Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Construct]

PSing lasers gets you a disgusting amount of mileage against Falcos that aren't prepared for someone to do that to them, and it's still a great (and really easy to learn!) tool against people that are prepared for it. I highly highly recommend removing the light shield for one of your triggers like Mahie always says to; it makes PSing really really free.


On another note, can anyone give me some advice on getting gimped less by Fox? I know that's a bit vague, but when I get cornered by Fox I usually end up crumpling under the pressure and quickly getting shined a few times to my death.

 

[MT_]

I'd figure a falco player will deal with PS lasers once it actually becomes a stronger presence. I don't think anyone is going to bother until they can go to a tournament and constantly keep getting wrecked by powershielded lasers. Your telling people to practice a counter strategy for a thing that still few people do consistently.

It's sort of like hitting a shield on a platform too. Marth could punish a lot of people for hitting his shield while he is on a platform, but no one is going to bother practicing safe shield poking options against a marth on a platform until they start seeing someone dropping from platforms in shield.

You make a good point, but I guess I should mention that the Falco player I linked earlier (Tirno) is my training partner so he has been forced to learn how to deal with PS lasers thanks to me. And I'm not sure why you decided to make the ridiculous analogy (which sounded condescending by the way, not sure if that was your intention) about something that is contributing to the discussion being had. That is, the gains from powershielding and they affect the Falco matchup. Also, Tirno and I have both become really proficient at shield dropping as well do it's funny that you mention shield dropping as another technique that no one should bother to work against because of its rarity.

 

[FrootLoop]

@Construct:
Make sure you do the edge grab when you slide off the edge from shines. Don't side B when fox can react with run off shine. Learn to sweetspot double jump and upB to the ledge, the stage, and the platform. Don't get flustered from the pressure and start giving out freebies. The only real answer is don't get cornered.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

And I'm not sure why you decided to make the ridiculous analogy (which sounded condescending by the way, not sure if that was your intention) about something that is contributing to the discussion being had. That is, the gains from powershielding and they affect the Falco matchup. Also, Tirno and I have both become really proficient at shield dropping as well do it's funny that you mention shield dropping as another technique that no one should bother to work against because of its rarity.

The analogy turned out rather poorly. Too lazy to go back and fix it. Intention was along the lines of "this is an odd remainder to people to prepare for since it happens infrequently."

Not against either of those things for the sake of learning. I think they should be necessary (PS and shield dropping). Its just the vast majority of players don't do it. You will always have a few outliners here and there at random levels of skill pulling off odd technical things while failing in other areas. Not by name, but I recall a few people being proficient at getting PS off of other projectiles in certain match-ups. Or yoshi mains will commit to shield dropping for punishment. A guy I know gets a ton of cancels at the right distance on a falco sideB more than anyone else I have ever seen. But, the vast majority of players don't do those things.

 

[AceDudeyeah]

2 Marths in a ditto spend the neutral game walking to/wavedashing to dtilt and the other one fsmashes you when you try nairing over the dtilt.
What do?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

2 Marths in a ditto spend the neutral game walking to/wavedashing to dtilt and the other one fsmashes you when you try nairing over the dtilt.
What do?

Umbreon response: You tried Nairing in the first place was the mistake.

 

[AceDudeyeah]

Meaning I learned that nairing is bad in a neutral game Marth ditto, but is there nothing else that can be mixed up when you get bored of reciprocating wavedash CC dtilt?

 

[FrootLoop]

if you're actually going to hard read their movement enough to nair over dtlit you might as well just stand still and grab. It's faster, easier, safer, and you get a kill instead of 9% or whatever.

 

[Deleted member]

Umbreon response: You tried Nairing in the first place was the mistake.

lol in a marth ditto no less. technically the first mistake was jumping, the nair was still bad though. you forgot "get fsmashed because you don't know how to play the game". if you're jumping over dtilt you deserve to get killed

if you're actually going to hard read their movement enough to nair over dtlit you might as well just stand still and grab. It's faster, easier, safer, and you get a kill instead of losing outright.

fixed for emphasis. the damage doesn't matter.

 

[Kadano]

2 Marths in a ditto spend the neutral game walking to/wavedashing to dtilt and the other one fsmashes you when you try nairing over the dtilt.
What do?

If your spacing is correct (just out of dtilt range) you can punish with fsmash before dtilt’s IASA frames. Another reason to practice pivot fsmash.

