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Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

ACDC

Smash Journeyman
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May 15, 2014
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234
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Quebec Tabarnak
Marth does not care what percent you are are at. By Y/Link blowing itself up the player puts them self's at an automatic disadvantage which Marth basically gets a free shot at you. Then, he can simply proceed to juggle your stock until you die and you are left hoping your opponent is bad enough to mess up for you to get back down.
I think you underestimate Young Link's camping game. Throw a few boomerangs and bombs to get the opponent to retreat then boomerang + bomb yourself. Since Marth can combo better at certain percents it could potentially destroy those opportunities for him. Same with any other character who's better at killing you at specific percents

I'd like to hear what PP has to say about this
 
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ChivalRuse

Smash Hero
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Marth has good answers to Young Link shenanigans. Marth can eventually force Young Link to jump (it's Young Link's only true escape option, since his roll is terrible), and we all know what happens when Marth gets you in the air.
 
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itsbme

Game on!
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Aug 16, 2008
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I don't know if anyone was watching Super Smash Sundays last night, but wow I was impressed with Hyprid. He was doing so well and beat some of the pros there. Forgive me, I have not heard of him, but I was impressed. I can't wait for his videos to be uploaded.

Also, forgive me, everyone must be tired of me by now, but what does everyone think of Ken's Marth lately? His edgeguarding I hear has been mediocre, although he did good enough to beat Westballz last night at SSS. If he can fix that he'll be able to win more i'm sure. But anyways, what do you guys think about his play lately, and what good/bad things he does?

KDJ seems to be having success with Marth too. Also interesting his team mate, Ken, loses to a lot of people that KDJ seems to be able to beat.

Also, i'm moving soon, so for now I won't be actively playing against people, but in a few months i'll be active in netplay again, so expect me to be asking for input.
 

ACDC

Smash Journeyman
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Marth has good answers to Young Link shenanigans. Marth can eventually force Young Link to jump (it's Young Link's only true escape option, since his roll is terrible), and we all know what happens when Marth gets you in the air.
Another one who does not understand my post maybe my engrish is not good enough. Re-read my posts
 

ChivalRuse

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I understand your post ACDC. I was just replying to the general idea of the matchup. I would have to agree with Mow that Marth can just hover outside of the projectile hitboxes and swipe at you with relative safety without being too concerned about combo breakers.

@ itsbme itsbme : Hyprid has always been that guy who was almost good, but always lost to Okami. Um, I think that Ken has a problem where he is too "hopeful". He "hopes" that you won't be good enough to avoid his f-smashes, or his whimsical fairs that he throws out at terrible times. To me, though he was once the iconic Marth, his playstyle is too focused on doing set things and not enough about reaction and playing the opponent mentally. Just my humble opinion.
 

ACDC

Smash Journeyman
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Messages
234
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Quebec Tabarnak
I understand your post ACDC. I was just replying to the general idea of the matchup. I would have to agree with Mow that Marth can just hover outside of the projectile hitboxes and swipe at you with relative safety without being too concerned about combo breakers.

@ itsbme itsbme : Hyprid has always been that guy who was almost good, but always lost to Okami. Um, I think that Ken has a problem where he is too "hopeful". He "hopes" that you won't be good enough to avoid his f-smashes, or his whimsical fairs that he throws out at terrible times. To me, though he was once the iconic Marth, his playstyle is too focused on doing set things and not enough about reaction and playing the opponent mentally. Just my humble opinion.
Ok but I'm not interested in the Marth vs Y/Link matchup. I'm talking about the bombs.
 
Joined
Aug 6, 2008
Messages
19,346
Not quite. What you're really trying to do with marth is establish positional advantage such that you can react if you need to, but eventually you will get the opponent either way. so here's a better example:

you run at the opponent to take up stage and to be aggressive and then you do dtilt because it's low risk and a good conversion opportunity if it hits. fox in response to you dashes away for a DD, and in response you IASA dtilt and dashgrab his turn-around after his dash away (still taking as you run after fox).

but let's say you dtilt and fox jumps instead, now you can cover him with fair/upair instead. either way you're using your aggression to take stage from the opponent to eliminate options.

we go into this much more when i'm not at work.
This is where its going to be difficult to visualize with all the options to take.

I see some alternative options to deal with that make me hesitant about say going for a Dtilt or not. The most of which is ill timing of you trying to take space because Fox has retreated, then comes at you with an aerial or gets on a platform as you swing your sword. Now, your position has reversed a bit. Either something you can react too or not. Or perhaps the call for Dtilt was wrong. Or maybe its something you cannot react too and simply have to take that as a risk when you try to take the space.

