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Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

Bones0

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AC nair with earliest possible fastfall can be done on either the first, second or third frame after leaving the ground. I’ve settled for second here, but it works on the other two just as well, sadly.
I didn’t include hitlag frames. Made with Beneton Movie GIF and Faststone.

Edit: If Marth fades back his AC nair as far as possible while still not doing a backward (“JUMPB”) sh, he can still be hit by Rest. Only by doing a jumpb is his AC nair Rest-safe.
No Puff player is going to attempt to run almost frame perfectly under an AC nair...
 

Xyzz

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Sneaking under with an fsmash should be fairly easy to do on reaction though, shouldn't it?

If I however ever see a puff player just running up under the nair and resting, I'm willing to throw all the confetti I had in store for other celebrate-worthy events :D (Not that I liked Puff or anything, but that'd be just sooo cool)
 

Bones0

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If you assume they will AC nair and just fsmash when they jump you could probably hit them, but that goes for anyone really, not just Puff. That's kinda why you can't just spam nairs in neutral. If the Puff is going to try to deal with it in any way, they'll probably WD under it because she stays crouched almost the entire time during her WD (maybe the whole time because of jumpsquat, but idk).
 
D

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No Puff player is going to attempt to run almost frame perfectly under an AC nair...
that's because there are no marths that are blatantly bad enough to be willing to try autocancel nair vs jigglypuff.

edit: i watched PPU vs hbox. even though his nair use is way above average, it does him more harm than good.

PPU if you want to talk about this more we can. i think it'll make a notable improvement to your game play.
 

knightpraetor

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am I the only one who finds that gif strange because it has a marth jumping and AC nairing at the incorrect spacing ...not sure what it is supposed to represent..no marth in the world could be bad enough or slow enough to actually try to ac nair at that spacing without moving backwards...the jump timing was off, so the whole gif doesn't make sense
 

Tarv

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CrimsonBlur actually described my initial thoughts on Nair much more eloquently than I could have. I was using it as more of a "stay back, fiend!" kind of thing. I feel like some of you are being unfairly harsh against poor poor nair. It might not be all that great in the puff MU as I thought but I don't think the move is THAT horrible. I mean the second hit of it does have pretty significant knockback at higher percents; which seems like it would be good (I meant this just in general, not really directed towards the Puff MU discussion.) Just saying...

Also, yeah that gif is helpful for seeing how open nair leaves you but kind of misleading. Terrible time to Nair, no spacing, just whiffing the puff completely etc. etc. So really it's showing how open nairs leaves you if you're really bad at timing/spacing

Thanks again for the info drops everyone.
 

Druggedfox

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Nair's not the worst thing ever, sure, but that's just because marth is so good that even his worse options are strong. It is still rarely the best option he has available, which is the main thing that's getting pointed out.
 

Kadano

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All I wanted to illustrate with that gif was that AC nair leaves Marth more vulnerable than it may seem. Of course Puff’s chances of getting this in are nonexistant unless the Marth player thinks nair beats a running Puff or just blatantly spams it.

am I the only one who finds that gif strange because it has a marth jumping and AC nairing at the incorrect spacing ...not sure what it is supposed to represent..no marth in the world could be bad enough or slow enough to actually try to ac nair at that spacing without moving backwards...the jump timing was off, so the whole gif doesn't make sense
Here is another one that shows, as I have written before, that fading back alone doesn’t make a difference. Marth would have to not fastfall or use a backwards sh to be out of Puff’s range.
4,6 MB
Again, I’m not saying this is something that is to happen much if at all. It surprised me that this is, under very strict circumstances, possible and that’s why I’m sharing it here.

1. can marth ledge dash with any amount of invincibility? I kinda of want to know exactly where he can be positionally and still have invincibility (i.e. how high in the air or how long into his WD)
Good question. A perfect ledgedash leaves Marth 4 free frames of invincibility he can use however he wants to. He can safely shield, spotdodge and roll. The only hitbox he can bring out in time is jab.

(how exactly do you do what you're doing, by that I mean this framework and those skins, I want to get into doing AR stuff)

I use Dolphin with a 1.0 Melee iso that has PAL characters and several DOL hacks, most importantly “replace tournament with debug mode”. To enable debug functions, you need to set DBLEVEL to DEVELOP. R+↑ (on D-pad) switches hitbubble display mode. Y+↓ shows animation frame info. R+↓ switches stage display mode.