Edit:

My go to options are typically low lasers that can't be PSed (or are extremely hard to PS, but I think if you shoot them low enough Marth can't PS at all) or high lasers that I can run under.

Marth can PS even the lowest of lasers. It’s just much harder as he only has a 1 frame window for them. For higher lasers, he has like 10 tolerance frames if he is crouching, dashing etc.

 

[Xyzz]

Whoa, that sounds so reasonable I might actually bother to learn this lol

 

[Bones0]

If your spacing is correct (just out of dtilt range) you can punish with fsmash before dtilt’s IASA frames. Another reason to practice pivot fsmash.

Edit:

Marth can PS even the lowest of lasers. It’s just much harder as he only has a 1 frame window for them. For higher lasers, he has like 10 tolerance frames if he is crouching, dashing etc.

1-frame window? MUAHAHA! Good thing I can shoot low lasers really consistently. Can't wait to play someone who PSs so I can apply my low-lasers theory with a bit more confidence.

 

[MT_]

Kadano, would you be able to walk me through the criteria for a successful powershield? I feel like the mechanic itself is not very well understood. What are the things that affect ease of powershield, and what are the things that I have to do in order to get a successful one off? As far as I understand, you need to get your shield trigger down within 3(?) frames while the hitbox is within (or on the edge?) of your shield... so does that mean that the character's body in relation to the shield is what determines the amount of tolerance for powershield? Further, does it mean that the smaller shield you have (say from being pressured) the harder it is to powershield?

 

[Deleted member]

1-frame window? MUAHAHA! Good thing I can shoot low lasers really consistently. Can't wait to play someone who PSs so I can apply my low-lasers theory with a bit more confidence.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

If your spacing is correct (just out of dtilt range) you can punish with fsmash before dtilt’s IASA frames. Another reason to practice pivot fsmash.

Melee tech skill in 2030. Pivot dtilt is necessary.

 

[Dr Peepee]

How high before the 10 frame window opens? How low is the 1-frame window? Is this all on dash away or just neutral stand(for the 1 frame, you specified for the other.)

Dang we learnin some Marth and Falco in here.

 

[Kadano]

Kadano, would you be able to walk me through the criteria for a successful powershield?

I’ll try my best. Unfortunately I don’t know / understand Melee’s code on PSing, so all I can do is test and see what works.

I feel like the mechanic itself is not very well understood.

True. The ssbwiki entry is garbage, I can only hope Magus420 will one day illuminate it with his infinite wisdom. Here are two of his posts that are the most knowledgeable read I could find on the topic:
http://smashboards.com/threads/how-to-approach-a-spamming-falco.198083/#post-5544062
It seems this isn’t all about PS’ mechanism, though. For instance, if Falco shoots a laser as low as possible, Marth can PS it if he presses L/R two frames before he’d get hit, but if he presses it one frame before he’d get hit, he does a normal shield. I believe that maybe the inner PS sphere becomes larger or drifts downwards on its second frame, but I can’t really tell as on the second frame the shield animation bubble overlaps the PS and normal shield collision detection sphere.
Frame 1 left, frame 2 right:

What are the things that affect ease of powershield, and what are the things that I have to do in order to get a successful one off? As far as I understand, you need to get your shield trigger down within 3(?) frames while the hitbox is within (or on the edge?) of your shield...

On the first or second frame of a digital (fully pressed down) shield, the hitsphere must connect with the PS sphere. So the window is 2, not 3.

so does that mean that the character's body in relation to the shield is what determines the amount of tolerance for powershield? Further, does it mean that the smaller shield you have (say from being pressured) the harder it is to powershield?

Yes, that is both true. All numbers I have given so far are assuming a full shield.

How high before the 10 frame window opens?

I’ve made a picture that combines all laser heights:

It might seem like the fourth lowest laser hits the crouching Marth, but it actually doesn’t. So, every laser that is at least as high as this 4th lowest one can be crouched under. Oh, and crouching under grants you an 8 frame window (not 10, that was just my guess before testing properly) if you’re standing just under it (again, 4th lowest one).

How low is the 1-frame window? Is this all on dash away or just neutral stand(for the 1 frame, you specified for the other.)

As low as the 3 lowest lasers in the pic above.
This is all on neutral stand.

