Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Beat!]

Dsmash also comes out faster. There are edgeguard situations where fsmash is too slow but dsmash connects. Worth keeping in mind.

 

[ChivalRuse]

You could just up-b which actually has knockback and is faster than f-smash.

 

[Kadano]

@ net1234 dsmash-tipper is stronger than fsmash-tipper, so it’s a good choice if you are confident in landing it. Doing so is a bit harder than with fsmash because it’s range is different:

Pink is dsmash-tipper, blue is fsmash-tipper.
I’m pretty sure Sheik is floaty enough that killing her off the top is easier than through the side. Like you wrote, there is a good chance she will DI for fsmash which makes killing off the top even easier.

 

[Estwood]

Sort of a blunt question but what is Marth's best option in a pressure situation against a spacey?

 

[Life]

Sort of a blunt question but what is Marth's best option in a pressure situation against a spacey?

As in the spacie is pressuring Marth?

I wouldn't say there's a best option because anything spammed becomes predictable and punishable. Depending on what kind of pressure it is and how it's spaced, rolling usually works and resets to near-neutral; wavedash, grab, or upB OOS can work, with more risk and reward; and if the space animal isn't right on top of Marth just yet, dashing away is also good and can often lead to pivot grabs. Counter is also usable, but it's a lot of risk relative to its reward.

 

[net1234]

@ net1234 dsmash-tipper is stronger than fsmash-tipper, so it’s a good choice if you are confident in landing it. Doing so is a bit harder than with fsmash because it’s range is different:

Pink is dsmash-tipper, blue is fsmash-tipper.
I’m pretty sure Sheik is floaty enough that killing her off the top is easier than through the side. Like you wrote, there is a good chance she will DI for fsmash which makes killing off the top even easier.

thanks for the graphic ill go test it a bit harder

 

[Bones0]

You could just up-b which actually has knockback and is faster than f-smash.

Up-B isn't nearly as strong as fsmash/dsmash tippers. I think it's actually near or equivalent to nair's KB. It's also easily ground teched.

 

[Kadano]

Up-B isn't nearly as strong as fsmash/dsmash tippers. I think it's actually near or equivalent to nair's KB. It's also easily ground teched.

That reminded me, it was about time I finished the comprehensive Marth knockback graph.

 

[net1234]

That reminded me, it was about time I finished the comprehensive Marth knockback graph.

its so beautiful

 

[Guzzler Guzzler]

Are there any good throw setups for tipper dsmash at higher percents vs marth/sheik?

 

[Niko45]

To give a very general answer to a general question, I think WD oos and Fair oos tend to be solid against spacies pressure.

 

[ChivalRuse]

It's easier to catch a missed tech with up-b generally than with a tipped d-smash because the spacing is easier to set up.

Just saying, up-b is easier to land in general and will kill the opponent much more consistently than d-smash, no matter how hard you try to space that sweetspot. Granted, a whiffed up-b probably won't go well for you.

 

[Niko45]

PPMD - This may be a question that is too general and unanswerable, but could you share some thoughts on how to play well between stocks? I think I have a huge gap in my game where I seem to always get hit during opposing respawn and during my own respawn I can't seem to get anything going. Do you have any specific tricks or suggestions of good habits to practice, or maybe just general mental outlook on the situation?

How can I stop situations like this from happening? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VW8iX3P_NU4#t=9m6s

Every time something like this happens I get so upset with myself, cause quite frankly, you can't get hit/die that easily if you want to be successful in this game.

 

[Guzzler Guzzler]

I am not PP but sometimes people can get too caught up in practicing tech skill and just doing random nonsense between stocks. For example you didn't even bother to shield has DJ came down and he got an easy missile on you. I like to fake out my opponents in between stocks with random (safe) movement and platform camping

 

[ChivalRuse]

Niko, you should react to your opponent's movement rather than do predetermined things when they come back from respawn. Why are you charging into a Samus coming down invincible on a stage as big as Stadium where you can run for days?

 

[BTmoney]

I haven't played Marth since I first mained him like 2 years ago, been playing fox but I think I'm coming back.

