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net1234

Smash Ace
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May 15, 2013
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You absolutely have to be swinging your sword if she's spamming projectiles, at least to protect yourself. If you always wait until after she DAs or dsmashes, yeah, you should be DDWD grabbing those, but the problem is you can't wait to grab those options when she's spamming stuff in your face unless the Samus is bad and goes for random attacks all the time. I obviously don't think Samus can beat Marth just with projectiles, DA, and dsmash spam, but for me personally, trying to get a grab is the last thing on my mind in that situation. I'm more focused on hitting with dtilt or a spaced aerial so she is forced to do something (at which point the desperation DA and dsmash tend to come out and THEN you can grab her).
if samus is spamming in ur face then u shud punish it, when i fight samus i try to hug them really close so i can punish missile attempts, if they knock u away sure u have to hit the missiles but you should be able to get back in pretty fast
 
Joined
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1) If any one person knew exactly how to do this and could execute it, they'd be the best in the world at this game already. That is the definition of a perfect offense. :3

2) Well, in order to "punish", the other player has to do something wrong (big assumption) or you have to trick them into doing something wrong and have a reliable answer for it. Really, the best ways to do that seems to be the two things you stated are viable in neutral - d-tilt and grab. I was thinking about something similar to what you said, where I've heard different people say "o yea boii, marf is super aggro" and/or "Just let them approach you. Don't have fun, just wait.". In all honesty, this quote from DN works fairly well.

"You can't ever win if you're always on the defensive. To win, you have to attack."

Put more into smash terms, you cannot WIN if neither player ever approaches (We don't want Brawl, yo). However, by the same token, if you want to win, you need a reliable approach, and the only two things that are pretty viable are...wait for it...d-tilt and grab EEEEEYYYYY. This of course relies on the assumption that players are perfect, which they are not and can never be since they would need a reaction time of 0. That is good news however, because it just means there is more variance and ambiguity, aka, tricking your opponent. This just leads into mix-ups. All I can really say about that is to have a tricky dash dance or do an M2Killer.


tl;dr: Yo, read it.
1) I would think that a person might be able to have a theory, but lack the ability to execute it. More likely is that Marth simply lacks the tools to force an advantage onto people, but I really do not know.

2) When you bring up tricking your opponent or really anyone who says something akin to making people respect your options I have a really hard time buying that as being a great long term solution. To me, I feel like you shouldn't rely upon trying to get your opponent to act in certain ways because they will never act how you expect them too 100% of the time. Instead, it seems far more reliable to generate situations with Marth that you can either control perfectly or give you plenty of power to decide after your opponent does something. In situations like a tech chase or being offstage this seems very easy to see. The problem I am seeing is what to do with my time explicitly in neutral to convert into that strong advantage/control.

I suppose with Marth though there really is no iron clad method you can follow simple because he doesn't have that power to do so. In which case, I suppose you have to rely upon playing the opponent.
 

Crispus

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1) I would think that a person might be able to have a theory, but lack the ability to execute it. More likely is that Marth simply lacks the tools to force an advantage onto people, but I really do not know.

2) When you bring up tricking your opponent or really anyone who says something akin to making people respect your options I have a really hard time buying that as being a great long term solution. To me, I feel like you shouldn't rely upon trying to get your opponent to act in certain ways because they will never act how you expect them too 100% of the time. Instead, it seems far more reliable to generate situations with Marth that you can either control perfectly or give you plenty of power to decide after your opponent does something. In situations like a tech chase or being offstage this seems very easy to see. The problem I am seeing is what to do with my time explicitly in neutral to convert into that strong advantage/control.

I suppose with Marth though there really is no iron clad method you can follow simple because he doesn't have that power to do so. In which case, I suppose you have to rely upon playing the opponent.
I used to think that Marth was a fairly aggressive character, but the more I examine his kit, I just keep seeing that Marth suffers from a lack of approach options. Pretty much anything he does offensively in neutral except for spaced d-tilts is fairly punishable (especially against, say, :sheikmelee: and :jigglypuffmelee:), and more often than not, I find myself getting more of my kills from successful anti-approaches than just straight guns blazing kills. He simply just doesn't have that "get in quick, perfect shine pressure" option of a couple choice characters. What this really leads me to believe is that Marth is a much more defensive character, and should be played as such. His dis-jointed hit box offers him some of the best options in the game to effectively block off any approach if properly spaced. Coupled with his pretty solid punish capability, I'd say we've got a character. I think it would help a quite a bit more if we looked at some common scenarios and what Marth should be doing in them / can do to pressure his opponent, but I don't have time for that right now, so I'll leave it at this.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
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I opened a fortune cookie today and it said this:

"One does not have to attack in order to be aggressive. The most effective aggression is often the most passive.
Like taking space while dashdance camping."

I was surprised how specific it got.
 
Joined
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I opened a fortune cookie today and it said this:

"One does not have to attack in order to be aggressive. The most effective aggression is often the most passive.
Like taking space while dashdance camping."
Well, its precisely this which does not make much sense anymore. Without some sort of an attack your dash dance is silly and doesn't mean squat. You can wait out Marth until he runs himself into a corner, then just straight up come in with some sort of aerial on his dash back. Or straight up chase him down on the dash back until it runs out of space on the stage. Though this really only on characters like Fox, Falcon, Sheik, and Marth who can keep up with him in some regard on dash speed. Other characters can just disrupt your little running about with projectiles such as Samus, Doc, Falco, ICs, and some other characters.

