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Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

Beat!

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
3,214
Location
Uppsala, Sweden
My only explanation for it is that fthrow->nothing ("but I could've gotten a tipper fsmash!!!!!") has been so deeply ingrained into the Marth metagame that even top level Marths fall into the trap sometimes (read: often). Like sure, there's a bunch of instances where you can point out risk-reward ratios and what not but there are sooooooo many times where uthrow would've simply been objectively better.
 
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Joined
Aug 6, 2008
Messages
19,346
My only explanation for it is that fthrow->nothing ("but I could've gotten a tipper fsmash!!!!!") has been so deeply ingrained into the Marth metagame that even top level Marths fall into the trap sometimes (read: often). Like sure, there's a bunch of instances where you can point out risk-reward ratios and what not but there are sooooooo many times where uthrow would've simply been objectively better.
I am not sure anymore. Uthrowing someone to the top platform of a stage that is not YI/FoD is a pain for Marth to cover. There is a certain percentage range where a person can get to the top platform and tech I believe before Marth can get there. Sometimes when Marth can get up there your hit does not do enough knockback for Marth to land and get back up there to keep covering the options. So, pretty much top platform can lead to say Uthrow -> Uair -> Uair, then you reset to a position where Marth is on the ground and the opponent is on the top platform able to shield. PDFS pretty much makes it unsafe for Marth to ever try swinging his sword at someone on the top platform.

In this case, I can see using Fthrow/Dthrow/Bthrow to reposition the person away from the top platform and closer to the side platforms. Sometimes you just get too much DI and they end up offstage and get to regrab the ledge. But, as with everything, I am not 100% sold on even my own opinion.
 

Clebus

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 29, 2013
Messages
203
Location
Tennessee
I feel like upthrow generally can get you camboes, while the others can lead to some positional advantage. In marth dittos, since you die so early, it's important. but not as important as fthrow -> nothing lol
 

Beat!

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
3,214
Location
Uppsala, Sweden
@ E Elyssa Xey Hexen Absolutely. Like I said, there are situations where uthrow follow-ups can be awkward. Doing fthrow or dthrow in those situations can certainly be justified (although uthrow should often still be considered). What I'm saying is that tons of Marths - even really good ones - use fthrow in almost any situation, even when A. it clearly keeps giving them nothing and B. uthrow clearly would've set up better follow-ups.
The main strength of fthrow is that it can give you insanely strong follow-ups when the opponent DIs incorrectly. Using it often instead of as a mix-up heavily reduces the efficiency of it.
 

Niko45

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 16, 2008
Messages
3,220
Location
Westchester, NY
Powershield, WD back OOS, retreat fair OOS, dash attack.

Try to learn the spots in Falco shield pressure where he is vulnerable. Shield grabbing (or up B OOS at high %) is good if you know it will work (like recognize when he has done an aerial too early).

Rolling out of pressure is also really good if it's not getting called out cause shine grab is really OP.

It's imperative that you get good at dealing with knocked down characters when fighting Falco. Space around get-up attack, don't fall for regular stand up -> shine. The worst is when you finally hit the bird and then he just starts a combo out of your failed tech chase. Falco preys on the anxiety that comes with feeling like you NEED to convert every time you get an opportunity.
 
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Hydrargyrum

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 17, 2013
Messages
18
Location
Rowley, MA
So I went to my first tourney last night and got stomped, as I expected I would be. What are some mandatory things I should work on before I go to my next one?
 

Magnawolf

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 19, 2007
Messages
197
Location
San Diego
I lost a terrible bet and have to play him. So I'm kinda screwed there..
Okay well we don't know how good you are so we don't really know what you need to work on.

You should be as proficient at controlling your character as possible. Make sure you can DD and wavedash perfectly. Make sure you can SHFFL aerials perfectly and consistently. Make sure you can do anything your brain wants you to do. Just play by yourself and focus on making your movement crispy.

If you can control your character 95% effectively, all you have to do in-game is focus on adapting and thinking against your opponent. Movement and execution should be something that you don't even have to think about. Like with any sport, if you're thinking about your execution, you're doing it wrong. It should be muscle memory.
 
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ChivalRuse

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
8,413
Location
College Park, MD
Work on spacing aerials so that you can hit with the tip or the middle of the blade if needed. Having this control will allow you to combo much better.

A lot of Marth players are very stationary when they first start out. You must master precise dash dancing otherwise your opponents will have free reign over you (because your only alternative to dash dancing is to stand in place and throw out terribly spaced and timed moves).

You need to think of Marth as a "mobile" character before you start using his range and spacing moves.
 

Sword

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 19, 2014
Messages
34
On the online netplay a couple of days ago I got wrecked by a projectile camping link. When I try to approach projectiles are thrown. If I do get into attacking range projectiles are still thrown to mess me up. If I don't approach and am far away, projectiles are thrown. Do you guys have any suggestions as to how to get through this wall of projectiles?
 

AustinRC

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 11, 2005
Messages
1,482
You can jab links boomerang, also keep in mind he has to pull bombs and that takes a second. Let bombs hit your shield and wavedash OOS to close the distance. Jab his boomerang when he throws it and then you should be at a good distance to punish him if he goes for bombs. Once in this range he may try and go to platforms and pull more bombs follow him to the platforms with fair or uair if he tries going for the top platform. Hope this helps.
 

