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Magnawolf

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 19, 2007
Messages
197
Location
San Diego
Hi, can I get some general tips as to how Marth is supposed to fight Peach and Sheik? Thanks
I'll talk about the Peach/Marth matchup

Peach wants to be in one of two places: 1) Far away from Marth so she can pull out a turnip 2) Inside of Marth so she can start to punish Marth.

Peach wins far away and close range. Marth wants to stay in mid-range distance from Peach. Close enough so she won't pull out a turnip and far enough so Marth's range beats anything Peach can do.

A good Peach will stay grounded in the matchup. When Peach is on the ground, use a lot of a dash dancing. Force her to commit to something. If Peach sees Marth DDing, she will probably dash attack at some point. Be aware of that. Try to get grabs, dash attacks, and d-tilt when she's grounded.

If she goes up in the air, just fair her. Peach will not be approaching you from the air though. Peach will generally be in the air when she's trying to run away from you (to get a turnip) and doing retreating bairs. Her bair protects her from a grounded Marth approaching with d-tilt/dash attack/grab. If Peach catches on to you fairing her bair, she will start to dash attack again to beat your fair.

I think the matchup is close to even but slightly in Marth's favor. The matchup relies heavily on being able to get a feel for your opponent and understanding their habits.

Some good stages to pick: Yoshi's Story, FD, and Pokemon Stadium

Yoshi's doesn't give Peach room to run, FD is just a great Marth stage and a grab heavy stage, and Stadium has good platforms for Marth and a low ceiling to kill Peach. I'd say the hardest part of the matchup is killing Peach. Start looking for your kills early, not when Peach is racking up damage to 120%+ because then you're in trouble.
 
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Niko45

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 16, 2008
Messages
3,220
Location
Westchester, NY
I've been really inspired watching ARC's marth recently. I love the pivot fsmashes. I'm in the lab practicing them every day now. :o
 

Clebus

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 29, 2013
Messages
203
Location
Tennessee
You guys have got to help me. I'm going to a tourney with Brinstar and Kongo Jungle as counterpicks =\
So I need to know what characters I should ban one of the two against, or which I should be counterpicking.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
You guys have got to help me. I'm going to a tourney with Brinstar and Kongo Jungle as counterpicks =\
So I need to know what characters I should ban one of the two against, or which I should be counterpicking.
Ban Kongo vs. everyone. Spacies aren't going to take you to Brinstar if you ban KJ, and everyone else probably prefers KJ vs. Marth. Marth's main issue on those stages is obviously KOing, and it's just easier to maintain stage control and get KOs on Brinstar. I wouldn't worry about it too much because most people don't pick those stages even when they're legal. It's mainly going to be Puff/Peach mains so you'll just have to get some solid tippers so they don't live forever.
 

Dr Peepee

Ancient Light
Moderator
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
27,630
Location
Raleigh, North Carolina
okay im a glutton for punishment cant quit the marth no matter how hard i try, too much fun. @ Dr Peepee Dr Peepee can you kinda break down whats going through your mind during various neutral positions throughout this set? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kREm4Bsw58M theres a lot of subtlety i dont get in this matchup
If you ever want to know what I'm thinking in neutral in this matchup, it is mostly about forcing sheik to either jump or whiff a move and then punishing, and otherwise coaxing her to act with DD Dtilt.

If there is a specific position which interests you then we could discuss that.
 

net1234

Smash Ace
Joined
May 15, 2013
Messages
738
Location
SLC Utah
stupid question: when someone spotdodges your grab whats the best option at that point? are you guaranteed to get punished? im sure its character dependent. or is it a read based thing and they have options out of it. i dont know frame data that well
 

Clebus

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 29, 2013
Messages
203
Location
Tennessee
Ban Kongo vs. everyone. Spacies aren't going to take you to Brinstar if you ban KJ, and everyone else probably prefers KJ vs. Marth. Marth's main issue on those stages is obviously KOing, and it's just easier to maintain stage control and get KOs on Brinstar. I wouldn't worry about it too much because most people don't pick those stages even when they're legal. It's mainly going to be Puff/Peach mains so you'll just have to get some solid tippers so they don't live forever.
Thanks a lot. Hate losing my ban against those two especially though.
 

bossyjellyfish

Foxes Mate for Life
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
247
Location
MA
Finally got some footage of my marth in tournament, looking for some advice especially on my defensive movement options. I feel like I was more comfortable in neutral but poor DI decisions made some situations really poor for me. Also I felt like I was floundering with Fsmash just to get a solid hit. Any solutions to these couple of holes? Looking for any criticism really. I'm Jellyfish btw (blue Marth).