In which case this does not seem a very appealing strategy. Nor does actually making an attack since his methods seem in effective. So, again, is there some sort of middle ground to follow or must you put up with the sort comings of his character in neutral.
 
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Crispus

Smash Rookie
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Well, its precisely this which does not make much sense anymore. Without some sort of an attack your dash dance is silly and doesn't mean squat. You can wait out Marth until he runs himself into a corner, then just straight up come in with some sort of aerial on his dash back. Or straight up chase him down on the dash back until it runs out of space on the stage.
I opened a fortune cookie today and it said this:

"One does not have to attack in order to be aggressive. The most effective aggression is often the most passive.
Like taking space while dashdance camping."
It all kind of comes down to your Dash Dance game, and by that I mean observing what the opponent is doing, how your spacing is, and if you can punish(approach) the enemy from where you are or for what he/she has done. Dash dancing/threatening with his range, like Bones0 said, is the most effective tool that Marth has in neutral.

If it helps, you can use 4 scenarios to kind of summarize the different neutral options and what to do against them:

Attack
1} Aggressive Offense

2} Passive Offense
3} Aggressive Defense

4} Passive Defense
Defend

1) Aggressive Offense
Fairly straight foward. This is the kind of "f*** it, i'm goin' in hard" style that sacrifices defense and playing safe to just go for all in attacks. This is also the easiest for Marth to deal with since he can pretty effectively block off approaches.

2) Passive Offense
The "cautious attack" kind of deal. A little harder for Marth to deal with, but this is the "apply careful pressure and stay on offense" kind of plan. This sort of strategy usually revolves around the opponent making the "correct" decision.

3) Aggressive Defense
Mostly revolves around allowing opponents to make the first move and punishing it, or forcing them to do something stupid/bad by encroaching on the edge of their space. Works most of the time if the opponent does go in first, but loses to getting out camped. This is where I think Marth thrives at.

4) Passive Defense
The complete opposite of the first, a case in which the opponent does not approach. allowing/forcing opponents to approach and then dealing with whatever is thrown at them. Ideally, Marth would be here, but he has no tools to force his opponent to come to him.

An example playstyle of each (Tentative) would be:
1.Mango
2.Peepee's Falco
3.M2K
4.Armada (ish)/Fox vs Puff

Now, of the above cases, Marth beats out the offensive ones (assuming he plays it correctly). The last two are what Marth struggles with, due to the poor man's approach kit. TBH, I can't answer this
I just do not understand how he can force his opponent into those situations where his punish begins.
because I don't think there is a legitimate answer for it. The only thing I can think of would be aggressive DDing, but if you go too far in, its considered an empty approach (which usually goes just oh-so well). The next step would be something along the lines of spaced d-tilt poking or grabbing since those are his safest neutral options, but even then, if they block it/sidestep, you're in a nice combo position for them. That's why earlier I was saying the best offense you can really have in this case is to be tricky. 20XX is a lie, and no one can ever get there. That is, imho, the only reason all characters are still relatively viable. If you want proof, go look at M2K bop some scrubs with his Pichu, one of the worst characters in the game, and definitely worse than Marth. At the end of the day, if you wanna play Marth and win, you have to play your opponent, and remember that he/she is a human, not a computer. Marth might not be able to succeed in the perfect setting, but the perfect setting will never happen, and thus, I can still sport an awesome blue cape on my character.

Now, if you wanna talk about ways to trick your opponent to get in, we can discuss that all day long :p
 

Bones0

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Well, its precisely this which does not make much sense anymore. Without some sort of an attack your dash dance is silly and doesn't mean squat. You can wait out Marth until he runs himself into a corner, then just straight up come in with some sort of aerial on his dash back. Or straight up chase him down on the dash back until it runs out of space on the stage. Though this really only on characters like Fox, Falcon, Sheik, and Marth who can keep up with him in some regard on dash speed. Other characters can just disrupt your little running about with projectiles such as Samus, Doc, Falco, ICs, and some other characters.

In which case this does not seem a very appealing strategy. Nor does actually making an attack since his methods seem in effective. So, again, is there some sort of middle ground to follow or must you put up with the sort comings of his character in neutral.
Marth has a great neutral grab game and great attacks for hitting anyone who isn't shielding. If you DD near someone, they are at risk of being swatted at any given moment. They can shield, but then they're at risk of getting grabbed. They can attack, but then they're at risk of getting DD grabbed or swatted with a giant sword. Obviously it isn't this simple vs. another human who is trying to do the same things or, like you said, employing the use of projectiles, but it doesn't change the fact that taking space is a much safer way of threatening the opponent than attacking. At the end of the day, if you DD near someone, they are going to do SOMETHING. Even if they don't, you can effectively consider standing still as something. It doesn't mean you should never attack the same way you shouldn't always attacking immediately. It's going to be based on what your opponent is doing and where they are exploitable. If they are using a laggy projectile like Doc's pills, the advantages of attacking tend to start outweighing the advantages of DDing.

