Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Strong Badam]

kadano: yeah, scd has this strange thing where during the first 10 frames you're airborne it's different (more brawl-like). probably to prevent falling through a platform causing you to just land back on that platform again. this is why when you drop through a platform and hit someone with an aerial you're able to land on the platform, you go through hitlag so you go through the 10 frames without falling as far.

good stuff recently btw, this is all cool stuff that i wanted to investigate but realized it would take effort so i didn't.

 

[knightpraetor]

bones and wenbo will be done mastering it by next week probably.

i will probably pick it up in 3 after I see them using it

also, side question. I had an option select I was developing in my head, and I was wondering. if you have the R button held lightly in, can you still L-cancel with L and Z or does it becomes impossible?

 

[oukd]

this would be true for wenbo if he wasnt playing league all the time. and if he read the marth boards at all <_<

also i just tested in dolphin, if you're lightly holding a trigger button you can't lcancel with another button

 

[Kadano]

I’ve started pouring knowledge into ssbwiki because frankly it’s much easier to find than between the 12924+ posts in this thread. While doing so, I noticed some people still believe that up-B is stronger and/or easier to sweetspot with when it’s reversed. So I just want to clarify: It’s not. Here is a short explanation:

Dolphin Slash has three hitboxes¹. They are strong only on frame 5 (the first frame they are active). From frame 6 on, they have low damage and knockback.
Two of these three hitboxes are on Marth’s sword (bone 76), the hitbox at the tip is the sweetspot that deals 13%. Both the inner sword hitbox and the butt hitbox (bone 4) deal only 10% on frame 5.
Direction reversal takes place after frame 5. Thus, reversing it can’t possibly increase it’s strength. It’s like saying l-canceling aerials makes them stronger.
¹Actually, it’s six divided into two groups of three with the first three being exchanged for the second three at frame 6. Because their alignment is identical, I rather see it as the hitbox getting weaker than them being replaced, although strictly speaking this isn’t the case.

Sorry if this was already pointed earlier by someone else in this thread, but I won’t read 300 pages to find out.

 

[BTmoney]

I’ve started pouring knowledge into ssbwiki

It would be nice if the wiki wasn't horrible lol and we could all neatly find good information

 

[Bones0]

I’ve started pouring knowledge into ssbwiki because frankly it’s much easier to find than between the 12924+ posts in this thread. While doing so, I noticed some people still believe that up-B is stronger and/or easier to sweetspot with when it’s reversed. So I just want to clarify: It’s not. Here is a short explanation:


Sorry if this was already pointed earlier by someone else in this thread, but I won’t read 300 pages to find out.

You only had to read 298 pages!

They definitely have the same damage and KB. Let me see if I can figure out a good way to make sure they are the same distance.

If you are pushed all the way up against an opponent, you will get the sourspot hit (10% instead of 13%). Whether you reverse or not is irrelevant.

The sweetspot's range is the same regardless of whether or not you reverse the up-B. If you're going to do either, you might as well do the one where you stay facing forward so if you are too far away, you can at least hit them with the weak hit once you've left the ground. Other than that, the only reason you would want to reverse it is because you're recovering or you want to land on a plat (or avoid landing on a plat).

Aerial up-Bs have less horizontal range!

It would be nice if the wiki wasn't horrible lol and we could all neatly find good information

The solution is a SmashBoards-based wiki that only registered users can edit.

 

[Purpletuce]

That implies that all smashboards users would only post correct things. I think the best solution would be to manually create a thread of information, it has been done for many characters.

 

[BTmoney]

That implies that all smashboards users would only post correct things. I think the best solution would be to manually create a thread of information, it has been done for many characters.

there are ways to deal with that such as applying for posting rights, content subject to approval etc.

 

[knightpraetor]

I’ve started pouring knowledge into ssbwiki because frankly it’s much easier to find than between the 12924+ posts in this thread. While doing so, I noticed some people still believe that up-B is stronger and/or easier to sweetspot with when it’s reversed. So I just want to clarify: It’s not. Here is a short explanation:

Just wanted to ask for clarification, but besides not having any difference in the difficulty of hitting the sweetspot of marth's up b, is there any difference at all in the path the hitbox traverses?

