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Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

_eternal

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 15, 2010
Messages
187
Location
Toronto, Canada
Anyone know what percentages Marth can ground tech a few common moves at (Fox usmash, Marth dair or tipper fsmash, etc)? Single or double-stick SDI.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Anyone know what percentages Marth can ground tech a few common moves at (Fox usmash, Marth dair or tipper fsmash, etc)? Single or double-stick SDI.
Idk, but you can test this pretty easily on your own with a spare controller. Usmash your Marth, pause, input the DI/ASDI and tech, unpause.
 

AustinRC

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 11, 2005
Messages
1,482
Samus can almost always jump out. It won't work consistently enough against her. Pretty sure it's due to her deceptive weight.
 

Leeyam

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 2, 2014
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101
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Auckland, New Zealand
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leeyamnz
Well I am at home for a few days, so maybe I could write up a bit of stuff haha. I will at least expand on Niko's good point about Dtilt being abused and perhaps elaborate some on my EVO experience secondarily. While I enjoy writing, I will have to see if I feel in the mood to do it =p

Also lmao nice title Cactus you doofwad

This would be amazing and so helpful if you get down to doing it!
 

AustinRC

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 11, 2005
Messages
1,482
The pivoting guide is already done and on YouTube. I'm unfortunately having set backs with the new one however. I apologize but try and be patient.
 

Big Daddy Josh

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 17, 2014
Messages
76
The pivoting guide is already done and on YouTube. I'm unfortunately having set backs with the new one however. I apologize but try and be patient.
Yea i've seen that one, it's awesome, even though I have a hard time with some of them. But that's ok, I'm still working on patience, but I can wait lol.
 

Dr Peepee

Ancient Light
Moderator
BRoomer
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27,618
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Raleigh, North Carolina
It's really easy for sheik to blow up marth dtilting with SH jump fairs Amsah style. It's more like you should DD camp hard and only approach dtilt when you sense the sheik becoming open to it.

I think people's general concept of Marth dtilt is kinda off. The advice is always "Dtilt op, more dtilt, etc" but dtilt, while being VERY good is also VERY situational and can be punished mercilessly, especially as an approach.
I think I'll spend a bit of time replying to this now.

Niko has a VERY good point here. Dtilt is but the beginning of Marth's game. It does circumvent many of Marth's problems as a character(sword arcs being inconvenient, lag of the moves, can be CC punished) but it is still a hitbox that can only fight along the ground in front of Marth and is usually only useful after moving forward. This means people can beat Dtilt by simply waiting for Marth to dash/WD forward and jump over it and punish him or even intercept him before the Dtilt comes out.

This is all what Marth wants, imo.

He WANTS people to respond to his movement forward in some way that is not more movement. He WANTS people to run at him, to jump, to perhaps give up stage. He can counterattack(Fair/pivot grab), control air-to-air(Fair/Utilt/Uair/pivot grab), and win with positional advantage(anything lol) EXTREMELY well!

This means that, once a Dtilt threat is established, Dtilt is best used only as a reminder and not as a continuous tool. Marth becomes less buttons and more movement, only establishing Dtilt threat when opponents wish to return to ground play(this does not last for long when Dtilt comes back out in my experience lol.)

I still primarily prefer Dtilt as an approach/pushing tool for these reasons, but there may be some type of ploy to use with Dtilt moving backward I may not be aware of.

To summarize, Dtilt controls the ground movement and solves Marth problems, but if misunderstood or overused it simply traps the Marth player a manner of covering options the opponent is not choosing. Abusing Dtilt then abusing movement allows Marth to play to his fullest strengths.
 

Leeyam

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 2, 2014
Messages
101
Location
Auckland, New Zealand
NNID
leeyamnz
Thanks man, that really helps!

One more kinda noobish thing for anyone to answer, when I'm dash dancing I shouldn't be looking to shield approaches right? (except for powershielding falco lasers)

Like, I should be aiming to weave out of approaches instead of shielding and then react with a pivot grab or something right?
 