 

[Purpletuce]

So all of your previous PS data was assuming neutral stand? So a standing Marth has a ~10 frame margin of error for standing PS? What does that make crouching/running back give in terms of margin for error? Does anything help against low lasers, like is dash back Ps particularly effective? I doubt crouching would be, maybe facing backwards, or backwards crouch? (Just throwing out ideas that might move his hurtbox/PS bubble well)

 

[Bones0]

Just looking at dash away PS, I have to believe it's not possible for Marth to PS low lasers. Maybe dashing towards them will make it more reasonable. If the metagame comes to encompass conditioning different dash directions for different laser heights, I'm pretty sure my brain will explode.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Just looking at dash away PS, I have to believe it's not possible for Marth to PS low lasers. Maybe dashing towards them will make it more reasonable. If the metagame comes to encompass conditioning different dash directions for different laser heights, I'm pretty sure my brain will explode.

Dash towards is actually the lasers marth cannot powershield (coming head on aka low lasers). The shield when it pops out is fixed to a certain location on the character frame, so when marth dashes, he leans in super far forward. More than the area for powershielding.

For that very same reason, Dash away is actually the easiest to powershield lasers with since his hurtbox is so far away from the direction of the lasers, you can get very easy powershields this way. However, you obviously cannot convert off a laser hit as easily this way.

So all of your previous PS data was assuming neutral stand? So a standing Marth has a ~10 frame margin of error for standing PS? What does that make crouching/running back give in terms of margin for error? Does anything help against low lasers, like is dash back Ps particularly effective? I doubt crouching would be, maybe facing backwards, or backwards crouch? (Just throwing out ideas that might move his hurtbox/PS bubble well)

Its crouching with such a large window that is actually 8 he said.

 

[Bones0]

Dash towards is actually the lasers marth cannot powershield (coming head on aka low lasers). The shield when it pops out is fixed to a certain location on the character frame, so when marth dashes, he leans in super far forward. More than the area for powershielding.

For that very same reason, Dash away is actually the easiest to powershield lasers with since his hurtbox is so far away from the direction of the lasers, you can get very easy powershields this way. However, you obviously cannot convert off a laser hit as easily this way.

Marth leans forward when he dashes away, but his feet stick out behind him even further making it harder to PS low lasers (if it's even possible, which I don't think it is).

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

You can PS it.

 

[Kadano]

1 frame window btw. Out of run away it’s probably more during those phases where none of his legs are behind him, but I didn’t consider this important enough to bother.

 

[FourStar]

I’ll try my best. Unfortunately I don’t know / understand Melee’s code on PSing, so all I can do is test and see what works.

True. The ssbwiki entry is garbage, I can only hope Magus420 will one day illuminate it with his infinite wisdom. Here are two of his posts that are the most knowledgeable read I could find on the topic:
http://smashboards.com/threads/how-to-approach-a-spamming-falco.198083/#post-5544062
It seems this isn’t all about PS’ mechanism, though. For instance, if Falco shoots a laser as low as possible, Marth can PS it if he presses L/R two frames before he’d get hit, but if he presses it one frame before he’d get hit, he does a normal shield. I believe that maybe the inner PS sphere becomes larger or drifts downwards on its second frame, but I can’t really tell as on the second frame the shield animation bubble overlaps the PS and normal shield collision detection sphere.
Frame 1 left, frame 2 right:

On the first or second frame of a digital (fully pressed down) shield, the hitsphere must connect with the PS sphere. So the window is 2, not 3.

Yes, that is both true. All numbers I have given so far are assuming a full shield.

I’ve made a picture that combines all laser heights:

It might seem like the fourth lowest laser hits the crouching Marth, but it actually doesn’t. So, every laser that is at least as high as this 4th lowest one can be crouched under. Oh, and crouching under grants you an 8 frame window (not 10, that was just my guess before testing properly) if you’re standing just under it (again, 4th lowest one).


As low as the 3 lowest lasers in the pic above.
This is all on neutral stand.

dude where do you get these diagrams.....

 

[Kadano]

I make them using Dolphin, an iso with 16:9 and debug mode access hacks and combine the frames with FastStone Image Viewer and Paint.net (I’m not very happy with Paint.net, but FS doesn’t feature layer combination at all, not to mention lightening mode, so if someone knows a program that does this with less effort / more automation, please tell me!)

 

[Bones0]

-Roommate is randomly playing Hava Nagila on his little phone piano.
-I go online to look up the actual one.
-Find this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHSNZK4Je-Y
-Notice the avatar is the exact same as

-Same avatar as Bones.
-Conclusion: Bones is jewish.

I actually did find it on some YouTube song. I'm going to scroll through the thousands of videos in my history until I find it.