If the root of this discussion is still about how aggressive you should play Marth, then there's not going to be any neat conclusion. Melee is constantly evolving so while aggressive swordplay may be gdlk in one era (OG Ken), DD camping may take over in the next era (OG M2K). I think the balances of risk and reward from punishment, importance of stage control, player-specific tendencies, and tons of other really abstract variables come into play and determine what is "optimal", so devising a general guideline about how aggressive or defensive one should be ultimately doesn't make much sense. Aggression is a really useful lens to view Melee's neutral game through, but I would hardly consider it to be the only relevant aspect. It's not like there is some perfect amount of aggression that will yield the best results consistently. You'll always have the element of yomi where you can do "random" stuff that may be increasingly risky, but it's still possible. As long as people are limited by their reaction time, players will always have to deal with mixups like rising fair vs. run up grab because you simply can't defend against everything. The difference between top tiers and low tiers is that low tiers often lose to everything, not that top tiers can counter everything.

My rant game is really on point today.
 
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Bones0

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The only thing I don't agree with is rising fair being a good mixup to runup grab :D
I never meant to suggest it was a good mixup. Just that it IS a possible mixup. If they never shield because you always run-up grab, you could theoretically just start using rising fair instead. I think that over time, the risk reward of a rising fair mixup isn't very good for Marth, but if the metagame comes to a point where people never shield when Marth dashes in front of them, then it would obviously become really good. If they only shield 1 in 100 rising fair approaches, you should keep doing it. If they start shielding more, then run up grab becomes better. I chose this ridiculously simplified mixup to demonstrate the overall complexity of Marth's neutral. If people think you have to DD until the opponent does a bad attack, then they probably aren't thinking in terms of mixups like that. This is sort of inspired by M2K telling me himself he likes to view everything in Melee as mixups. In a game where one good read can cost you a stock, you have to be able to vary your options while still covering your opponent's options safely and efficiently.
 

Dr Peepee

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Time to try this again
@Anyone
@ Dr Peepee Dr Peepee

Question
In general, what should Marth's strategy be in this game overall? Additionally, what actions should one be taking to get those results?

Experience
From my own perspective I have been seeing a variety of opinions on how Marth should be played. For the longest time my driving factor has been to play as optimally as I possibly could. Its been a very helpful mentality in analyzing what options should I be using or not using in a variety of situations. For example, attempting to react to tech chases is far more successful means of playing than simply calling out random reads. Things like this. Overall, I would say this mentality has been very good for improving one's ability to punish better.

However, it has lead me to running circles around myself in how to win a neutral setting. Running around the stage is not going to do any good if you never actually attack. Eventually you will just run yourself into a corner and lose ground putting yourself in a bad situation where Marth cannot easily recover. To put it in another way attempting to play extremely non-committal (never throwing out a move) only works when your opponent is willing to just keep attacking you without reserve.

Ideas
Its been said a number of times to play marth more aggressively. Yet, I do not understand how Marth can play aggressively at all when all of his options it seems are terrible. I suppose I should mention now that when someone says to play aggressively it means to me that Marth needs to be making attacking moves (grab, tilt, smash, aerial, etc). If this is what people mean I do not understand. Most of his moves cannot be reliably used in neutral. To me, when I choose to attack in neutral it means to attack first while my opponent still has a variety of options available to them such as dodge, shield, attack, jump, etc. With that in mind most of his moves are indeed terrible. I cannot use Ftilt and expect the move to be safe against the threat of CC, shield, dodge, or even other grounded attacks. There are only two options I would consider viable to use in neutral (before my opponent can act) and they are Dtilt or Grab. Other moves are viable, but generally it is no longer in neutral when that happens. Your opponent might be shielding or in the air or in the middle of a tech situation or being edgeguarded or on a platform.

Summary
Maybe someone might be getting off track on what I would like to figure out. My goal with this post is to figure out how to force or set-up my opponent into situations where I win. Marth has a really good punish game like other characters in this game. I just do not understand how he can force his opponent into those situations where his punish begins.

As I stated before running around the stage being non-committal has never helped me force those situations. Being aggressive from my point of view does not make much sense with Marth as his options seem rather weak. So, if anyone has an idea of how to legitimately force people into my punishes I would very much like to hear it.
Optimal play is a series of generalities that work for any character. what is optimal at more specific situations or vs certain players will vary based on past experience or conditioning. in other words, optimality becomes less certain and changes. Optimality is a good building block but it can be constricting if followed blindly.

About Marth playing aggressively, you need to consider Marth using movement aggressively. Often swinging is risky for Marth, so to establish a threat of attacks/counterattacks then move dangerously/aggressively/threateningly is to put much pressure on the opponent. This about moving with intent instead of moving to set up your next attack and not considering how you get there or how to make the opponent surely get hit by your attack.
 

Beat!

Smash Master
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Good **** at SKTAR, PP! I knew you could do it.

