Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[dRevan64]

From what I can tell, there are tons of animations where you are actionable, but you aren't in the stand/wait animation so your character doesn't get the green overlay.

Yeah, I don't think the green shows IASA for example. Something to ask achilles about.

 

[townes]

What happens if someone phantom hits your counter? Does counter activate or nah? Never seen this information anywhere. I can't game test it myself. It's way too hard to set up a phantom.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

At what percentages against the top tiers does the first hit of DB become safe on hit* (no CC from your opponent) and at what percentages can they no longer CC it? How does this compare to jab?

I'm not really expecting this to be answered directly, but more to start a conversation about these moves and their place. I'm thinking that jab is in general the better option at low percents (the tipper hit isn't bad at all), but at higher percents using DB might be the superior option.

* - I used to use DB all the time back in the day, but then I started getting punished on hit (without CC). This could have been merely a spacing issue, but I would like to confirm that. In any case, aside from floaty chars, I hardly ever use DB because of my past negative experiences from using the move.

I will give you an example of why its bad on Fox. It takes until ~170% for Fox to get knocked over by DB without any CC. DB the whole way up to this point will cause Fox to land on the ground before you get out of lag of DB time and time again. The knockback growth on it is that bad. With CC, this effect keeps taking place until ~550%. That is when it actually knocks him over completely.

The funny thing is that the hitstun is there for Marth to have come out with a frame advantage. But, the launch combined with Fox's fast faller traits causes him to touch the ground canceling the hitstun. Plus, he does not knock over from the move until stupid percents. Yeah, its not worth it to use on Fox be it in the air or on the ground. Only time is when offstage.

I imagine this would be similar with Falco/Falcon/Sheik for absurd percentages and not worth using.

 

[P D]

What's the best way to deal with falco's neutral game?

best way to cover mid knock back illusion recoveries?

How should I DI in a falco pillar combo? I always DI away but i never move out of range or move barely at all.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

How should I DI in a falco pillar combo? I always DI away but i never move out of range or move barely at all.

Shine will not send you straight up, but at an angle slightly ahead of Falco. Therefore, trying to DI behind Falco makes it slightly easier for him to follow-up on you compared to trying to DI away. Similar with Dair. It sends you at an angle downwards and away from Falco. Therefore, trying to DI towards Falco puts you straight down when Dair connects. You want to DI away from Falco to put yourself further away.

I am not going to say there is correct DI all the time for Shine/Dair/Utilt type things. Sometimes you do want to change it up. DI towards Falco on Dair and tech inwards allows you to try rolling behind him. Or you can try to DI away and slide off a platform/stage to cancel your stun time.

In general, DI away/towards on Shine is best as it limits the number of hits Falco makes on you compared before you reach stage edge.

As for why you are not moving very much its likely you are either holding towards falco on Dairs and possibly not at all on shines. If you get DI away on Shine you can completely avoid shine full hop follow-ups at mid% and more.

@ MookieRah :
I tried looking at DB1 on Jiggs CC'ing the first hit. I stopped after 300%. Suffice to say I think DB should only be used for aerial targets. Its weird to think that DB1 -> Utilt is a legitimately guaranteed in hitstun at high percents on Jiggs (no CC) and not hitting jiggs super high in the air. o.0

 

[Signia]

Its weird to think that DB1 -> Utilt is a legitimately guaranteed in hitstun at high percents on Jiggs (no CC) and not hitting jiggs super high in the air. o.0

At what percent does it start being guaranteed? This would be good to know for all characters.

 

[Bones0]

At what percent does it start being guaranteed? This would be good to know for all characters.

Probably never with SDI.

 

[Signia]

Probably never with SDI.

When the **** are people going to SDI a DB? Be reasonable.

 

[tauKhan]

When the **** are people going to SDI a DB? Be reasonable.

Ever heard of Armada? In some of his games vs pp he sdi'd out of a ridiculous amount of DBs.

 

[Bones0]

When the **** are people going to SDI a DB? Be reasonable.

When I play Puff and am drifting down against a Marth I can SDI up pretty consistently. It's not that hard if you're expecting it. Not sure what kind of answer you were expecting when you ask if something in Melee is "guaranteed". It doesn't even matter if it's guaranteed in a certain situation because it's easier to just react to their DI and attack accordingly than it is to remember character-specific percents, determine which hitbox will be the one to connect, and 10 other miniscule adjustments you will have to make to ensure it's "guaranteed".

