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Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

linkoninja

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 26, 2009
Messages
459
Location
Los Angeles
I went to a tournament a few weeks ago and I was proud to get 5th because dealing with tournament nerves has been difficult for me. I was surprised to find that I beat players when I wasn't completely familiar the matchups. (Samus and Ganon) but I lost two Marth dittos which I consider my most familiar matchup. Any tips in the matchup? I know generally whoever does something first is at a disadvantage. I feel a lot of it was due to nerves but one of the marth's I felt was slightly better than me.

Some things that kept happening to me.
I kept getting forward throw chain thrown into F-smash due to missed techs and bad di. I'm guessing I should DI down and away or down and up.
I was having trouble getting back on stage from the ledge.
I just felt like the other players had a better neutral game than me. The matches weren't free going 2-1 and even then last stock but I couldn't clutch it out.
 
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townes

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 7, 2011
Messages
84
Location
Memphis, TN
Just hold (DI) the opposite direction you are getting forward thrown and fsmash or regrab will never connect. DI away essentially. Marth does have trouble getting back from the ledge, so you have to realize what options you have and then figure out which is the right one for your opponent: WD on, LH fair, LH nair, LH uair, LH dair, perfect land to stuff, WD on to stuff, roll, neutral get up, tournament winner. The other marth can't cover all of those options, but chances are he was covering most of them and you chose the wrong one. If he's looking for dtilts, certain options work, but if he's looking for WD back fsmash and grab on reaction, different options work. In neutral dash dance grab, dtilt, and do tricky dash dance wavedash ppmd stuff. The neutral game in the ditto shouldn't be that bad. If nothings working just do exactly what they do. A lot of the time, if their DD game is on point, you need to be putting a grab or a dtilt much farther past where you think they're going to be because they will be dash dancing to avoid that exact option. Basically attack past them.
 

net1234

Smash Ace
Joined
May 15, 2013
Messages
738
Location
SLC Utah
How do you edgeguard:

-Mario/Doc
-Samus
-Jigglypuff
Im pretty sure u can marth killer doc and Mario if u ff it. With samus I really like to go offstage and just keep myself between the stage and her to pressure her to go low. I like to WD off with a back air at that point and If u get hit by her zair when she Grapples the stage it turns u around towards her and you can reverse dolphin slash her. I dont think u can really edgegaurd puff that well its usually kind of a given that she will get back. I use it as more of an opportunity to pin her to the edge and rack up some % with fairs and ftilts n stuff\

edit: u can marth killer luigi not mario sorry
 
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townes

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 7, 2011
Messages
84
Location
Memphis, TN
You should watch pewpewu vs shroomed to see how to edgeguard doc. You CANNOT marth killer doc or mario. That doesn't work and is dumb. You need to learn samus recovery to edgeguard her properly. If you don't understand her DJ, bomb jumps, grapple sweetspot, and upB, you're in for a bad time. If you're confident you can go out and hit samus, but realize that that is extremely risky and if done wrong, you're gunna get reverse edgeguarded by a good samus who saves her DJ. Don't edgeguard puff. If puff recovers like an idiot, go get a free fair. If puff is below the stage being dumb, you can get some cheese dtilts if they suck. Do not go deep offstage against puff.
 

townes

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 7, 2011
Messages
84
Location
Memphis, TN
Marth isn't a very approach driven character. He's not like spacies who can aerial shine with impunity so long as they connect with a shield. With marth you should be thinking DD grab and DD dtilt. I'm not saying never approach, but waiting to see what your opponent is doing and reacting will often be far better than running in with a nair or YOLO SHDF's at your opponent.
 

townes

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 7, 2011
Messages
84
Location
Memphis, TN
Does boost grabbing out of a stickywalk have some kinda different range or visual effect than dash grabbing out of a stickywalk because I know that dash grab and boost grab with marth are virtually the same in every aspect? O nvmd you're totally right because you'd dash grab the slow dash from the sticky walk and the boost grab would give you that normal sized boost from the dash attack. Lol. I like to do the WD back dash forward, wait a second, and then dash forward again. I thin it's called a cactus dash or something around these parts.
 