Also, your Marth is looking sicker than ever. Thanks for the study material. :)
 

Dr Peepee

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I care more about expressing myself well while trying to win. It's sort of the same thing, but feels much better and leads to better play I've noticed =)
 

Dr Peepee

Ancient Light
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expressing yourself is like.....

it's like how you want to show your love for the game in your moves. it's how you interact with the opponent. it's how you show respect for competition and the feeling it gives you. it's hard to describe, but it's like art to me. a good way to understand this, I think, is to develop good movement. good movement is a good way to outright manipulate and interact with the opponent. this allows you to let your intent influence them. in other words, you express yourself and they express their own selves in response. it's like a dance.

I'm not sure if that helps but I can try something more eloquent if need be. This is quite important to me so I hope people can understand what I am trying to get at.
 

Beat!

Smash Master
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how do i fight shiek on small stage like yoshi
I actually like playing against Sheik on YS! The neutral game can be a bit scary because it's rather tender and short-lived on this stage. Her dash attack covers like half the stage, and trying to block it pre-emptively (shield/CC) is unreliable since it makes you vulnerable to grab mix-ups.
With the above in mind it's extremely important that you're ready to challenge her from the get-go. Dtilt is a godsend here because its ability to bully Sheik off the ground is even greater than usual; on larger stages Sheik will fairly often have the option of responding to dtilt pressure by simply retreating and regrouping while staying grounded, where as on YS even the slightest retreat can make her (or well, anyone) end up getting cornered.
Dashdancing is almost never a bad option for Marth in neutral but the inability to realistically dtilt immediately out of it is more noticeable here compared to other stages, so keep that in mind.

Punishment:
Putting Sheik on one of the side platforms (usually by way of uthrow) is cool because it helps you link combos together at those percents where her awkward combination of weight and falling speed would usually let her escape. Uairs are excellent as always, and it's harder than usual for Sheik to DI them in a way that avoids strong finishers (fsmash/up-B) because doing so will generally put her off stage fairly quickly.

Anti-punishment:
Well... getting grabbed by NTSC Sheik sucks, lol. It's been a while since I played NTSC but I generally try to DI the dthrow to a side platform because at least it makes her have to work a bit for the follow-up.
Shielding and CCing works well against basically everything else but like I said earlier, if you're too obvious/pre-emptive about it then she'll just grab you.


what's the best way to deal with a laser camping falco?
Consistent powershielding helps a ton, but with or without it, patience is key. Realize that from Falco's perspective, his options as you close in on him can be boiled down to:
A. Retreating further,
B. trying to get around you and continue camping from the other side, or
C. counter-attacking

Now, A isn't viable for long because it'll quickly put him in a corner.
B will usually be in the form of him going to platforms which can be difficult to challenge directly because of his ridiculous full jump, but you don't necessarily HAVE to punish it immediately. Take advantage of the complete ground control you now have and make it as inconvenient as possible for him to get back down.
There's also the possibility of him trying to roll past you, but that's risky as ****. Still, keep an eye out for it because it's essentially a free grab if you're prepared for the roll.
C tends to be the most commonly picked option and the main reason you need to stay calm. Throwing out an attack desperately as soon as you get close enough is often going to be playing right into his hand. You out-range his entire non-laser moveset with several of your moves so the pressure to close the distance will eventually be transferred over to him (generally speaking this happens when you're close enough to be able to punish attempted lasers but he's too far away to reach you with anything else directly). Abuse your superior range (fair/ftilt/dtilt/nair) and be prepared for grab opportunities.
 
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Jim Morrison

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Hey PP, just read your interview on Liquid, really interesting stuff. I enjoyed reading the part about how you kept your mind on the match at the moment and not think about winning the tournament. I wanted to ask some more about that because I think this is one of the most important aspects of Smash not related to direct Smash...ing...

How do you keep yourself focused on the match? More so, how do you regain your personal focus? It seems quite easy to stay in your flow when winning, but when losing, it's very easy to lose control of your thoughts.
In the interview, you mentioned this about playing Mango:
"You can watch in the video and see where I sit up and I think for a minute: "What can I do differently?" and I come back down and I proceed to take, what I feel, a was pretty commanding momentum shift and take the match back from him."
This was pretty pivotal as I feel that Mango would have taken the set if he could take that game. I'm really wondering what goes on at that moment where you have to turn it around. Is this what you could the clutch factor? Managing to turn the flow back in your favor after being down for a bit.

A more practical example, you're in losers bracket and in possibly your final match (down 0-1/0-2). I am just unable to keep thinking about the match, how do you not get distracted and retake the match?
 

Bones0

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I am just curious how you can play vs. M2K or other players who are emo/feeling down on themselves. No one likes to win like that, but you and Mango never seem to be thrown off by it but also never seem like jerks who hate M2K. Last time I played someone who was in a bad mood because they lost their previous set, I had a really hard time focusing and lost. I felt like if we were playing online instead of in person I would have destroyed him because I wouldn't have been so distracted and felt bad for him.
 

Dr Peepee

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Hey PP, just read your interview on Liquid, really interesting stuff. I enjoyed reading the part about how you kept your mind on the match at the moment and not think about winning the tournament. I wanted to ask some more about that because I think this is one of the most important aspects of Smash not related to direct Smash...ing...

