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FE_Hector

Smash Lord
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May 26, 2015
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Marth's Fsmash hits the ground on frame 12. It takes marth 34 frames after he bthrows sheik to be actionable. A missed tech takes 26 frames to complete. It takes at least 6 frames to react to the green flash. This means that sheik must take longer than about half a second to hit the ground after a back throw for this to be a true tech chase option. I haven't tested, but I doubt that it works.
I never labeled it as a tech chase option. If they miss the tech, I'm almost sure that it can successfully land before they can roll out of the way. It's something to watch for in the rare case of a missed tech to give yourself a pretty nice advantage if you're near the edge. I'm not saying that it's this amazing tech chase, just an option for punishing a missed tech by Sheik.
 

DeadPigeon

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 22, 2015
Messages
83
I never labeled it as a tech chase option. If they miss the tech, I'm almost sure that it can successfully land before they can roll out of the way. It's something to watch for in the rare case of a missed tech to give yourself a pretty nice advantage if you're near the edge. I'm not saying that it's this amazing tech chase, just an option for punishing a missed tech by Sheik.
Covering the missed tech is part of a tech chase. Regardless, like I said, unless it takes the sheik more than roughly 26 frames(with god-like reaction) to land after being bthrown, it is escapable. It will catch scrubs, but I really doubt it's guaranteed (given a missed tech).
 

FE_Hector

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Covering the missed tech is part of a tech chase. Regardless, like I said, unless it takes the sheik more than roughly 26 frames(with god-like reaction) to land after being bthrown, it is escapable. It will catch scrubs, but I really doubt it's guaranteed (given a missed tech).
I don't think it's guaranteed, but I'm fairly sure it's a bit tough to escape. A fair alternate to this, might be ftilting, but I feel like you have to walk a bit closer to them for that to land. Not sure about that option.
 

CoCo_Jungle

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 12, 2015
Messages
16
Guys I could use a little help, my friend uses Ganon and whenever we play on stages with platforms he spends a lot of time wavelanding and jumping around one platform and im not sure what to do? I try DD to bait him but he covers him self with a jab, aerial or Ftilt and I either end up getting hit or I dash away and I get nowhere. What is it that I can do?
 

FE_Hector

Smash Lord
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Messages
1,420
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Guys I could use a little help, my friend uses Ganon and whenever we play on stages with platforms he spends a lot of time wavelanding and jumping around one platform and im not sure what to do? I try DD to bait him but he covers him self with a jab, aerial or Ftilt and I either end up getting hit or I dash away and I get nowhere. What is it that I can do?
If he's going to spend so much time on platforms (basically, above you), I'd recommend DD for a little bit until he opens up. SH uair can easily cover the majority of the bottom platforms, and a full hop can (I think), handle the upper one, assuming we're in Battlefield. If you want, you could try jumping up from below him into a nair for extra (though sometimes riskier) platform coverage. Bottom line: if he's above you, take advantage of the fact that Marth's sword is so long and almost nothing can outspace it. I wouldn't recommend spending any amount of time on the same platform as Ganon. His more powerful moves tend to hit a good bit further than they would appear to, and his hits are nothing if not strong.
 

CoCo_Jungle

Smash Rookie
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Messages
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If he's going to spend so much time on platforms (basically, above you), I'd recommend DD for a little bit until he opens up. SH uair can easily cover the majority of the bottom platforms, and a full hop can (I think), handle the upper one, assuming we're in Battlefield. If you want, you could try jumping up from below him into a nair for extra (though sometimes riskier) platform coverage. Bottom line: if he's above you, take advantage of the fact that Marth's sword is so long and almost nothing can outspace it. I wouldn't recommend spending any amount of time on the same platform as Ganon. His more powerful moves tend to hit a good bit further than they would appear to, and his hits are nothing if not strong.
I realized this recently so I haven't tried any of this out, but would me approaching with a SH fair or nair to try and cover most of the platform work?
 
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FE_Hector

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I realized this recently so I haven't tried any of this out, but would me approaching with a fair or nair to try and cover most of the platform work?
I wouldn't recommend it, but it could theoretically work. If you needed to throw him off, though, it might be possible to run past him from underneath, then jump up for a bair. If the bair hit him onto another platform, then my next move would be to have already fallen through the platform so I can run up and nair the platform for a high chance of hitting him without horribly much risk. My big worry with fair/nair, though, is that if he sees it coming, he could easily force you to miss and punish, being why I suggested the fairly riskless uair from below.
 