Found it. I actually refound it randomly from listening to a different Emancipator song and searching them on YouTube. lol

I originally heard it in this song.

 

[knightpraetor]

when attempting to waveland on from the ledge, how many frames do i give up if i fastfall instead of just letting go and then waveland on?

in addition, how many frames would i lose if i try to let go and then confirm the let go before wavelanding on? is it possible to have any invuln in either of these two situations?

 

[Kadano]

A frame perfect waveland from the ledge (also known as »ledgedash«) grants Marth 4 frames of invincibility he can use however it pleases him. It does not matter if you let go of the ledge by pressing down or away because fastfall starts on the second frame of falling.
If you press jump one frame later, you lose 1 frame if you don’t fastfall and all 4 frames if you do. The only safe option left is shield.

Also, if you don’t fastfall and press jump 2 frames later than the earliest possible, you have only 1 frame less which leaves you 2 invincible frames. If you jump 3 frames later than asap, you have no invincibility left, just as if you had fastfalled for 1 frame.
All assuming the airdodge is timed perfectly.

If I understand your second paragraph correctly, you’re asking if you can react to the ledge drop with jump → airdodge and still have invincibility. That is not possible, unless your reaction time was 3 frames = 50 ms, which is less than the record as far as I know. Even then, all you could do would be shield; for more options you’d need to react even faster, which is obviously even less possible.

 

[knightpraetor]

A frame perfect waveland from the ledge (also known as »ledgedash«) grants Marth 4 frames of invincibility he can use however it pleases him. It does not matter if you let go of the ledge by pressing down or away because fastfall starts on the second frame of falling.
If you press jump one frame later, you lose 1 frame if you don’t fastfall and all 4 frames if you do. The only safe option left is shield.

Also, if you don’t fastfall and press jump 2 frames later than the earliest possible, you have only 1 frame less which leaves you 2 invincible frames. If you jump 3 frames later than asap, you have no invincibility left, just as if you had fastfalled for 1 frame.
All assuming the airdodge is timed perfectly.

If I understand your second paragraph correctly, you’re asking if you can react to the ledge drop with jump → airdodge and still have invincibility. That is not possible, unless your reaction time was 3 frames = 50 ms, which is less than the record as far as I know. Even then, all you could do would be shield; for more options you’d need to react even faster, which is obviously even less possible.

no, i meant that you can react ot ensure that you pressed down before pressing jump so that you never tournament winner. I was wondering if i lose all my invuln or not in exchange for never winning tournaments.

Did I understand you correctly, you fastfall automatically even without tapping down just by letting go of the edge? that sounds incorrect

also thanks for the help. i didn't even know how many frames of invuln...i would have just said, enough to make me god tier^_^

one of the main reasons i don't like marth as much is because the tightness of his invuln waveland for just a few frames of invuln. tournament winner leads to death against competent opponents...at least with fox/falco if the opponent is not peach/fox/falco/sheik i can often live their hit. Marth is too bad when getting back from the ledge ( i need at least 3 frames of invuln) but the tightness of this technique.

 

[Xyzz]

no, i meant that you can react ot ensure that you pressed down before pressing jump so that you never tournament winner. I was wondering if i lose all my invuln or not in exchange for never winning tournaments.

If I understand your second paragraph correctly, you’re asking if you can react to the ledge drop with jump → airdodge and still have invincibility. That is not possible, unless your reaction time was 3 frames = 50 ms, which is less than the record as far as I know. Even then, all you could do would be shield; for more options you’d need to react even faster, which is obviously even less possible.

Those sound exactly what you're both referring to
Drop down -> react that marth let go -> jump -> airdodge.
If Marth performed some intricate unique movement stuff before letting go of the edge you could react to that. But since he just holds the ledge and one frame later he does not, that's the only clue you get. So every frame you spent looking out for that is one frame less of invul.

 

[knightpraetor]

oh sorry i'm dumb and low on sleep...and about to go to a tourney..but yeah, for some reason i read airdodge and didn't think of waveland as an airdodge. good catch.

can anyone make a gif of how much coverage peach's full hop instant rising upair and sh instant rising upair get? i know i have the hitbox gif, but I'm really curious how low to the ground the hitbox hits

 

[Xyzz]

oh sorry i'm dumb and low on sleep...and about to go to a tourney..but yeah, for some reason i read airdodge and didn't think of waveland as an airdodge. good catch.

