to work on your neutral game (as Marth) by yourself? I'm not sure if Shadow boxing could be that big of a help, because I've tired it and I haven't really come to any type of improvement. Maybe I'm seeing it in the wrong way, I'm not sure. Let me know how I should look at this.
Also, if there is another way to practice, is it match up specific? Thanks.
 

FE_Hector

Smash Lord
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Raleigh, NC
So, this might be a kind of a weird question. But is there a way to work on your neutral game (as Marth) by yourself? I'm not sure if Shadow boxing could be that big of a help, because I've tired it and I haven't really come to any type of improvement. Maybe I'm seeing it in the wrong way, I'm not sure. Let me know how I should look at this.
Also, if there is another way to practice, is it match up specific? Thanks.
As he's the best (Marth) in the world, I largely practice emulating PPMD-like movement. The biggest thing I recommend is being able to go from any length of DD to any other length. If you've watched his Marth much, he tends to to super tight DDs right in his opponents face, then (once they go offensive) go to the end of the DD range and pivot grab because Marth's just that good. That's another thing I'd really recommend practicing, pivot grabs. In some set during EVO (I can't remember cuz I was too hyped), Toph said that he thought that PPMD had pulled off the sickest pivot grab he'd ever seen. Be able to pivot grab chaingrab at any DD length. That's something I'm working on.
 
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Jayrodd

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 3, 2015
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9
Location
Detroit
So I think I have my swoosh swoosh down, but my Kreygasm game is really lacking lately. Just feels like in the neutral i'm doing the right things, movement looking crispy, but i can never land the kill, what do?
 

BlueX

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What should i do in a match up against Link? and avoid his grab?
 
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Siccamende

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I've recently been having the typical Marth habit where I F-Smash too much in the neutral. I feel helpless if I don't do sometimes (especially against high% spaces and sheik) and I don't know what I could do that wouldn't be as a commitment. What can I do to get out of this habit.
 

BlueX

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I've recently been having the typical Marth habit where I F-Smash too much in the neutral. I feel helpless if I don't do sometimes (especially against high% spaces and sheik) and I don't know what I could do that wouldn't be as a commitment. What can I do to get out of this habit.
I am a Marth newbie so I will try my best but maybe you try to use your D-tilt more for spacing and poking instead of F-Smash. The best time to use F-Smash is for edgeguarding and mind games. F-Air is the best option. It must faster.

This video explains why F-Smash is bad. (Go to 3:21)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkI8krzFrro
 
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FE_Hector

Smash Lord
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I've recently been having the typical Marth habit where I F-Smash too much in the neutral. I feel helpless if I don't do sometimes (especially against high% spaces and sheik) and I don't know what I could do that wouldn't be as a commitment. What can I do to get out of this habit.
SH/SHFFL aerials, grabs, and tilts are your best options. There are a few threads about moving away from Fsmashes, but I'd suggest changing your mindset a little bit. Instead of going for a lot of knockback and damage, I think Marth's focus should be on combos and edgeguards. Who cares what % your opponent is at if you can't KO them? Think about edgeguards and putting yourself into those situations more. It should help. Besides that, watch pro Marth play. PPMD from Apex 2015, M2K, and PewPewU are all excellent examples of modern Marth's. You can watch some Ken stuff for a few ideas, but a lot of his play is flawed and outdated.
 

BlueX

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What can wavedash and dashdance used for Marth? Also I hope I don't annoy anyone if I ask this again but what's the best advice for a Link match up?
 

Stride

Smash Ace
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Feb 22, 2014
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North-west England (near Manchester/Liverpool)
when does back throw > dolphin slash work against fox?
When they DI in at high percentages (around 130%, probably significantly earlier but the execution window is pretty tight then). It doesn't work on no DI or on DI away; for that reason you might want to pummel or delay before you go for back throw in order to make sure they don't miss the DI, since it releases very fast (Fox's DI is read on frame 6 of the throw, so he has to be actually holding it on frame 5).

Let me get back to you with some more precise percentages.
 
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FE_Hector

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What can wavedash and dashdance used for Marth? Also I hope I don't annoy anyone if I ask this again but what's the best advice for a Link match up?
I use WD at lot to fool my opponent. For example, they may try to beat out a JC grab if they think it's coming, so I'll WD back to avoid their attack and then grab. You can also use it out of DD in order to dtilt more quickly. I use
DD a lot when baiting out an opponent and when I want to disguise my intentions (all the time). Again, watch the pros. PPMD has insanely good wavedash and dash dance application.
 