CoCo_Jungle

Smash Rookie
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May 12, 2015
Messages
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I wouldn't recommend it, but it could theoretically work. If you needed to throw him off, though, it might be possible to run past him from underneath, then jump up for a bair. If the bair hit him onto another platform, then my next move would be to have already fallen through the platform so I can run up and nair the platform for a high chance of hitting him without horribly much risk. My big worry with fair/nair, though, is that if he sees it coming, he could easily force you to miss and punish, being why I suggested the fairly riskless uair from below.
Running past him and Bairing, Idk if you are crazy or a genius but I'll give it a try. I'll also try the uair from under. I'll let you know if it worked Im most likely gonna play him today or tomorrow.
 

FE_Hector

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Running past him and Bairing, Idk if you are crazy or a genius but I'll give it a try. I'll also try the uair from under. I'll let you know if it worked Im most likely gonna play him today or tomorrow.
Lol, I meant run past him when you're underneath him to try and fake him out and because it's range is weird. However, running through your opponent, if they expect you to not just run straight through them, can actually be an excellent idea. I've actually dashed up to my bros Sheik, DDd for a sec, and dashed on through him followed by a bair, read the techroll for a grab, and dominated the stock. It's gutsy, I'll admit, but it can be great.
 
Joined
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Messages
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Hey @ Dr Peepee Dr Peepee , you've talked about Marth's movement carrying threats along with it and how threats can be "active" in certain states of his movement. Well my question is this: what are the main threats that are active while Marth is dash dancing back and forth? I know grab and rising fair are definitely active, is that all?
 
Joined
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Messages
19,346
I am going to take a guess and say whatever actions are available to Marth at the time. For example, in dash forward you can shield, Dtilt, Dash Attack, short hop, shield, etc. Each carries different benefits, faults, and traits.

In dashing forward is Marth going to JC grab, Dtilt, aerial, stop in place, dash back, or other options? Dash back might threaten to outrun any attempt to be attacked and dash right back to punish ending lag of said attack at Marth. But, is dashing back going to really carry any threat if Marth has very little room to dash back?
 

Ahenobarbus

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I am going to take a guess and say whatever actions are available to Marth at the time. For example, in dash forward you can shield, Dtilt, Dash Attack, short hop, shield, etc. Each carries different benefits, faults, and traits.

In dashing forward is Marth going to JC grab, Dtilt, aerial, stop in place, dash back, or other options? Dash back might threaten to outrun any attempt to be attacked and dash right back to punish ending lag of said attack at Marth. But, is dashing back going to really carry any threat if Marth has very little room to dash back?
You're confusing Dash and Run. Can't do any grounded attacks out of dash unless you pivot.

Running past him and Bairing, Idk if you are crazy or a genius but I'll give it a try. I'll also try the uair from under. I'll let you know if it worked Im most likely gonna play him today or tomorrow.
He's crazy. It's not worth giving up stage position, especially since you're most likely to just hit his shield (unless you have a SUPER strong feel for when your opponent likes to take an out of shield option and can nail that timing with the bair. But even in that case you'll likely get a better punish from run through shield stop uair [hitting with the back of it]). If you hit his shield with run through bair, he shield drops or does a WD oos and reclaims center stage with you cornered. Uair or fair from under is better because you don't really lose much if you hit a shield.

In general, I would say try to notice his wavelanding patterns- does he fall into a rhythm with his movement? Does he always react in a certain way when you threaten a certain space? If so, punish.
 
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You can dash cancel moves from a run. Just crouch out of a run and you can do any grounded move.
right, but imagine dtilting out of a really quick back and forth dash dance, you can't really dtilt here. That is why I was thinking the threat of dtilt is not active
 
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Joined
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But should you be afraid of the threat of dtilt when a marth is dash dancing? it obviously depends on a lot of things but if I was relatively close to a dash dancing marth i wouldn't think dtilt would be a threat.
 

DeadPigeon

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Jun 22, 2015
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But should you be afraid of the threat of dtilt when a marth is dash dancing? it obviously depends on a lot of things but if I was relatively close to a dash dancing marth i wouldn't think dtilt would be a threat.
Well, if you are standing outside a marth's dashdance range, he can always full dash back, dash forward into run cc dtilt
 
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You're confusing Dash and Run. Can't do any grounded attacks out of dash unless you pivot.
This is part of what I was getting at as well. It goes to show the different aspects of Marth's movements and different actions you can take. Using Dtilt cannot be done from an initial dash and with his long dash much take longer time to come out. While JC grab can be done from an initial dash at any point along its length. Different threats at different ranges. Different benefits and downsides.
 