 
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Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
stupid question: when someone spotdodges your grab whats the best option at that point? are you guaranteed to get punished? im sure its character dependent. or is it a read based thing and they have options out of it. i dont know frame data that well
Every character specific forum has a hitbox/frame data thread where you can find which frames of a char's spotdodge are vulnerable, and which are invulnerable. As far as whether or not you can be punished, it's based on your spacing, the timing of their spotdodge, what they try to punish you with, and what you do to avoid said punish. With a character like Falcon, if he spotdodges too early vs. your grab, you can just grab again before he can do anything. If he times it so your grab comes out towards the end of his spotdodge, he can probably jab. If you buffer shield, he might just try to grab instead. There are a lot of mixups and you should just watch videos and test stuff on your own to figure out what your best options are.
 

Leeyam

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 2, 2014
Messages
101
Location
Auckland, New Zealand
NNID
leeyamnz
Hi, can I get some general tips as to how Marth is supposed to fight Peach and Sheik? Thanks
Against Sheik

1. Do DD Dtilt, you have way better movement so use this to your advantage.

2. Do more DD Dtilt

3. Sheik sucks in the air and when you haven't committed/aren't off-balance, quite easy to keep a juggle going on her. However your uthrow utilt combos on her are really wonky, try SH uair if they fall or something.

4. CC beats her tilts

5. Always grab the edge when she's offstage

6. Don't ever nair
 

AquaTech

We hit the potjack
Joined
Feb 11, 2008
Messages
734
Location
Austin, TX
Gonna be doing my first Melee tournament at a local place in about 3 weeks. What stuff should I be expecting? Gonna be maining Marth only
 

Jim Morrison

Smash Authority
Joined
Aug 28, 2008
Messages
15,287
Location
The Netherlands
stupid question: when someone spotdodges your grab whats the best option at that point? are you guaranteed to get punished? im sure its character dependent. or is it a read based thing and they have options out of it. i dont know frame data that well
Against spacies, shield, they will spotdodge shine, and the odds of you getting a regrab is so small compared to the punishment you will get by getting shined, you are better off either shielding or dashing away (probably better, but if you're late on the grab, not an option). What's better is to not grab at all during their spotdodge. I'm sure you've been in this situation about a million times, but if you just F-throw a Fox and they tech in place/away, and you run after them, they will spotdodge for the grab. Instead of grabbing, wavedash in place and wait out the spotdodge, and then grab in the recovery frames.
That's a very basic Marth trick, that will work up to a surprisingly decent level of melee.
 

net1234

Smash Ace
Joined
May 15, 2013
Messages
738
Location
SLC Utah
im so bad, whenever i wd in i either back off or dtilt. never even thought to grab, i always just did that out of a dash. im so ashamed of my scrubby self :(
 

Niko45

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 16, 2008
Messages
3,220
Location
Westchester, NY
It's really easy for sheik to blow up marth dtilting with SH jump fairs Amsah style. It's more like you should DD camp hard and only approach dtilt when you sense the sheik becoming open to it.

I think people's general concept of Marth dtilt is kinda off. The advice is always "Dtilt op, more dtilt, etc" but dtilt, while being VERY good is also VERY situational and can be punished mercilessly, especially as an approach.
 
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Big Daddy Josh

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 17, 2014
Messages
76
If you ever want to know what I'm thinking in neutral in this matchup, it is mostly about forcing sheik to either jump or whiff a move and then punishing, and otherwise coaxing her to act with DD Dtilt.

If there is a specific position which interests you then we could discuss that.
Could you make a post/blog about your EVO experience? Mostly interested in your mindset going into each day, and comments on your matches(you didn't look like you were playing that solid as you usually do). I know you're going through some personal stuff, so I was just curious how much that was affecting your overall play. Also if that was the case, is that the reason why you opted to go Marth more?