Stride

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when does back throw > dolphin slash work against fox?
When they DI in at high percentages (around 130%, probably significantly earlier but the execution window is pretty tight then). It doesn't work on no DI or on DI away; for that reason you might want to pummel or delay before you go for back throw in order to make sure they don't miss the DI, since it releases very fast (Fox's DI is read on frame 6 of the throw, so he has to be actually holding it on frame 5).

Let me get back to you with some more precise percentages.
The earliest that Marth can hit with a Dolphin slash is frame 6 of his actionability after the throw: smash turn for 1 frame, then Dolphin Slash on the next frame (hitbubbles are out on frame 5 of the move). If you enter dash (which is what will happen if you keep holding the control stick backwards in the dash zone after the first frame of the smash turn), then you lose at least 1 frame; this is because you have to enter jumpsquat for at least 1 frame before Dolphin Slashing, since it is not possible to up-B immediately out of a dash.

Until approximately 170-180%, Fox can't act before he hits the ground. At that damage level, grounded Dolphin Slash won't connect with the sweetspot unless you dash after a delay (it will whiff if you smash turn->Dolphin Slash, and sourspot if you dash immediately), and you can simply forward smash instead. I didn't test aerial Dolphin Slash. Forward smash is active on frame 10, though it may only connect later at higher percentages because it doesn't reach in front of Marth until frame 11 (didn't test that either).

There are 2 different hitstun animations that Fox (and presumably all other characters) can be put in from this throw: "DamageFlyN" and "DamageFlyRoll". I don't know how the animation is chosen; even with the same percentages and input timings it still varies, seemingly randomly. Fox hits the ground several frames earlier when in DamageFlyN than in DamageFlyRoll (3 frames of difference somewhere around 110%; I didn't check properly). DamageFlyN is the more common animation (and the worst-case scenario from the perspective of the Marth), but DamageFlyRoll still happens a significant amount of the time.

Note that the values in the table below are for PAL Fox and DamageFlyN only, with 0° DI (straight in front). PAL/NTSC will make very little (if any) difference since both Foxes are released from the throw on the same frame. If the throw hitstun animation is DamageFlyRoll, then you will have a significantly larger window for the Dolphin Slash (affording you additional leniency and the ability to start Dolphin slashing at lower damage levels). 45° DI (up and in front) makes Fox get launched slightly higher and closer than 0° DI (straight in front) does, but the effect is small and disadvantageous for the Fox; as far as I tested, at 100-120% it increases the amount of time the Fox is airborne for by 1 frame compared to 0° DI (straight in front).

For damages over 125%, I only tested in multiples of 5 (this means that the 123-125 range may actually be as large as 123-129).

Fox damage|Frames Fox is airborne while Marth is actionable
n<97|n<6 (no Dolphin Slash possible while the opponent is airborne)
97-101|6 (earliest smash turn->immediate Dolphin Slash)
102-107|7
108-113|8 (earliest smash turn->immediate jumpsquat->immediate Dolphin Slash)
114-117|9
118-122|10 (earliest forward smash)
123-125|11
130|12
135|13
140|14
145|15
150|16
155|17
160|18
165|19
170|21
175|22
 
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kalamazhu

Smash Journeyman
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Mar 26, 2008
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Hey guys. What is the best way to combo sheik out of an up throw at all percents? I am having trouble finding this information. Any help would be appreciated!
 

Stride

Smash Ace
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Hey guys. What is the best way to combo sheik out of an up throw at all percents? I am having trouble finding this information. Any help would be appreciated!
Have you checked Kadano's Perfect Math Class already? http://smashboards.com/threads/kadano’s-perfect-marth-class—advanced-frame-data-application.337035/page-8#post-16084304

General rules (which you probably know already):
• Tech chase with forward or down throw until up throw gives guaranteed combos.
• On neutral DI, up tilt or up aerial.
• On horizontal DI, forward aerial at mid damages when it'll combo and up tilt otherwise.
• At high percentages when nothing is guaranteed, get below them and react. You could also just forward or down throw instead of up throwing.
• Depending on the player, you can bank on the Sheik not jumping out of up throw and go for up tilt or up aerial when it's not guaranteed (up tilt at <20%, for example), or you can wait for/bait the jump and hit them after it.
 
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Nicholas1024

Smash Lord
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Mar 14, 2009
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1,075
Can Marth actually get to the ledge with his up-B if his opponent is going for a lightshield edgeguard? I've been trying to get around that for a while, but unless I up-B way early and fall to the ledge (which is easily reacted to), I haven't been able to sneak past it.
 

kalamazhu

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DCDS room 104
Thanks for the response!