YvngFlameHoe

Smash Ace
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Guys I could use a little help, my friend uses Ganon and whenever we play on stages with platforms he spends a lot of time wavelanding and jumping around one platform and im not sure what to do? I try DD to bait him but he covers him self with a jab, aerial or Ftilt and I either end up getting hit or I dash away and I get nowhere. What is it that I can do?
I'm that Ganon
 

TFS | Zeb

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Jun 25, 2015
Messages
9
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but even out of a dash, can't you just WD into a down tilt? Given how powerful down tilt is for claiming stage presence, I think it's important a Marth player should be able to space himself such that down tilt can cover any distance around him even while in DD, through use of run canceling, WDing, or even mastering pivot down tilt. Then again I'm fairly new to competitive Melee, so I could be entirely off base.
 

Dr Peepee

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Hey @ Dr Peepee Dr Peepee , you've talked about Marth's movement carrying threats along with it and how threats can be "active" in certain states of his movement. Well my question is this: what are the main threats that are active while Marth is dash dancing back and forth? I know grab and rising fair are definitely active, is that all?
Dtilt, pivot grab/approaching JC grab to differentiate the grabs. Potentially Fsmash. I also like pivot rising Fair out of dash back. The main ones are grab, fair, and sometimes Dtilt depending on matchup. An important thing to note is Marth does not particularly like dashing backwards since he can only really pivot there. He doesn't have as quick of options as moving forward and he doesn't function as well giving up stage on average.

Dashing backwards then has a kind of neat use in that it's still quite long and you can't be sure if Marth will do it out of a dash forward, so it can kind of be a bait in itself if the opponent knows this.
 

Bonestorm

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Feb 21, 2015
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Dtilt, pivot grab/approaching JC grab to differentiate the grabs. Potentially Fsmash. I also like pivot rising Fair out of dash back. The main ones are grab, fair, and sometimes Dtilt depending on matchup. An important thing to note is Marth does not particularly like dashing backwards since he can only really pivot there. He doesn't have as quick of options as moving forward and he doesn't function as well giving up stage on average.

Dashing backwards then has a kind of neat use in that it's still quite long and you can't be sure if Marth will do it out of a dash forward, so it can kind of be a bait in itself if the opponent knows this.
I actually came here and created an account just to ask a question like this. When I play a fox that is well-versed in the neutral game, I often feel that my dashdance does just as much harm as good. I get baits and mixup the timings on approaches, but the other side of the coin is this: If I'm dashing away and fox is dashing at me, I don't know what to do. It feels like if I turn back, I have to either wavedash-turnaround into a dtilt or I have to shffl fair if I want to zone or prevent fox from having an advantage. Either option takes time and isn't without its weaknesses. Ideally, I feel like the best option is to pivot dtilt or ftilt to claim the space that I've created by dashing away while not necessarily committing to jumping or a lot of lag.

In other words, when I fight an experienced player, I feel that sometimes my dashdance is simply giving up space and not giving me much in return. My options during the dash feel limited to me and I am losing in neutral often because of this constriction. Is there something I could practice that might allow me to increase my "vocabulary" during dashdance, if it were?

Sorry for the long-windedness of this post.
 

The Leaf

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I actually came here and created an account just to ask a question like this. When I play a fox that is well-versed in the neutral game, I often feel that my dashdance does just as much harm as good. I get baits and mixup the timings on approaches, but the other side of the coin is this: If I'm dashing away and fox is dashing at me, I don't know what to do. It feels like if I turn back, I have to either wavedash-turnaround into a dtilt or I have to shffl fair if I want to zone or prevent fox from having an advantage. Either option takes time and isn't without its weaknesses. Ideally, I feel like the best option is to pivot dtilt or ftilt to claim the space that I've created by dashing away while not necessarily committing to jumping or a lot of lag.

In other words, when I fight an experienced player, I feel that sometimes my dashdance is simply giving up space and not giving me much in return. My options during the dash feel limited to me and I am losing in neutral often because of this constriction. Is there something I could practice that might allow me to increase my "vocabulary" during dashdance, if it were?