Haha, I have those as well. The best thing is how one always feels rather "fine" until one realizes what easy things we fail to spot :D

 

[knightpraetor]

kadano, how much would it cost to get you to make some images of marth wavelanding the ledge so that i can see how far invuln lasts while moving across the stage? I just want to know where invuln runs out in his wavedash while going across with perfect wavedash and with 1-2 dropped frames. Wondering if the 1-2 frame late version ever has any utility

 

[Bones0]

kadano, how much would it cost to get you to make some images of marth wavelanding the ledge so that i can see how far invuln lasts while moving across the stage? I just want to know where invuln runs out in his wavedash while going across with perfect wavedash and with 1-2 dropped frames. Wondering if the 1-2 frame late version ever has any utility

We talked a little bit about this at the tourney, but I would basically just assume your invul is over as soon as you can move out of the WL (done frame perfectly you have 4 actionable frames, so with 1-2 dropped frames you have 2-3 frames of invul, which isn't enough to do anything with except shield and buffer spotdodge). If you don't want to ledgedash into shield, then you basically have to accept that you won't have any actionable invul. Instead of worrying about actionable invul, you should focus on using what invul you have during the ledgedash itself to react to what the opponent is doing and make the best decision from there. People are always mentally preparing the timing of their attack for the end of your invul, so reacting to how they "wind up" to hit you is extremely important with Marth. If a Fox reacts to your ledgedash by FHing, you can suddenly stop worrying about getting grabbed (outside of ridiculous tomahawks lol). As long as you can react to that FH during your ledgedash and you did your ledgedash fast enough to get your shield up before your invul ends, then you can just hold shield and work from there. If the Fox stays on the ground during your ledge dash, you'll have to be a lot more concerned with him grabbing you, so perhaps you will want to buffer a dodge. Unfortunately, Fox could also be fishing for an usmash, so it introduces a ledgedash into shield vs. buffered dodge mixup.

I do think there's a lot of room to explore other ledge options. In particular, I really like the ledgedash in place (like you LH above the stage and WL straight down). Marth's ledgedash goes so far that people have to stay pretty far in stage in order to get a good punish. When they are that far in, however, you can do the ledgedash in place to basically act as a better ledgestand. Can any frame gurus confirm if it's even faster than a ledgestand? I can't imagine it's slower, but idk how much more invul you lose doing the airdodge straight down as opposed to the diagonal airdodge. But anyway, I like the ledgedash in place because it gives you room to work with in between you and the opponent (who was waiting for a full-length ledgedash). After ledgedashing with Marth, you usually feel really smothered. The opponent is on top of you right as your WL lag ends, and your invul rarely lasts long enough for you to do anything by shield or dodge like I explained above. The ledgedash in place gives you some serious room to operate Marth's great hitboxes (dtilt, fair, utilt, nair) to stop any opponents reactively rushing you down at the ledge.

I don't remember ever seeing this, but I also think you could ledgedash in place, WD back on the ledge as they come at you, then punish their approach with a LH attack. As an alternative to ledgedashing on and WDing back off, you can do that DJ onto the stage with a solitary WL back onto the ledge (the thing Falcons love). Again, can any frame gurus give a breakdown of how vulnerable Marth is during this? I know Falcon can do it with full invul, so Marth should at least be close. Marth getting back on the ledge just seems really unexpected. As a Falco, when I see a Marth ledgestand or ledgedash in place, I pounce on him immediately so he's forced to shield or get knocked off stage, and the situation is just really awful for Marth. If that Marth had immediately gotten back on the ledge, I would probably already be committed to an aerial or laser, and then Marth could easily LH a uair with refreshed invul and completely turn the table. If attacking is too risky, he could still abuse the fact that the opponent is now out of position to cover a full-length ledgedash and ledgedash, dash right past him.

Mixing all of these options into Marth's ledge game could make life a lot easier in terms of getting off the ledge. Marth definitely has the tools to make the ledge work for him, and Mew2King has proved as much over the years. He has a great regrab distance and speed, good range with his LH attacks, and good distance on his ledgedash. Introducing a plethora of mixups involving ledge drop regrabs (high vs. low DJ fakeouts), ledgedashes, LH attacks (with the occasional counter), and LH WL regrabs should result in a much more potent ledge game than most Marth's currently have.