 

[AustinRC]

I'm in the process of making a pivoting tutorial. If you guys could send me any questions you have about pivoting I'd like you to PM them to me please THANKS! The video as a whole should get done within the next two weeks hopefully!

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Yesss

Teach me your dark arts Austin

I've been waiting for this

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I'm in the process of making a pivoting tutorial. If you guys could send me any questions you have about pivoting I'd like you to PM them to me please THANKS! The video as a whole should get done within the next two weeks hopefully!

have you been able to successfully pivot dtilt or utilt yet?

 

[AustinRC]

@ Eryx Vexia - yes and no. I've found a way to do one or the other but it limits other options. Even if you could pivot them there are other great options that don't require such specific timing.

 

[Construct]

Is it true that pivoting smashes with c-stick has a smaller window than with A? I heard that somewhere or other and I've always had a much easier time doing it like that, but I know Austin uses c-stick, and he's pretty much the premier pivoter. I can do them with maybe 50% consistency (more so smashing left than right), but I haven't invested all that time in it yet because I'm more focused on getting my fundamentals up.

 

[Tee ay eye]

pp please bust out your sword guy at zenith

 

[Strong Badam]

Is it true that pivoting smashes with c-stick has a smaller window than with A? I heard that somewhere or other and I've always had a much easier time doing it like that, but I know Austin uses c-stick, and he's pretty much the premier pivoter. I can do them with maybe 50% consistency (more so smashing left than right), but I haven't invested all that time in it yet because I'm more focused on getting my fundamentals up.

yes. there's a (IIRC) 3-frame window during intial dash where if you press A you get a forward smash (because your "dash" input ends up functioning as both the dash and the Smash input for the F-Smash), where as you only have a 1-frame window for doing so with C-Stick.

 

[Demna]

At a doubles match. It was Dr.PP alone vs Mew2king and his partner (1v2). Mew2king was sheik and his ally was fox (Dr.PP was Falco).

I remember PP F-throwing M2K to Fox's Up-B, and they both die as a result.
That was the most epic SSB moment in history...

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

pp please bust out your sword guy at zenith

**** dat and **** u

edit: actually I kinda want to see your marth vs Mango, but only if your falco is getting pwned somehow

 

[BTmoney]

is there a visual cue for when you can begin to let go of the ledge? (is it that greenish circle that appears when you grab the ledge?)

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Each person is different. You should figure out your own.

 

[Deleted member]

i think you should only play falco vs mango.

 

[BTmoney]

Each person is different. You should figure out your own.

What kind of, bad, response is that?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

You'd be surprised how simple a lot of answers really are when it comes to smash.

Such questions as "I am stuck on the ledge how do I get off?" There is no simple answer to that as you are in a bad spot to begin with. If your opponent is doing it right, you'll stay stuck there or dead. I think people already understand what their options are for example with Marth its wavedash, aerial from the ledge, standard ledge options (jump, attack, roll), etc. I assume people already know the options marth has from the ledge. What I think they want is a quick solution to how to get out of a bad spot and the answer is quite simply don't be in that spot to begin with.

So, when you ask for a visual cue its quiet true your ability to move your hands and response time to the ledge will be slightly different than someone else. A newbie has a hard time trying to short hop with fox which means they cannot release their finger off the jump button in 4 or 5 frames. Someone who clearly plays fox very well will have no problems with this. Now suppose you ask for a visual cue on when to release the jump button with fox... Yeah, uhh... it depends upon the person. The visual cue for the newbie will be slightly different for the more seasoned veteran. I suppose you could get someone else's visual cue, but that might not work for you. In the end, its best to work out your own.

To be honest, I do not try to look for visual cues for when to do something with my character. I want to try to avoid looking at my character as much as possible. It ends up being practice, practice, practice with mixing up your timings until you get one that works and you pick up the pace until it doesn't work, then let off.