Dr Peepee

Ancient Light
Moderator
BRoomer
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Messages
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it is much better to use movement(or sword, depending, but movement > sword if possible because then that can lead to grab lol) than to use shield. However, shielding is sometimes okay. I would start learning to not use it then figure out places it has to be used or could be used effectively.
 

bossyjellyfish

Foxes Mate for Life
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
247
Location
MA
Curious, how do you make use of Marth's CC? Is the only effective move out of it Dtilt? Also, is it only usable >30-40%? It's something I never really learned to actively apply and was wondering which situations it's most optimal. For examples' sake, say in the Fox MU?
 

DJ _ICE

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 20, 2013
Messages
179
Marth can CC into grab which is usually the best choice for him. Since you can't grab out of crouch (I think) you can CC the hit, buffer shield then use A to grab
 

ChivalRuse

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
8,413
Location
College Park, MD
If you tip his jab, it's pretty hard to punish. Can lose to CC moves with range though (like Samus CC d-smash).

Aside from having a lower hitbox (meaning you won't be catching people out of jumps much) d-tilt is superior out of dash in every way.
 
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net1234

Smash Ace
Joined
May 15, 2013
Messages
738
Location
SLC Utah
been messing around with teeter canceling on platforms as marth, pretty funny to pull off because it allows for a lagless waveland on platforms into anything. kinda niche but fun and kinda useful nonetheless
 
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Dr Peepee

Ancient Light
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On a scale of 1 to 10, how bad is a quick jab out of dash and then running away again?
For some reason, Marth's jab feels so safe...
jab has some great uses, but i wouldnt use it out of dash except on falco(since he jumps and he gets particularly stuck by jab.)
been messing around with teeter canceling on platforms as marth, pretty funny to pull off because it allows for a lagless waveland on platforms into anything. kinda niche but fun and kinda useful nonetheless
nah man that specific thing into utilt is great at catching people lol def use that kinda stuff after uthrow
 

Guzzler Guzzler

Melee Elitist
Joined
Oct 6, 2013
Messages
425
Location
Baton Rouge, LA
Two questions:

First of all, is it possible to stand on top of marth during his get up attack? I swear I've seen this happen before, and I can't seem to find a gif of his hitbox when he does the get up attack.

Also about fthrow, dair at the ledge on sheik/marth: when can I do this?
 

Life

Smash Hero
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Grieving No Longer
Is it the less than 100% getup attack or the greater than 100% getup attack?

EDIT1: The answer to your question is that Fox, at least, can avoid both if he's close enough to the edge (I rolled a Fox over there and checked), although this may not be possible for larger characters. The low percent animation looks to be better about this than the high percent animation, though.

EDIT2:... you meant regular getup, not ledge getup. Whoops, gonna check that too.

EDIT3: So I went to Battlefield, positioned a Fox near the center of the stage, then wavedashed off one of the platforms as Marth in such a way that he slid off while holding shield, causing him to tumble and hit the ground. The resulting getup attack did hit Fox, but Marth pushed Fox to the side when he hit the ground. Does that help?

EDIT4: I went into Slo-Mo Melee so I could look at the hitboxes more carefully (I have the 20xx pack). The hitboxes cover all the horizontal distance continuously, with two caveats: one, there's a frame or two in the middle between the two swings of his blade, and two, the center hitboxes only go down to maybe Marth's midsection. Which means that as far as I could tell, one of two things could cause this: someone very fast running through Marth with precise timing (probably Fox, because Falcon's kinda big), or something with a very small hurtbox (crouching Jiggs? Pichu?) running on top of Marth and crouching under it just before the attack comes out.

I believe fthrow dair requires that they DI in, but I don't know exactly when, sorry.
 
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DJ _ICE

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 20, 2013
Messages
179
Its pretty much reaction for fthrow dair, if they DI in, judge if you can land the tipper hitbox (the first frame tipper out-prioritizes the other hitboxes so don't worry if the other hitboxes land). At mid-high percents is when it most likely works
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
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Aug 31, 2005
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Jarrettsville, MD
In Marth dittos, you can stand next to the opponent as he does a GUA and crouch under one of his swings. Not sure if it's the front or rear swing of his stomach or back GUA, but it's definitely possible for at least one of them.
 