I swear, 99% of the time people say "oh, I wish I knew what percents this worked at", they get the answer and continue doing it by their instincts anyway. If I told you DB -> utilt didn't true combo on Puff until 90%, does that mean you wouldn't do it at 85%? I don't understand why you wouldn't since most Puffs don't know any way to deal with it and the ones that do might not be super frame perfect on whatever escape option they choose.

 

[Signia]

@ Bones0 @ T tauKhan

What looks like SDIing up can often just be ASDI+DI up here due to DB's trajectory. The move comes out in what, 6 frames? And the hitlag is short. Reacting with SDI is not happening. If you predict a DB, well, you probably should have avoided it in the first place. You'd only see it SDI on a crazy read or on a clear-cut punish.

There's no minuscule adjustments required in this situation, so everything you just said there doesn't matter. The combo is a simple link, of course you want to know when it's guaranteed. They might not have their escape frame perfect, but neither will you necessarily get a frame perfect link! Knowing when it's guaranteed will at least tell you that with all imperfections equal, the move will hit.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

At what percent does it start being guaranteed? This would be good to know for all characters.

I have been looking at doing a post analysis of DB1 -> Utilt on Jibbs, Fox, Falco, Sheik, Peach, Falcon, and Marth. I want to look at it more before simply giving numbers which anyone can do at the moment.

Probably never with SDI.

The main point is that DB1 -> Utilt at higher percents is an extra viable option Marth picks up against aerial opponents. If your opponent tries attacking you with an aerial you have the ability to replace say dash back and grab the landing with DB1 instead. The main idea is that the move should work because they made the first move. You simply have to time/space right. If you hit, then at some percent you have enough hitstun to be able to use Utilt and hit them in hitstun.

This does not mean its guaranteed to cover all DI options. As I said its guaranteed in duration of the hitstun. The benefit of hitting with DB1 is that Marth can cover a variety of DI options from simply Utilt or turn -> Utilt. You have ~25 frames on the hit of DB1 to react to the DI and decide if you can cover with Utilt or not. If not, then you cannot be retaliated against for having hit with DB1. Additionally, you still maintain an advantage for simply having hit with DB1 in the first place.

Therefore, its a situation that you set-up which you can end a stock (Utilt KO) or at the very least set-up to follow up with something else if they burn a jump or not.

When the **** are people going to SDI a DB? Be reasonable.

I think the thing you should do foremost is use options that prevent your opponent from being able to do anything at all if you can. Even if people are unable to SDI/DI DB1 consistently it is a potential option that can occur. Your opponent might simply DI/SDI on accident (or intentionally). Therefore, this is an option you should consider and have a plan on how to deal with it.

Its why DB1 on the grounded targets is not perfect. Yes, you might catch them with no CC at low percents, but every character can CC DB1 until insane percents (above 300%) and punish you for using DB1. In the air, at higher percents DB1 has enough hitstun that characters cannot retaliate against you for hitting with the move. Thus, you lose nothing for hitting with DB1, you can cover several options, and you maintain an advantage.

When I play Puff and am drifting down against a Marth I can SDI up pretty consistently. It's not that hard if you're expecting it. Not sure what kind of answer you were expecting when you ask if something in Melee is "guaranteed". It doesn't even matter if it's guaranteed in a certain situation because it's easier to just react to their DI and attack accordingly than it is to remember character-specific percents, determine which hitbox will be the one to connect, and 10 other miniscule adjustments you will have to make to ensure it's "guaranteed".

I swear, 99% of the time people say "oh, I wish I knew what percents this worked at", they get the answer and continue doing it by their instincts anyway. If I told you DB -> utilt didn't true combo on Puff until 90%, does that mean you wouldn't do it at 85%? I don't understand why you wouldn't since most Puffs don't know any way to deal with it and the ones that do might not be super frame perfect on whatever escape option they choose.

PPMD put this well once before along with Umbreon I believe. Scoping out potential situations and having a plan makes you a better player in the long run. It makes you better at consistency and give you better timing. Mainly since you practice a situation multiple times. Additionally, pressing a button at exactly X milliseconds later is easier to time a move than reacting on surprise.

There is a benefit to practicing CGs on Fox/Falco and recognizing percents. I dropped CGs on Fox all the time thinking I could grab fox in place at like 19% with no DI. I think there are benefits to doing this sort of thing. If the benefit is great enough I think its worth knowing percents. Such as Falcon has options until like 30% off Uthrow. Therefore, I want to tech chase him until 30%, then get easier to land Uthrow follow-ups.