I make the screenshots with Dolphin, batch cut them with Faststone image viewer and import them with Beneton Movie GIF.

2. any merit to boost grab or whatever people call it with marth? he really freaking lunges. I was messing around with it and it looks good at least
I didn’t do the most elaborate testing, but it seems given you want to run up to your opponent and grab him as soon as possible, boost grab is just as fast as dash grab. JC grab is one frame slower.
 

Bones0

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Good question. A perfect ledgedash leaves Marth 4 free frames of invincibility he can use however he wants to. He can safely shield, spotdodge and roll. The only hitbox he can bring out in time is jab.
He can up-B (invincible frame 5). :D


I didn’t do the most elaborate testing, but it seems given you want to run up to your opponent and grab him as soon as possible, boost grab is just as fast as dash grab. JC grab is one frame slower.
So if you're tech chasing, you should dash grab? O_o
 

Kadano

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Oh, totally forgot about that. Though I doubt ledgedash up-B is ever a good idea, haha.

I don’t think one frame is enough to outweigh the higher ending lag.
 

Medz!

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How many frames of invincibility do spacies get from ledgedashes? I've always wondered.
 

iffy525

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IDK if one frame difference makes it OK to use a much laggier grab, I also thought normal grab has better range (correct me if I'm wrong).
 

Kadano

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13-15 depending on what they did before they grabbed the ledge.
I also thought normal grab has better range (correct me if I'm wrong).
Relative to Marth’s base position, standing grab indeed has more range. But if you’re running, things get more complicated.
 

Druggedfox

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But theres no reason to shine ledgedash lol

Also the extra range on jc grab obviously more than makes up for it being a frame slower
 

Xyzz

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But theres no reason to shine ledgedash lol

Also the extra range on jc grab obviously more than makes up for it being a frame slower
I'm pretty sure Kadano is saying that it's possible to have a grab connecting one frame earlier with a dash grab opposed to a JC grab when running towards an opponent, so probably the dashing grab has a longer reach than the jc one, because that one starts up faster after pressing the button.

Melee is such a dumb game... three types of grabs of varying value in different situations because of super subtle stuff... <3 :D
 

Druggedfox

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Uh I'm not sure what kadano is saying but I mean... there's a reason JC grabbing is the standard as far as i know

More range at the cost of starting up one frame slower

lol clowsui quitting marvel is more because GA sucks at it than anything
 

Kadano

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To Xyzz: Exactly, thanks for pointing this out. Your guess is wrong though, dashgrab connects earlier because its startup retains much more momentum than standing grab’s startup. With JC grab, you need to run up much closer to your opponent before you actually grab.

Uh I'm not sure what kadano is saying but I mean... there's a reason JC grabbing is the standard as far as i know
More range at the cost of starting up one frame slower
No. Standing grab comes out 3 frames earlier. JC grabbing is standard because of its lower ending lag. It also seems the speed difference is so slim that in some cases it’s even below 1 frame.
 

Druggedfox

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EDITED:

Okay I understand what some of the confusion is, and here I'll clarify what I'm saying:

1) I was referring to the jump startup making JC grabs one frame slower than a normal standing grab, but that it outranges dash grab.
2) Yes, JC grabs do have lower ending lag, I'm aware.
3) As I said, they DO outrange dash grabs and that's one of the big reasons they're used
 

knightpraetor

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problem is in the second picture the marth is still jumping too late...and learning jump timing is not difficult. The situation you are talking about will occur zero percent of the time at upper levels. maybe a wd under might work, but i'm still skeptical at the difficulty of jiggs actually doing anything to get under your nair done properly. The biggest dangers to nair are dashing fox if you stupidly try to use it as an approach instead of a zoning tool or if you are facing a fast char that can dashdance around it too easily.


also nair is better against puff than you guys are making it out to be. fair combos better and is strictly better at low percents on puff, but a fair that can be DIed away and have the puff still have stage to land on will always be worse than a nair that sends a puff offstage so that you can pressure with positional advantage, meaning that nair has a very distinct range of percents in which it is strictly better than fair. with fair at those percent ranges if you tipper it you get positional advantage below jiggs, but jiggs aerial mobility is god tier and she has a nair of her own that is perfect for coming down, so horizontal positioning is better in my opinion. getting them with upair and fair strings if they try to cross high is good, but it's not quite as good as all the mixups you have when they are coming back to the ledge.

of course the exception is jiggs players who are bad and DI in the whole time..in which case you could fair all day, but nair tipper fsmash is really easy to learn the spacing for if the jiggs is DIing in, so even then, there are percent ranges where the nair would be preferred.

asking whether nair or fair is better in a given matchup is too naive anyway. Marth always needs to be choosing the right one for the situation
 

clowsui

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so what you're saying is fair is better than nair except in the small range that nair is better than fair

and what i'm saying is that you acknowledged how asinine this whole nair vs fair bull**** is at the end of your post

so why are we talking about this again?

