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Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

DJ _ICE

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 20, 2013
Messages
179
IASA means interruptible as soon as. Dair's IASA frames start on frame 20, meaning you can interrupt the 49 frame long move with anything you want to (for whatever reason, only dtilt can't be interrupted by shield). This makes it great in neutral because you can quickly poke, then dash away or followup since the move ends fast and has great range. I'm sure I'm not giving dtilt enough credit in neutral cause I don't fully understand how great it is, I'm sure PPMD or Umbreon do though
 

Xyzz

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 7, 2011
Messages
2,170
Location
Gensokyan Embassy, Munich, Germany
Interruptible As Soon As.

The specified frame is the one some animation is still playing, but can be interrupted by some things already (notably including walking/dashing/jumping/a - button moves, and excluding shield/airdodge and special moves. Note that you can do walk into shield/b move on the next frame if you're grounded).

Marths downtilt can be interrupted really early in the animation. To get a feel for that it's nice to do one and hold walk, and see the difference to doing one and holding shield.
 

Clebus

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 29, 2013
Messages
203
Location
Tennessee
Incidentally, if you want to interrupt your dtilt with shield you can just buffer walk and hold shield, and you'll get the shield.
I think
 

HaND_MasTeR

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 14, 2014
Messages
3
thanks guys. also who is umbreon- seems to have a lot of knowledge but ive never heard of him as far as tournament results (different name maybe?)
 

Mr. Bean

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 5, 2014
Messages
79
Location
Newark, Delaware
Umbreon? that guy is trash. haha no he came to DE and pooped on all of us and Ultimascout. he's pretty good. "waiting is OP in this game"
 

Dr Peepee

Ancient Light
Moderator
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
27,630
Location
Raleigh, North Carolina
Marth's Fundamental Problem is essentially that his sword moves are a bit slow to come out and a bit laggy while also moving in arcs instead of constant hitboxes like Fox's Nair. This all adds up to Marth really struggling to place his moves in appropriate places which is why precision is so highly valued with the character. Luckily, the range of the moves, his mobility, and largely Dtilt resolve this problem. Dtilt is so useful in this case because it is fast, has low ending lag due to IASA, and is a constant hitbox. It provides Marth a way, albeit a bit straightforward way(as I explained in response to Niko earlier) to combat his fundamental issue.
 

linkoninja

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 26, 2009
Messages
459
Location
Los Angeles
I know this is old but I short hop Double-Fair using the Z button. That way I don't have to move my fingers much. It's an option.
 

net1234

Smash Ace
Joined
May 15, 2013
Messages
738
Location
SLC Utah
hey guys i have two probably gimmicky things that i would like to hear back on cuz their kinda funny. So marth has a pretty bad ledge dash so i have been messing around with dancing blade from the edge. like you jump up and throw out one or 2, and if it hits u get a free 3rd one usually knocking them back because the first two are done in the air and the 3rd one touches the ground gives a large forward boost. if it whiffs its not too laggy. probably gets wrecked by shield cc though.
second one is a dumb thing u might catch ur opponent with like once.
So when your in your run animation and you turn around your in your turnaround lag people often assume u messed up. also while your sliding at them you kinda look like ur facing backwards bur really ur facing forwards. so you can either fair or jc grab out of it and they probably will never expect it.

tl;dr
dancing blade from edge
melee reverse aerial rush
 

Dr Peepee

Ancient Light
Moderator
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
27,630
Location
Raleigh, North Carolina
The side B from the edge is not something you should really use all that much if at all imo. It hits like Fair does so people will be spacing around it or punishing it like they would punish Fair except it would be easier lol.

I am kinda interested in your other idea though. Thanks for giving me something to mess with =)
 

SpiderMad

Smash Master
Joined
May 6, 2012
Messages
4,968
@ Dr Peepee Dr Peepee Are you able to do what M2K does where he's on the ledge and does an apparently 1 frame strict input of let go of ledge (down or back?) to DJ and Neutral-B and ASAP that he's able to regrab the ledge once it ends
 

harMoNiC

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 7, 2014
Messages
17
@ Dr Peepee Dr Peepee Are you able to do what M2K does where he's on the ledge and does an apparently 1 frame strict input of let go of ledge (down or back?) to DJ and Neutral-B and ASAP that he's able to regrab the ledge once it ends
That frame window is actually quite a bit larger than 1 frame. If you get a frame-perfect (or 1-frame from perfect) DJ, it's a 4-frame window for Neutral-B. You can hit DJ on frame 6 of the fall and it's still a 3-frame window for the Neutral-B.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Wait I'm confused. Can someone post vid or gif of what he's describing? I can't picture it in my head.
Next time you play, go into a full run, do the laggy turnaround animation in the opposite direction, but interrupt it with a jump into grab, aerial, or WD and you will see your character hasn't turned around yet. The frame data and hitbox thread should list the exact frame that he turns around during said animation.
 

