Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[knightpraetor]

sorry i should be nicer bones but it's just that you treat me as if i haven't been playing at all and don't know basic things that a person learns playing marth really quickly. just cause you beat me in tourney yesterday doesn't mean you have to treat me like I have been playing less than a month. Was i that free?

and honestly wavedash down into reactive roll is better than wd on and wd back to the ledge. If they are trying to bait out your roll, then you should probably actually attack rather than go to back to the ledge and reinitiate the whole process. if wd back to the ledge actually gets you a punish on the fox/falco, then they are bad..they could just queue a roll back or dashdance after their whiffed aerial

The reality is that Marth needs to invuln ledgedash to have any decent mixups at the ledge. Fox and falcos all should know this, and the good ones play in such a way where any option except a good invuln ledgedash will get hard punished..while still being able to kill the marth if he tournament winners, which you were so kind as do to me 3-4 times yesterday. Marth requires invuln ledgedash to be competitive and thus often ends up dying from tournament winners in tourney. That's life, and that's also one of the reasons I like playing peach

do you have any idea how satisfied I was every time you SDed ledge dashing yesterday? that I typically get 2 free stocks for that vs Wenbo from that in every set we play? Even Mango complained about it. with peach it's a simple matter to cover your waveland and aerial and punish everything except invuln ledgedash from fox.

falco has lasers so he still has it a million times better than fox, but even when you were playing falco yesterday I got 2 kills from jumping and setting float height at weird heights so that laser on didn't work.

The worst part is that marth's invuln ledgedash seems to be harder than foxes or falcos. Maybe someone can tell me why this is, but with fox and falco I seem to be able to slam the stick down and still jump and waveland on with enough invuln. But with marth it seems that unless i just tap down really lightly and not fastfall, then I completely lose all invuln. I assume that this is just easier for spacies because they have more frames of invuln that they can waste making the ledgedash simpler for them.

anyway this is all just gloom and doom...on a brighter note...marth benefits from shai dropping a lot. I can now do it on command because yesterday i discovered I had an R button on my controller. Not sure where it came from, but it sure is convenient

also, bones how long can you keep invuln during a phantasm from the ledge? does it stay invuln till you start moving horizontally?

 

[Bones0]

sorry i should be nicer bones but it's just that you treat me as if i haven't been playing at all and don't know basic things that a person learns playing marth really quickly. just cause you beat me in tourney yesterday doesn't mean you have to treat me like I have been playing less than a month. Was i that free?

also, bones how long can you keep invuln during a phantasm from the ledge? does it stay invuln till you start moving horizontally?

Sorry if I came of condescending. I wasn't even talking specifically to you. I just felt like mentioning that you didn't really do any of the ledgedash mixups that I think are good, and then I just started ranting because that's how I learn on SmashBoards. lol

Idk for sure about the invul on LH Phantasm, but I'm pretty sure I am invul at least until I start moving. I honestly don't remember ever getting hit out of the beginning of one when I'm mentally prepared to do it asap.

 

[knightpraetor]

all I did during our set with marth was tournament winner 3 times and then ledgedash..i got on successfully 2/3 times and got back center stage.. The bigger problem was you actually comboed me into a low percent kill twice in our set. Once on yoshi's where i should have DIed better..and the other was a really solid combo that I couldn't do much about. After I tournament winner'd and died i just started short hopping on while trying to cover myself with aerials and just accepting positional disadvantage..it's part of life.

you had a really interesting combo 3rd stock on FD. wish we had recorded.. next time

 

[Kadano]

The worst part is that marth's invuln ledgedash seems to be harder than foxes or falcos. Maybe someone can tell me why this is, but with fox and falco I seem to be able to slam the stick down and still jump and waveland on with enough invuln. But with marth it seems that unless i just tap down really lightly and not fastfall, then I completely lose all invuln. I assume that this is just easier for spacies because they have more frames of invuln that they can waste making the ledgedash simpler for them.

It feels silly to write this as it’s so obvious. From grabbing the ledge, they get exactly as many invincibility frames as Marth. Their second jumps just have a higher vertical acceleration (so it takes them less time to get above the stage) and total elevation (this leaves room for latency on the jump so fastfalling for a few frames doesn’t make too much of a difference).

also, bones how long can you keep invuln during a phantasm from the ledge? does it stay invuln till you start moving horizontally?