Sorry for the long-windedness of this post.
Pivot grab is amazing at catching a fox that is just running at you. The downside is that if they anticipate it, their running shine now has an extended hurtbox to hit. You can also fox trot into a pivot grab/fair/whatever or you can do the tricky option and take the stage from right beneath them by wavedashing back through them > dash away. Marth's dash dance is really cool in that you almost always have a way to create a good situation as long as you have enough space to full length dash in either direction.
 

Kadano

Magical Express
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Vienna, Austria
Dtilt, pivot grab/approaching JC grab to differentiate the grabs. Potentially Fsmash. I also like pivot rising Fair out of dash back. The main ones are grab, fair, and sometimes Dtilt depending on matchup. An important thing to note is Marth does not particularly like dashing backwards since he can only really pivot there. He doesn't have as quick of options as moving forward and he doesn't function as well giving up stage on average.
I agree with this in general, but I think that short hop bair from a backwards is a great spacing tool that is very hard to move through, even for Fox and Falcon. It can slow down the pace and often leads into a dtilt.
If Marth is pressured in close range, a quick dash away to short hop bair is his best option, imho. Assuming he has a bit of stage left behind him.
 
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ChivalRuse

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One thing about short hop bair that is problematic is that the hitboxes are concentrated really high up. Rising SH bair whiffs easily on small characters like Fox or dashing Sheik.
 

Dr Peepee

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I actually came here and created an account just to ask a question like this. When I play a fox that is well-versed in the neutral game, I often feel that my dashdance does just as much harm as good. I get baits and mixup the timings on approaches, but the other side of the coin is this: If I'm dashing away and fox is dashing at me, I don't know what to do. It feels like if I turn back, I have to either wavedash-turnaround into a dtilt or I have to shffl fair if I want to zone or prevent fox from having an advantage. Either option takes time and isn't without its weaknesses. Ideally, I feel like the best option is to pivot dtilt or ftilt to claim the space that I've created by dashing away while not necessarily committing to jumping or a lot of lag.

In other words, when I fight an experienced player, I feel that sometimes my dashdance is simply giving up space and not giving me much in return. My options during the dash feel limited to me and I am losing in neutral often because of this constriction. Is there something I could practice that might allow me to increase my "vocabulary" during dashdance, if it were?

Sorry for the long-windedness of this post.
Shadowboxing/understanding helps with this. Know what Fox can do trying to come forward. If you control your space well out of a dash back with something like pivot Fair then Fox will probably not fully chase your dash away. This means you have a chance to regain some stage or threaten or whatever. Now, giving up stage isn't necessarily bad. You can encourage Fox to take advantage of your weakness and then give up extra stage and get a nice grab by the edge(m2k does this a lot). So basically, I encourage you to consider how to control space out of a dash back if they come forward and how appropriate mixups go. If you find yourself losing stage and getting hit often on dashing back, then you need to broaden your options out of dash back, as well as take some time to watch what the opponent is specifically doing as you do so.

I agree with this in general, but I think that short hop bair from a backwards is a great spacing tool that is very hard to move through, even for Fox and Falcon. It can slow down the pace and often leads into a dtilt.
If Marth is pressured in close range, a quick dash away to short hop bair is his best option, imho. Assuming he has a bit of stage left behind him.
Yeah I learned about that a while ago but am not totally sure of its nuances so I didn't mention it. It's good though.
 

Bonestorm

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Pivot grab is amazing at catching a fox that is just running at you. The downside is that if they anticipate it, their running shine now has an extended hurtbox to hit. You can also fox trot into a pivot grab/fair/whatever or you can do the tricky option and take the stage from right beneath them by wavedashing back through them > dash away. Marth's dash dance is really cool in that you almost always have a way to create a good situation as long as you have enough space to full length dash in either direction.
Shadowboxing/understanding helps with this. Know what Fox can do trying to come forward. If you control your space well out of a dash back with something like pivot Fair then Fox will probably not fully chase your dash away. This means you have a chance to regain some stage or threaten or whatever. Now, giving up stage isn't necessarily bad. You can encourage Fox to take advantage of your weakness and then give up extra stage and get a nice grab by the edge(m2k does this a lot). So basically, I encourage you to consider how to control space out of a dash back if they come forward and how appropriate mixups go. If you find yourself losing stage and getting hit often on dashing back, then you need to broaden your options out of dash back, as well as take some time to watch what the opponent is specifically doing as you do so.
I'll ponder your words awhile and attempt to implement them into my play. Thank you for the replies
 

Dr3amSm4sher

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May 26, 2015
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You can pivot d-tilt, but that's quite difficult. Alternatively, you can dash dance > wavedash in place > d-tilt.
Circle or flick pivots are so much better for those. Just dash back and either immediately return to neutral or down (Its like 1 frame though.....kinda think sm4sh perfect pivots). Its only a few frames slower than a real pivot but much faster than wavedash down. Then do a dtilt. I'm semi consistent with the movement (flick pivots. Thank you sm4sh for something) but its sorta hard to get the dtilt without dsmash. I do them alot for pivot jabs and pivot ftilts.
 

