Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[T-R3X]

True, but Kadano recently discovered that you have 20 frame buffer window on the wall jump if you use x/y, which makes it a lot easier to do and then you can also focus on hitting the wall with sdi.

Can you quote/link the post? If you're talking about the opening post in his thread then you're misinterpreting it.

 

[GreenAce]

Is there a thread showing who you can and can't combo off an upthrow and at what percent? It's pretty tedious figuring this out for the whole cast, just looking for dat shortcut

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

The best thread of that description would be the Kadano thread which is stick'd. However, it only covers top/high tier characters somewhat. But, uthrow is pretty good regardless of your ability to get guaranteed follow-ups. But, Marth has enough disjoint that you can block any direct attempts at getting down by force. The only issue is timing and being in the position to prevent them from getting back down. If you swing too early, you might get air dodge'd through or 2nd jump -> fastfall aerial onto your whiffed Utilt attempt.

 

[oukd]

yea kadano's thread is the business, most of what youre looking for should be in the 1st post

he recently did a uthrow followup compilation on falcon

 

[squirrels4ev]

I fought a good Link (Mofat) for the first time in tournament yesterday. The three things I remember having serious trouble with against Link were his projectiles, pressuring his shield, and getting down from the platforms. The first two issues were related mostly to my spacing (I think). If I was too far away, I would get hit with a boomerang or he would pull a bomb and be able to hit me with that later, which would lead to nair, uair, or even dair at higher percents. I tried to get closer to him, but when he would shield I found myself hard pressed to get the grab or poke it. I would get shield grabbed if I came at him on the ground or Up-B'ed OOS if I tried to get above his grab with SH fairs. Upon searching this thread, I found this bit of information:

Link's grab is kinda slow and if he misses then he's laggy forever so he can't do it much. Just get closer to him and then use later aerials to pressure his shield or grabs so he can't shield grab safely.

To make sure I understand, this makes his shield grabs unsafe because if he goes too early, he misses you, if he goes too late, he gets hit by fair, and if he tries to wait it out, I can just grab him as soon as I land, correct? Wouldn't he still be able to Up-B me OOS safely if I tried this at above maybe 30%? I think the platform problems I was having were a result of a combination of nerves and poor stage choice, but I'll have to look at the footage to be sure, since I can only remember getting comboed on them. I think the higher, wider, more spaced apart Dream Land platforms would have made it easier to get away from Link, but I didn't want to be projectile camped so I counterpicked Battlefield, my most comfortable stage.

I tried looking around briefly for some videos to study last night but the only recent sets I could find were J666 vs PewPewU from KoC2 and Tai vs Germ from TNE. J666 likes to play a lot closer and without as many projectiles as Germ so I focused on Germ's set instead. I noticed just shielding worked well against projectiles, so I think I was probably jumping too much. I'll post the video if/when it gets uploaded to Youtube within the next couple of days, since you can't view the Twitch VOD without subscribing.

Edit: The video has been uploaded. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JkvWs8gMA0

I guess I never really asked the question I came here to ask, I just tried to identify the problems I was having. Does anyone have any advice on what to do against a sort of campy Link?

 

[DJ _ICE]

You should be dashdancing a lot more. Try not to spotdodge/airdodge too much with Marth and dash dance aggressively against Link. Remember you can shield out of a dash dance to block projectiles, then wavedash OOS. Link has a hard time against rapid pressure given his slow attacks and will smartly camp as much as possible to avoid that. Once he is pressured, he'll go to into shield and this part means a lot in the matchup. If you're able to get grabs/pokes with well spaced fairs or dtilts on Link's shield, you'll have a tremendous advantage.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img577/4028/7vu.gif

Here's a gif from Kadano's thread that "illustrates the “perfect” spacing. At no point in this animation could Link have hit the Marth with up-B or grab." Not sure if this is possible in an actual match but this should give you a picture of what shield attack should look like.

Hope this helps

 

[Life]

I guess if this is gonna be the video critique thread for a while, I could link my matches from Fight Pitt...

 

[squirrels4ev]

Here's a gif from Kadano's thread that "illustrates the “perfect” spacing. At no point in this animation could Link have hit the Marth with up-B or grab." Not sure if this is possible in an actual match but this should give you a picture of what shield attack should look like.