ChivalRuse

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
8,413
Location
College Park, MD
Link has a terrible roll, feeble wavedash out of shield, and cannot jump fast or high. You should be able to rush him down before he can get too many projectiles out.
 

Magnawolf

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 19, 2007
Messages
197
Location
San Diego
Link has a terrible roll, feeble wavedash out of shield, and cannot jump fast or high. You should be able to rush him down before he can get too many projectiles out.
Yeah if you utilize Marth's speed Link shouldn't really be getting too many projectiles. Just stay on top of Link and you're golden.
 

Leeyam

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 2, 2014
Messages
101
Location
Auckland, New Zealand
NNID
leeyamnz
Using C stick for spaced aerials + A button for short hops/double fairs would be the optimal way of doing aerials, right?
 
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Leeyam

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 2, 2014
Messages
101
Location
Auckland, New Zealand
NNID
leeyamnz
Yea, I've been doing that and c-sticking all of my aerials but it makes sh double fair somewhat inconsistent. Trying to muscle memorize(?) using A just for shdfs.
 

ChivalRuse

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
8,413
Location
College Park, MD
Using X or Y to short hop and c-stick to aerial is by far the most optimal for fairs (because you have full control of the analog stick the whole time, for spacing).
 
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CyberZixx

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 26, 2012
Messages
1,189
I think a big part of the reason's my fair's have always been off is my bad habit of using A for fair. Gotta try to break that now, so Leeyam, although C stick is more difficult I suggest learning fair with it.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
The point isn't even really to hit with Dtilt after a while, it's using Dtilt to get FREE STAGE because people have to run away/shield/jump to dodge it. No one wants to block Dtilt or get hit by it because that's a free mixup/combo for Marth LOL. So, you eventually stop using Dtilt and start running at people and then Fair'ing and then they think Marth is just stupidly swinging his sword and getting kills. It's pretty awesome.

That same technique also begins to minimize Marth's Fundamental Problem because they get so concerned with Dtilt they don't have time to worry about Fair as well. Even if they do see it coming, there isn't much anyone can do about it when they're already cornered....Marth's corner game is amazing.

Okay I'm done writing now OMG SOMEONE RESPOND TO THIS PLEASE SO I KNOW I'M STILL ALIVE.
this is from 2012 and it's still beautiful. 10/10 standing ovation would catfish again.
 

ShroudedOne

Smash Hero
Premium
Joined
Mar 14, 2011
Messages
5,494
I remember when PP used to type really long posts that just boiled down to "dtilt." Lol.

Whenever I play Marth and do the rising double fair, I do the first fair with the A button, and the second fair with Cstick. I dunno why.
 
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Leeyam

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 2, 2014
Messages
101
Location
Auckland, New Zealand
NNID
leeyamnz
Hey PP, as you've got really good even though you've had to play by yourself a lot, how were you able to develop your punish game? I'm playing against ai most of the time and I find that when I go to tournaments I don't have the muscle memory/reactions to punish accordingly which is really vital with Marth. Can you think of any way to practice your punish game without playing other people?
 
Joined
Aug 6, 2008
Messages
19,346
One might still prefer certain means of address in a less sensitive setting. But, to me its not like PPMD is that much different from Dr. PP. Althought, I suppose there might be something with Dr. Pepper on the Dr. PP thing though.
 

Dr Peepee

Ancient Light
Moderator
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
27,630
Location
Raleigh, North Carolina
it's about esports, but i also wanted to personally change it lol. call me whatever you like!

leeyam, take CPUs of varying levels and hit them. observe their DI. think about what you can do to follow up and also think about how they could adjust and what that DI would be like. you can test this out by also watching matches on Youtube and critique the combos, plus it can give you combo ideas in the first place!
 

RedmanSSBM

Improving My Process
Joined
Apr 11, 2013
Messages
1,744
Location
Greensboro, NC
Is there a Marth matchup guide anywhere? I want to know what to do as Marth vs. Spacies. I know chaingrabbing them is good, especially on FD (there's a flowchart for that after all). I know powershielding vs. Falco is really helpful to get him to stop lasers. Should I just try to make a wall with Marth's fairs? I'm not really sure where to start.
 

net1234

Smash Ace
Joined
May 15, 2013
Messages
738
Location
SLC Utah
Is there a Marth matchup guide anywhere? I want to know what to do as Marth vs. Spacies. I know chaingrabbing them is good, especially on FD (there's a flowchart for that after all). I know powershielding vs. Falco is really helpful to get him to stop lasers. Should I just try to make a wall with Marth's fairs? I'm not really sure where to start.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Daf_Dqod1HoMj7L26ITeUM-xKUKhfxh2vJLWOl2N0C8/edit
the definitive marth guide to everything do exactly as it says always @ Hydrargyrum Hydrargyrum read this. it will help you get better very quickly. this guide really shud be spammed all over the boards so people cant miss it, it helps so much with all the basics

so i am trying to push my game farther by adding pivots to my arsenal so are there any more guaranteed set ups i gain by pivot fsmashing? i feel like i get a lot better followups on fthrow vs peach and puff but im sure thats DI dependant. anything specific i might be able to suprise people with besides that?
 
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