Knowing DB1 -> Utilt percents on aerial opponents is a minor thing. However, its a common enough situation I think and a strong enough position that it can be worth taking note of to minimize times when you use it and get punished because you did it too low of a percent.

 

[IdkLmao]

Its weird seeing how uncertain you guys are still acting about this game
If you spent all this time figuring out how to actually be good you wouldn't be wasting hours a day ******* around in topics like this

Here is how to be the best in the world at this game
1- Pick a top tier and as a stretch less than top tier if you want to be a boss
2- Have a punish and approach game designed to do as much damage and create as many openings as possible. That respects and caters to what your character does vs the individual characters. This gives you the best punish game vs marth and a better best punish game vs fox etc.
3- Understand good defensive options
4- Have a reliable you're always going to win edge guard strat against the whole cast that you've practiced into muscle memory so you can do it without thinking
5- Have a reliable recovery strat so you always get back on the stage without thinking
6- Grind your techskill out so much that you can do it at will any way you want without thinking about it
7- Have really really crisp movement that isn't mindless and exists to help you do well against the individual characters without thinking
8- When you build your combo game make your combos as short and easy s you can to the KO % and try purposely to learn not to include moves that let them escape. UNLESS its leading into a situation you're prepared to trick them into getting hit again. If you can find a way to style and combo how you want without being worse at the game that also works.
9. Put more than 3 hours a day into the game or less if you can't keep your hand health up
10. Care about your health and get enough sleep and exercise and eat right so you last longer in training and play better
11. Understand the principles behind why you get hit or land hits and make improvements in your strategy to avoid getting hit and to build on why you're landing hits until you're landing hits all the time and people are having a really hard time hitting you even one time
12. - Understand how to decide what you need to learn and where you are in skill completely and comprehensively so you have that starting point and build a training routine around what you still need to learn so you cover all your bases and spend your time working on everything you still don't know
13- Read into mentalities that let you play better and avoid anxiety and choking so you're level headed and playing at your best all the time. Tons of books on this subject.
14- Actually for once take the time to read/watch through all the information we have on being good at the game on youtube and smashboards and make the decision to use this information to identify what you can't do and need to learn and make plans to learn these things.


Nobody is doing all of this and theres even more than this that you could be doing.

But I bet when it comes down to it most of you don't train an hour a day and what you do as "training" is probably very bad at creating a skill improvement anyway.

Get started and stop sucking at smash. How many of you have had the same or near the same results for years? PPMD isn't a special case here. You all could make leaps and get good like he did. So get good. And stop wasting months here being bad like you already have.

Hey guys just want to apologize for that post there. That post was coming from an immature egotistical place with me that I disapprove of and I don't think poorly of anyone still trying to improve at this game. I take back any potential insulting implication that post gave. That posts attitude is not what I stand for as a person and you guys don't deserve any disrespect.
My post wasn't even a very comprehensive solid approach on getting really good anyway lol.


This thread is very solid. I'll be sure to use its information to help me improve at the game. A big thank you to everybody involved here trying to add and improve our understanding of the game.

 

[Ahenobarbus]

If someone CCs DB1, can you counter that with the fastest timing of DB2 (assuming you see them crouch before the DB1 hit or read the CC)?

Maybe a better way to ask is: is DB2 a true followup on CCed DB1, or is it a pseudo combo dependent on your opponent not buffering a defensive option?

Is this % dependent? Honestly I don't even know if the small amount of stun on a CCing opponent is constant or varies with percent, move, character weight/gravity.

 

[MookieRah]

I'm thinking you could probably shield before it came out, but if they don't they will likely CC DB2. You are screwed at that point.

 

[.alizarin]

how do you hold the space you have/gain when dash dancing? the only options i see are dtilt and maybe fair/nair in place or something. i'm especially hesitant on putting out an aerial since it forfeits so many of your options, so i guess you can't do it preemptively (ac nair is i guess a smaller issue). are you supposed to just react to whatever option they choose to try and invade your space and stuff it out and get more space after that?

i really don't want to do a retreating aerial because then i'm giving stage and whatnot, and wd back -> react (fair if they jump in, dtilt if they run in) i feel is fine vs more aggressive players, but vs patient ones who know how to wait, i usually lose a bit of the space with no significant gain.

 

[BTmoney]

Yeah, I don't think the green shows IASA for example. Something to ask achilles about.

Is that something people want? Sounds like a good idea to me. He lives next to me and I play with him sometimes so I'll ask him about it. He's coding all the time.

