Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[linkoninja]

I went to a tournament a few weeks ago and I was proud to get 5th because dealing with tournament nerves has been difficult for me. I was surprised to find that I beat players when I wasn't completely familiar the matchups. (Samus and Ganon) but I lost two Marth dittos which I consider my most familiar matchup. Any tips in the matchup? I know generally whoever does something first is at a disadvantage. I feel a lot of it was due to nerves but one of the marth's I felt was slightly better than me.

Some things that kept happening to me.
I kept getting forward throw chain thrown into F-smash due to missed techs and bad di. I'm guessing I should DI down and away or down and up.
I was having trouble getting back on stage from the ledge.
I just felt like the other players had a better neutral game than me. The matches weren't free going 2-1 and even then last stock but I couldn't clutch it out.

 

[townes]

Just hold (DI) the opposite direction you are getting forward thrown and fsmash or regrab will never connect. DI away essentially. Marth does have trouble getting back from the ledge, so you have to realize what options you have and then figure out which is the right one for your opponent: WD on, LH fair, LH nair, LH uair, LH dair, perfect land to stuff, WD on to stuff, roll, neutral get up, tournament winner. The other marth can't cover all of those options, but chances are he was covering most of them and you chose the wrong one. If he's looking for dtilts, certain options work, but if he's looking for WD back fsmash and grab on reaction, different options work. In neutral dash dance grab, dtilt, and do tricky dash dance wavedash ppmd stuff. The neutral game in the ditto shouldn't be that bad. If nothings working just do exactly what they do. A lot of the time, if their DD game is on point, you need to be putting a grab or a dtilt much farther past where you think they're going to be because they will be dash dancing to avoid that exact option. Basically attack past them.

 

[Socrates]

How do you edgeguard:

-Mario/Doc
-Samus
-Jigglypuff

 

[net1234]

How do you edgeguard:

-Mario/Doc
-Samus
-Jigglypuff

Im pretty sure u can marth killer doc and Mario if u ff it. With samus I really like to go offstage and just keep myself between the stage and her to pressure her to go low. I like to WD off with a back air at that point and If u get hit by her zair when she Grapples the stage it turns u around towards her and you can reverse dolphin slash her. I dont think u can really edgegaurd puff that well its usually kind of a given that she will get back. I use it as more of an opportunity to pin her to the edge and rack up some % with fairs and ftilts n stuff\

edit: u can marth killer luigi not mario sorry

 

[townes]

You should watch pewpewu vs shroomed to see how to edgeguard doc. You CANNOT marth killer doc or mario. That doesn't work and is dumb. You need to learn samus recovery to edgeguard her properly. If you don't understand her DJ, bomb jumps, grapple sweetspot, and upB, you're in for a bad time. If you're confident you can go out and hit samus, but realize that that is extremely risky and if done wrong, you're gunna get reverse edgeguarded by a good samus who saves her DJ. Don't edgeguard puff. If puff recovers like an idiot, go get a free fair. If puff is below the stage being dumb, you can get some cheese dtilts if they suck. Do not go deep offstage against puff.

 

[Ozai Firelord]

Can someone please give me some tips on approach. I know his fair is pretty good but what else?

 

[townes]

Marth isn't a very approach driven character. He's not like spacies who can aerial shine with impunity so long as they connect with a shield. With marth you should be thinking DD grab and DD dtilt. I'm not saying never approach, but waiting to see what your opponent is doing and reacting will often be far better than running in with a nair or YOLO SHDF's at your opponent.

 

[net1234]

Can someone please give me some tips on approach. I know his fair is pretty good but what else?

stickywalk->boostgrab. works 100% of the time

 

[townes]

Does boost grabbing out of a stickywalk have some kinda different range or visual effect than dash grabbing out of a stickywalk because I know that dash grab and boost grab with marth are virtually the same in every aspect? O nvmd you're totally right because you'd dash grab the slow dash from the sticky walk and the boost grab would give you that normal sized boost from the dash attack. Lol. I like to do the WD back dash forward, wait a second, and then dash forward again. I thin it's called a cactus dash or something around these parts.