Can we talk about low & mid percent throw follow ups in the Marth ditto and in Marth v Sheik?
I'm just looking for some good rule of thumbs since I can't practice very much right now and I forgot everything about the char

 

[Guzzler Guzzler]

A lot of it is DI dependent, but if you catch them messing up their DI fthrow fsmash is very good. I always throw them off the ledge when I can whether it be fthrow or bthrow. Aside from that you can upthrow them and they're generally helpless, you can get a few uptilts on sheik at lower percents, but after that you can just read the double jump and hit them with an up air

 

[dyl0n]

Please forgive the nooby question, but what's the recommended method to do double forward airs? I use the C-stick when doing my aerials but I can't execute the double F-air as a result of me not being quick enough when using the C-stick. I get kinda close when using A but still not entirely. I don't really wanna mix up my control inputs just for one situational attack. Any advice?

 

[Kadano]

Can we talk about low & mid percent throw follow ups in the Marth ditto and in Marth v Sheik?
I'm just looking for some good rule of thumbs since I can't practice very much right now and I forgot everything about the char

http://smashboards.com/threads/kadano’s-perfect-marth-class—advanced-frame-data-application.337035/
⇒Guaranteed combo strings

 

[Bl00dyBizkitz]

Please forgive the nooby question, but what's the recommended method to do double forward airs? I use the C-stick when doing my aerials but I can't execute the double F-air as a result of me not being quick enough when using the C-stick. I get kinda close when using A but still not entirely. I don't really wanna mix up my control inputs just for one situational attack. Any advice?

C-stick for both fair's is probably the way to go. It took me a few days to get the timing down, but once you get it, it's like riding a bike. My advice to you would be try to make your fair comes out of your SH as quickly as possible, so that you'll actually have time to throw out a second fair before landing. You should be hitting the C-stick to the side immediately after your SH. Once you can do the SH double fair, start L-Canceling (if you haven't already) and repeating it over and over, and start moving back and forth across the stage too. Retreating SH double fair is a beautiful zoning technique to have in the neutral.

 

[harMoNiC]

Please forgive the nooby question, but what's the recommended method to do double forward airs? I use the C-stick when doing my aerials but I can't execute the double F-air as a result of me not being quick enough when using the C-stick. I get kinda close when using A but still not entirely. I don't really wanna mix up my control inputs just for one situational attack. Any advice?

To supplement: I wouldn't be too worried about mixing up forward+A and C-stick for double fairs (I think M2K does c-stick -> A sometimes); however, I think c-stick is a superior option in most cases, as it allows you to perform better DI during the f-airs so that you can space better.

That being said, I had a lot of trouble with c-sticking both f-airs when I first switched from A because I had gotten so used to double f-airing with A by simply spamming A to get the second f-air out. The c-stick can't be spammed as quickly as A so you have to be more precise with your inputs — once you better learn the timing for the second f-air, you should have a much easier time performing double c-sticked f-airs. So instead of spamming, really try to learn the timing for the second f-air so that you only have to hit the c-stick twice.

 

[Zeppeli]

Could somebody highlight what to do when you chaingrab spacies between 20%~40%?

I've seen the constructed flowchart. Both up-tilt and regrab works great at these easier percents if the spacie DIs away. But I don't seem to have much of an answer for when he DIs back/slight/no DI. I'm assuming it has something to do with the hack pack, if anybody has used it prior to practicing chaingrabs with different DIs. The spacie will, often between 20%~40%, shine you as he's coming down.

Is it safe to assume this won't happen in matches vs other players? I'm under the impression that this is some frame perfect stuff.

 

[Mahie]

You can get a pivot grab, but it is indeed close to frame perfect, I think the window is 2 frames.

 

[Clebus]

Edit: Nevermindddd

 

[Life]

Chaingrabbing Falco seems to be harder than chaingrabbing Fox as well, though maybe I've just practiced the latter more.

 

[Zeppeli]

You can get a pivot grab, but it is indeed close to frame perfect, I think the window is 2 frames.