I guess I really should have read the entirety of that thread. It amazes me that there's data in there relevant to such an uncommon matchup. I was starting to think during my match that dtilt was shorter than Link's Up-B. I guess I need to work on my spacing a lot more. I think I need to go for spaced dtilts more instead of trying to start juggles in neutral with utilt. I'm getting too close.

You're definitely right about my dashdancing. I think I neglected it because I was confused by the matchup and was trying to focus on how I could beat what Link was doing. I've only been playing a couple of months so I still have to think about it most of the time. I think the one time I tried cactus dashing in game one I just got dash attacked during the stall which made me feel silly.

 

[net1234]

im sure this has been addressed before but i cant find it so how do you deal with a very very campy fox? marth has no projectiles so the lasers force you to approach and fox usually wins that. dtilts help but they only add like 10% and a drill shine grab pummel upthrow upair does so much more which he can do a good amount of the time when i miss a grab or something more risky.

 

[knightpraetor]

lasers are only about 10% damage before you gap close and they can no longer fire safely due to your threat. lasers are almost irrelevant outside of the big stages. Don't be fooled into thinking you are forced to be the aggressor. Practically anything that gets predicted in melee is punishable, so don't get predictable just because of a few little lasers

 

[net1234]

lasers are only about 10% damage before you gap close and they can no longer fire safely due to your threat. lasers are almost irrelevant outside of the big stages. Don't be fooled into thinking you are forced to be the aggressor. Practically anything that gets predicted in melee is punishable, so don't get predictable just because of a few little lasers

That makes sense, so basically advance and force him into a corner (because he runs away) and take advantage of him trying to recover stage control?

 

[knightpraetor]

yeah. just think of it as "you better get those lasers cause when i touch you, you will be dead in 10sec."

realistically marth gets half to an entire stock of grabs, and aerials give > 50 % chance of leading into grab or putting the opponent off stage. dtilt gives you advantage situations in which if they roll they may get grabbed, so most foxes jump and use platforms..which typically leads to 30-50% min as well. When marths lose to fox players, it's not because of the few lasers that hit. ...Unless you're letting him run away and spam lasers without staying close enough to threaten.

 

[net1234]

yeah. just think of it as "you better get those lasers cause when i touch you, you will be dead in 10sec."

realistically marth gets half to an entire stock of grabs, and aerials give > 50 % chance of leading into grab or putting the opponent off stage. dtilt gives you advantage situations in which if they roll they may grab so most foxes jump and use platforms..which typically leads to 30-50% min as well. When marths lose to fox players, it's not because of the few lasers that hit. ...Unless you're letting him run away and spam lasers without staying close enough to threaten.

soumd advice. i need to convert better too so ill keep that in mind when i play

 

[Tee ay eye]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTru4cfYnkQ#t=4m55s

this stock was pretty nice

 

[Dr Peepee]

I really like my older Marth because I was willing to play around more with him. Those DJs and dashes in were quite nice to see.

 

[net1234]

What do y'all think of the sheik vs marth matchup? they say its like 60:40 but it feels like 65:35 autocombos for days

 

[Bones0]

What do y'all think of the shiek vs marth matchup? they say its like 60:40 but it feels like 65:35 autocombos for days

LOL Good one.

Wait, you're not serious, are you?

 

[net1234]

LOL Good one.

Wait, you're not serious, are you?

Assuming said marth can't DI or space for ****.

Edit: and sheik camps like a mofo

 

[Smooth Criminal]

You can't assume either of those things, though.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Beat!]

I'd say 55-45 NTSC and 50-50 PAL, with the addendum that the matchup overall is a bit easier to learn for Sheik and that it's more solidly in her favour when neither player plays it correctly. Basically, it looks worse than it actually is until the Marth really gets his **** together.

 

[net1234]

I'd say 55-45 NTSC and 50-50 PAL, with the addendum that the matchup overall is a bit easier to learn for Sheik and that it's more solidly in her favour when neither player plays it correctly. Basically, it looks worse than it actually is until the Marth really gets his **** together.

Im not 100% sure how the numbers work so im sure i made it sound a lot worse than i meant to. I just know jiggly is 60:40 for her and i felt shiek was a little harder than that

 

[Beat!]