 

[BTmoney]

You'd be surprised how simple a lot of answers really are when it comes to smash.

Such questions as "I am stuck on the ledge how do I get off?" There is no simple answer to that as you are in a bad spot to begin with. If your opponent is doing it right, you'll stay stuck there or dead. I think people already understand what their options are for example with Marth its wavedash, aerial from the ledge, standard ledge options (jump, attack, roll), etc. I assume people already know the options marth has from the ledge. What I think they want is a quick solution to how to get out of a bad spot and the answer is quite simply don't be in that spot to begin with.

So, when you ask for a visual cue its quiet true your ability to move your hands and response time to the ledge will be slightly different than someone else. A newbie has a hard time trying to short hop with fox which means they cannot release their finger off the jump button in 4 or 5 frames. Someone who clearly plays fox very well will have no problems with this. Now suppose you ask for a visual cue on when to release the jump button with fox... Yeah, uhh... it depends upon the person. The visual cue for the newbie will be slightly different for the more seasoned veteran. I suppose you could get someone else's visual cue, but that might not work for you. In the end, its best to work out your own.

To be honest, I do not try to look for visual cues for when to do something with my character. I want to try to avoid looking at my character as much as possible. It ends up being practice, practice, practice with mixing up your timings until you get one that works and you pick up the pace until it doesn't work, then let off.

Ok what are you talking about in all seriousness? If you wanted to know the context in which I asked the question then ask but moving on from that it was a yes or no question. I was asking about a game mechanic. More specifically I wondered that if in general, across all characters, you could let go of the ledge as soon as the green circle animation plays out. What do I lose for knowing whether or not that is true?

I was simply bored and practicing ledge dashing after firebird stalls or DJ regrabs as Falco. You can feel the difference in how early you can let go of the edge after doing various things before grabbing it. If knowing that is arbitrary, then golly gee I don't care I just wanted to know.

So Falco can ledgedash sooner from a DJ than from an up-B or side-B? This game is so broken...

I don’t understand it completely, but I believe that it’s shape is only changed at specific animation frames in one or more dimensions. Sorry if I forgot to answer you on Falco’s ledgedash, I can confirm that what this Japanese smasher found out is true.
No, that was not was I was saying. Marth can indeed alter his SCDQ by doing different things¹ before grabbing the ledge etc...

 

[commonyoshi]

PP, tell us about this contract you signed with vgbootcamp.

 

[Kadano]

is there a visual cue for when you can begin to let go of the ledge? (is it that greenish circle that appears when you grab the ledge?)

Good question, I’ve asked myself this too recently.
As soon as you grab the ledge, the light blue circle spawns and grows larger and the sound effect is played. I think the wisest choice is reacting to the sound effect because you can still keep eyes on your opponent that way. As soon as the sound and circle effects are played, it takes another 7 frames until you can let go of the ledge. These 7 frames (~120 ms) are a bit less than top human visual reaction times (~130 ms). Mean is about 330 ms, Melee players, being trained for fast reaction and male (both factors correlating with low reaction times) probably average at about 200 ms.
Auditory reaction time is a bit faster (about 80% of the visual reaction times), so that’s another argument to go for the sound and not for the circle flash.

If your auditory reaction time is top 1‰, you might be too fast so if you train yourself to press away when you hear the click sound, you do it too early. I think even if this is the case for you, practicing it for a while will make you automatically delay it a bit anyway.

tl;dr: press away as soon as you hear the clicking sound

 

[BTmoney]

Good question, I’ve asked myself this too recently.
As soon as you grab the ledge, the light blue circle spawns and grows larger and the sound effect is played. I think the wisest choice is reacting to the sound effect because you can still keep eyes on your opponent that way. As soon as the sound and circle effects are played, it takes another 7 frames until you can let go of the ledge. These 7 frames (~120 ms) are a bit less than top human visual reaction times (~130 ms). Mean is about 330 ms, Melee players, being trained for fast reaction and male (both factors correlating with low reaction times) probably average at about 200 ms.
Auditory reaction time is a bit faster (about 80% of the visual reaction times), so that’s another argument to go for the sound and not for the circle flash.