How do you keep yourself focused on the match? More so, how do you regain your personal focus? It seems quite easy to stay in your flow when winning, but when losing, it's very easy to lose control of your thoughts.
In the interview, you mentioned this about playing Mango:
"You can watch in the video and see where I sit up and I think for a minute: "What can I do differently?" and I come back down and I proceed to take, what I feel, a was pretty commanding momentum shift and take the match back from him."
This was pretty pivotal as I feel that Mango would have taken the set if he could take that game. I'm really wondering what goes on at that moment where you have to turn it around. Is this what you could the clutch factor? Managing to turn the flow back in your favor after being down for a bit.

A more practical example, you're in losers bracket and in possibly your final match (down 0-1/0-2). I am just unable to keep thinking about the match, how do you not get distracted and retake the match?
Competing is not just about the game. We are people too ;)

I focus by occupying my conscious brain on smaller details such as my laser(when it is out), or my position relative to my opponent. These things give my highly refined subconscious brain the info it needs to execute on my organized and rehearsed gameplan. This, I think, is the most effective way to utilize one's mental energies for ultimate focus(train often and theorywork often to build a subconscious framework then focus on smaller details to tap into that framework in a match.)

The flow of the match is partly decided by willpower(or testosterone, or motivation, whatever you call it) and partly by skill level(but we're both good so that doesn't matter as much lol), and partly by training and by instinctive reflexes and gameplan. If I alter my reflexes and gameplan in the time it takes to respawn and fuel it with intense desire to win, then even if one has trained more than I have I can still overcome them assuming they are not too much more skilled than I am. Truthfully, I have not trained so much lately but have refined my thinking and understanding processes more. This allows the training I do to payoff more, which will benefit me tenfold when I train as much as my competition.

Thoughts like losing are what creep in when you do not focus on the game in your example. This is your conscious mind roaming freely. In that example, I would suggest to think of respecting your opponent and being excited for the challenge(instead of anxious, relabeling is a good skill here) and then redirect your conscious mind to gameplay elements that clue you into the match.



Bones: It has affected me in other sets with him tbh, but now I am getting better and better at using my conscious mind to focus on gameplay elements. I think also "okay he does not want to play anymore. I must hurry and take advantage of this and finish him off. If I do not, he will suffer longer and also I may go easy on him and then he will get hyped up when the crowd supports his comeback." I do not think it through fully like that but I think something like "take advantage now or else" and continue focusing that energy into the game.

I hope this helps you both =)
 
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Competing is not just about the game. We are people too ;)

I focus by occupying my conscious brain on smaller details such as my laser(when it is out), or my position relative to my opponent. These things give my highly refined subconscious brain the info it needs to execute on my organized and rehearsed gameplan. This, I think, is the most effective way to utilize one's mental energies for ultimate focus(train often and theorywork often to build a subconscious framework then focus on smaller details to tap into that framework in a match.)

The flow of the match is partly decided by willpower(or testosterone, or motivation, whatever you call it) and partly by skill level(but we're both good so that doesn't matter as much lol), and partly by training and by instinctive reflexes and gameplan. If I alter my reflexes and gameplan in the time it takes to respawn and fuel it with intense desire to win, then even if one has trained more than I have I can still overcome them assuming they are not too much more skilled than I am. Truthfully, I have not trained so much lately but have refined my thinking and understanding processes more. This allows the training I do to payoff more, which will benefit me tenfold when I train as much as my competition.

Thoughts like losing are what creep in when you do not focus on the game in your example. This is your conscious mind roaming freely. In that example, I would suggest to think of respecting your opponent and being excited for the challenge(instead of anxious, relabeling is a good skill here) and then redirect your conscious mind to gameplay elements that clue you into the match.
You are reminding me quite a lot of Umbreon right now. Speaking about concepts and abstractions by using ambiguous concepts and abstractions lol
 

Leeyam

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Hey guys!

Just wondering, is a spaced falling fair safe on shield? Like, as an approach.

It's just that my two approaches are either that or Dtilt. Sometimes they shield my fair and then grab me, so I'm wondering if it's a bad option or if my spacing just sucks.
 

Life

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Hey guys!

Just wondering, is a spaced falling fair safe on shield? Like, as an approach.

It's just that my two approaches are either that or Dtilt. Sometimes they shield my fair and then grab me, so I'm wondering if it's a bad option or if my spacing just sucks.
Approaching in general is my weakest point, so I'm also interested to see what the good players have to say about this. (Usually I just platform camp until they do something stupid.)
 

AppleAppleAZ

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Ayy Zeee
I have a rather specific question that hopefully you all could help me with.

Almost every single time I play a Marth or Samus (on final destination or any open stage without platform protection) there is a point at low to mid percent (or even sometimes at higher percents) where I upthrow, but it puts them in this zone where either:

All of my aerials will sour spot if I act immediately, and I'll get reversed on after my first hit.

Or

I wait and try and take position/threaten to force them to burn a resource (bomb stall/side b or DJ) but end up respecting them too much and losing the chip war because I'm not getting enough off of my conversions.

So, is there a key to juggling that I'm just not seeing? How to I effectively cut off space against characters with large air steer and floatiness without putting myself in a position that overextends if there's no platform to protect me from any incoming reversal. Do I just have to work harder against these characters and win the neutral game 20 more times?
 
