Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Bones0]

What is the best way to ledge tech? I've been doing wall jump -> bair

 

[CeLL]

I know how to ledge tech. Is bair always the best followup as Marth specifically, though? Nothing like airdodge on stage or don't jump -> DS again? I guess I phrased my question poorly.

 

[Bones0]

I know how to ledge tech. Is bair always the best followup as Marth specifically, though? Nothing like airdodge on stage or don't jump -> DS again? I guess I phrased my question poorly.

Oh, sorry. I just figured you wanted a more reliable way to get the walltechjump bair.

Pretty much everything in Melee has an alternative that is better in some situations. You just have to decide for yourself because there's too many nuances for someone to properly say "bair in situation A, but airdodge in situation B, and do X in situation C".

 

[Kadano]

I know how to ledge tech. Is bair always the best followup as Marth specifically, though? Nothing like airdodge on stage or don't jump -> DS again? I guess I phrased my question poorly.

You always want to do passivewalljump to bair when recovering as the default option. Fast fall to up-B takes way too long to ever be better, and airdodging from PWJ puts you at a far greater disadvantage than bair does.

If your bair ever gets punished, even though executed well, you can think about using other options instead. But before that happens, you should simply stick with PWJ bair.

 

[Bones0]

You always want to do passivewalljump to bair when recovering. Fast fall to up-B takes way too long to ever be better, and airdodging from PWJ puts you at a far greater disadvantage than bair does.

If the opponent is just holding shield in anticipation of the walltechjump bair (assuming the attack you are teching ends quick enough for the opponent to do so), it'd be a better idea to just airdodge through them and get hit by an OoS option towards center stage. There might also be a scenario where an opponent attacks you from off stage and it'd be preferable to dair to spike them or up-B to KO them off the side. Hence why I dislike saying "always" in Melee...

 

[Kadano]

You’re right about “always”, but I still think every Marth should default to PWJ bair and only do other options when his opponent develops a counter against it (that can be beat by other options). Airdodging in that situation is pretty much offering a free hit, while punishing the bair is really hard for the opponent most of the time.

 

[Bones0]

You’re right about “always”, but I still think every Marth should default to PWJ bair and only do other options when his opponent develops a counter against it (that can be beat by other options). Airdodging in that situation is pretty much offering a free hit, while punishing the bair is really hard for the opponent most of the time.

Agreed.

 

[AceDudeyeah]

Anyone remember a combo video series started here in the Marth boards where the organizer asked Marth mains from everywhere to submit clips of their own combos and he compiled them into combo videos with epic instrumental music in the background?

Have those been taken down from youtube?

 

[Tee ay eye]

http://www.meleeitonme.com/sharpening-your-sword-tais-marth-guide/

Anyone remember a combo video series started here in the Marth boards where the organizer asked Marth mains from everywhere to submit clips of their own combos and he compiled them into combo videos with epic instrumental music in the background?

Have those been taken down from youtube?

hmmm i remember that

i dont remember what it was called, but i do remember that Archangel Pit made it

he used to go by a different name, but i don't remember what it was

@ Tee ay eye : dat double post

 

[Beat!]

he used to go by a different name, but i don't remember what it was

That would be spam_arrows.

Awesome guide, by the way!

 

[Kadano]

Hey @ Dr Peepee

I just wanted to say

It sure is boring without you.

Also, I just realized that your mindset is not only inspiring, but the mindset all players should aspire to in my opinion. You seem like you are having fun without making that dependent on your win, learning and being curious about what you can improve in your play at the same time. I hope that I can be like that too.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Ah Kadano, as someone who's work I greatly respect and appreciate I am very happy to hear that from you. If you ever wish to discuss mindset or some other internal factors then I would happily trade such discussion for more of your own knowledge.

I'll be posting more when I can or feel up to it I haven't forgotten about the great community out here.

Thank you.

 

[Mr. Bean]

hmmm i remember that

i dont remember what it was called, but i do remember that Archangel Pit made it

he used to go by a different name, but i don't remember what it was

That's my boy Archangel! Fellow Delaware smasher. we play all the time.

 

[solracels]

Hi everyone, I've been playing against a fox main and i always have trouble zoning him out abd i feel like i keep my distabce or i will get rekt by lazurs, how can i fight against a fox, is there any atack that sort of counters him?