ChivalRuse

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Yeah, I forgot about those. Thanks for bringing it up.

I probably forgot about that option because usually I just prefer to pivot grab in those situations.
 

BTmoney

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Do people truly believe Marth beats Fox on FD?

I am strongly of the opposite opinion. The MU is dead even on that stage and if not it's slight Fox. If you're not m2k you should not CP Fox to FD imho.

Historically in high level MUs no Marth comes close at all to substantiating the reason why Marth "beats" Fox on FD. It's only m2k and even his style on that stage is becoming less free (watch him vs leffen, him vs sfat, leffen vs ppu, the moon on FD vs spacies etc.) If Marth actually "won" there then I think more Marths would find success on that stage and auto CP it instead of picking stages like Yoshis, BF, or even FoD.

Even then way too many Marths default CP FD knowing fully well they can't complete a chain grab and WAY too many spacies waste a ban on FD vs noob or weak Marths when they should ban Yoshi's instead. That kind of player benefits 30x more from Yoshi's than FD.
 
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Dr3amSm4sher

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 26, 2015
Messages
54
FD make the matchup even more volatile. With no where to actually go down it just promotes mean juggles, like meaner than other stages (just think of captain falcon airwobbles but going up instead of sideways) . Both characters juggle the crap out of each other but while fox's can kill at like 80, marths juggle at 45-75% is a combo that can end in death as well. Or at least an edgeguard. The problem is while fox must work you to 80% with short strings (about 25 percent at a time), you can go from 0-55 with the chain grab where there is theoretically no way out and go directly into a juggle where fox can die and will be an actually combo. Now while most people do not have m2k prowess at the chain grab some do and that matchup on that stage is quite difficult for fox. But then we have the other end where fox's are getting better and just not getting grabbed. (Tighter pressure, faster movement, and better spacing) Fox's are also getting better at getting out the chaingrab with crazy slight di mixups and sdi on the uair hits to extend their air time and to possible get a shine out.

If you have your chaingrabs, pivot grabs, and uair strings on point then this matchup is all yours on this stage. (I have some days where will hit every pivot grab from 19-40 and then there are some where i cannot even turnaround grab) But if you don't then you are risking a lot on hope and theory. Theoretically, in 20XX all marth needs is fox to slip up just a couple frames or make one good read and that is stock that is why this matchup up on this stage is in marth's favor in theory. However with the difficulty of the chaingrab of taking it to kill percents and fox mains' punish game on marth makes this matchup the 50-50 it is seen as today.

The new marth who counterpick FD blindly will be weeded out by spacies destroying them until they learn the chaingrab properly and if the spacies waste a ban on FD take them to yoshis and enjoy the freest tippers and earliest kills in game. I'm fine if you waste your ban there. (Like I always ban dreamland. Regardless of the person or my character (except peach and puff) because i just hate that stage)
 
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Do people truly believe Marth beats Fox on FD?

I am strongly of the opposite opinion. The MU is dead even on that stage and if not it's slight Fox. If you're not m2k you should not CP Fox to FD imho.

Historically in high level MUs no Marth comes close at all to substantiating the reason why Marth "beats" Fox on FD. It's only m2k and even his style on that stage is becoming less free (watch him vs leffen, him vs sfat, leffen vs ppu, the moon on FD vs spacies etc.) If Marth actually "won" there then I think more Marths would find success on that stage and auto CP it instead of picking stages like Yoshis, BF, or even FoD.

Even then way too many Marths default CP FD knowing fully well they can't complete a chain grab and WAY too many spacies waste a ban on FD vs noob or weak Marths when they should ban Yoshi's instead. That kind of player benefits 30x more from Yoshi's than FD.
FD weakens some tools given to Fox on other stages. Often he has more defensive options with platforms than Marth gets. Plus, it strengthens his punish from cover tech chases to flat out hitting someone in histun the entire time. Its less error prone I would say making it favorable for the player. It does remove some DI + % combinations that would allow fox to escape as well.