net1234

Smash Ace
Joined
May 15, 2013
Messages
738
Location
SLC Utah
Does boost grabbing out of a stickywalk have some kinda different range or visual effect than dash grabbing out of a stickywalk because I know that dash grab and boost grab with marth are virtually the same in every aspect? O nvmd you're totally right because you'd dash grab the slow dash from the sticky walk and the boost grab would give you that normal sized boost from the dash attack. Lol. I like to do the WD back dash forward, wait a second, and then dash forward again. I thin it's called a cactus dash or something around these parts.
yeah dude it gets people every time lol its so unexpected. marth can do a lot of crazy stuff with his dd cuz hes so slippery and make his approach super funky looking.

@ Ozai Firelord Ozai Firelord i would watch approaching with fair cuz at low % anyone good will cc and grab u if its not spaced well and thats terrible as a marth, i really just like to throw out grabs cuz its pretty hard to punish and the reward on a fast faller is pretty much a stock. wd downtilt ( or i guess pivot dtilt if ur ridiculously godlike) its a great option because ist an annoying 7% and like it makes them feel pressured from a hit. u can get a grab off a dtilt a lot if u read a spotdodge or they have terrible di. its kinda like a falco laser cuz it has no real guaranteed followup but puts ur opponent in a sorta 50/50 stance where ul either dash away or grab and it has good range and helps with stage control. im not sure how good this advice is im still probably a scrub maybe PP could tell u something better. a good rule is just dont approach unless ur down and just dd grab everything and mask ur camping behind **** talk and hard punishes lol

running up with shield is pretty good too in moderation
 
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Ozai Firelord

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 8, 2015
Messages
3
Okay thanks I'm kind of a scrub myself so it helps to hear that stuff.

I have another pretty basic question, what are the best ways to deal with real floaty characters? Is there any throw chain that works well, like maybe a forward throw chain?
 

net1234

Smash Ace
Joined
May 15, 2013
Messages
738
Location
SLC Utah
Okay thanks I'm kind of a scrub myself so it helps to hear that stuff.

I have another pretty basic question, what are the best ways to deal with real floaty characters? Is there any throw chain that works well, like maybe a forward throw chain?
sometimes u can fthrow->pivot fsmash puffs/peaches on bad di. there are actually garunteed kill options on fthrow on a puff but their tricky and require near frame perfect execution. i would to to kadanos frame perfect marth forum for that kinda stuff. generally with floaties i like to just up throw and try to read a jump or something. keep them up in the air with shffl uairs and uptilts.
 

Beat!

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
3,214
Location
Uppsala, Sweden
beat, good **** at beast 5
But I lost. :(

Thanks, though.

Played an off stream serious bo5 vs Amsah after my loss to Android. Won 3-1. Normally I would've felt extremely happy about it but now it just added insult to injury since I would've faced Amsah in top 8.

I want to see the vids so bad god damnit.
There were a lot of hype sets but most bracket matches weren't recorded due to smash 4 and pm taking up so much stream time.
 

RaphaelRobo

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 24, 2011
Messages
2,833
There's this really good Falco player in my town who likes to play Marth against me in friendlies. His Marth is really really good though, so I always lose to him. Dr. PPMD can you give me cactuar's advice on how to beat this Marth?
 
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SleepyK

Banned via Administration
Joined
Mar 26, 2006
Messages
5,871
ppmd why do you never help raphaelrobo with this particular player he's having trouble with? he's been asking me for help against the particular player for a quite some time.
 

Tarv

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 16, 2012
Messages
425
Location
Outside of Pittsburgh
Wondering about a specific situation during The Moon vs Hax at Justice 4.

The Moon uthrows. Hax DI's left and then techs left on the platform. No surprises so far. The Moon attempts a follow-up on the platform but shields. First off, I'm guessing he was going for a grab here? Or maybe he was worried about getting shined? Regardless, If the Moon would have SH Fair'd in a way that marth was underneath about the middle of the platform would that have been a better option than the platform follow-up grab attempt? What was the best option in the situation for The Moon?

Thanks!
 
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Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Wondering about a specific situation during The Moon vs Hax at Justice 4.