 

[net1234]

Does boost grabbing out of a stickywalk have some kinda different range or visual effect than dash grabbing out of a stickywalk because I know that dash grab and boost grab with marth are virtually the same in every aspect? O nvmd you're totally right because you'd dash grab the slow dash from the sticky walk and the boost grab would give you that normal sized boost from the dash attack. Lol. I like to do the WD back dash forward, wait a second, and then dash forward again. I thin it's called a cactus dash or something around these parts.

yeah dude it gets people every time lol its so unexpected. marth can do a lot of crazy stuff with his dd cuz hes so slippery and make his approach super funky looking.

@ Ozai Firelord i would watch approaching with fair cuz at low % anyone good will cc and grab u if its not spaced well and thats terrible as a marth, i really just like to throw out grabs cuz its pretty hard to punish and the reward on a fast faller is pretty much a stock. wd downtilt ( or i guess pivot dtilt if ur ridiculously godlike) its a great option because ist an annoying 7% and like it makes them feel pressured from a hit. u can get a grab off a dtilt a lot if u read a spotdodge or they have terrible di. its kinda like a falco laser cuz it has no real guaranteed followup but puts ur opponent in a sorta 50/50 stance where ul either dash away or grab and it has good range and helps with stage control. im not sure how good this advice is im still probably a scrub maybe PP could tell u something better. a good rule is just dont approach unless ur down and just dd grab everything and mask ur camping behind **** talk and hard punishes lol

running up with shield is pretty good too in moderation

 

[Ozai Firelord]

Okay thanks I'm kind of a scrub myself so it helps to hear that stuff.

I have another pretty basic question, what are the best ways to deal with real floaty characters? Is there any throw chain that works well, like maybe a forward throw chain?

 

[net1234]

Okay thanks I'm kind of a scrub myself so it helps to hear that stuff.

I have another pretty basic question, what are the best ways to deal with real floaty characters? Is there any throw chain that works well, like maybe a forward throw chain?

sometimes u can fthrow->pivot fsmash puffs/peaches on bad di. there are actually garunteed kill options on fthrow on a puff but their tricky and require near frame perfect execution. i would to to kadanos frame perfect marth forum for that kinda stuff. generally with floaties i like to just up throw and try to read a jump or something. keep them up in the air with shffl uairs and uptilts.

 

[Deleted member]

beat, good **** at beast 5

 

[Bones0]

I want to see the vids so bad god damnit.

 

[Beat!]

beat, good **** at beast 5

But I lost.

Thanks, though.

Played an off stream serious bo5 vs Amsah after my loss to Android. Won 3-1. Normally I would've felt extremely happy about it but now it just added insult to injury since I would've faced Amsah in top 8.

I want to see the vids so bad god damnit.

There were a lot of hype sets but most bracket matches weren't recorded due to smash 4 and pm taking up so much stream time.

 

[Bones0]

You can't spell Beast without Beat!

 

[RaphaelRobo]

There's this really good Falco player in my town who likes to play Marth against me in friendlies. His Marth is really really good though, so I always lose to him. Dr. PPMD can you give me cactuar's advice on how to beat this Marth?

 

[SleepyK]

ppmd why do you never help raphaelrobo with this particular player he's having trouble with? he's been asking me for help against the particular player for a quite some time.

 

[Tarv]

Wondering about a specific situation during The Moon vs Hax at Justice 4.

The Moon uthrows. Hax DI's left and then techs left on the platform. No surprises so far. The Moon attempts a follow-up on the platform but shields. First off, I'm guessing he was going for a grab here? Or maybe he was worried about getting shined? Regardless, If the Moon would have SH Fair'd in a way that marth was underneath about the middle of the platform would that have been a better option than the platform follow-up grab attempt? What was the best option in the situation for The Moon?

Thanks!

 

[Bones0]

Wondering about a specific situation during The Moon vs Hax at Justice 4.

The Moon uthrows. Hax DI's left and then techs left on the platform. No surprises so far. The Moon attempts a follow-up on the platform but shields. First off, I'm guessing he was going for a grab here? Or maybe he was worried about getting shined? Regardless, If the Moon would have SH Fair'd in a way that marth was underneath about the middle of the platform would that have been a better option than the platform follow-up grab attempt? What was the best option in the situation for The Moon?