One last thing sorry lol, in your set vs Armada, I felt like you played the match-up WAY differently than you did at SKTAR when you beat him, just curious why?(ex: approaching with a lot of nairs)
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Could you make a post/blog about your EVO experience? Mostly interested in your mindset going into each day, and comments on your matches(you didn't look like you were playing that solid as you usually do). I know you're going through some personal stuff, so I was just curious how much that was affecting your overall play. Also if that was the case, is that the reason why you opted to go Marth more?

One last thing sorry lol, in your set vs Armada, I felt like you played the match-up WAY differently than you did at SKTAR when you beat him, just curious why?(ex: approaching with a lot of nairs)
He has 2 interviews from Evo on YouTube.
 

Dr Peepee

Ancient Light
Moderator
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
27,630
Location
Raleigh, North Carolina
Well I am at home for a few days, so maybe I could write up a bit of stuff haha. I will at least expand on Niko's good point about Dtilt being abused and perhaps elaborate some on my EVO experience secondarily. While I enjoy writing, I will have to see if I feel in the mood to do it =p

Also lmao nice title Cactus you doofwad
 

Sword

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 19, 2014
Messages
34
So I just got 4 stocked like 4 times in a row by a fsmash spamming Marth (Marth dittos) Now let me say something they were smart fsmashes. They just always somehow hit me. I guess this is what it is like to go against Azen XD But anyhow looking for some tips. Should I maybe try wavedashing OOS when he fsmashes my shield then punish? Any other pointer are welcome too :)
 

CyberZixx

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 26, 2012
Messages
1,189
That is why I would do. Bait, block, WD OOS into grab. That player won't know what hit him
 

Jim Morrison

Smash Authority
Joined
Aug 28, 2008
Messages
15,287
Location
The Netherlands
So I just got 4 stocked like 4 times in a row by a fsmash spamming Marth (Marth dittos) Now let me say something they were smart fsmashes. They just always somehow hit me. I guess this is what it is like to go against Azen XD But anyhow looking for some tips. Should I maybe try wavedashing OOS when he fsmashes my shield then punish? Any other pointer are welcome too :)
Yes. What's interesting is how you already know the answer to what you need to do. Wavedash OOS and punish is the correct answer. I'm sure you could sometimes predict the situations where he would F-smash, afterwards you would be like "I knew that was coming", "argh, I knew I shouldn't have done that".
Since you already thought of an answer, the next step is implementing it. The problem is that you need to think of it AND implement it while you are still playing. Doing it like that is what makes good habits stick more than evaluating afterwards. You look at the predictable situations and try to apply your solution to the problem you're facing, be it Falco lasers, someone recovering from the ledge, F-smash Marth, Fox grabbing you all the time. Think of a solution after it kills you, predict the situation and try to implement it.
 

AustinRC

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 11, 2005
Messages
1,482
I've been really inspired watching ARC's marth recently. I love the pivot fsmashes. I'm in the lab practicing them every day now. :o
Thank you so much man! Really means a lot to me. :D

Also.... Okay guys I've been getting a surprising number of questions on pivoting even after people have seen the tutorial. I should be getting a stream set up here very VERY soon. Within the next two weeks or so. I'm thinking about doing a live stream Q&A about pivoting. It will probably be a two day thing. If I did this who would be interested in watching/ participating in this?
 

Big Daddy Josh

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 17, 2014
Messages
76
Thank you so much man! Really means a lot to me. :D

Also.... Okay guys I've been getting a surprising number of questions on pivoting even after people have seen the tutorial. I should be getting a stream set up here very VERY soon. Within the next two weeks or so. I'm thinking about doing a live stream Q&A about pivoting. It will probably be a two day thing. If I did this who would be interested in watching/ participating in this?
I'm interested in this also! Just make a Marth tutorial and do this and I'll love you forever lol.
 

Kadano

Magical Express
Premium
Joined
Feb 26, 2009
Messages
2,160
Location
Vienna, Austria
I'd totally watch it ARC.

Why did we drop that Skype Marth group thing by the way? It was pretty great imo.

On another note, would anyone please watch this set :
Avalon IV - Mahie vs Sixx - SSBM Singles Winners Quarters

Please be as harsh as possible. I need to know what to do better. Not used to that style of Link at all.
Never shield. That includes powershield. Don’t do anything except spaced fairs and repeated dtilts when he is cornered. Keep swinging your sword, don’t give him the space to pull his bombs.