The Moon uthrows. Hax DI's left and then techs left on the platform. No surprises so far. The Moon attempts a follow-up on the platform but shields. First off, I'm guessing he was going for a grab here? Or maybe he was worried about getting shined? Regardless, If the Moon would have SH Fair'd in a way that marth was underneath about the middle of the platform would that have been a better option than the platform follow-up grab attempt? What was the best option in the situation for The Moon?

Thanks!
It looks like he pressed Z to grab, but he was still in his WD landing lag so he lightshielded instead. Then he tried to repress Z and naired. I'm pretty sure he could have SHed towards the center of the platform to cover all of the tech options with uair. It's hard to tell what would happen from there because Hax was at a low enough percent he could have CCed, but you still have Fox stuck on the plat. He also could have just WLed a little more smoothly and gotten the grab.
 

Tarv

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 16, 2012
Messages
425
Location
Outside of Pittsburgh
Hmm, interesting. Thanks for the reply Bones

Do you think that getting the utilt trap would've been preferred to getting the grab even if Hax had CC'd? I think going up on the platform at all was a mistake, just seems like an unnecessary risky position to set up a much more difficult kill.

I'm liking discussing really specific interactions like this. Perhaps I should bother y'all more often with them
 
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Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Hmm, interesting. Thanks for the reply Bones

Do you think that getting the utilt trap would've been preferred to getting the grab even if Hax had CC'd? I think going up on the platform at all was a mistake, just seems like an unnecessary risky position to set up a much more difficult kill.

I'm liking discussing really specific interactions like this. Perhaps I should bother y'all more often with them
I think getting the grab on the plat is optimal because you get guaranteed damage once you're set up. Their best option at that point is to try to DI to the top plat, but doing so risks fthrow->fsmash on the DI in, and after 1-2 more throws, he would have been able to utilt the DI in to pull him back away from the top plat before he lands.
 

Clebus

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 29, 2013
Messages
203
Location
Tennessee
Hey can I get some help with the pichu matchup? Got beaten handily by one recently. Specifically neutral and recovering.

In neutral I feel like i can't DD and get a grab on a missed aerial simply because of pichu's low landing lag. I guess cc fsmash might work but I'm not really sure about anything.

Secondly I have a hard time recovering. My up b is almost useless it seems, since if I go for the ledge I just get marth killer'd (maybe I just can't sweetspot) and if I try to land on the stage the pichu can just jump OoS (or off the ledge if I hit his shield) and reverse nair me before I recover from my landing lag. Tips?
 

RaphaelRobo

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 24, 2011
Messages
2,833
Dr. PPMD, this Marth player I'm struggling with pulled out his fox today and bodied me. Can you give me some tips on how to beat said fox?
 

Diya

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 18, 2015
Messages
1
in neutral, I dont get when to stay grounded (dash dance/d tilt) and when to jump. (mostly focused on fox)

for me, in theory, it seems always better to stay grounded. theoretically, dash dance should beat everything, and grabs lead to best punishes. however, in neutral, when i try conscientiously try to only dash dance and d tilt, i keep getting hit by overhit nairs and other stuff because my dash dance reaction isn't fast enough.

sometimes, i just autopilot and throw in fairs/nairs seemingly at random mostly cause of gut feelings and I do a lot better. however, these are essentialy purposeless attacks, yet they seem to work better.

i'm just looking for a bit more of a flowchart way to know when to aerial and when to dash dance. is it simply a matter of getting a better dash dance, or are there specific situations where aerialing in neutral is good.
 

net1234

Smash Ace
Joined
May 15, 2013
Messages
738
Location
SLC Utah
in neutral, I dont get when to stay grounded (dash dance/d tilt) and when to jump. (mostly focused on fox)

for me, in theory, it seems always better to stay grounded. theoretically, dash dance should beat everything, and grabs lead to best punishes. however, in neutral, when i try conscientiously try to only dash dance and d tilt, i keep getting hit by overhit nairs and other stuff because my dash dance reaction isn't fast enough.

sometimes, i just autopilot and throw in fairs/nairs seemingly at random mostly cause of gut feelings and I do a lot better. however, these are essentialy purposeless attacks, yet they seem to work better.