I am also having trouble edgeguarding sheik. I usually grab the ledge and then they up b and i use my neutral get up. When they go on a platform i utilt or fsmash and when they go farther away i tipper fsmash them. but when they land closer, i don't really don't know what to do. I usually grab and try to combo them or throw them off, but i think there could be something better. I've tried pivot fsmash to send them back off, but that seems kind of slow and inconsistent. I've thought of dash forward turn reverse up-b. Does that work?
 

FE_Hector

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Thanks for the response!

I am also having trouble edgeguarding sheik. I usually grab the ledge and then they up b and i use my neutral get up. When they go on a platform i utilt or fsmash and when they go farther away i tipper fsmash them. but when they land closer, i don't really don't know what to do. I usually grab and try to combo them or throw them off, but i think there could be something better. I've tried pivot fsmash to send them back off, but that seems kind of slow and inconsistent. I've thought of dash forward turn reverse up-b. Does that work?
It's super tough when they land close. I've been experimenting a bit, and I think pulling yourself up just a little bit early and positioning in the split second you have may work.
 

Stride

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Thanks for the response!

I am also having trouble edgeguarding sheik. I usually grab the ledge and then they up b and i use my neutral get up. When they go on a platform i utilt or fsmash and when they go farther away i tipper fsmash them. but when they land closer, i don't really don't know what to do. I usually grab and try to combo them or throw them off, but i think there could be something better. I've tried pivot fsmash to send them back off, but that seems kind of slow and inconsistent. I've thought of dash forward turn reverse up-b. Does that work?
Assuming you want to cover up-B to ledge as well, I think getting on the other side of them and up-Bing is rarely fast enough unless they land really close to the ledge, and then the window is generally tight (it depends on a lot of factors so it's hard to be specific). If they have high enough damage, then you can just up-B them from the outside and repeat the edgeguard on the other side of the stage, though then you have to take into account how long it takes to recover from the up-B before you can continue the edgeguard (where forward smash might be better despite not sending as far).

If you can get up tilt (either tipper when it will kill or non-tipper when it sends them far away enough to kill or repeat the edgeguard) then that's a good alternative to down throw if it's going to leave them too close to the stage.
 
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FE_Hector

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I've been having a bit of trouble trying to chaingrab Sheik. This might be a very small error on my part, but after a few grabs (I think he was right around 20 because I'd already gotten a poke), my bro very deftly interrupted my chaingrab. He DId around me, so I just turned and thought nothing of it, ready to regrab... when I ate a bair to the face. After this, I wasn't able to get any regrabs, just more bairs... Any ideas?
 

Stride

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I've been having a bit of trouble trying to chaingrab Sheik. This might be a very small error on my part, but after a few grabs (I think he was right around 20 because I'd already gotten a poke), my bro very deftly interrupted my chaingrab. He DId around me, so I just turned and thought nothing of it, ready to regrab... when I ate a bair to the face. After this, I wasn't able to get any regrabs, just more bairs... Any ideas?
You can't chaingrab Sheik.

If you're referring to the up throw chaingrab, then that can easily be escaped with a jump or aerial even at 0%. If you're referring to the forward throw chaingrab, then that never works on any character if they DI down and away (so far as I'm aware; either way it doesn't work on Sheik if she DIs correctly).
 
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FE_Hector

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I was talking about the uthrow chaingrab. I'd noticed he could jump out of it, but he recently stopped, so I thought it might be worth a try. Who can you uthrow chaingrab, then?
 

DeadPigeon

Smash Apprentice
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Jun 22, 2015
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I was talking about the uthrow chaingrab. I'd noticed he could jump out of it, but he recently stopped, so I thought it might be worth a try. Who can you uthrow chaingrab, then?
Fox and falco. Falcon is too fat to be chaingrabed, but there are a number of followups on upthrow depending on percent/di.
 

The Leaf

Smash Rookie
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Jan 27, 2015
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Can Marth actually get to the ledge with his up-B if his opponent is going for a lightshield edgeguard? I've been trying to get around that for a while, but unless I up-B way early and fall to the ledge (which is easily reacted to), I haven't been able to sneak past it.
Your best options to sneak past if you're close are to either Side B the light shield and airdodge on safely (so they fall to the ledge and you land on stage) or up B to a platform while hitting their shield so that they fall to the ledge. When going from beneath the ledge, you can't sneak under the light shield, but it is possible to get around it.

Something like this is your best bet for getting around it from below. https://youtu.be/phsu7eQVKlM?t=1m56s


Now I have a question of my own. I've recently had a lot of trouble with Fox and Falco and to a lesser extent Falcon. Problems that are very different than what I initially thought I'd encounter. I have NEVER had a problem competing in the neutral vs. any player or character, but now that I'm starting to make it into the later rounds of tournaments and face better players I'm struggling to find an answer to platform camping that seems so prevalent at the higher levels. I guess it's not fair to call it camping, but I have a problem at fighting players who constantly attack from a different plane from my own, such as going back and forth between the top and side platform furthest away from me. This problem isn't as bad on Yoshi's due to the lower platform, and it's non existent on FD and PS, but it's still something I need to address.

