Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[townes]

I'm back. Didn't get to play my good falcon buddy, but I spent some time practicing dthrow tech chasing 20XX falcon on FD and when I played yesterday I bodied my two decent falcon friends relentlessly. I was DIing downthrow so effectively that they started going for uthrow uair and no follow up. I also worked on my DD WD dtilt game which I think helped especially when I played their my dude's sheik. Is dancing blade good in the falcon MU? I was using it heavily yesterday to stuff approaches and as a mixup and it was working pretty well.

 

[Bones0]

I'm back. Didn't get to play my good falcon buddy, but I spent some time practicing dthrow tech chasing 20XX falcon on FD and when I played yesterday I bodied my two decent falcon friends relentlessly. I was DIing downthrow so effectively that they started going for uthrow uair and no follow up. I also worked on my DD WD dtilt game which I think helped especially when I played their my dude's sheik. Is dancing blade good in the falcon MU? I was using it heavily yesterday to stuff approaches and as a mixup and it was working pretty well.

DB is pretty solid vs. airborne opponents (a Falcon approaching you, floaty trying to get back on the ground, etc.), but it is CCed relatively easily so if the opponent is on the ground, you are at risk of them getting their shield up and you are punishable between hits. The one exception I have is for techchasing spacies at high %s when they can't easily CC.

 

[Clebus]

That's the only way of course.
Thanks

 

[Meru]

You just have to be careful using DB and making sure you hit with the tip, so that you don't trade with knees or nairs. Other than that, it's great because you can use it during run.

 

[Espi]

How do you guys use dancing blade (side B) offensively? I haven't been using it at all, and I want to experiment with other stuff.

 

[townes]

I think DB is good on fast fallers who don't know what to do against it or as a mixup. On floaties sideB to uptilt is good. Otherwise I would probably just watch Ken and see the exact situations when he uses it. I don't think its one of marth's best moves though. Now time for my question!

The 20XX hack pack. I have it and I use it to train. That being said I think that the hack pack would be most useful for space animals. I find it hard to do anything exceptionally helpful with it with marth. I use it for things like tech chasing random DI and tec falcon on FD, chaingrabbing random DI spacies, L cancel flashes red, and infinite shield fair dtilt SHDF dtilt marth shield pressure practice. Are any of you high level marths using the hack pack for intense solo training. I think playing good players is the best way to train, but for the days when I'm alone what should I use it for. I've read lots of posts about solo practice, but I have NEVER seen a marth specific 20XX hack pack training thread/post/or anything. Anyone hack pack era marths out there practicing solo?

 

[Espi]

Ken definitely uses it well, but he gets punished a lot for it. I think he just uses it too much. I'll just use it as a mix up

 

[Clebus]

PPU be using it a bit lately to decent effect.

 

[townes]

PPU be using it a bit lately to decent effect.

What has he been doing with it with marth?

 

[Clebus]

Hard to say haha. I think he used it against SFAT at a recent tournament (although sfat won). Maybe a lil bit of shield pressure or something. He doesn't use it much though.

 

[SpiderMad]

@ Dr Peepee You ever use SH Fair Nair, SH Fair Bair, or SH Fair Dair, and for what uses?

 

[Dr Peepee]

You mean both in one SH? Currently I don't do any of those. I think SH Fair Dair can shield stab though which is kinda neat.

 

[tonic]

PP, what's your opinion on shield stops with marth? PPU relies on it extensively in his neutral game, at least in his recent sets. I'd link you but as this is only my second post smashboards won't let me. You can watch basically any recent video and find many examples. What of it's applications to movement, and why you don't use this technique?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I think it has some uses because you don't want to slide but you also don't want to commit to WD down lag. I personally don't prefer it since I think I can stop myself well enough using dashes/WDs/SHs. Plus any time I would get hit out of a shield stop I could be messed up since Marth does not prefer to be shielding or having his shield hit. Sometimes it would be more preferable to be knicked by a move out of my movement instead. I also don't really like OOS options in general and like being able to walk/dash.

Still, I can't deny it is a visual cue many like approaching to punish as well as a great stop at times since Marth slides a fair bit. It is worth exploring if you find it interesting I would say.