SpiderMad

Smash Master
Joined
May 6, 2012
Messages
4,968
That frame window is actually quite a bit larger than 1 frame. If you get a frame-perfect (or 1-frame from perfect) DJ, it's a 4-frame window for Neutral-B. You can hit DJ on frame 6 of the fall and it's still a 3-frame window for the Neutral-B.
Having a version 1.0 Melee wouldn't effect that right
 

Dr Peepee

Ancient Light
Moderator
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
27,630
Location
Raleigh, North Carolina
@ Dr Peepee Dr Peepee Are you able to do what M2K does where he's on the ledge and does an apparently 1 frame strict input of let go of ledge (down or back?) to DJ and Neutral-B and ASAP that he's able to regrab the ledge once it ends
not very consistently at all haha. i don't think it's really worth putting time into personally but it's also that much more valuable if you do end up being able to do it since it's rare and kinda solid.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
It's really solid... unless your opponent is capable of CCing, attacking OoS, or trading with a LH attack that has horrible startup and cooldown... >_>
 
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dyl0n

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 30, 2014
Messages
17
Location
Staten Island, NY
Situationally speaking, when is it more advantageous to autocancel an aerial as opposed to L-canceling it? As well as dash grabbing opposed JC grabbing? I read up somewhere that dash grabbing should almost never be used since you can JC grab instead. I just wanna clarify when and if at all you can use dash grabs in certain situations because from what I infer, it's like really bad if you do one.
 
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DJ _ICE

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 20, 2013
Messages
179
As far as I know, nair is the only aerial that ever gets talked about with Marth and auto cancelling, cause short hopping it will auto cancel it everytime, don't use it to approach though, its easily punishable. The other aerials just l-cancel, you the landing lag when l canceled for marth is short enough anyway, it would be a hassle to try and auto cancel them
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
It's better to have the 4 frames of default landing lag, but you have to take into account whether it is more in your interest to have more landing lag and hit right before landing or hit higher off the ground/without FFing and get the AC. All of his aerials AC, so you just have to figure out which option is better based on the situation. If we are just using tipper fair -> fsmash as an example, sometimes ACing the fair is the only thing that makes it possible to get out of landing lag fast enough to hit the fsmash. Sometimes it doesn't matter if you land sooner and L-cancel, but there will also be times where you HAVE to L-cancel because fairing high enough to AC wouldn't let you land soon enough.

This concept is pretty important for all of Marth's aerials, so you should definitely test out ACing vs. L-cancelling your aerials. It comes into play in every uair platform juggle, fair combo across the stage, nair for zoning/combos, and even more obscure situations like bairs out of SHs or aerials done after WDing off a plat.
 
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Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
I think it's actually pretty good vs. certain chars like Puff because she's too slow to jump and hit you on reaction. Marth goes really high, and even if you get hit, you retain your DJ and can usually recover just fine whereas getting hit out of a LH can spell disaster.
 

tauKhan

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Messages
1,348
Situationally speaking, when is it more advantageous to autocancel an aerial as opposed to L-canceling it?
Marth's aerials have very late ac frames compared to hitboxes, so generally it's faster
to go for l-cancels. Nair is the exception though, perfect AC nair is exactly as fast as perfect l-canceled one. The AC nair has hitbox higher up than the l-canceled one, so it can be better than l-canceled one in some situations. It's also easier to do than fastest l-canceled nair.

It's better to have normal landing lag (4 frames)
Fixed ;).
Sometimes ACing the fair is the only thing that makes it possible to get out of landing lag fast enough to hit the fsmash.
It would have to be a pretty specific situation, since AC fair can at most be 2 frames faster than l-canceled one. Maybe this may occur if you fair immediately after sh, but that is pretty difficult not to AC anyway.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
It would have to be a pretty specific situation, since AC fair can at most be 2 frames faster than l-canceled one. Maybe this may occur if you fair immediately after sh, but that is pretty difficult not to AC anyway.
If you are drifting forward with the fair, wouldn't the distance gained by the increased aerial time actually make it effectively more than 2 frames faster than L-cancelled fair -> running fsmash? Also, is it always better to FF and L-cancel when running off of a plat with a fair or LH fair? I can't imagine that's the case, especially if you start considering you might have to wait for a certain frame of the move to hit before you FF or you risk missing an opponent spaced more conveniently for a non-FFed fair (and I'm assuming the FF is the main thing making up for increased landing lag in most cases).
 