My question is, how do I deal with repeated wavelands on the top platform (like drop down DJ waveland back on the platform) without committing to give them an avenue of approach. Dash dancing under a side platform was my go to strategy, but there are times when that seems to fail, especially when the other player is dedicated to keeping away from me. Is there a way I can threaten the top platform without committing with a full hop Uair or guessing when they'll come down by using a SH nair/fair/uair and hoping they'll fall into it? If I guess wrong, they then drop down and punish my end lag, and if I full hop Uair, especially at low percents, it feels like it's always CC'd or Shielded > Shield Drop Bair/Dair.
 
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FE_Hector

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Your best options to sneak past if you're close are to either Side B the light shield and airdodge on safely (so they fall to the ledge and you land on stage) or up B to a platform while hitting their shield so that they fall to the ledge. When going from beneath the ledge, you can't sneak under the light shield, but it is possible to get around it.

Something like this is your best bet for getting around it from below. https://youtu.be/phsu7eQVKlM?t=1m56s


Now I have a question of my own. I've recently had a lot of trouble with Fox and Falco and to a lesser extent Falcon. Problems that are very different than what I initially thought I'd encounter. I have NEVER had a problem competing in the neutral vs. any player or character, but now that I'm starting to make it into the later rounds of tournaments and face better players I'm struggling to find an answer to platform camping that seems so prevalent at the higher levels. I guess it's not fair to call it camping, but I have a problem at fighting players who constantly attack from a different plane from my own, such as going back and forth between the top and side platform furthest away from me. This problem isn't as bad on Yoshi's due to the lower platform, and it's non existent on FD and PS, but it's still something I need to address.

My question is, how do I deal with repeated wavelands on the top platform (like drop down DJ waveland back on the platform) without committing to give them an avenue of approach. Dash dancing under a side platform was my go to strategy, but there are times when that seems to fail, especially when the other player is dedicated to keeping away from me. Is there a way I can threaten the top platform without committing with a full hop Uair or guessing when they'll come down by using a SH nair/fair/uair and hoping they'll fall into it? If I guess wrong, they then drop down and punish my end lag, and if I full hop Uair, especially at low percents, it feels like it's always CC'd or Shielded > Shield Drop Bair/Dair.
If they enjoy the lower platforms, I'd move over to the platform ASAP because Marth's presence threatens a utilt. If they enjoy the top platform... I don't have too much experience, but maybe try taking one of the lower platforms so you don't have to commit to a full hop. SH fading fair/nair may work.
 

FE_Hector

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I'm not entirely sure what you mean, but
1) You can't dtilt out of DD without a WD in between
2) Pick and choose: I think it's a good idea to either poke them to death or just edge hog them unless you have time to set up for the simple "Press R" edgeguard.
 

ChivalRuse

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For the edge game is it efficient to dtilt out of dash right on the edge then turn around drop and grab the edge (kinda like a pc drop)?
The fastest ways to grab the ledge out of a run are to SH bair and grab the ledge or wavedash toward the ledge (while facing it) then turn around and wavedash backwards, fast falling so you grab the ledge quicker.
 

BTmoney

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Thanks for the response!

I am also having trouble edgeguarding sheik. I usually grab the ledge and then they up b and i use my neutral get up. When they go on a platform i utilt or fsmash and when they go farther away i tipper fsmash them. but when they land closer, i don't really don't know what to do. I usually grab and try to combo them or throw them off, but i think there could be something better. I've tried pivot fsmash to send them back off, but that seems kind of slow and inconsistent. I've thought of dash forward turn reverse up-b. Does that work?
I think doing a dash->turnaround/normal up B is a really good and underutilized when you make her land. up B specifically beats the option where Sheik lands right in front of the ledge as you get up. That coaxes you to go for a non-tipper f smash or grab her or something because Marth has no good close range hits. up B is extremely good here.

If you can pivot f smash her on stage I'd do that (it's actually pretty easy to get the dash away->f smash in opposite direction pivot f smash. I use the analog stick and A for that. If you try it for 5 minutes you should be able to start getting them, I was 100% consistent before I got a new controller, it's wayyy easier than doing something like dashing and f smashing in the same direction)

Something to keep in mind too is that you can hit sheik with an up B on platforms (instead of like a nair or fair because you realize you can't f smash or utilt in time, obviously you don't wanna up B sheik at low percent).