 

[DJ _ICE]

Space where he can't easily laser without you coming in. Or chase him until he's cornered, you'll get lasered, but don't get flustered, that's what Fox wants. Some percent on you is worth having him at the edge ready to die

 

[BTmoney]

pp made a post here many months ago that made my marth a lot better
1. dash dance, look for a grab. This is usually my #1 approach dash dance and mix it up until I can get a grab
2. If I feel like I can't get the grab, poke at them out of their DD or running/approach with dtilt
3. boom now your dash is more threatening and they are conditioned to shield more
4. get more grabs

the rest is basically not dropping your punishes and that's really how I play marth. Doesn't matter if it's Fox or Samus I have the same general strategy +/- more d tilts which is so good now that I figured out how to use it

But I'm a 0/10 vs Falco. Anyone have advice on that? The way he controls neutral and stops your DD is so obnoxious and hard to deal with. I find it impossible to win vs people content with laser camping. Marth's arial approaches aren't that good and don't stay out long enough to cover him so It's easy to laser him until he wants to move (or runs out of stage) then back up so any jump->action won't hit you, the falco.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Shield. I have tried a variety of methods and getting power shield is literally the only defense Marth has against Falco. There are a variety of other "tricks" Marth can use, but shield is really the best method. Even without a power shield you can still be successful by simply blocking a few lasers and keeping your momentum through WD away or towards Falco after blocking lasers.

If your opponent is trying to react to your shield shenanigans they have an extra delay time before responding. Therefore, despite laser on shield being bad for you along with WD time from shield it still works at moving around.

The biggest thing is that Falco is literally no different for Marth than any other character. His SH laser has a quite a bit of lag on it. Quoting the bone thread he can only do lasers every 16 frames. With most of that being start-up. Look at your opponent the whole match. When you see him SH, then you get prepared to shield. When you see that flash of red or movement or sound you have your cues.

The only thing that is really disorienting is when the falco decides to mess with me by going for intentionally missed lasers by getting the start up animation and sound, but not the actual laser. Darn it frootloop.

 

[Mr. Bean]

Falco is pretty hard to deal with. light shields and power shields are nice. I can't say I'm an expert because i don't play enough good falcos. but that's what I like doing.

 

[RFN]

practicing powershielding is of course one of the best ways. Falco will often slightly try to readjust their gameplan when one of their best tools is used against them. If you find yourself out of rhythm or unable to do it consistently during a pressure situation, wavedashing forward and backward as well as in and out of shield will keep you safe. Getting closer is particularly helpful as close lasers aren't so safe.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I don't believe in the powershield deities. I believe in take laser to jab. Falco can't shoot that close and Marth has way more freedom than you think after lasers so jab is great at stuffing lots of his approaches/movement. If you're really worried you can SDI the laser away lol.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I don't believe in the powershield deities. I believe in take laser to jab. Falco can't shoot that close and Marth has way more freedom than you think after lasers so jab is great at stuffing lots of his approaches/movement. If you're really worried you can SDI the laser away lol.

I am not certain how prevalent this would be to tank into the choice of jab. I can see tank into some other movement option or perhaps tank a laser while in short hop.

Short hop is fairly decent since you can swing right after being hit. Upon success you get a good conversion. Upon whiffing you have a small enough lag that you can attempt to rectify your situation with a dash back. If good enough you might simply get falco caught in shield at the tip of your fair. Upon trading with Fair its has preferable knockback compared to tipper jab. Falco will take longer to recover from a trade off fair than tipper.

Jab simply has much lag upon a miss. Or worse it can not get enough knock-back to cover its ending lag. Upon trades Falco's Nair/Dair/Bair would be more preferable to simply getting jabbed at close percentages. I can see attempting this at higher percents, but not for say below 60% or so.

While powershielding is hard to be consistent at I am not sure how feasible it would be rule it out completely. It seems the most ideal option to choose.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I also like PS and take laser into dash/WD but I don't think PS is the end all be all people make it out to be. Falco can make it pretty hard to PS and if you just use more sword then it really throws off falco way more. Falco can jump over a PS laser or trip a PS attempt up but even if he hits a laser at any decent spacing he has to deal with a strong jab vs move mixup. I've been trying it a lot and it gives Marth a lot of control but he just can't play like he's used to with lots of DD and Dtilt. It's a more staggered movement style and jabs and Ftilts and such imo.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I also like PS and take laser into dash/WD but I don't think PS is the end all be all people make it out to be. Falco can make it pretty hard to PS and if you just use more sword then it really throws off falco way more. Falco can jump over a PS laser or trip a PS attempt up but even if he hits a laser at any decent spacing he has to deal with a strong jab vs move mixup. I've been trying it a lot and it gives Marth a lot of control but he just can't play like he's used to with lots of DD and Dtilt. It's a more staggered movement style and jabs and Ftilts and such imo.

Would you agree with the idea that there will be best courses of actions, but no single thing should be relied upon. It is by combining many different alternatives to a main strategy that your methods become very effective.

PS and DD will be effective. However, by itself they are not enough.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I think PS isn't better than the options I listed but overall yeah combining strong options together is much stronger than simply relying on one.

 

[Clebus]

nah man you can just cc dtilt every laser works evrry time

 

[Mr. Bean]

PP I like how you put things in terms that I can understand. I feel like sometimes people go way too in detail and you break down what are some good options.

 

[SeeJayWolf]

Can anyone give me some tips vs Peach and Ganon? I always feel like I'm overpowered by Ganon.