 

[tonic]

I did forget to mention that his main purpose PPU uses it is so he can completely stop his momentum and do a well-spaced rising aerial OOS, because jumping out of a dash transfers to aerial momentum and you run the risk of using a mis-spaced aerial. Oftentimes his shield is up for only 1 or 2 frames and you can barely see the flash of it before he jumps and aerials. Because of this it's rare that he actually gets punished in his shield, although he can be hit out of his jump is he mis-spaces. I know PPU prefers reactive, somewhat stationary aerial options against his opponents, whereas you tend to prefer grounded movement options, so I understand your viewpoint on it.

 

[townes]

I'm having some trouble with the marth ditto. Against Marths who stay grounded and dtilt, DD, and grab, I do great. But against Marths who jump in the air in neutral, I have trouble. He literally FHs waits for me to approach, if I don't he DJs and he uses sideBs. Whenever I come on he fairs or dairs. It's the most dumb strategy ever imo, but I have trouble in MUs when people play the MU not according to the rules I read about. I have trouble dealing with chaotic players. How can I destroy this marth who jumps a lot?

 

[Bones0]

I'm having some trouble with the marth ditto. Against Marths who stay grounded and dtilt, DD, and grab, I do great. But against Marths who jump in the air in neutral, I have trouble. He literally FHs waits for me to approach, if I don't he DJs and he uses sideBs. Whenever I come on he fairs or dairs. It's the most dumb strategy ever imo, but I have trouble in MUs when people play the MU not according to the rules I read about. I have trouble dealing with chaotic players. How can I destroy this marth who jumps a lot?

If he FHs, you can just run under him on reaction and uair/fair. If he's just fairing on reaction, then you are telegraphing your approach way too much. DD in and out so he can't tell when you're going to approach. If he whiffs a fair when you dash back, you can dash back in and grab him as he lands. You can also just dash attack or tipper his landing, but those can be a bit riskier.

 

[Clebus]

Also if he dairs you, you'll probly be able to punish if you tech in place unless he DJ -> immediately daired.

 

[Hunybear]

How do i get the most mileage out of my punishes. Especially against falco.

 

[Dr Peepee]

CG him, put him on a side platform and tipper Uair him if his percent is above like 25% after the throw(adjust percent based on stage and your position when you throw.) Above like 50 or so percent after throw you can mixup between Fair and Fsmash a lot of the time, and tipper vs untippered Fair. Then you have what m2k has been popularizing as Uthrow up-B to further mixup vs Fair DI.

If you throw him offstage Dtilt is usually pretty helpful. You can figure this part out watching M2K edgeguard usually lol.

Basically, learn your throw punishes if you want to hit hard.

 

[Clebus]

Could you elaborate on what you mean by uthrow up-b?? does that combo? lool

 

[Hunybear]

lol ^_^ It's actually really cool at high percents if u tipper it! I just tried it myself.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Could you elaborate on what you mean by uthrow up-b?? does that combo? lool

You have to FH/DJ first but yeah it can.

 

[LL87]

Hi. Can I do anything to dk after a uthrow ? I'm testing stuff on the 20xx, but the cpu does not always jump out of hitsun, therefore I'm pretty unsure about the follow ups. It seems uthrow utilt works at around 50, but idk really.

 

[Bones0]

Hi. Can I do anything to dk after a uthrow ? I'm testing stuff on the 20xx, but the cpu does not always jump out of hitsun, therefore I'm pretty unsure about the follow ups. It seems uthrow utilt works at around 50, but idk really.

Training Mode

 

[Dr Peepee]

No idea. I find Fthrow regrabbing DK to be pretty easy though, and throwing him offstage into gimping is also not terribly difficult iirc.

 

[Espi]

Why aren't more Marth's using pivot F-smashes? I see ARC doing it all the time, especially against floaties.
For example, your opponent is on a platform but you're not quite in the position to tipper. So you empty pivot and wait or pivot F-smash, depending on the situation of course.
Thought's?

 

[Bones0]

Why aren't more Marth's using pivot F-smashes? I see ARC doing it all the time, especially against floaties.
For example, your opponent is on a platform but you're not quite in the position to tipper. So you empty pivot and wait or pivot F-smash, depending on the situation of course.
Thought's?