Overall, I think it is one of the better stage choices against Fox.
 

Dr Peepee

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Do people truly believe Marth beats Fox on FD?

I am strongly of the opposite opinion. The MU is dead even on that stage and if not it's slight Fox. If you're not m2k you should not CP Fox to FD imho.

Historically in high level MUs no Marth comes close at all to substantiating the reason why Marth "beats" Fox on FD. It's only m2k and even his style on that stage is becoming less free (watch him vs leffen, him vs sfat, leffen vs ppu, the moon on FD vs spacies etc.) If Marth actually "won" there then I think more Marths would find success on that stage and auto CP it instead of picking stages like Yoshis, BF, or even FoD.

Even then way too many Marths default CP FD knowing fully well they can't complete a chain grab and WAY too many spacies waste a ban on FD vs noob or weak Marths when they should ban Yoshi's instead. That kind of player benefits 30x more from Yoshi's than FD.
I'll get the stats out of the way first. M2K has played best on that stage in tournament this is true. What is unknown is I have done better neutral than at Apex with equal or better punishment to him on that level a lot in quite a few training sessions. I also think Pewpewu does fine there if he gets an early lead for confidence. At any rate, Marths have been notorious choke masters in tournament for the past few years, or just not quite efficient/updated enough. I take little stock in what's going on in tournament for Marth right now since I think he can be doing better by leaps and bounds is what I'm trying to say.

Now then, I believe Marth beats Fox on the ground. Ground being SH height or lower for both characters. Marth can threaten Fox well with his Dtilt and rising Fair and JC grab but Fox trying to challenge by running in will have to worry about pivot grab or controlling space with AC Nair. The way it has worked out when I thought of this and how it all works together is Marth has a smallish advantage but one he can continually safely press until Fox starts to FH. FH makes life harder but on FD Fox doesn't have too many mixup options so Marth retains a bit more control overall in my opinion, though if you wanted to argue neutral went even there I'd find it fun. I still think Marth punishes harder there and has easier neutral on the level. When Fox has platforms to make FH more confusing to deal with that's when I think the matchup is more nuanced and interesting to play.

I know it may not look great for Marth in history or certain theory on the level, but I'll show it a bit later on in tournament I bet. That's all I can promise if the explanation isn't convincing I suppose.
 

BTmoney

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I'll get the stats out of the way first. M2K has played best on that stage in tournament this is true. What is unknown is I have done better neutral than at Apex with equal or better punishment to him on that level a lot in quite a few training sessions.
That's good to hear cause I'm not drinking the FD kool-aid anymore (vs. Fox). I do believe it's a winning MU in theory but the current meta says otherwise. Do you have set punish strings or %s or anything? It's something I really want to work on but in my experience Fox ditto'ing is so much easier. 0 to deathing another spacie is pretty easy as Fox but I think Marth's stuff is quite a bit harder and more variable.

Are you getting flat out kills or forcing favorable edge guard situations? I don't like relying on the other person DI'ing the tipper horribly and dying at 110 or going for a ken combo that's not guaranteed so I really would like to hear about what you're doing if you don't mind saying it.

Now then, I believe Marth beats Fox on the ground. Ground being SH height or lower for both characters. Marth can threaten Fox well with his Dtilt and rising Fair and JC grab but Fox trying to challenge by running in will have to worry about pivot grab or controlling space with AC Nair.
Can we actually talk about using both rising fair and AC nair as tools vs Fox? I find my AC nairs to be useless in the MU because I'll get the read/spacing right but they're always a few pixels above Fox's head and they never connect. They work a lot better when I FF them but I don't see other Marths doing that. I hardly ever use those moves specifically vs Fox but find plenty of use for them vs other character (Sheik, Peach, Falco etc).

One thing I struggle with pretty badly is when my bag of dash dance and d-tilt mixups isn't deep enough and this usually happens vs defensive Foxes on big stages. This has been less of a problem for me recently as my spacing and concept of neutral improves but there are times where I just go Fox because I feel like my Marth strat lacks diversity or the ability to counter that play style and I'm very unsure of how to add 3rd and 4th layers to my game vs Fox.
Would love to hear about that. Like the Leffen style Fox, I have no idea how to beat that on a big stage as Marth.
 