 

[knightpraetor]

it's posts like this that make me depressed. how did you get so good with falco and then say stuff like this....i swear you make posts like this just to try to get a rise out of me...it's like blatantly saying "haha i play falco so i can get on stage with lasers or invuln ledgedash mixups and don't have to worry about getting pressured when getting on or even bother knowing what works and doesn't"

 

[BTmoney]

I don't remember ever seeing this, but I also think you could ledgedash in place, WD back on the ledge as they come at you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqsmYNDwrCg

crimson does it all the time, or basically what you are talking about but smoother and falcon-esque. First 16 seconds. More at like the 41 second mark

 

[Bones0]

it's posts like this that make me depressed. how did you get so good with falco and then say stuff like this....i swear you make posts like this just to try to get a rise out of me...it's like blatantly saying "haha i play falco so i can get on stage with lasers or invuln ledgedash mixups and don't have to worry about getting pressured when getting on or even bother knowing what works and doesn't"

lol My bad, I guess... Though tbh, lasers don't work anymore if they're close enough to the ledge to hit you. I just mix up ledgedash, WL on side plats, and side-B with invul every time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqsmYNDwrCg

crimson does it all the time, or basically what you are talking about but smoother and falcon-esque. First 16 seconds. More at like the 41 second mark

TCB embodies what it means to be a blur of crimson. Holy crap at that movement. But yeah, that's what I was talking about. No one ever does that to me to fake a ledgedash.

 

[Kadano]

Can any frame gurus confirm if it's even faster than a ledgestand? I can't imagine it's slower, but idk how much more invul you lose doing the airdodge straight down as opposed to the diagonal airdodge.
[…] As an alternative to ledgedashing on and WDing back off, you can do that DJ onto the stage with a solitary WL back onto the ledge (the thing Falcons love). Again, can any frame gurus give a breakdown of how vulnerable Marth is during this?

• Ledgestand (»CLIFFCLIMBQUICK«): takes 32 frames, invulnerable 1-30
• 197°-253°¹ airdodge: Can be done as soon as on the 14th ledgehop frame (assuming frame perfection on ledgedrop and midair jump). Waveland takes 10 frames so total duration is 1+14+10=25 frames. Invulnerable 1-29.
• 270° airdodge (straight down): Can be done as soon as on the 15th ledgehop frame (assuming frame perfection on ledgedrop and midair jump). Waveland takes 10 frames so total duration is 1+15+10=26 frames. Invulnerable 1-29.
• 287°-295° airdodge (back off the stage): Can be done as soon as on the 15th ledgehop frame (assuming frame perfection on ledgedrop and midair jump). Waveland takes 1 frame, first frame of fall you can’t do anything so total duration is 1+15+1+1=18 frames. Invulnerable 1-29. Marth can stay invincible until he grabs the ledge only if he fastfalls, but he must do this on the 4th to 9th frame of his fall. Doing it on the 1st or 2nd frame will prevent him from grabbing the ledge at all.

The 1 frame timing difference between option 2 and 3 is not without consequence. If you do a 197°-210° airdodge on the 15th ledgehop frame, you stay airborne for 1 frame longer, leaving you with only 2 invincibility frames.
¹All angles are based on the right ledge.

I don't remember ever seeing this, but I also think you could ledgedash in place, WD back on the ledge as they come at you, then punish their approach with a LH attack.

I strongly disencourage doing this as Marth loses his invincibility for at least 3 frames at a really bad spot. Wavelanding back off the stage is much safer and I don’t see any disadvantages.

Edit: Crimson Blur’s backwards ledgedashes look very slick. I wondered whether he was invincible all the time so I counted the frames. Turned out one iteration took him 22 30-Hz frames, so he was vulnerable for approximately 7 frames every time before he grabbed the ledge.
Here is an animation of frame perfect ledgedashstalls:

Ingame, this animation should be 20% faster. (GIF seems to use centisecond increments, so I had to go for 20 ms delay instead of 16.67)
Edit2: Alright, GIMP features millisecond increments. This should have a more accurate speed:

 

[Bones0]

I strongly disencourage doing this as Marth loses his invincibility for at least 3 frames at a really bad spot. Wavelanding back off the stage is much safer and I don’t see any disadvantages.

Thanks for the info. I agree reverse ledgedashing is probably better most of the time, but if they are playing really far in, you can always ledgedash in place and then react to what they do. If they fell for the feint, you are free to move forward from the ground. If they reacted fast enough, you can introduce the usual mixups after ledgedashes (hold shield or roll).

 

[BTmoney]

TCB embodies what it means to be a blur of crimson. Holy crap at that movement. But yeah, that's what I was talking about. No one ever does that to me to fake a ledgedash.

From the few videos I've watched, the dude moves like Hax lol.