NEVER grab. It’s useless against link and high risk (spot dodge dsmash hits too hard).

Oh, and don’t double jump when you’re on top of him. Doing so makes your hard-earned pressure vanish completely.

Basically, do this all the time:

He can’t do anything but roll left or right, but that leaves you enough time to chase him there.
 

Mahie

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 18, 2007
Messages
1,067
Location
Lille, France
So you think even with 100% rate on powershields against bombs (which I'm really close to), it's not worth trying to use them to my advantage?

I should just shut them down before he can pull them out?

Link is a really odd matchup for Marth as a whole because of that anyway. Marth is mostly about baiting something out then punishing it, but vs Link it feels really hard to play taht style and I'm starting to think maybe just preventing him from doing anything is the solution.
 
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Kadano

Magical Express
Premium
Joined
Feb 26, 2009
Messages
2,160
Location
Vienna, Austria
So you think even with 100% rate on powershields against bombs (which I'm really close to), it's not worth trying to use them to my advantage?
Yes. You did get uair → utilt from the powershield bomb hit, but you could have gotten that out of an “aggressive” fair in the first place.
In my opinion, going for PS makes you stay further away from him. You give him room that way, which I don’t think is a good idea.

You often got shield grabbed when you faired his shield and then just stood in front of him. You should throw out a dtilt or a shdf every single time in that situation, unless you already see him rolling.
 

Mahie

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 18, 2007
Messages
1,067
Location
Lille, France
Hmm thanks for the imput man.

I will definitely try to stick closer to him next time.

I don't have enough experience v Link to do that in a safe way, you can tell by how much I cut corners in my defense and how little it served against Sixx compared to other Link players...

Why does Marth not get freebies against low tiers haha?
 
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bossyjellyfish

Foxes Mate for Life
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
247
Location
MA
Yes. You did get uair → utilt from the powershield bomb hit, but you could have gotten that out of an “aggressive” fair in the first place.
In my opinion, going for PS makes you stay further away from him. You give him room that way, which I don’t think is a good idea.

You often got shield grabbed when you faired his shield and then just stood in front of him. You should throw out a dtilt or a shdf every single time in that situation, unless you already see him rolling.
I've also found Link's Nair Oos or repeated use of nair in general to be difficult to deal with. I tend to start respecting and shielding them, but do you think the issue could be dealt with properly spaced fairs?
 

Kadano

Magical Express
Premium
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Messages
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Vienna, Austria
Iirc, nair trades if Link does it on the first frame of a short hop with maximum forward momentum. It basically comes down to who has the better execution. You can also drift back so his forward nair gets outranged, but doing so will put him out of your fair range if he opts to wait.

Imho trade vs positional advantage / shield stab is a good guessing game for Marth, so I'd go for that.
 

Niko45

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 16, 2008
Messages
3,220
Location
Westchester, NY
I'd totally watch it ARC.

Why did we drop that Skype Marth group thing by the way? It was pretty great imo.

On another note, would anyone please watch this set :
Avalon IV - Mahie vs Sixx - SSBM Singles Winners Quarters

Please be as harsh as possible. I need to know what to do better. Not used to that style of Link at all.
The powershields are great, but Link really wants you to shield, and any missed PS will give him a lot of pressure. Sidestepping Link's stuff is pretty good. It's probably just better to sidestep the boomerang than to powershield it.

I think crisp instant fair oos will punish a lot of the stuff he is spacing on your shield that can't be shield grabbed.

At medium distances, like at 3:37, a quick dash attack will punish predictable bomb pulls or boomerang start up, and will also probably give you a big combo.

I think you can use well SHFFL'd nairs on his shield to create favorable situations, like at 3:51. He will predictably up B OOS or go for a shield grab (which I feel like you could react to with a sidestep, but maybe it's faster than I think).

Oh, and also, FD is a pretty bad stage in this matchup I think. Like, one of the worst (if not THE worst).
 
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Dr Peepee

Ancient Light
Moderator
BRoomer
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Messages
27,630
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I have some theories on the matchup, but I played Axe and 2 stocked him on YS and got 3 stocked on FD so it seems easier when the stage is smaller lol.

Don't jump too much unless you think Pika will jump.

Dtilt can be good if you catch his DD.

Wait for his first part of up-B before swinging when edgeguarding usually.
 
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