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net1234

Smash Ace
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May 15, 2013
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Hey guys!

Just wondering, is a spaced falling fair safe on shield? Like, as an approach.

It's just that my two approaches are either that or Dtilt. Sometimes they shield my fair and then grab me, so I'm wondering if it's a bad option or if my spacing just sucks.
fair is safe on shield if u space it. you can also fair->spotdodge or fair->dashin/away up close and they cant shield grab you either

So getting back on stage as marth can be tricky, i usually go for the waveland which works most the time but ibe been experimenting with dancing blade from the edge which often does a pretty good job of forcing my way on seeing as the 2nd hit has more range than the fair and the 4th hit shield pokes incredibly well, anyone have any thoughts on this? i understand its kinda gimmicky but i wonder if its a legit gimmick
 
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what would make my words more specific?
Well, the topic is answering the question of how does one keep focus.

"I focus by occupying my conscious brain on smaller details such as my laser(when it is out), or my position relative to my opponent. These things give my highly refined subconscious brain the info it needs to execute on my organized and rehearsed gameplan. This, I think, is the most effective way to utilize one's mental energies for ultimate focus(train often and theorywork often to build a subconscious framework then focus on smaller details to tap into that framework in a match.)"

To me I get confused on a variety of things you mentioned. What are smaller details? What about your laser are you focusing on? Were you talking about how often the laser has been making it mark, getting powershielded, or perhaps the height of it? Similar thing about the position what about this do you care about? Subconscious framework? These are "big" words I suppose, but to me it has little meaning with such littler background details. In this respect, the answer you give (at least to me) is not a good answer if I cannot understand what meaning you are trying to put behind it. The only thing I believe I have gotten for certain out of this paragraph was you talking about focusing on smaller details. What exactly they are or once noticed what you do with them is another mystery. In this way, you are answering some concept by using more concepts that need explaining still. At least to me.

"Thoughts like losing are what creep in when you do not focus on the game in your example. This is your conscious mind roaming freely. In that example, I would suggest to think of respecting your opponent and being excited for the challenge(instead of anxious, relabeling is a good skill here) and then redirect your conscious mind to gameplay elements that clue you into the match."

So, again you seem to be answering the initial question of "how do you keep focus in a match?" But, as in the first paragraph your answer seems a bit ambiguous. What do you mean by respecting your opponent? Does this mean giving them the needed respect on say their punishes? Or perhaps you mean not thinking of yourself as being better or worse than your opponent, but to instead ignore such thoughts? Now, the last thing would be what gameplay elements. There are a multitude of things I believe you could quantify as gameplay elements. Anything from DI, characters, stages, position of various objects, or perhaps something else I am not thinking about in the same way as you.

I think I am being a bit anal about this lol But, to me it gets rather stressful when you ask question about something and the answer given leaves more confusion than it does clarity.

I suppose another example would be something I was looking for with Marth earlier. Often its said to have some sort of gameplan. The thing is that I have no idea what people mean by a gameplan. The only thing I have thought about was I need to deny anything my opponent does. But, how do I achieve that goal? So, I think something about aggression versus defensive play as a solution since its mentioned so often. However, this is still a confusing solution since I have no idea what fully quantifies as an aggressive or defensive action and doesn't help me make decisions about what actions I should be making in a match.

Earlier you said this:
"About Marth playing aggressively, you need to consider Marth using movement aggressively. Often swinging is risky for Marth, so to establish a threat of attacks/counterattacks then move dangerously/aggressively/threateningly is to put much pressure on the opponent. This about moving with intent instead of moving to set up your next attack and not considering how you get there or how to make the opponent surely get hit by your attack."

This did not get me any closer to teaching me what decisions to make in a match. I still have no idea what quantifies as aggressive movement from your point of view if you are not swinging the sword or grabbing. If aggressive movement is nothing more than say simply getting closer to your opponent, then it sucks that this sort of strategy will not work on all opponents because not everyone will care about you getting closer. Unless there is some sort of conditioning attempt going on in a match which again is a person dependent thing.

Okay, I have have ranted way too much. Point being I just remembered Umbreon usually answering questions with more abstractions that would not be well understood uniformly to several people at once. I believe each person would have reached a different conclusion. Recently, I simply thought you were reminding me of what Umbreon tended to do.
 
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Dr Peepee

Ancient Light
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Well, the topic is answering the question of how does one keep focus.

"I focus by occupying my conscious brain on smaller details such as my laser(when it is out), or my position relative to my opponent. These things give my highly refined subconscious brain the info it needs to execute on my organized and rehearsed gameplan. This, I think, is the most effective way to utilize one's mental energies for ultimate focus(train often and theorywork often to build a subconscious framework then focus on smaller details to tap into that framework in a match.)"

To me I get confused on a variety of things you mentioned. What are smaller details? What about your laser are you focusing on? Were you talking about how often the laser has been making it mark, getting powershielded, or perhaps the height of it? Similar thing about the position what about this do you care about? Subconscious framework? These are "big" words I suppose, but to me it has little meaning with such littler background details. In this respect, the answer you give (at least to me) is not a good answer if I cannot understand what meaning you are trying to put behind it. The only thing I believe I have gotten for certain out of this paragraph was you talking about focusing on smaller details. What exactly they are or once noticed what you do with them is another mystery. In this way, you are answering some concept by using more concepts that need explaining still. At least to me.