Thanks!

It looks like he pressed Z to grab, but he was still in his WD landing lag so he lightshielded instead. Then he tried to repress Z and naired. I'm pretty sure he could have SHed towards the center of the platform to cover all of the tech options with uair. It's hard to tell what would happen from there because Hax was at a low enough percent he could have CCed, but you still have Fox stuck on the plat. He also could have just WLed a little more smoothly and gotten the grab.

 

[Tarv]

Hmm, interesting. Thanks for the reply Bones

Do you think that getting the utilt trap would've been preferred to getting the grab even if Hax had CC'd? I think going up on the platform at all was a mistake, just seems like an unnecessary risky position to set up a much more difficult kill.

I'm liking discussing really specific interactions like this. Perhaps I should bother y'all more often with them

 

[Bones0]

Hmm, interesting. Thanks for the reply Bones

Do you think that getting the utilt trap would've been preferred to getting the grab even if Hax had CC'd? I think going up on the platform at all was a mistake, just seems like an unnecessary risky position to set up a much more difficult kill.

I'm liking discussing really specific interactions like this. Perhaps I should bother y'all more often with them

I think getting the grab on the plat is optimal because you get guaranteed damage once you're set up. Their best option at that point is to try to DI to the top plat, but doing so risks fthrow->fsmash on the DI in, and after 1-2 more throws, he would have been able to utilt the DI in to pull him back away from the top plat before he lands.

 

[Tarv]

Hmm, good points good points.

Watching this set I'm still mad that moon SD game 5 last stock

 

[Dr Peepee]

ppmd why do you never help raphaelrobo with this particular player he's having trouble with? he's been asking me for help against the particular player for a quite some time.

i drank 3 beers and tbh no to both of you

#godlike

 

[RaphaelRobo]

• 
  Kevin Nanney
  im going to respond to this after apex maybe
  
  put it on the mental tab
  

Wow Kevin you're such a liar

 

[Clebus]

Hey can I get some help with the pichu matchup? Got beaten handily by one recently. Specifically neutral and recovering.

In neutral I feel like i can't DD and get a grab on a missed aerial simply because of pichu's low landing lag. I guess cc fsmash might work but I'm not really sure about anything.

Secondly I have a hard time recovering. My up b is almost useless it seems, since if I go for the ledge I just get marth killer'd (maybe I just can't sweetspot) and if I try to land on the stage the pichu can just jump OoS (or off the ledge if I hit his shield) and reverse nair me before I recover from my landing lag. Tips?

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Dr. PPMD, this Marth player I'm struggling with pulled out his fox today and bodied me. Can you give me some tips on how to beat said fox?

 

[Diya]

in neutral, I dont get when to stay grounded (dash dance/d tilt) and when to jump. (mostly focused on fox)

for me, in theory, it seems always better to stay grounded. theoretically, dash dance should beat everything, and grabs lead to best punishes. however, in neutral, when i try conscientiously try to only dash dance and d tilt, i keep getting hit by overhit nairs and other stuff because my dash dance reaction isn't fast enough.

sometimes, i just autopilot and throw in fairs/nairs seemingly at random mostly cause of gut feelings and I do a lot better. however, these are essentialy purposeless attacks, yet they seem to work better.

i'm just looking for a bit more of a flowchart way to know when to aerial and when to dash dance. is it simply a matter of getting a better dash dance, or are there specific situations where aerialing in neutral is good.