Both Falco and Fox stay invincible until they slow down.

 

[knightpraetor]

yeah, I guess what I was wondering is whether they can get away with fastfalling and still wavedash invuln. It feels like they have at least a 3 frame window to wavedash and still have some invuln

 

[Xyzz]

Regarding phantasm: I'm super sure I've hit them somewhere at the end of that thing going straight through their hitbox before that. Might be me being bad and misinterpreting that weird backwards hitbox / hurtbox stuff going on with it, but the frame data seems to be supportive

 

[Kadano]

Fox can fastfall for 6 frames and still have 2 free inv frames.

 

[Dr Peepee]

To make sure I understand,

From the edge, Marth can let go and then waveland back to the edge and be invulnerable for all of it? Or is the fastest you can do that still leaving you with 15 vulnerable frames?

 

[Kadano]

From the edge, Marth can let go and then waveland back to the edge and be invulnerable for all of it?

Exactly. Here is how this looks like in case someone missed my last edit:

At no point of this ledgestall is Marth vulnerable. I think it’s a good idea to practice this.
Frame list from the moment you grab the ledge (this is what I did in the gif):
1-8 you can’t do anything.
9 press down or away. To get the timing right, I recommend reacting to the ledgegrab animation or sound effect as 8 frames are pretty much exactly as long as good human reaction times.
10 jump and hold towards the stage.
11-24 hold towards the stage.
25 waveland backwards with ~290° (SSE if you think of the control stick as a compass)
30-35: Fastfall on any of these frames.

The hardest part is probably getting the correct angle on frame 25. If you prefer doing a 315° angle (SE), you can use a slightly different input succession that also has full invincibility:
1-8 you can’t do anything.
9 press down. To get the timing right, I recommend reacting to the ledgegrab animation or sound effect as 8 frames are pretty much exactly as long as good human reaction times.
10 hold down.
11 jump and hold towards the stage.
12-27 hold towards the stage.
28 waveland backwards with exactly 315° (SE, easy to do because of the octagon carving)
31-34: Fastfall on any of these frames.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

On the same frame a player gets hit by an attack, but grabs the opposing person on the same frame. The person grabbing takes no damage, or knockback. They simply grab the other character.

I wonder if anyone will be ballsy enough to abuse that and try timing/spacing the perfect grabs to grab people out of ridiculous things. No fear of retaliation.

 

[ShroudedOne]

"and that's also one of the reasons I like playing peach"

How does this solve your "getting off the terrible ledge" issues?

 

[Dr Peepee]

How much leeway is in the technique frame-wise?

I'd figure there is at least one frame due to the difference in your ending descriptions.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

How does this solve your "getting off the terrible ledge" issues?

Your opponent will come by and grab the ledge from you. Thus, you get off the ledge. Its a rather successful notion.

 

[Kadano]

How much leeway is in the technique frame-wise?
I'd figure there is at least one frame due to the difference in your ending descriptions.

You can delay the jump for 4 frames if you don’t fastfall before the jump. Doing so requires you to fastfall earlier after wavelanding. The fastfall timing windows overlap at two frames, 5 and 6 after wavelanding.
You must let go of the ledge on the first possible frame, though—else you are vulnerable at the end for at least as many frames as you delayed it.

It probably sounds strange that you can fall for 4 frames but can’t keep hanging for a single frame. This is because of the stage collision detection quadrilateral which changes its size very unpredictably. It is also one of the causes Marth’s ledgedash is rather bad as it increases its downward reach just before Marth would have gotten above the stage and thus delays this important moment.

 

[knightpraetor]

"and that's also one of the reasons I like playing peach"

How does this solve your "getting off the terrible ledge" issues?

you're right of course. getting on as peach still stinks.....i get hit 20 times and DI up and airdodge/nair randomly till i get on stage...but they screw up their ledgedash once and it all evens out^_^

edit: 20 times was obviously an exaggeration. In before someone asks me why I'm such a noob to take 20 tries to get back on stage

 

[FrootLoop]

she should never really get back

 

[knightpraetor]

at least with marth, you can't cover all of her options every time without giving her a chance to gain height

 

[FrootLoop]

it shouldn't matter if she gains height, it just means marth has to wait longer between reps

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

U mirin' my aesthetics bros?