Yeah, matchup numbers kind of suck because everyone has their own interpretation of what they actually mean, but for me it basically goes:
50-50: Even (*gasp*)

55-45: Slight advantage (absolutely no need for a secondary unless you simply refuse to play matchups that aren't even or better)

60-40: Advantage (picking up a secondary is sort of understandable, but it's probably a better idea long-term to just learn the matchup instead)

65-35: Significant advantage (doable, but picking up a secondary is a very reasonable decision)

70-30: Huge advantage (should probably pick up a secondary if you're interested in winning tournaments)

75-25 and beyond: One-sided (pick up a secondary if you're interested in winning tournaments)

 

[Dr Peepee]

yep, without defining ratios before speaking we def aren't on the same page when discussing matchups.

I define matchup ratios not in terms of needing secondaries but in terms of how often one at top level should win a set in that matchup. It's similar to needing secondaries, but also covers stage information and ties into needing a secondary from that point imo.

EX 60-40= Advantage: should rarely, if ever, lose a set in this matchup.

 

[net1234]

yep, without defining ratios before speaking we def aren't on the same page when discussing matchups.

I define matchup ratios not in terms of needing secondaries but in terms of how often one at top level should win a set in that matchup. It's similar to needing secondaries, but also covers stage information and ties into needing a secondary from that point imo.

EX 60-40= Advantage: should rarely, if ever, lose a set in this matchup.

you beat m2ks shiek with your marth but it looked like a bit of a struggle that first set, what do you think the matchup is? It seems like one of the worst matchups in the top tiers except jiggly and peach

on a side note what was up with that chain cheesing?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I'm assuming you are talking about Xanadu. Given small community constraints, I actually did not have much good Sheik practice prior to playing M2K so I had to learn a lot playing him that first set.

I would say the matchup in this metagame is closer to 60-40(perhaps a ratio in between this and 55-45), but as more Marth techniques and better punishes and such are developed I could see that change.

No comment on the chain lol

 

[Life]

I would say the matchup in this metagame is closer to 60-40(perhaps a ratio in between this and 55-45)

ok I'm just gonna take a second to be that guy and ask

Do we really need THAT level of precision when talking about this stuff? Especially considering there isn't really a statistical analysis of matchup win rates (AFAIK), which would be semi-useless even if it did exist considering the skill differences between most Smashers?

We have an entire 100-0 scale to use, do we really need 53.7-46.3 or whatever?

 

[Beat!]

I define matchup ratios not in terms of needing secondaries but in terms of how often one at top level should win a set in that matchup. It's similar to needing secondaries, but also covers stage information and ties into needing a secondary from that point imo.

Yeah, I don't define matchup ratios by that metric alone, since it's definitely a bit more complicated than that. I mostly wanted to give an idea of what the numbers could mean in a simple and somewhat clear way.

 

[Dr Peepee]

ok I'm just gonna take a second to be that guy and ask

Do we really need THAT level of precision when talking about this stuff? Especially considering there isn't really a statistical analysis of matchup win rates (AFAIK), which would be semi-useless even if it did exist considering the skill differences between most Smashers?

We have an entire 100-0 scale to use, do we really need 53.7-46.3 or whatever?

I don't really do it, but I leave the option open to anyone who wants to do it.

 

[SpiderMad]

@ Dr Peepee How good are you and top players at doing frame perfect early aerials? Did you know that in PM Marth can do SH Bair Fair/Uair/Dair? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ge25Hj-V6TM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8B9JGwuMhgk#t=96

Do you know of any top players that have small hands? I have a belief that smaller hands holds you back in Smash by a lot.

Do you like your shoulder button hard press/clickers to be really weak/easy to press? Have you ever thought about removing or modifying your shoulder button's springs?

Do you incorporate SDI often into your play? In what situations?

 

[BTmoney]

someone wanna tell me how all the cool marths now are doing retreating double fair or double fair in place?
double fair while moving forward is simple enough

 

[rawrimamonster]

I'm kinda tired as I'm writing this but I'll try to make the most sense of it I can.

My Marth is fairly competent, I can punish, and confirm off combos well, but I seem to have issues staying in a mindset with him to stay consistent and not get punished on the same dumb stuff I've done before, and this seems to be a problem mainly with my Marth, and I get wrecked for it just as much as I wreck.

I never usually ask for advice as I like to figure out my own issues as they come to me, but it seems I cant break a mentality barrier with him or something. I got a lotta ingrained habits from playing against computers for years due to inability to travel, but now that I got the chance to play against people regularly its frustrating me. Would anyone recommend me recording my matches and studying them? Is there a way to approaching breaking habits that I'm not thinking of? Any advice would be appreciated.