 

[CoCo_Jungle]

Yo What's up everyone!

 

[dRevan64]

Is that something people want? Sounds like a good idea to me. He lives next to me and I play with him sometimes so I'll ask him about it. He's coding all the time.

I'd definitely use it. I'm pretty sure I suck at cancelling dtilt in a timely fashion.

 

[Dr Peepee]

how do you hold the space you have/gain when dash dancing? the only options i see are dtilt and maybe fair/nair in place or something. i'm especially hesitant on putting out an aerial since it forfeits so many of your options, so i guess you can't do it preemptively (ac nair is i guess a smaller issue). are you supposed to just react to whatever option they choose to try and invade your space and stuff it out and get more space after that?

i really don't want to do a retreating aerial because then i'm giving stage and whatnot, and wd back -> react (fair if they jump in, dtilt if they run in) i feel is fine vs more aggressive players, but vs patient ones who know how to wait, i usually lose a bit of the space with no significant gain.

this question was asked a page or two ago I believe. the short answer is it's okay to give up stage sometimes if it works just don't always do it. movement works because of what's attached to it. think incrementally not in terms of hitting them right away because marth can't normally do direct hits.

 

[rd1023]

How do I practice my counter edge guards? Doing it against computers won't really help much, what situations should I just DJ fair or reverse up b? or simply hold onto ledge?

 

[BTmoney]

When the CPU upBs from below the stage counter.

It's one of the more practicable things. I'm not sure why you say it's not helpful.

After you counter WD FF to the ledge and act out the motion you would need to take if you were fighting an actually person (since the Cpu will usually just fall), like doing a back air then doing a sweet spot up B to the ledge. Think about if they were to fall straight down and how that is a hard angle for marth to cover. Stuff like that.

Grab ledge when they are too far away to reach the stage lol and that's a good rule of thumb 95% of the time.

Always fair falco when you see him up B below the stage. It's free and guaranteed. If he's too close fair him. Fox you can do the same but you're going to catch fox in a lot less bad upBs and you will have to space yourself better since he has a hitbox when he charges his Firefox unlike falco.

Reverse up B is good but it's a little advanced and risky. It's rarely necessary but usually it ends/completes the edge guard if you get the hit. Very good vs fox when he is up B'ing below the level and you know he has to pick certain angles. It's often interchangeable with a little more drawn out counter edge guard though. Which most people prefer

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

CPU's often UpB at a height and distance from the stage where counter is not the preferred choice. Counter is really only good if Fox/Falco are directly below the ledge and any angle will cause them to hit your counter. However, even then if they are at the right spacing they can ride the stage to sweetspot the ledge and avoid the counter.

 

[dRevan64]

Most of the time if a spacie's in a counterable position below the stage you have time to wait and go for counter on reaction or [something else] if they go for a sneaky option. Perfect sweetspotting will always be hard to cover of course.

 

[Beat!]

Grabbing the ledge just as their up-B starts moving (so they don't have time to react) is a solid mixup against perfect sweetspotting.

 

[dRevan64]

Grabbing the ledge just as their up-B starts moving (so they don't have time to react) is a solid mixup against perfect sweetspotting.

Perfect sweetspotting is a little bit ambiguous from a lot of positions; there are times when a spacie will get super close but the hitbox of the upb will dip just ever so slightly over the ledge. But in most cases I think a ramen noodle will still cover it, you almost never see a spacie player ride the wall and land on stage.

 

[Beat!]

Yeah, I generally don't start going for it until the spacie player has shown that they can get the sweetspot somewhat consistently. I just keep using counter otherwise.

 

[v-$]

I feel like no one ramen noodle's the ledge vs. spacies, which seems odd to me given that in today's day and age most spacies go for ledge. Is there a reason for this? jw

 

[dRevan64]

I feel like no one ramen noodle's the ledge vs. spacies, which seems odd to me given that in today's day and age most spacies go for ledge. Is there a reason for this? jw

honestly I'd chalk it up to it being a slightly scary input to go for, real easy to be too slow and get burned and then killed because spacies are silly

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I feel like no one ramen noodle's the ledge vs. spacies, which seems odd to me given that in today's day and age most spacies go for ledge. Is there a reason for this? jw

Why does there have be to random names to describe things like the Ken Combo. Hax Dash. Ramen Noodle. I miss stuff like DACUS or SHFFL which literally described everything you were doing in series of actions.

Anyway, what the hell is a noodle in smash?

 

[Beat!]