I think you underestimate Young Link's camping game. Throw a few boomerangs and bombs to get the opponent to retreat then boomerang + bomb yourself. Since Marth can combo better at certain percents it could potentially destroy those opportunities for him. Same with any other character who's better at killing you at specific percents
From how I see it is that Marth will simply prevent you from getting back down from the air or back to the stage. He does not have to be like Sheik and get guaranteed hits off each successive hit. Anytime you come down from the air he gets to put a sword between you and the ground. Y/Link (or really any character) have nothing to prevent Marth from hitting you with a sword. In this regard, percentage is irrelevant. It might simply take longer before your stock is finally taking. Plus, I am fairly certain that Marth could block a boomerang attack and approach you while you have a bomb. When you asplode you take damage and hitstun. Time for Marth to take advantage of. This is why I say avoid blowing yourself up. Either way, its helps Marth swing fewer times before you get KO'd.

So what did we learn today, class?

Yep, that's basically it.
Except that the how to establish your position and what constitutes as a good position for you compared to your opponent is a bit hazy to me. At least when I consider all that Fox might be able to do at the time I attempt to do such and such action. I would like to think that if my opponent is in such a position relative to me I always have a best choice that I should choose. What that is is to be decided. Or, there might simply be things that Marth cannot do and I have to take the inherent risk associated and attempt some low risk action.
 
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ChivalRuse

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@ E Elyssa Xey Hexen Hm. Well, there are a couple of succinct positional configurations that can be lumped in the absolute category of being tactically advantageous. The most obvious one is getting your opponent offstage. A more cerebral situation: cornering your opponent by the ledge. Also, getting your opponent above you. In this latter scenario, though your opponent still has a list of options for getting back to terra firma, their options are more limited and their movements are more fixed, while you have extended reaction windows for walling out or otherwise controlling your opponent as they come down. Think of Obi-Wan Kenobi in Star Wars Episode III, as he confidently tells Anakin to give up because he has the "high ground".

An even more complicated position that you can put your opponent in (that pertains to the neutral game) is getting them in shield. This opens up opportunities to frame trap them or bait out certain actions from them.

Basically, any position that you can put your opponent in, that you would rather not be in yourself, is probably good for you.
 

Big Daddy Josh

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 17, 2014
Messages
76
While we are on the subject of Link/Young Link; I just had a game with a really good Link player on FD yesterday, I won, but the match was by no means easy. I do not understand the match-up at all and I'm not a great player(but I'm working on it!), but getting through all their projectiles is a pain in the ass, not to mention that I have no idea how to edge guard them at all.

I was able to adapt to the projectiles a little bit by getting some power shields on bombs or waiting for him to mess up, allowing me to get in and get some damage. As far as killing him I pretty much relied on a strong hit and hoped it would KO or hit him far enough so that he could not recover since I'm not sure i can out range his Up+B and do not know to punish the grapple recovery.

Any Link/YL match-up tips regarding to getting through his projectiles and edge guarding would be appreciated.
 

Bones0

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To punish grapples, just hold the ledge after/right before the sweetspot (make sure you have intangibility when they grapple so you don't get gimped by it). They will pop up above the ledge and you dair them.
 

ChivalRuse

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To punish grapples, just hold the ledge after/right before the sweetspot (make sure you have intangibility when they grapple so you don't get gimped by it). They will pop up above the ledge and you dair them.
Nah. Good players will wall jump. Watch any video of Plup.
 

AppleAppleAZ

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Congrats to PPMD on 4th. I have no doubt that you'll come back stronger at evo! Thanks for giving Marth a chance and for so much new material to study.
 

Leeyam

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Might just be me not watching enough Marth vids but PP seems to use Nair a lot more frequently where other Marths would Fair, I wonder what the thinking behind that is.

Also I'm very interested in M2K's decision to go falcon against Marth on FD, can anyone explain it?
 

Beat!

Smash Master
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His Marth doesn't cut it anymore against PP's Marth and while his Sheik can definitely still keep up, he lost last time they played that matchup on FD.

And well, Falcon's simply good vs Marth on FD. If you know the proper combo tree off of grabs then you're looking at a huge chunk of damage and often a knee to finish it off, and it's very difficult to DI out of it.
 