I also think being preventative is very good vs. Sheik, kinda the same way you can go off stage from a wavedash or from the ledge and bair Marth while he's recovering. That type of edge guard works on sheik a lot of the time. It's just tricking learning the situations when you should and shouldn't do that. I think Moon and Dart especially are good at edge guarding Sheik so I'd check out all those Dart vs Kels sets.

These off stage follows ups are really good by PP too
https://youtu.be/kREm4Bsw58M?t=19m17s (that fair)
https://youtu.be/kREm4Bsw58M?t=19m31s (that neutral B, he missed but I believe fair would have worked again)

A pure mixup you can do is go for a DI trap and f throw or dthrow when they expect you to throw them back off stage and I think it combos into f smash at high percent (if you get the right DI). Don't know the %s exactly I just know it works in my experience.

Those are all small optimizations and it doesn't really answer the big question but I think doing neutral get up and "flow charting" your punishes make it a bit easier. A lot of the time though it's just going to come down to how well you can juggle sheik and win psuedo-neutral once you get your free hit off the edge guard. Edge guarding her is more like doing a long combo imo. It's kind of like winning and setting up 70-30 situations over and over again. You can hardly ever just kill her off 1 attempt.
 
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tonic

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Messages
51
Hey PP,

Curious to hear your thoughts on WD dtilt vs run cancel dtilt. WD dtilt is faster (starts frame 15) than runcancel dtilt (starts frame 19), can be spaced much better (with WD length being very variable whereas optimal runcancel length is relatively static), and can be combined with an initial dash to have just as long if not longer range than a runcancel dtilt, with the same amount of startup. WD dtilt can also be used any time, including directly out of a run, whereas runcancel requires the commitment of a run. It seems to me that runcancel dtilt is in most ways suboptimal, but I'm curious to know when you choose to use either one. I also noticed you practicing WD back -> WD forward dtilt; also interested in knowing when you would use this rather than dash back -> WD dtilt/runcancel dtilt.

Great stream yesterday, really inspiring. :)
 

FE_Hector

Smash Lord
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Raleigh, NC
Hey PP,

Curious to hear your thoughts on WD dtilt vs run cancel dtilt. WD dtilt is faster (starts frame 15) than runcancel dtilt (starts frame 19), can be spaced much better (with WD length being very variable whereas optimal runcancel length is relatively static), and can be combined with an initial dash to have just as long if not longer range than a runcancel dtilt, with the same amount of startup. WD dtilt can also be used any time, including directly out of a run, whereas runcancel requires the commitment of a run. It seems to me that runcancel dtilt is in most ways suboptimal, but I'm curious to know when you choose to use either one. I also noticed you practicing WD back -> WD forward dtilt; also interested in knowing when you would use this rather than dash back -> WD dtilt/runcancel dtilt.

Great stream yesterday, really inspiring. :)
I can't say for sure whether or not this still applies, but @ E Elyssa Xey Hexen said PPMD is on hiatus after tournaments and is active before.

Besides that, I honestly prefer to WD into dtilt all the time because of the immaculate spacing you get. Imo, choose that all the time provided you're confident in your WD ability
 

Dr Peepee

Ancient Light
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Hey PP,

Curious to hear your thoughts on WD dtilt vs run cancel dtilt. WD dtilt is faster (starts frame 15) than runcancel dtilt (starts frame 19), can be spaced much better (with WD length being very variable whereas optimal runcancel length is relatively static), and can be combined with an initial dash to have just as long if not longer range than a runcancel dtilt, with the same amount of startup. WD dtilt can also be used any time, including directly out of a run, whereas runcancel requires the commitment of a run. It seems to me that runcancel dtilt is in most ways suboptimal, but I'm curious to know when you choose to use either one. I also noticed you practicing WD back -> WD forward dtilt; also interested in knowing when you would use this rather than dash back -> WD dtilt/runcancel dtilt.

Great stream yesterday, really inspiring. :)
I like them both since you need to threaten with dash forward to make either effective. Also to help you keep track of things there is a difference in dash WD Dtilt and just WD Dtilt.

I like WD back into WD forward Dtilt especially in Marth dittos but also vs Sheik and occasionally vs Fox. You use it so the opponent is preparing a grounded response to your backward action and then you intercept them as they recognize that backward action. Of course, this loses to people using aerials or bigger attacks if they react to the WD back quickly by coming forward. They could also beat it by attacking after the Dtilt is out since whatever action I choose afterward will be important since I'll be in lag and closer to them. Still, it's a good technique since my play generally is about moving forward so the WD back is unexpected.
 
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