"Ramen noodles" is a term - coined by DJ Nintendo - for when you grab the ledge super quickly the moment before a recovering opponent can get to it.

Edit: actually that may not have been quite what you asked about. The "noodles" part is because it's fast. That's it really lol.


Anyway, like I said I do it a bunch as a mixup or when I have a solid read. Turns some potentially tricky edgeguards into really easy kills and generally makes the recovery mixup game even more difficult/scary for the spacie.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I forgot to add the Ramen bit in that reply. So, pretty much edgehogging, got it.

As to why people edgehog @ v-$ infrequently is because edgehogging is often times not the best idea for Fox/Falco. Edgehogging takes time despite how fast one might try doing it. Ftilt at the ledge, Dtilt, Jab, SH Fair will all be faster to set-up and execute than dash over to the ledge turn around and wavedash back and fast fall onto the ledge.

If you ever do this while Fox/Falco have their 2nd jump -> sideB you are gambling because you have no inclination that your edgehog will stop this option to the upper platforms. With Marth's moveset its far more often Fox/Falco recover from at stage level or higher rather than near the lower left/right corners of the map. This means you have to cover the ledge, stage, and platforms. Edgehog only covers one and there is no reacting to SideB with edgehogging.

With UpB, its different, but why even bother edgehogging? Just go out there and kill them. There is enough start-up lag. Not to mention that the closer to get to them during this time the less angles they can use to avoid a sword.

Edgehogging is going to be the most efficient option when Fox/Falco MUST go for the ledge, but this happens infrequently as I mentioned earlier. Its almost always most likely a person recovers from at stage level or higher due to DI.

 

[TheBestinWestPalmBeach]

I'm trying to practice pivot double fair and can't time it too consistently. Anybody here have an pivot aerials advice for marth? I've seen it's more commonly a fox/falcon thing.

I'm also trying to practice shield pivot retreating double fair and can only get it on one side (Marth facing left is my good side). I normally use Z for my first fair in a double fair facing right, I think if I perfectly pivot I can get a halfway retreating fair. Anybody have insight because I'm super lost with this scenario.

 

[MookieRah]

I've written a proto-guide to empty pivots. When I can use it consistently in matches I'll post it in it's own thread, but you might find this helpful for now.

This is more about landing empty pivots (even more specifically pivot dtilt). If you are working with other forms of pivoting, you might as well work on this too. It's helped me with normal pivot stuff indirectly, and it would definitely help with the shield pivots, as if you can do empty pivots it would make shield pivots easy by comparison.

 

[Siccamende]

Hey, first time writing on the Marth Forums. I was wondering if anyone can explain to me how to properly punish teching on platforms with up-tilt/ Up air on Spacies with Marth? Is there some kind of visual queue to punish Teching left or right or missed tech optimally? Thanks!

 

[ChivalRuse]

Hey, first time writing on the Marth Forums. I was wondering if anyone can explain to me how to properly punish teching on platforms with up-tilt/ Up air on Spacies with Marth? Is there some kind of visual queue to punish Teching left or right or missed tech optimally? Thanks!

Put yourself in that situation over and over by practicing upthrow on CPUs such that they land on a platform. You will get used to the frames for missed tech, which will give you invaluable data that you can use for calculating the time needed to set up your tipped u-tilts or sweetspotted shffl'd uairs.

 

[MookieRah]

Read Kadano's thread, it talks about uair on reaction against characters that land on platforms.

Get 20XX.

Throw lots of CPUs on the platform and keep trying until you understand and have good consistency.

 

[dRevan64]

I'm trying to practice pivot double fair and can't time it too consistently. Anybody here have an pivot aerials advice for marth? I've seen it's more commonly a fox/falcon thing.

I'm also trying to practice shield pivot retreating double fair and can only get it on one side (Marth facing left is my good side). I normally use Z for my first fair in a double fair facing right, I think if I perfectly pivot I can get a halfway retreating fair. Anybody have insight because I'm super lost with this scenario.

For pivot aerials I mostly do shieldstops instead; that's pewpewu's method as I understand it too. They're considerably easier if a tiny bit slower.

 

[Siccamende]

Read Kadano's thread, it talks about uair on reaction against characters that land on platforms.

Get 20XX.

Throw lots of CPUs on the platform and keep trying until you understand and have good consistency.

I have 20XX, but I forgot where in Kadano's Threads where he says the specific timings. I checked and I couldn't find it (maybe I'm looking in the wrong place?).

 

[Siccamende]

Well, I'm an idiot. I forgot to scroll down lower in the thread.