 

[CyberZixx]

this is super noob question. why hy exaxtly move like that? i assume it is to make you unpredictible and a harder target to hit. i just feel like i am mising vital conecting info.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Thanks Kadano!

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

• Ledgestand (»CLIFFCLIMBQUICK«): takes 32 frames, invulnerable 1-30
• 197°-253°¹ airdodge: Can be done as soon as on the 14th ledgehop frame (assuming frame perfection on ledgedrop and midair jump). Waveland takes 10 frames so total duration is 1+14+10=25 frames. Invulnerable 1-29.
• 270° airdodge (straight down): Can be done as soon as on the 15th ledgehop frame (assuming frame perfection on ledgedrop and midair jump). Waveland takes 10 frames so total duration is 1+15+10=26 frames. Invulnerable 1-29.
• 287°-295° airdodge (back off the stage): Can be done as soon as on the 15th ledgehop frame (assuming frame perfection on ledgedrop and midair jump). Waveland takes 1 frame, first frame of fall you can’t do anything so total duration is 1+15+1+1=18 frames. Invulnerable 1-29. Marth can stay invincible until he grabs the ledge only if he fastfalls, but he must do this on the 4th to 9th frame of his fall. Doing it on the 1st or 2nd frame will prevent him from grabbing the ledge at all.

The 1 frame timing difference between option 2 and 3 is not without consequence. If you do a 197°-210° airdodge on the 15th ledgehop frame, you stay airborne for 1 frame longer, leaving you with only 2 invincibility frames.
¹All angles are based on the right ledge.


I strongly disencourage doing this as Marth loses his invincibility for at least 3 frames at a really bad spot. Wavelanding back off the stage is much safer and I don’t see any disadvantages.

Edit: Crimson Blur’s backwards ledgedashes look very slick. I wondered whether he was invincible all the time so I counted the frames. Turned out one iteration took him 22 30-Hz frames, so he was vulnerable for approximately 15 frames every time before he grabbed the ledge.
Here is an animation of frame perfect ledgedashstalls:

Ingame, this animation should be 20% faster. (GIF seems to use centisecond increments, so I had to go for 20 ms delay instead of 16.67)
Edit2: Alright, GIMP features millisecond increments. This should have a more accurate speed:

Good post!

 

[Divinokage]

I really like Kadano's post, need lots more of those for learning techs.

 

[FrootLoop]

I don't really think it matters if it's invincible or not since they're gonna be spaced outside ledgehop aerial range anyway

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Marth can get on stage invincible completely. That's the useful info I get out of this.

 

[Kadano]

I really like Kadano's post, need lots more of those for learning techs.

I’m glad you do. If you have anything specific in mind, just tell me.
By the way, Ganon also has this ledgestall and he has more tolerance frames than Marth. While testing I noticed his SCDQ¹ stays very small for a long time, making the window for a “perfect” (180°/0°) waveland very large. Is there already extensive knowledge on this? If not, I’d like to write about it, but I don’t want to risk making an effort only to be informed Magus420 has already explained this much better, haha.

Marth can get on stage invincible completely. That's the useful info I get out of this.

That has been known for a long time, the important news is that Marth has a ledgestall that visually resembles his stage arrival options a lot and thus serves as a valid counter against the denial tactics that are so prevalent in many matchups and usually make Marth on the ledge take a lot of % until he gets on stage again or downright lose a stock. It probably takes months of practice until this benefit outweighs the high risk of making a technical mistake and losing a stock, but in any case it’s good to know what’s possible.



¹Stage Collision Detection Quadrilateral; if someone knows a better term for this, please tell me.

 

[Bones0]

Collision Diamond (CD).

 

[Kadano]

Except it’s not necessarily a diamond:

The most precise term for the geometric shape would be »orthodiagonal quadrilateral«, but that’s even longer.

Edit @Anand (didn’t feel this was important enough to write another post): It’s not a kite either, in the picture above the upper two lines are longer than the lower two,

 

[Anand]

You can call it a "kite" (http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Kite.html), assuming one of the diagonals is also a line of symmetry.