I don't think I've ever got that. though one time I recalled that i landed a really low % uair and could grab from that ... and it was off DI behind or slight DI. It was a very rare occurrence that never happened again

i'll just assume that players aren't too consistent with landing the shine. grabs tend to be easy if the shine doesn't come into place.

one last question, if I may. do people go for SHFFL uair instead of delayed up-tilt at certain higher %s since you can DI the up-tilt away easier? SHFFL uair in my opinion seems to be a lot harder than delayed up-tilt, which really makes the regrab a lot easier

 

[Mahie]

Uair is better because they can't DI away, yes. Not only is it harder to get the whole string done with too many utilts, you can also deal more damage with uairs, and you don't give the opponent a chance to get back to middlestage by just DIing in.

If their DI on utilt leads them to the edge, though, you can utilt. Just face the stage and utilt that way.

Spacies are consistent at shining out of chaingrabs and will go for it, as it's the hardest option to cover for Marth. Pivot grabbing is the answer to it.

 

[Zeppeli]

Thanks for the clarification.

So uair over u-tilt whenever possible and pivot grab against shines.

 

[Mahie]

Utilt is a much easier option to use, though, so at times where it's useful, go ahead and use it, you don't have to go for uair every time.

 

[Beat!]

Chaingrabbing Falco seems to be harder than chaingrabbing Fox as well, though maybe I've just practiced the latter more.

This is a fairly common sentiment. Falco's heavier and falls faster so the timing's a little more awkward against him. Also, you can't regrab Falco after uthrow at 0% if he DIs behind you so there's that. Also #2 if he DIs away he gets out of standing regrab range at a lower percent than Fox so you have to start moving (read: dashing) after each throw a little earlier.

...


Can we talk about turnips? Because when I play against Peaches that are anywhere between decent and good, turnips are rarely more than a (notable) nuisance; not to be underestimated in the neutral game and while I'm recovering, but with proper spacing and dash timings I'm usually able to work around them. Basically, not a huge issue as long as I push Marth's strengths in the matchup.

Then I play against Armada and all of a sudden I'm facing a barrage of turnips which at times seems nigh-impenetrable because by the time I've maneuvered around or blocked one turnip, he's got another one ready to be thrown. I'm getting consistently locked down by it to the point where it's legitimately difficult to analyze other aspects of my neutral game against him because almost everything I do is - one way or another - centered around my inability to handle his turnip pressure. Sometime's I'll lose my patience and attempt to just muscle through with an aerial or something hoping it'll hit him in the process. Surprisingly it works occasionally but it mostly just ends up being an over-commitment straight into a dash attack or bair and then I'm taking a **** load of damage because it's Armada.

One thing I could do is practice up my powershielding vs turnips because I'm admittedly bad at it and it would probably help out quite a bit. However, I'm hesitant to get on that right away because I think the underlying issue would be swept under the rug; I'd basically be using powershielding as a shoddy substitue for an actual understanding of turnip pressure and that's short-sighted.

Halp.

I suppose this is primarily directed at PP for obvious reasons but I welcome advice from anyone who wants to help and/or get a discussion going!

 

[Bones0]

This is a fairly common sentiment. Falco's heavier and falls faster so the timing's a little more awkward against him. Also, you can't regrab Falco after uthrow at 0% if he DIs behind you so there's that. Also #2 if he DIs away he gets out of standing regrab range at a lower percent than Fox so you have to start moving (read: dashing) after each throw a little earlier.

...


Can we talk about turnips? Because when I play against Peaches that are anywhere between decent and good, turnips are rarely more than a (notable) nuisance; not to be underestimated in the neutral game and while I'm recovering, but with proper spacing and dash timings I'm usually able to work around them. Basically, not a huge issue as long as I push Marth's strengths in the matchup.

Then I play against Armada and all of a sudden I'm facing a barrage of turnips which at times seems nigh-impenetrable because by the time I've maneuvered around or blocked one turnip, he's got another one ready to be thrown. I'm getting consistently locked down by it to the point where it's legitimately difficult to analyze other aspects of my neutral game against him because almost everything I do is - one way or another - centered around my inability to handle his turnip pressure. Sometime's I'll lose my patience and attempt to just muscle through with an aerial or something hoping it'll hit him in the process. Surprisingly it works occasionally but it mostly just ends up being an over-commitment straight into a dash attack or bair and then I'm taking a **** load of damage because it's Armada.