KP i respect you and the fact that you want to discuss things but you should be using your intellectual clout to redirect the conversation into POSITIVE, PRODUCTIVE, directions, not down POINTLESS, INCREDIBLY MARGINAL and downright INSULTINGLY LIMITED paths

let's stop ****ing talking about nair and start talking about actual problems, about things that are clearly applied at the top level but not well-understood on the low level

I'll start

EVERYONE BELOW A-TIER CLASS PLAYERS ****ING SUCK AT DASH DANCING

I'M TALKING ABOUT MARTHS ESPECIALLY

WHY THE **** DO YOU SUCK AT DASH DANCING WHEN ITS IMPROVEMENT OFFERS THE GREATEST GAINS AT EVERY LEVEL



jesus ****ing christ i'm taking a break from this thread for a few weeks

you are all ****ing ********
 

Xyzz

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heh, ninja edits are mean :D

Well, I somewhat agree (though I'd never use that tone ;) ). But on the other hand there's stuff you can easily discuss about, and might yield at least some tiny benefit (like the discussion of when to use nair / fair), and then there's stuff where you can get better at, that will lead to much more drastic improvement, but that's sorta hard to have a decent discussion about. Like "dash dancing better"... What's there really to say about that? It's super obvious that if you fail to avoid your opponents approach attempt with it, or you get hit out of it, that you were doing something wrong, but realizing those things isn't something we can really discuss, is it?
I guess you can tell people that they need to a) learn to react to how their opponent's response to dash dancing, b) be able to move their dash dance freely around the stage by varying the lengths, c) switch up the timings to remain unpredictable... But I couldn't think of much more than those super basic things.

But ya, improving ones movement / spacing in relation to the opponents actions is imho one of the areas which leads to the biggest "skill-growth", and dash dancing is a fundamental part of that.
 

CyberZixx

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My dashdance game is awful. I don't have a solid handle on that mechanic at all. I rarely get a sense when It would benefit me. When I do it correct I don't really see why it worked.
 

Dr Peepee

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Can you elaborate on Marth's punishment game? Aside from the occasional f-air string and protracted damage-building edgeguard I have trouble hurting Puff very much once I get a hit in.
1. Nair. Meh neutral move, wonderful combo move. Double hits for a lot of damage, low lag so you can follow it up, and it doesn't send Puff very far away(good angle.) Use this from a grab or any hit if you can. Landing this in neutral can lead to bigger reward but this is one of those things that should only come if you're SURE you've got them.

2. Grabs. Yeah there's that Dthrow CG stuff but there's also Nair out of either throw into Fairs/Uairs and that is the nice part of it. From many good throws at low percent you could regrab once or twice then Nair to Fair +/- Uair and that is very hefty damage. And that's without the nice juggles you get afterward(Fair and Uair will both send the Jigglypuff up at worst and offstage at best so lol.)

3. Dair. I forget how I used to set this up, but it sure was nice hitting Puff back into the ground because her ground options(including techs) suck. Plus Dair is pretty strong so that's nice.


Sorry this took so long to respond to but I've been busy.


Edit: stfu druggedfox
 

Upke

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When I first tried it, I ****ed it up royally. It always seems a little bit faster even if you adjust a couple times already. Just watch M2K do it and try to feel the rhythm. If it's not spot on, you'll light shield like a nerd.
 

Dr Peepee

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lol so you probably don't know some rules.

learn the grab rhythm on CPUs at low percents as suggested above, and practice CG'ing to ~21%. That's a good place to start.
 

CyberZixx

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I am bad at chaingrabbing too. I know it depends on % and DI a lot. There should be a guide out there somewhere. If you are missing a grab you not be grabbing fast enough at low percents or at highter ones need to JC grab.
 

CyberZixx

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Do you just want to learn to chaingrab spacies for a counter pick? I believe Pikachu can totally do it.
 
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