 

[net1234]

I'm kinda tired as I'm writing this but I'll try to make the most sense of it I can.

My Marth is fairly competent, I can punish, and confirm off combos well, but I seem to have issues staying in a mindset with him to stay consistent and not get punished on the same dumb stuff I've done before, and this seems to be a problem mainly with my Marth, and I get wrecked for it just as much as I wreck.

I never usually ask for advice as I like to figure out my own issues as they come to me, but it seems I cant break a mentality barrier with him or something. I got a lotta ingrained habits from playing against computers for years due to inability to travel, but now that I got the chance to play against people regularly its frustrating me. Would anyone recommend me recording my matches and studying them? Is there a way to approaching breaking habits that I'm not thinking of? Any advice would be appreciated.

i had a similar problem where i would naturally autopilot when trying to approach or something of that sort, i used marths DD to help break it because while doing it it would remind me of all the options i had and i would pick one from there. i find you really just have to make an effort to think when you play and never let your mind wander.

 

[rawrimamonster]

i had a similar problem where i would naturally autopilot when trying to approach or something of that sort, i used marths DD to help break it because while doing it it would remind me of all the options i had and i would pick one from there. i find you really just have to make an effort to think when you play and never let your mind wander.

It makes sense really, cuz I do autopilot, and sometimes it really works so I get careless. It's just even when I'm paying attention to what I do I still make the mistakes. So maybe it's a mental discipline thing that has to be played out?

 

[net1234]

It makes sense really, cuz I do autopilot, and sometimes it really works so I get careless. It's just even when I'm paying attention to what I do I still make the mistakes. So maybe it's a mental discipline thing that has to be played out?

Well it might just be a play more thing too on top of that. If you do something stupid enough times eventually you'll feel that ache in your soul loathing your own *********** and stop it eventually. I also used to tech flub the short hop from the ledge because i'd try to do it too fast and just ledge hop and sheik would get a free fair/bair on me and it pissed me off so bad that i vowed to never screw it up again. so its a combination of a lot of things im sure but practice and mental presence are the 2 big ones

 

[Dr Peepee]

@ Dr Peepee How good are you and top players at doing frame perfect early aerials? Did you know that in PM Marth can do SH Bair Fair/Uair/Dair? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ge25Hj-V6TM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8B9JGwuMhgk#t=96

Do you know of any top players that have small hands? I have a belief that smaller hands holds you back in Smash by a lot.

Do you like your shoulder button hard press/clickers to be really weak/easy to press? Have you ever thought about removing or modifying your shoulder button's springs?

Do you incorporate SDI often into your play? In what situations?

Oh that's really cool! Didn't know that.

My hands are a little on the small side but it seems to not matter much.

I just learned a certain intensity for the shoulder buttons and practiced it. That simple imo.

 

[SpiderMad]

I just learned a certain intensity for the shoulder buttons and practiced it. That simple imo.

Do you feel that your controllers shoulder clickers get weaker over use though? For all the wavedashing you and people do, don't you feel like you would want it as loose/easy to click as possible or it would get tiring on your finger?

 

[Dr Peepee]

training a lot builds endurance

 

[DtJ SmithZzz]

training a lot builds endurance

DUDE

 

[Bones0]

training a lot builds endurance

How do you play so consistently? Out of all the top players, I feel like you have (by far) the least variance in your game. Do you think this is a direct result of your playstyle, or do you have a way of staying really focused all the time? Some games I am doing 02ds over and over, then the next game I can't even get more than one hit after a grab (or shine for Falco).

 

[Signia]

How do you play so consistently? Out of all the top players, I feel like you have (by far) the least variance in your game. Do you think this is a direct result of your playstyle, or do you have a way of staying really focused all the time? Some games I am doing 02ds over and over, then the next game I can't even get more than one hit after a grab (or shine for Falco).

It could be that you don't adapt. If you don't adapt, and play a certain way every time, then your opponent's adaptation or difference in play from player to player will enough to make you lose and make your play look worse. Not adapting also might mean you're not paying attention to what differences are making your performance suffer, which would also explain why you can't see why you're inconsistent. So, not adapting due to not paying attention to the right things is a reasonable explanation for inconsistency. Another explanation for inconsistency would be high risk, high reward play, but if it were that, the reason for inconsistency would be obvious.

So maybe shift your attention (while you play) to something else. Maybe you're focusing on technique, execution, and option flowcharts more than reading your opponent?