One thing I could do is practice up my powershielding vs turnips because I'm admittedly bad at it and it would probably help out quite a bit. However, I'm hesitant to get on that right away because I think the underlying issue would be swept under the rug; I'd basically be using powershielding as a shoddy substitue for an actual understanding of turnip pressure and that's short-sighted.

Halp.

I suppose this is primarily directed at PP for obvious reasons but I welcome advice from anyone who wants to help and/or get a discussion going!

The GOAT:

 

[Dr Peepee]

PPMD - This may be a question that is too general and unanswerable, but could you share some thoughts on how to play well between stocks? I think I have a huge gap in my game where I seem to always get hit during opposing respawn and during my own respawn I can't seem to get anything going. Do you have any specific tricks or suggestions of good habits to practice, or maybe just general mental outlook on the situation?

How can I stop situations like this from happening? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VW8iX3P_NU4#t=9m6s

Every time something like this happens I get so upset with myself, cause quite frankly, you can't get hit/die that easily if you want to be successful in this game.

Ah yeah I remember watching that now. Your momentum tumbled drastically after that point, which was interesting to me giving how commanding your first stock was.

What I told myself to do when I had a bit of an issue with this was to abuse what was strongest in an avoidance sense about my character. For Falco that is typically vertical play and for Marth that is typically movement(though I'm starting to wonder if his edge game wouldn't be better suited for that especially in most matchups.) You have a couple seconds to avoid, meaning that it helps to start closer to the middle and let them chase you some to wear out time. If you can ever cross them up you usually make it out well, and if it goes badly you either get punished or stuck in shield(usually by the edge, lending the idea to reverse edge dash being the go to at that point) when their invincibility ends. This is not a desirable state for Marth as he would rather be moving on the stage. As such, it requires some knowledge of how people respond to movements. You have a few mixups:

-stay a bit closer to the side and either go for a changeup on their respawn/drop to the ground or stick to your side

-stay in the middle and choose a side, fakes accordingly

-I've actually started using a bit of platform work to avoid opponents during invulnerability and it works pretty well because Marth is hard to follow at that time and it is not just dashing so the opponent has to take more time or commit to covering one option or the other to be successful


During your own respawn, it helps to keep people contained to one side of the stage and even if you don't get a hit if you have a large stage advantage that tends to work very well for Marth so I would milk that. The better your personal threat and containment game, the better. Many people may try to jump over you or roll through you or other weird tactics that can be a bit surprising but reactable, and I think if you learn how people usually try to get away you will see patterns.



Mentally, it can be extremely tempting to think of how you're doing and evaluate yourself or begin thinking about losing during a waiting time. It is best to use the time to reaffirm your strategies and ideally understand what happened the previous stock. Those seconds are a gift to me and I take as much from them as possible. I could write more about this part but I felt the other part was more pertinent for now.

Can we talk about turnips? Because when I play against Peaches that are anywhere between decent and good, turnips are rarely more than a (notable) nuisance; not to be underestimated in the neutral game and while I'm recovering, but with proper spacing and dash timings I'm usually able to work around them. Basically, not a huge issue as long as I push Marth's strengths in the matchup.

Then I play against Armada and all of a sudden I'm facing a barrage of turnips which at times seems nigh-impenetrable because by the time I've maneuvered around or blocked one turnip, he's got another one ready to be thrown. I'm getting consistently locked down by it to the point where it's legitimately difficult to analyze other aspects of my neutral game against him because almost everything I do is - one way or another - centered around my inability to handle his turnip pressure. Sometime's I'll lose my patience and attempt to just muscle through with an aerial or something hoping it'll hit him in the process. Surprisingly it works occasionally but it mostly just ends up being an over-commitment straight into a dash attack or bair and then I'm taking a **** load of damage because it's Armada.

One thing I could do is practice up my powershielding vs turnips because I'm admittedly bad at it and it would probably help out quite a bit. However, I'm hesitant to get on that right away because I think the underlying issue would be swept under the rug; I'd basically be using powershielding as a shoddy substitue for an actual understanding of turnip pressure and that's short-sighted.