 

[BTmoney]

Can anyone give me some tips vs Peach and Ganon? I always feel like I'm overpowered by Ganon.

ganon:
don't jump at him unless you're crossing him up but in general don't do it unless he's above you or you know you'll hit
pretty much just dash dance until he does something (literally, I won't do anything else until they make me) because it's pretty easy to get grabs on him but you have to be tight about it because of his jab
if he's not doing anything I like to push him into the corner with d-tilt or poke him (run cancel d tilt and WD d tilt)

peach:
honestly I play the MU relatively the same way, I might add a few low fairs in place, but this time I like to jump into peach/aerial when she has a turnip. It's weird because peach without a turnip seems good for marth and peach with a turnip also seems good for marth but in a completely different way. I like to try to prevent them from getting turnips though because they are annoying and tricky to deal with. At very low percent I go for cheesy f throw-> f smash (if you get it cool, if you don't no big loss) and anything past that I u throw.

When you u throw peach make sure she can't fall or float behind you. Keep her in front of you because it's a lot easier to threaten her with fair (which hits above you and infront) and uair than using bair to keep your juggle or get a hit. I also like to challenge her float, maybe that's right maybe it's wrong. I find peach easier to deal with when she's in the air because she can't outrange you with anything or move backwards that fast and she has to put out an aerial and fall to use her insane mixup game so I try to prevent that rather than trying to out smart her all the time. Also try not to get d smashed lol, it's non-trivial and important. Shield as little as possible.

 

[ShroudedOne]

"It's weird because peach without a turnip seems good for marth and peach with a turnip also seems good for marth but in a completely different way."

^This guy knows.

 

[linkoninja]

What about some tips vs Sheik?

 

[Espi]

Never get grabbed. Ever.
How legitimate of OOS option is tipper Uair OOS (Scooper)?

 

[Bones0]

Never get grabbed. Ever.
How legitimate of OOS option is tipper Uair OOS (Scooper)?

I actually looked at this option recently. It depends on the character because even the earliest uair will miss on some characters standing still. You also have to consider the risk of the opponent not being at a standstill. Most characters will lower the top of their hurtbox when dashing, jumping, landing and even at the beginning of certain attacks. For example, if Yoshi does a DJC nair on your shield, you might think you can uair OoS, but if he jumps immediately after landing to do another aerial, his jumpsquat will probably cause him to duck your uair. Obviously that is based on timing more than anything.

 

[ItWasAMindgame!]

Can someone give me the best counter-pick and starter stages against Sheik, Fox, and Falco, with an explanation as to why please.
Also, idk why, but I tend to do really well on FoD, so that or yoshi's is what I would c-p against Falcon (assuming they were smart and banned FD)

 

[Clebus]

Falcon's love FD against bruh. They tend to hate FoD though.

 

[Bones0]

Can someone give me the best counter-pick and starter stages against Sheik, Fox, and Falco, with an explanation as to why please.
Also, idk why, but I tend to do really well on FoD, so that or yoshi's is what I would c-p against Falcon (assuming they were smart and banned FD)

It depends on the player. You should base your bans and counterpicks on why you lost game 1, not which stage is "supposed" to be the best for that matchup.

 

[AustinRC]

But tech chasing falcon on FD is so much fun though!

 

[ItWasAMindgame!]

It depends on the player. You should base your bans and counterpicks on why you lost game 1, not which stage is "supposed" to be the best for that matchup.

Very true, thanks

 

[Dr Peepee]

Can someone give me the best counter-pick and starter stages against Sheik, Fox, and Falco, with an explanation as to why please.
Also, idk why, but I tend to do really well on FoD, so that or yoshi's is what I would c-p against Falcon (assuming they were smart and banned FD)

That's a long explanation for every one!

Against Sheik. moving more is where Marth really fares well vs Sheik so pick bigger stages.

Against Fox, you want to be able to have ground movement over him but not let him have too much platform play.

Against Falco, well, I don't really know what I think about that yet besides FD being good for Marth since he hits harder there and DL being better for Falco because he hits harder and escapes better in neutral there.


I agree that adjustment to your own abilities and those of your opponent is important, but I do not think that means ruling out what is strong for your character in a given matchup.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

DL is bad against any character Marth plays. It seems like Marth wants tighter spaces to control. The extra stage is nice, but the extra dimension of platform heights sort of ruins Marth's control. It often removes many of his options.

YI/FoD are probably his overall best stages against character's in terms of his punishment game. He has many more options when it comes to a punish.

FD, BF, and PS I think are sort of the next best things for him. It aides in having more stage to potentially use for him while not getting screwed over by platform heights like in DL. BF I would probably avoid against Fox/Falco simply because top platform and their movement do not mix well together for Marth.

 

[Bones0]

DL is bad against any character Marth plays.

Not Roy.

In all seriousness, I think it might be decent vs. ICs. Marth mains are just absolute trash when it comes to utilizing platforms for anything but juggles, which isn't surprising since his groundplay is better in 90% of situations anyway. But still, that means you're missing out on 10% of his game. People should experiment with shai drop/runoff aerials, WLs, DJs, etc.