i'm just looking for a bit more of a flowchart way to know when to aerial and when to dash dance. is it simply a matter of getting a better dash dance, or are there specific situations where aerialing in neutral is good.
so u are right staying on the ground. i usually only jump if i read an approach, usually a fade back ac nair or fair to stuff it. until decent %s just cc and grab most of what fox throws at you. i would say dont jump unless you have a guaranteed follow up but thats trick so just make sure to never full hop in neutral. jumping is all about reading your opponent and putting one of marths big lagless hitboxes where they wanna be, and being safe with it in case their not where you expect them to be.

im fine with being known for neutral over punishment. my punishment is great so that's saying something imo.

I'll respond to the initial question later.
its been 2 weeks, no pressure but id really like to hear ur thoughts on this
 
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Clebus

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 29, 2013
Messages
203
Location
Tennessee
tbh i talked to m2k about his vs pp's marth and m2k said pp's juggles were better
cuz m2k f throws way too much tbh thats prolly why he loses tbh
just spittin da truuf here tbh
 
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Dr Peepee

Thanks for Everything <3
Moderator
BRoomer
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Sep 29, 2007
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hey guys this is probably a difficult question to answer. when marth gets a grab (on say battlefield) on a fox, does he have the ability to 0-death fox without any reads? if they di properly do they get a chance to up b in a position where they can make it a 50/50? Im just wondering can marth really cover every option? i feel like when i get a grab and my opponent does not end up dead ive made a mistake (which most the time i have). is marths grab a guaranteed kill? this might be more of a mew2king question then a ppmd question but any answer is a good one
depends on where the grab happened and how good the DI is. you can minimize reads a TON with combos in this matchup though. suffice to say that it's a good way of looking at it that marth virtually can do it.
 

Big Daddy Josh

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 17, 2014
Messages
76
http://youtu.be/0OS8x6RP7SY?t=11m22s
@ Dr Peepee Dr Peepee in your interview at S@X located in the link above^ you mentioned Marths coming down with a Fair as they're falling back to the stage. I'm guilty of doing this myself, and I want to break this habit, but I'm curious on what are some better options to do instead?

I know you can just land and react accordingly(dash dance, grab, spot dodge, shield). Come down with a counter instead? assuming they are going to hit you. Waveland? Air Dodge? I'm sure they all have their uses and depend on the situation but I'd love to hear some insight from you or @Umbreon
 

Dr Peepee

Thanks for Everything <3
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BRoomer
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you can just NOT do the fair then react with jab/dash back lol. you have way less lag then and they're still respecting fair which is just really convenient for marth
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
i would waveland personally, the grab on the landing lag is never really designed to handle a change on position because of the landing lag, so if they have the same habit to grab as most marths do to fair, you can just grab them right back and do marth things.

kevin your beard in that video actually ate me at my laptop. send help
 

Big Daddy Josh

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 17, 2014
Messages
76
i would waveland personally, the grab on the landing lag is never really designed to handle a change on position because of the landing lag, so if they have the same habit to grab as most marths do to fair, you can just grab them right back and do marth things.

kevin your beard in that video actually ate me at my laptop. send help
That's what I think i might opt for. It seems like the best option until they start catching on I guess, then I can just fair again lol.
 

ChivalRuse

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
8,413
Location
College Park, MD
Empty land -> dash through will usually catch people trying to run up and shield grab your fair, whereas wavelanding back is pretty good vs those attempting to grab your landing lag from fair.

Spacies may even try to dash attack past you when you land to preempt a dash dance. If that's in their repertoire, you will want to position yourself somewhere besides where they expect you to land but also probably shield the dash attack or dash dance cryptically around it if you have the frames to do so. It's important to occasionally throw out a retreating fair to keep them honest.
 

Big Daddy Josh

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 17, 2014
Messages
76
depends on matchup partly. vs sheik dash back is probably fine. vs fox you may want more space so waveland is cool. just kinda dependz
I would like to find some footage of you doing this. I may just have to go through your videos and specifically look for these scenarios. Unless you have a gameplay off the top of your head that you could suggest.
 
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