Halp.

I suppose this is primarily directed at PP for obvious reasons but I welcome advice from anyone who wants to help and/or get a discussion going!

I'm going to try to learn the (apparently fairly easy) M2K air catch and Z drop of the turnip. Generally Peach doesn't even have time to punish it. If she does she's probably floating which I can run under or use Nair to probably counter her followup. It was a looot easier to use DDs and platform wavelands and threats on PS than FD where this skill becomes essential lol. Platformed stages besides DL(which is basically FD if you want to approach which imo you do at least in order to get close to Peach) you want to use the platforms to dodge the turnips then run off and take a stronger position vs her kind of like PS but probably a bit less room for error since the stage is smaller. However, the room for pulling turnips is also much smaller for Peach so I think this is mostly an issue for FD/PS/DL and outside of PS and maybe defensively on DL you need the Z drop vs Nair vs dash(dance) mixup.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

That reminded me, it was about time I finished the comprehensive Marth knockback graph.

I suppose it would be nice to request the other aerials as well? The data is nice, but I am not sure what practicality I can see from this in its current form without say the other moves.

The one thing I have always wanted to know about is what would be the most ideal aerial move to use to get the most horizontal distance from my opponent. If I use tipper Uair/Fair my opponents gets a ton of height out of their recovery. The more height they get the more drift they get and therefore a better recovery chance. If my opponent has to recover from low and far out they are forced to burn resources (2nd jump, UpB, Zair, etc.) in order to make it back to the stage. This makes their recovery bad and therefore predictable.

Simply from experience I would put wagers on non-charged neutral B, nBair, tBair, Nair, or nFair. They all have nice trajectories that I want (tFair is horrible for this purpose), but seem to have nearly similar knockback at times. Although, I believe some of them change up depending upon the percentage. In your chart dancing blade s4 is not as powerful as most of the other moves listed until 250% where it becomes the 3rd highest knockback. I assume the moves I mentioned probably have something like that as well.

 

[Kadano]

@ E Elyssa Xey Hexen what other aerials beside fair, bair, nair, dair and uair are there? Or do you mean sourspot?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I was referring to the sourspot. Nair does not have one from what I recall. Plus, I think you have shield breaker on this chart as the fully charged one and not the weak uncharged hit.

Anyone up for adding jargon for non-tipper versus tipper attacks :D

I say nFair and tFair for that acronym lol. n = non-tipper; t = tipper

 

[Kadano]

@ E Elyssa Xey Hexen Shield Breaker L1 is in the chart.

Here’s a new one with fair, bair and uair’s hilt / chest hitbubbles added:

Most of Marth’s attacks have four hitbubbles with different attributes. I call them tip, hilt, arm and chest in this chart as those are the bones they are attached to (except for tip, which is just a hilt hitbubble with an x-axis offset).

As you can see in the chart, hilt, arm and chest hitbubbles don’t always have the same KB attributes. I’m fine with using t for tip and n for chart, hilt and arm. If we want to refer to one of them specifically, we can just call it hbair, abair and cbair, respectively. Even though this will hardly ever be necessary.

Also, all non-tip aerials except for uair and hdair have the same KB angle (45°, coded as 361°). tbair is the best for edgeguarding as it has stronger 45° KB.

 

[Vegard]

Quick question: How can you know if you have maintained your dolphin slash boost midair when recovering? I have a sense of knowing it, but I don't really know the theory behind it.

 

[tauKhan]

Quick question: How can you know if you have maintained your dolphin slash boost midair when recovering? I have a sense of knowing it, but I don't really know the theory behind it.

What's a dolphin slash boost? Or do you mean dancing blade boost? Dancing blade upwards momentum charge refreshes on land animation, air dodge landing, and landing during up b and side b.

 

[bossyjellyfish]

Curious, I've seen PP use the phrase "Marth's Fundamental Problem" in reference to certain holes in Marth's gameplay. Can someone specify what these holes are?

 

[HaND_MasTeR]

what does IASA mean and how does it affect dtilt?