 

[Xyzz]

I like how geometry and the likes tend to be one of the main points of discussion on smashboards <3

 

[Divinokage]

Ah ya the Ganon boards have pretty much the framedata covered. =)

 

[BTmoney]

Someone mind spelling out what exactly goes into a frame/length perfect WD?

Would you have to airdodge on the first frame possible while air dodging horizontally?

 

[Kadano]

Someone mind spelling out what exactly goes into a frame/length perfect WD?

Would you have to airdodge on the first frame possible while air dodging horizontally?

No, Marth can’t do 180° wavedashes. He needs to do 197° airdodges to achieve maximum length. He can, however, do 180° wavelands in some cases, for example after doing a reverse ledgedash and airdodging on the second airborne frame. Again, this is caused by SCDQ shape shifting.

 

[Bones0]

No, Marth can’t do 180° wavedashes. He needs to do 197° airdodges to achieve maximum length. He can, however, do 180° wavelands in some cases, for example after doing a reverse ledgedash and airdodging on the second airborne frame. Again, this is caused by SCDQ shape shifting.

Do you know exactly what causes the SCQ to change, or how it is changed by certain movements? I know I asked you before about Falco's ledgedash becoming easier depending on how you grab the ledge, and you seem to be talking about something similar in the above quote. Were you saying Marth can airdodge sooner and at a horizontal angle for ledgedashes after first performing a reverse ledgedash? If so, that is a huge deal.

 

[Kadano]

Do you know exactly what causes the SCQ to change, or how it is changed by certain movements? I know I asked you before about Falco's ledgedash becoming easier depending on how you grab the ledge, and you seem to be talking about something similar in the above quote. Were you saying Marth can airdodge sooner and at a horizontal angle for ledgedashes after first performing a reverse ledgedash? If so, that is a huge deal.

I don’t understand it completely, but I believe that its shape is only changed at specific animation frames in one or more dimensions. Sorry if I forgot to answer you on Falco’s ledgedash, I can confirm that what this Japanese smasher found out is true.
No, that was not was I was saying. Marth can indeed alter his SCDQ by doing different things¹ before grabbing the ledge, but because of his second jump’s slow vertical speed, it refreshes to a larger size² before he gets above the stage so all differences even out.
I was talking about wavelanding within the same iteration, right after falling off the stage from the waveland. To do this, you need to press L/R twice within 3 frames so this is next to humanly impossible. I only found it worth mentioning because it’s a situation in which Marth can do a 180° waveland.

¹Only action I found so far is sweetspot up-B
²10th frame of his rejump, without this refresh, Marth could ledgedash 2-3 frames sooner and have as many more frames invincibility.

 

[airok]

if you don't fastfall to grab the ledge(kadano's post) how much frames would marth be vulnerable?

 

[Bones0]

I don’t understand it completely, but I believe that it’s shape is only changed at specific animation frames in one or more dimensions. Sorry if I forgot to answer you on Falco’s ledgedash, I can confirm that what this Japanese smasher found out is true.
No, that was not was I was saying. Marth can indeed alter his SCDQ by doing different things¹ before grabbing the ledge, but because of his second jump’s slow vertical speed, it refreshes to a larger size² before he gets above the stage so all differences even out.
I was talking about wavelanding within the same iteration, right after falling off the stage from the waveland. To do this, you need to press L/R twice within 3 frames so this next to humanly impossible. I only found it worth mentioning because it’s a situation in which Marth can do a 180° waveland.

¹Only action I found so far is sweetspot up-B
²10th frame of his rejump, without this refresh, Marth could ledgedash 2-3 frames sooner and have as many more frames invincibility.

So Falco can ledgedash sooner from a DJ than from an up-B or side-B? This game is so broken...

Pressing L/R twice within 3 frames sounds easy as long as you use both triggers. Are you saying I can reverse ledgedash and WL onto the stage before grabbing the ledge? Like... what?

THIS GAME IS SO BROKEN.

 

[knightpraetor]

curioser and curioser

and stay away you damn grammar nazis

but yeah bones. we both know how we are spending our next week.

 

[Kadano]

Are you saying I can reverse ledgedash and WL onto the stage before grabbing the ledge?

Yes. Marth still has one frame of free invincibility that way.

 

[Xyzz]

If this wasn't the melee community we're talking about, I'd say "nobody is ever going to do that" :D