Sword

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 19, 2014
Messages
34
Hey, do you guys have any tips on the Peach matchup? I know about Nair through turnips but that is it. Right now Peach is probably my worst MU. Thanks :)
 

Dr Peepee

Ancient Light
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vs peach it helps to stay close enough to threaten with sword(Dtilt/Fair) but far enough away to be able to react to dash attack. dtilt her if she stays defensive or tries to pull turnips. if she jumps then fair if possible(this is why staying close helps) or pivot grab her landing/landing actions. uthrow her and learn to juggle that but becoming good at fthrow/dthrow tech chasing might not hurt at lower percents either. hope that helps!
 

Sword

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 19, 2014
Messages
34
vs peach it helps to stay close enough to threaten with sword(Dtilt/Fair) but far enough away to be able to react to dash attack. dtilt her if she stays defensive or tries to pull turnips. if she jumps then fair if possible(this is why staying close helps) or pivot grab her landing/landing actions. uthrow her and learn to juggle that but becoming good at fthrow/dthrow tech chasing might not hurt at lower percents either. hope that helps!
I noticed in some of Mew2Kings old Marth vids when he still used Marth vs. Peach that when Peach was on the recovering end a lot of the time he would jump up to her if she was recovering high and back air. Do you think that in todays current metagame that this is still a good edgeguard?
 
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Dr Peepee

Ancient Light
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yeah sure but don't always bair right away because she might be close enough to almost get hit and make you miss and then she can recover. definitely try to threaten her with it though it's really good!
 

Life

Smash Hero
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To add to what PPMD said (although my experience is obviously a bit more limited than his haha), stage control is a big thing in the Peach matchup. She can't get it from you very easily, you can get it from her with somewhat less difficulty, and her options are a lot more limited without it. Obviously juggling hurts Peach a lot, but when that fails at least try not to give her center stage.

Basically, you want to pin her down.
 

Guzzler Guzzler

Melee Elitist
Joined
Oct 6, 2013
Messages
425
Location
Baton Rouge, LA
People mess up their DI on the fthrow a lot near the ledge since they like to hold in, if you take advantage of that you can get a tipper fsmash usually, or even a dair sometimes, the fthrow dair combo usually works better if they DI up though
 

net1234

Smash Ace
Joined
May 15, 2013
Messages
738
Location
SLC Utah
So a sheik has up bd on stage near the ledge and is in hitstun near kill percent, if tipper fsmash always gonna kill earlier than tipper dsmash? obviously their gonna be prepared for the fsmash and be diing up and in so killing off the top might be a good mixup. any thoughts? granted usually a tipper fsmash is enough but is there any% where this mixup is useful?

edit: stopped being lazy and tested it it sucks lol, maybe on yoshis
 
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Bones0

Smash Legend
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Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
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Jarrettsville, MD
So a sheik has up bd on stage near the ledge and is in hitstun near kill percent, if tipper fsmash always gonna kill earlier than tipper dsmash? obviously their gonna be prepared for the fsmash and be diing up and in so killing off the top might be a good mixup. any thoughts? granted usually a tipper fsmash is enough but is there any% where this mixup is useful?

edit: stopped being lazy and tested it it sucks lol, maybe on yoshis
I feel like you're probably not tipping the dsmash if it seems like it sucks that much... Dsmash tipper has the same KB as fsmash tipper, and when you combine that with upwards DI, I'd be surprised if there weren't any scenarios where dsmash KOs and fsmash doesn't. The stage, DI, and distance from the ledge are going to matter a lot.
 

ChivalRuse

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
8,413
Location
College Park, MD
So a sheik has up bd on stage near the ledge and is in hitstun near kill percent, if tipper fsmash always gonna kill earlier than tipper dsmash? obviously their gonna be prepared for the fsmash and be diing up and in so killing off the top might be a good mixup. any thoughts? granted usually a tipper fsmash is enough but is there any% where this mixup is useful?

edit: stopped being lazy and tested it it sucks lol, maybe on yoshis
You're asking whether to edgeguard with f-smash or d-smash and having trouble deciding which is better? -_-
 
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