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Bones0

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Idk why PP didn't just go Falco vs. M2K's Falcon. I know his Falco was playing off, but there's no way he would lose vs. M2K's Falcon. lol
 

Magnawolf

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Aug 19, 2007
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What's the most important things in marth ditto as far as the neutral game goes? Also can you sweetspot up b in ditto?
 

Clebus

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Well that's why I said don't get grabbed but i suppose it is a good idea to say how. so thank you and yes
 

Magnawolf

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I always f-throw in marth dittos. So you're saying up-throw is better at center stage? Is up-throw uair guaranteed?
 

CyberZixx

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I loved seeing PP's marth. That game where he junked Mango's fox was so good. I'd love to see more of the Marth at Evo.
 

Leeyam

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Why f-throw when you can get them up the air and start juggling them?

*oh woops, didn't read your post properly. I think uthrow to uair isn't guaranteed but it's great if you space well.

And good dash dancing is a lot more than just not getting grabbed. It helps you tons with stage pressure and movement in general, spacing them dtilts and stuff.
 
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CyberZixx

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I like upthrow more too with the excpetion of of you get a grab mid stage on say BF or DL. But that is why I strike those stages. Seriously, why do Marth players strike to BF?
 

Leeyam

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Might be character specific, I think generally people would ban at least YS and FD, Marths generally DL. Then if you're up against a Sheik, who's regarded as quite powerful on FoD, you might prefer BF. BF isn't a bad stage for Marth imo, just not a good one.
 

CyberZixx

Smash Lord
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I feel the same way. BF is not bad but not ideal. Even vs Shiek i'd rather foD though. Better than having her camp the BF platforms. me for anyway.
 

Magnawolf

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Why f-throw when you can get them up the air and start juggling them?

*oh woops, didn't read your post properly. I think uthrow to uair isn't guaranteed but it's great if you space well.

And good dash dancing is a lot more than just not getting grabbed. It helps you tons with stage pressure and movement in general, spacing them dtilts and stuff.
You can't juggle Marth that easily except on FD because you can land on a platform. F-throw just seems to have more potential.

If you watch PewPewU vs Mango at Lanhammer 2013 they always f-throw. It just seems intuitively better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRidsr_aknU

Even watching PPMD vs M2K on Yoshi's at MLG, they seem to be f-throwing a lot more than up-throwing. There seems to be a percentage (around 30%) where they will upthrow instead but generally they f-throw.

I think f-throw is great because you get them closer to the edge which is very important in Marth dittos. Also there seems to be more options (tech chase, d-tilt, f-smash, f-tilt etc) than up-throw since there's only a certain percentage range where you get follows off up-throw.
 
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AppleAppleAZ

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I have to say that sometimes I've found that throwing them near an edge to techchase them with down throw/ forward throw can be just as strong as upthrow in certain situations. Especially since upthrow is not guarenteed. However you may pry more information from them with upthrow.
 
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Leeyam

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Definitely agreed since it gives them way less space and hugely limits their options (which is why I think this happens on YS much more than any other stage). However I'd probably prefer a fair or dtilt to just get them off the stage rather than keep techchasing, especially with Marth's strong edgeguarding.
 

Clebus

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half of the stuff you get off of fthrow doesnt work if they DI down and away. you'll never get fsmashes after maybe 10%
that's why there were so many fthrow -> nothing in that lanhammer set
upthrow gets you underneath them. marth loves being bottom and hates being above.
unless platforms are in the way,
which they arent
since you're at fd
 

Beat!

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@throws in dittos
-Dthrow is fine if it corners the opponent and/or sets up a favourable tech chase.

-Both Fthrow and dthrow are fine if they send the opponent off stage.

-Immediate f/dthrow is worth considering when tipper fsmash starts to kill. Especially if them DIing the throw correctly still gives you some kind of positional advantage. Pseudo-option selects, yo. Still, use it as a mix-up rather than a go-to move or your success rate with it will drop like a stone after the first couple of times.

-Fthrow regrab/techchase is... sort of worth considering at low percents if you want to adjust your stage positioning a bit and tack on a little more damage and you really feel that uthrowing immediately would be awkward to follow up. But probably not. Proper DI kinda ruins on-stage fthrows.



Otherwise uthrow. ****'s crazy good. @Magna, Marth juggles himself quite easily on platform stages as well. You obviously have to take more factors into account compared to FD but it's still a non-fastfaller whose only truly relevant aerial against good juggling is dair, which has a ton of end-lag.
 
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