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Dr Peepee

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That's good to hear cause I'm not drinking the FD kool-aid anymore (vs. Fox). I do believe it's a winning MU in theory but the current meta says otherwise. Do you have set punish strings or %s or anything? It's something I really want to work on but in my experience Fox ditto'ing is so much easier. 0 to deathing another spacie is pretty easy as Fox but I think Marth's stuff is quite a bit harder and more variable.

Are you getting flat out kills or forcing favorable edge guard situations? I don't like relying on the other person DI'ing the tipper horribly and dying at 110 or going for a ken combo that's not guaranteed so I really would like to hear about what you're doing if you don't mind saying it.


Can we actually talk about using both rising fair and AC nair as tools vs Fox? I find my AC nairs to be useless in the MU because I'll get the read/spacing right but they're always a few pixels above Fox's head and they never connect. They work a lot better when I FF them but I don't see other Marths doing that. I hardly ever use those moves specifically vs Fox but find plenty of use for them vs other character (Sheik, Peach, Falco etc).

One thing I struggle with pretty badly is when my bag of dash dance and d-tilt mixups isn't deep enough and this usually happens vs defensive Foxes on big stages. This has been less of a problem for me recently as my spacing and concept of neutral improves but there are times where I just go Fox because I feel like my Marth strat lacks diversity or the ability to counter that play style and I'm very unsure of how to add 3rd and 4th layers to my game vs Fox.
Would love to hear about that. Like the Leffen style Fox, I have no idea how to beat that on a big stage as Marth.
Yeah sure I think the Fox ditto punish is easier no argument there. I'd prefer to just learn it with Marth though since it benefits more overall than putting time into a more niche cp.

I mean a lot of it is pretty straightforward for punishes. I don't often go for gimps but occasionally mix up when I do it. The interesting stuff doesn't start until around 40-50% I guess and that's when I try to start hitting Uairs. At that point they can sometimes be Fairs or if I'm feeling more confident I can force them to jump by moving toward them and then hitting(a different thing that I could also do after some "bad" weak Uairs at higher percent is provoke that jump). Anyway I'm starting to write and think about the stuff I do and it's either pretty intuitive or there are just so many parts since Marth's CG is insanely hard due to all the parts and Fox counterplay. I'd probably be better off showing it unless you have more specific questions or I play it more and then write about it =(

Are you appropriately FF'ing Nair? That's actually a big problem I've noticed. Reading your lines it seems you wanna do that so I think you totally should lol. M2K FFs his Nairs and gets a lot off of it if you wanna see someone who has done it well online already.

I don't know what the Foxes on big stages are doing once you make them respect Dtilt. It also depends on the stage. Nothing is guaranteed on DL so it's the hardest to talk about but you can always just get closeish to them without committing if they refuse to approach and this forces them to act. On other big levels this becomes more straightforward since platforms are harder to manipulate(or more obvious to manipulate if it's BF though I don't know if you're counting that as a big level).

Basically I don't have enough info but I can show what I said lol. If you have more specific questions that could work too.
 

BTmoney

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Are you appropriately FF'ing Nair? That's actually a big problem I've noticed. Reading your lines it seems you wanna do that so I think you totally should lol. M2K FFs his Nairs and gets a lot off of it if you wanna see someone who has done it well online already.
Oh yeah just cause you said AC nair lol. And people usually say that so I felt like I was just missing something.
I don't know what the Foxes on big stages are doing once you make them respect Dtilt. It also depends on the stage. Nothing is guaranteed on DL so it's the hardest to talk about but you can always just get closeish to them without committing if they refuse to approach and this forces them to act. On other big levels this becomes more straightforward since platforms are harder to manipulate(or more obvious to manipulate if it's BF though I don't know if you're counting that as a big level).

Basically I don't have enough info but I can show what I said lol. If you have more specific questions that could work too.
Hmm a more specific question then is how do you use raising fair vs Fox? Just on a macro level. Is it a proactive or reactive type of thing? and I assume you mean SH.

I ask because I feel like my DD grab/d-tilt game sort of devolves vs. very patient players on bigger stages so having a less binary approach to the stage/mu/neutral in general would probably help. But after thinking about my question and what you could say in response to that I suppose that if you're not hitting either of those 2 things then it means that they're probably running away and you have center stage/they're giving you stage and that's a punish in itself so I should probably get better at abusing that and get less antsy when things don't immediately come. Marth can use moves to take stage, not just to hit (thinking out loud).
 
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