Laziness.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Because I don't know

 

[Espi]

I replaced my OG analog with a Wii Nunchuck analog, and my consistency with pivots has skyrocketed. Takes a little getting used to though.

 

[Big Daddy Josh]

@ Dr Peepee I read your post about practicing alone, and the bit about "shadowboxing" was really interesting. I know what it is, since I used to take kickboxing, but I'm having trouble applying it to melee. I know to pretend like I'm playing a person, but even with the 20xx hack pack, the cpus don't punish like a person would. I was wondering if you had any videos showing how you use it, or can elaborate more on it's usefulness with Marth?

 

[Dr Peepee]

It can often be better that there is no CPU there at all if you have a vivid enough imagination in my experience.

If you end up using one, just take a level 7-9(start low then go high) and try to move such that you're always just in and out of its range so you don't get hit. Then you can move to attacking and counterattacking from that range.

 

[Big Daddy Josh]

Thank you for your reply. I will implement that into my training regiment, and see how it goes.

 

[Deleted member]

Why aren't more Marth's using pivot F-smashes? I see ARC doing it all the time, especially against floaties.
For example, your opponent is on a platform but you're not quite in the position to tipper. So you empty pivot and wait or pivot F-smash, depending on the situation of course.
Thought's?

when it doesn't kill, it forces you to use more time commitment, which means your opponent will reset to neutral more often. we use aerials because they allow autocancels, L cancels, wavelands, and other ways to cheat their lag to make them "faster" and easier to hold offensive momentum once you have it. ground moves are pretty much limited to moves with IASAs and raw low lag like dtilt and uptilt respectively. getting the opponent off-stage quickly is excellent if you're just looking for freebies in teams where holding positional advantage is much less definite, but in singles you can afford to go out of your way to optimize your punishes.

for kill options it gets much better but it's a hard technique to do and most people simply don't practice that skill. in general i often advocate against learning very specific tech like that because it forms all kinds of bad habits and turns the technique into a net-negative for the player. there are counterexamples to this, but they are often the exception and not the norm.

also hi guys

 

[Dr Peepee]

I agree that in the instance described it is not such a good technique always and I'm glad you pointed that out.

This is actually pretty easy to do though LOL it's just some practice that should be done. It takes SEVERAL steps out of the killing process when practiced and you can even react partially with your dash to determine when you even need to do the pivot to kill. I do not find this technique ineffective unless used as a crutch in neutral as well since punishes often you can familiarize yourself with percents and situations stemming from those.

Hi.

 

[CeLL]

Is there anywhere describing how to follow up uthrows on spacies at various percents and with various DI, or should I just watch a lot of M2K (uthrowing spacies) and analyze what he does? (Not that M2K necessarily does it best, but there are a LOT of M2K Marth videos)

 

[Purpletuce]

Yes, you can find several with minimal effort.

http://smashboards.com/threads/detailled-chaingrab-information.323364/

 

[Deleted member]

This is actually pretty easy to do though LOL it's just some practice that should be done.

We're not all as cool as you Mr. Look_At_My_APEX_Controller_I_Wear_The_American_Flag_When_I_Want_A_Sponsorship

"Why don't bad players just play good?" - PPMD

Why don't you just get off your ego-tripping high horse for once?

lmao i cant even type this with a straight face

yea real talk using it as a kill option out of a reliable conversion (grab) seems pretty good, assuming the DI window is reasonable.

 

[Dr Peepee]

You can also apparently set this up out of Fair and Dtilt pretty reliably.

We have so much work to do on killing optimization as a character =p

Also LOL yeah pretty true quote by me.

 

[Big Daddy Josh]

@ Dr Peepee I had one more question since you pretty much dual main both characters(Falco & Marth).
When I(Marth) am being pillared by a Falco I usually have a hard time getting out or just away. I notice even top players have a hard time as well but not nearly as bad as I do. I normally just DI away and try to tech and hope for the best. Should I be trying to smash DI Falcos hits instead?(the shine & the dair, etc) Or are there any tricks you use to help escape?