townes

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 7, 2011
Messages
84
Location
Memphis, TN
Does anyone have any tips for marth in teams. I team with a fox and we try to emulate pewfat. We did ok at Tipped Off 10, but we got soundly dominated by a puff falcon team. Who should match up against who in teams? Should I ever take shiek? Should I take falcon? Should I take the space animal? Pewpew U is the only top player who makes marth look viable in teams. I've watched Ken and KDJ, but they rarely went marthFOX which I think is the best option. Anyone have marth team advice?
 

Ashkon Honardoost

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 5, 2014
Messages
13
Does anyone have advice for recovering while on ledge? I've also been struggling a lot recovering when i get hit off stage.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Does anyone have any tips for marth in teams. I team with a fox and we try to emulate pewfat. We did ok at Tipped Off 10, but we got soundly dominated by a puff falcon team. Who should match up against who in teams? Should I ever take shiek? Should I take falcon? Should I take the space animal? Pewpew U is the only top player who makes marth look viable in teams. I've watched Ken and KDJ, but they rarely went marthFOX which I think is the best option. Anyone have marth team advice?
I don't think the character you and your teammate focus on really matters all that much. I think until you're at a high level of teams play, 90% of the game is going to be decided by how effectively you guys work together with overall positioning. Learn how to zone out one of the players while 2v1ing the guy who is sandwiched or how to hold center stage with two 1v1s, only helping when one of you starts to get in trouble. There's actually a good amount of doubles content out there to check out:

Kirby Kaze - A Beginner's Guide to Teams

The Smash Lab, E1 - "Bros Before Pros" with Shroomed and Pewpewu

The Smash Lab, E2 - Teams With Alukard and DJ Nintendo

Does anyone have advice for recovering while on ledge? I've also been struggling a lot recovering when i get hit off stage.
Recovering FROM the ledge or TO the ledge? Both are pretty complicated subjects so you're best just watching what top players do, M2K especially, but if you can be more specific about how you're getting edgeguarded, you will get more specific feedback.
 

Ashkon Honardoost

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 5, 2014
Messages
13
Recovering FROM the ledge or TO the ledge? Both are pretty complicated subjects so you're best just watching what top players do, M2K especially, but if you can be more specific about how you're getting edgeguarded, you will get more specific feedback.
I struggle with both situations, but mainly getting back to the stage from the ledge. For example in the Marth vs Marth matchup I always struggle with getting back onto the stage from ledge. I can't seem to escape being down tilted or forward smashed while trying to recover.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
I struggle with both situations, but mainly getting back to the stage from the ledge. For example in the Marth vs Marth matchup I always struggle with getting back onto the stage from ledge. I can't seem to escape being down tilted or forward smashed while trying to recover.
Some basic tools you should be able to apply:
1. Learn to DJ regrab on the ledge without poking your head above. Marth has a really good ledge grab range, so once you get to the ledge, you need to be comfortable managing your invincibility. You're by no means 100% safe when DJ regrabbing, but most people won't try to approach you on the ledge just on principle.
2. Invul ledgedash; practice it until you can consistently get on with enough invulnerability to shield. Bonus points if you learn to reverse ledgedash back onto the ledge to bait them into whiffing an attack by the ledge.
3. Learn to techjump-bair when you up-B to the ledge and get hit by an attack.
4. Learn when you can sweetspot around dtilt/fsmash by being as far from the ledge as possible, both horizontally and vertically (easy to practice on your own).
5. Study and practice side-B stalling. The top Marths know how to save their jump and first side-B so when they recover low, they can use these to wait for the opponent to get off the ledge. 99% of Marth recoveries consist of threatening the opponent with a possible up-B so that they roll early and you simply DJ/side-B and up-B as their ledgeroll ends.
6. Learn to Survival DI well. The best way to recover is to not have to use your up-B in the first place. The better you DI, the less often you will have to up-B, and the more often you will easily make it back because all you have to do is DJ to grab the ledge.
 

Boomy

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 12, 2008
Messages
164
Location
London, ON
So I'm a Marth main. Been playing on and off since about 2010, but I'm starting to dedicate a bit more time to smash.

The question that always keeps me up at night, is there a difference between a "gay" Marth, and a good Marth?
 
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