 

[net1234]

in neutral, I dont get when to stay grounded (dash dance/d tilt) and when to jump. (mostly focused on fox)

for me, in theory, it seems always better to stay grounded. theoretically, dash dance should beat everything, and grabs lead to best punishes. however, in neutral, when i try conscientiously try to only dash dance and d tilt, i keep getting hit by overhit nairs and other stuff because my dash dance reaction isn't fast enough.

sometimes, i just autopilot and throw in fairs/nairs seemingly at random mostly cause of gut feelings and I do a lot better. however, these are essentialy purposeless attacks, yet they seem to work better.

i'm just looking for a bit more of a flowchart way to know when to aerial and when to dash dance. is it simply a matter of getting a better dash dance, or are there specific situations where aerialing in neutral is good.

so u are right staying on the ground. i usually only jump if i read an approach, usually a fade back ac nair or fair to stuff it. until decent %s just cc and grab most of what fox throws at you. i would say dont jump unless you have a guaranteed follow up but thats trick so just make sure to never full hop in neutral. jumping is all about reading your opponent and putting one of marths big lagless hitboxes where they wanna be, and being safe with it in case their not where you expect them to be.

im fine with being known for neutral over punishment. my punishment is great so that's saying something imo.

I'll respond to the initial question later.

its been 2 weeks, no pressure but id really like to hear ur thoughts on this

 

[Clebus]

tbh i talked to m2k about his vs pp's marth and m2k said pp's juggles were better
cuz m2k f throws way too much tbh thats prolly why he loses tbh
just spittin da truuf here tbh

 

[Dr Peepee]

hey guys this is probably a difficult question to answer. when marth gets a grab (on say battlefield) on a fox, does he have the ability to 0-death fox without any reads? if they di properly do they get a chance to up b in a position where they can make it a 50/50? Im just wondering can marth really cover every option? i feel like when i get a grab and my opponent does not end up dead ive made a mistake (which most the time i have). is marths grab a guaranteed kill? this might be more of a mew2king question then a ppmd question but any answer is a good one

depends on where the grab happened and how good the DI is. you can minimize reads a TON with combos in this matchup though. suffice to say that it's a good way of looking at it that marth virtually can do it.

 

[Big Daddy Josh]

http://youtu.be/0OS8x6RP7SY?t=11m22s
@ Dr Peepee in your interview at S@X located in the link above^ you mentioned Marths coming down with a Fair as they're falling back to the stage. I'm guilty of doing this myself, and I want to break this habit, but I'm curious on what are some better options to do instead?

I know you can just land and react accordingly(dash dance, grab, spot dodge, shield). Come down with a counter instead? assuming they are going to hit you. Waveland? Air Dodge? I'm sure they all have their uses and depend on the situation but I'd love to hear some insight from you or @Umbreon

 

[Dr Peepee]

you can just NOT do the fair then react with jab/dash back lol. you have way less lag then and they're still respecting fair which is just really convenient for marth

 

[Deleted member]

i would waveland personally, the grab on the landing lag is never really designed to handle a change on position because of the landing lag, so if they have the same habit to grab as most marths do to fair, you can just grab them right back and do marth things.

kevin your beard in that video actually ate me at my laptop. send help

 

[Big Daddy Josh]

i would waveland personally, the grab on the landing lag is never really designed to handle a change on position because of the landing lag, so if they have the same habit to grab as most marths do to fair, you can just grab them right back and do marth things.

kevin your beard in that video actually ate me at my laptop. send help

That's what I think i might opt for. It seems like the best option until they start catching on I guess, then I can just fair again lol.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Empty land -> dash through will usually catch people trying to run up and shield grab your fair, whereas wavelanding back is pretty good vs those attempting to grab your landing lag from fair.

Spacies may even try to dash attack past you when you land to preempt a dash dance. If that's in their repertoire, you will want to position yourself somewhere besides where they expect you to land but also probably shield the dash attack or dash dance cryptically around it if you have the frames to do so. It's important to occasionally throw out a retreating fair to keep them honest.

 

[Dr Peepee]

depends on matchup partly. vs sheik dash back is probably fine. vs fox you may want more space so waveland is cool. just kinda dependz

 

[Big Daddy Josh]

depends on matchup partly. vs sheik dash back is probably fine. vs fox you may want more space so waveland is cool. just kinda dependz

I would like to find some footage of you doing this. I may just have to go through your videos and specifically look for these scenarios. Unless you have a gameplay off the top of your head that you could suggest.

 

[ChivalRuse]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kREm4Bsw58M
You can probably find the Sheik stuff here.

 

[Dr Peepee]

not sure if that exact type of thing comes up as much vs fox but if i see something like that in the next few days ill link it here