If your auditory reaction time is top 1‰, you might be too fast so if you train yourself to press away when you hear the click sound, you do it too early. I think even if this is the case for you, practicing it for a while will make you automatically delay it a bit anyway.

tl;dr: press away as soon as you hear the clicking sound

Thanks for the auditory tip, I've personally wondered if humans reacted differently through different vehicles/to different stimuli.

 

[SpiderMad]

Found it. I actually refound it randomly from listening to a different Emancipator song and searching them on YouTube. lol

Thanks for letting me know of this guy who rivals Nujabes with awesome music

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

yes. there's a (IIRC) 3-frame window during intial dash where if you press A you get a forward smash (because your "dash" input ends up functioning as both the dash and the Smash input for the F-Smash), where as you only have a 1-frame window for doing so with C-Stick.

So use A for dash back fsmashes and cstick for dash forward?

mmk

 

[Kadano]

No, that window is 3 frames long regardless of using A or C. I’d rather use C because you don’t accidentally charge with it. And you can fsmash backwards with it, but I think fsmashing in the dash direction is more useful.

 

[BTmoney]

No, that window is 3 frames long regardless of using A or C. I’d rather use C because you don’t accidentally charge with it. And you can fsmash backwards with it, but I think fsmashing in the dash direction is more useful.

If you simply dash/DD and push A or the C-stick within 3 frames then...why exactly is this hard? Or is this just underutilized

 

[AustinRC]

Got all the recording for the tutorial done today. Just have to go through and put my pretty voice in! :D

 

[Kadano]

If you simply dash/DD and push A or the C-stick within 3 frames then...why exactly is this hard? Or is this just underutilized

It’s underutilized because it doesn’t have many uses due to fsmash’s slow startup. Situations it might be useful:
• After fthrow if the opponent just barely DIed out of standing fsmash range
• Between two of Falco’s lasers
• For techchasing on a low platform (for example BF’s side platforms, you are standing below a teching opponent. You can cover roll behind you with fsmash backwards and roll in front of you with small step fsmash)

Also, you can only do this by dashing in the direction you are facing. Dashing backwards requires turning around first and you only have one tolerance frame for the smash input that way. During that frame, Marth doesn’t move at all so you have no benefits over a standing backwards fsmash.

 

[FourStar]

i'd like to see ken to start replying to these boards......

 

[CyberZixx]

Ken don't give a flying about the current metagame.

 

[Bones0]

Ken is the current metagame.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Marth isn't quite ready yet. But perhaps it was more of I wasn't ready yet.

I'm very good with Marth in most matchups but I have some things to learn about fighting spacies with him. He has a lot of catching up to do in those matchups it seems. I had to learn a ton playing Mango for a few hours in Marth vs Fox/Falco all of Friday night, and I did, but I'm pretty unhappy with how I felt overall before during and after the tourney.

That just means there is work to be done.

 

[CyberZixx]

While I was hoping to see your Marth, I understand where you are coming. Your falco is better and you wanted to do well in the tournament. Hope to see that Marth at Evo.

 

[BTmoney]

Marth isn't quite ready yet. But perhaps it was more of I wasn't ready yet.

I'm very good with Marth in most matchups but I have some things to learn about fighting spacies with him. He has a lot of catching up to do in those matchups it seems. I had to learn a ton playing Mango for a few hours in Marth vs Fox/Falco all of Friday night, and I did, but I'm pretty unhappy with how I felt overall before during and after the tourney.

That just means there is work to be done.

Regardless, congrats on you becoming my favorite player. That's saying something too since I had that hard M2k fanboyism going on.

 

[Mahie]

What you found looks really useful Kadano.
There should be a thread with techniques like that really, I feel like many players will miss it in here.

Edit : Also, there should be a name for jumping onto the stage and wavelanding back to the edge. So many tricks lack their own name and it's obnoxious to explain sometimes.