"Thoughts like losing are what creep in when you do not focus on the game in your example. This is your conscious mind roaming freely. In that example, I would suggest to think of respecting your opponent and being excited for the challenge(instead of anxious, relabeling is a good skill here) and then redirect your conscious mind to gameplay elements that clue you into the match."

So, again you seem to be answering the initial question of "how do you keep focus in a match?" But, as in the first paragraph your answer seems a bit ambiguous. What do you mean by respecting your opponent? Does this mean giving them the needed respect on say their punishes? Or perhaps you mean not thinking of yourself as being better or worse than your opponent, but to instead ignore such thoughts? Now, the last thing would be what gameplay elements. There are a multitude of things I believe you could quantify as gameplay elements. Anything from DI, characters, stages, position of various objects, or perhaps something else I am not thinking about in the same way as you.

I think I am being a bit anal about this lol But, to me it gets rather stressful when you ask question about something and the answer given leaves more confusion than it does clarity.

I suppose another example would be something I was looking for with Marth earlier. Often its said to have some sort of gameplan. The thing is that I have no idea what people mean by a gameplan. The only thing I have thought about was I need to deny anything my opponent does. But, how do I achieve that goal? So, I think something about aggression versus defensive play as a solution since its mentioned so often. However, this is still a confusing solution since I have no idea what fully quantifies as an aggressive or defensive action and doesn't help me make decisions about what actions I should be making in a match.

Earlier you said this:
"About Marth playing aggressively, you need to consider Marth using movement aggressively. Often swinging is risky for Marth, so to establish a threat of attacks/counterattacks then move dangerously/aggressively/threateningly is to put much pressure on the opponent. This about moving with intent instead of moving to set up your next attack and not considering how you get there or how to make the opponent surely get hit by your attack."

This did not get me any closer to teaching me what decisions to make in a match. I still have no idea what quantifies as aggressive movement from your point of view if you are not swinging the sword or grabbing. If aggressive movement is nothing more than say simply getting closer to your opponent, then it sucks that this sort of strategy will not work on all opponents because not everyone will care about you getting closer. Unless there is some sort of conditioning attempt going on in a match which again is a person dependent thing.

Okay, I have have ranted way too much. Point being I just remembered Umbreon usually answering questions with more abstractions that would not be well understood uniformly to several people at once. I believe each person would have reached a different conclusion. Recently, I simply thought you were reminding me of what Umbreon tended to do.
Good reply! I now see I'll have to basically write term papers to explain all of this stuff I'm working on haha.

For this answer, I will go and respond to each of your individual points and see if that helps =)

Smaller details are very basic but minor factors to consider. Basic in the sense that they will pretty much always be present and are necessary to play but minor in that they do not tap into the full match. So I chose lasers for that reason!

I understand much of what there is to focus on regarding lasers and go over it often. I just observe my laser. I do not make any sort of extrapolation about it or guess at its mark. I should be good enough through training and thinking to know how to place it. I just need to observe it and my subconscious will work it out according to my training. This is less effort intensive and more effective than over exerting myself.

The subconscious framework is just training and muscle memory but also ingrained theory I have learned and rehashed over time. This is what needs to be solid before you can stop exerting so much conscious energy every match.



For the next paragraph, respecting the opponent quite literally means to acknowledge their skill. Without them, I could not be pushed and also see their potential. It is an improvement in thinking to respect them imo. This removes lots of mental barriers if you can do this.

Gameplay elements is again about basic yet minor things, as in the previous example. I used position in the last paragraph because spacing will always be a key variable to note. The more theory and training devoted to positioning and understanding positioning, the more you only need to look at your opponent to decide what to do next.



That other question and concern is valid. Speaking of how to play Marth optimally will require much more definition and essentially a how to play Melee at high level guidebook haha. I would think there is no easily accessible shorthand for this unless you already understood much of what I speak about, but maybe I could try that sometime.



Actually, my other answer DID give you what you wanted, but you didn't ask the followup question so you stayed frustrated. =)

Moving toward the opponent IS aggressive(usually.) Everyone MUST feel aggressive intent when this is done. How people respond is different, but when you begin testing to see how they respond(they must respond because they cannot react at that distance when you move in) you see that people usually attack or defend(or some other expression of the fight or flight response.) This leaves you information about how to move in on them in the future, and when moving in or moving away is appropriate.

Thank you for posting and reminding me to define my terms more often. I hope this helps better!
 

ACDC

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Messages
234
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So here's an interesting question I've been thinking about. Since it is said that Marth kills either at 70% or 150% unless he gets a hard read, would a player using one of the two Links be better off bombing themselves a bit to survive longer at certain percents?
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Moving toward the opponent IS aggressive.
Moving toward the opponent IS aggressive.
Moving toward the opponent IS aggressive.
Moving toward the opponent IS aggressive.
Moving toward the opponent IS aggressive.
Moving toward the opponent IS aggressive.
Moving toward the opponent IS aggressive.
Moving toward the opponent IS aggressive.
Are we good here? No?

Moving toward the opponent IS aggressive.
Moving toward the opponent IS aggressive.
Moving toward the opponent IS aggressive.
Okay good.

Seriously though.

Moving toward the opponent IS aggressive.
 
Joined
Aug 6, 2008
Messages
19,346
Good reply! I now see I'll have to basically write term papers to explain all of this stuff I'm working on haha.

For this answer, I will go and respond to each of your individual points and see if that helps =)

Smaller details are very basic but minor factors to consider. Basic in the sense that they will pretty much always be present and are necessary to play but minor in that they do not tap into the full match. So I chose lasers for that reason!

I understand much of what there is to focus on regarding lasers and go over it often. I just observe my laser. I do not make any sort of extrapolation about it or guess at its mark. I should be good enough through training and thinking to know how to place it. I just need to observe it and my subconscious will work it out according to my training. This is less effort intensive and more effective than over exerting myself.

The subconscious framework is just training and muscle memory but also ingrained theory I have learned and rehashed over time. This is what needs to be solid before you can stop exerting so much conscious energy every match.

For the next paragraph, respecting the opponent quite literally means to acknowledge their skill. Without them, I could not be pushed and also see their potential. It is an improvement in thinking to respect them imo. This removes lots of mental barriers if you can do this.

Gameplay elements is again about basic yet minor things, as in the previous example. I used position in the last paragraph because spacing will always be a key variable to note. The more theory and training devoted to positioning and understanding positioning, the more you only need to look at your opponent to decide what to do next.

That other question and concern is valid. Speaking of how to play Marth optimally will require much more definition and essentially a how to play Melee at high level guidebook haha. I would think there is no easily accessible shorthand for this unless you already understood much of what I speak about, but maybe I could try that sometime.

Actually, my other answer DID give you what you wanted, but you didn't ask the followup question so you stayed frustrated. =)

Moving toward the opponent IS aggressive(usually.) Everyone MUST feel aggressive intent when this is done. How people respond is different, but when you begin testing to see how they respond(they must respond because they cannot react at that distance when you move in) you see that people usually attack or defend(or some other expression of the fight or flight response.) This leaves you information about how to move in on them in the future, and when moving in or moving away is appropriate.

Thank you for posting and reminding me to define my terms more often. I hope this helps better!
I recall you used to make really large posts about stuff anyway. Of course, size does not matter at all. A person can be very descriptive and avoid ambiguity with the right choice of words. But, I would think that trying to quantify abstract stuff can be hard to do in few words unless you know the right descriptors.

Again, I still feel like an *** for trying to be nit picky about describing concepts in detail, but trying to get over that barrier in understanding from say your point of view as literally a top player compared to my own experience I feel requires that sort of extra attention to the finer points.

Okay, let me try again with what I am trying to figure out.


Before you and others gave me the general idea that Marth does not possess the ability to play a purely defensive game. By this I mean never committing to an attack first, but simply letting the opponent attack first. Instead the Marth player needs to establish first the idea that he can potentially counter anything you do. I will use Fox as the basis for examples. If Fox comes at you with an aerial, you can have the stage to dash away from him to catch the landing lag. If Fox runs at you you have the ability to throw in a sword at him. I assume that after doing these "counter" actions you can start to put yourself at risk by going for commitments with things like grab or downtilt. However, you still have to maintain the threat that whatever Fox does could be countered.

This is a summary of my attempted understanding of a big picture idea with Marth. Would you say this "framework" or "game plan" is sufficient? If yes, then the next things I would need to figure out are how to implement this strategy. If my framework idea is wrong, then I really need to reevaluate stuff still until I can have an adequate goal to work towards that will help guide my decision making.



So here's an interesting question I've been thinking about. Since it is said that Marth kills either at 70% or 150% unless he gets a hard read, would a player using one of the two Links be better off bombing themselves a bit to survive longer at certain percents?
Marth does not care what percent you are are at. By Y/Link blowing itself up the player puts them self's at an automatic disadvantage which Marth basically gets a free shot at you. Then, he can simply proceed to juggle your stock until you die and you are left hoping your opponent is bad enough to mess up for you to get back down.
 
D

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Guest
This is a summary of my attempted understanding of a big picture idea with Marth. Would you say this "framework" or "game plan" is sufficient?
Not quite. What you're really trying to do with marth is establish positional advantage such that you can react if you need to, but eventually you will get the opponent either way. so here's a better example:

you run at the opponent to take up stage and to be aggressive and then you do dtilt because it's low risk and a good conversion opportunity if it hits. fox in response to you dashes away for a DD, and in response you IASA dtilt and dashgrab his turn-around after his dash away (still taking as you run after fox).

but let's say you dtilt and fox jumps instead, now you can cover him with fair/upair instead. either way you're using your aggression to take stage from the opponent to eliminate options.

we go into this much more when i'm not at work.
 

ChivalRuse

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
8,413
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College Park, MD
So what did we learn today, class?
The more theory and training devoted to positioning and understanding positioning, the more you only need to look at your opponent to decide what to do next.
What you're really trying to do with marth is establish positional advantage such that you can react if you need to, but eventually you will get the opponent either way.
Yep, that's basically it.
 
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