Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[clowsui]

Reverse DS OOS brawl style actually works pretty well for janky timing based setups on your shield.

 

[AustinRC]

I feel like I should probably learn more dolphin slash combo enders. It's a great move and if you hit with the strong part it's like a smash in the air as well. Any TIPS Tai? If only it had invincibility *le sigh*

 

[Tee ay eye]

invincibility doesn't matter if you know you're going to connect LOOOOLLLL

 

[Beat!]

I feel like I should probably learn more dolphin slash combo enders. It's a great move and if you hit with the strong part it's like a smash in the air as well. Any TIPS Tai? If only it had invincibility *le sigh*

Most Ken combos can be finished with up-B instead of dair.

So yeah, fair-->up-B.

//PAL player

 

[AustinRC]

Huh interesting thanks Beat!

@ Tai - Well I mean for Marth to have a viable OOS attack. Like how it's used in Brawl you know?

 

[clowsui]

ARC try what I said sometime

 

[AustinRC]

@ clowsui - I am now going to dedacate my life to reverse up b OOS.

 

[clowsui]

Sweet!

Now there's only one problem:

what to do if you miss...

 

[AustinRC]

Oh that's easy. Pivot counter. DUH!

EDIT:

Okay so does Marth have one frame of invulnerability on his dolphin slash? Am I reading this right?!

 

[Mahie]

Reverse upB is actually really good against spacies dash attacks, assuming they ever do that on your shield ever, but I'm sure you've all been in that situation where you try to grab it and it doesn't work because you grabbed too early and they were in your back with the dash attack or something, upBing forward actually punishes that.

Waiting and grabbing as well, admittedly.

Also, Fthrow into techchase upB is a decent set up and I love using it. Much easier to land than the techchasing fsmash when you actually want a kill move off the techchase.

 

[Tee ay eye]

situations where i like to use up B:
-hard read into hard punish. pretty much if i'm so comfortable with my opponent that i feel like i can take a huge risk and have it pay off. my friend's sheik gets hit by my marth's up B out of techchases alllll the time (so in other words, if i get knocked down, i'll stand up and then mash up B like it's a shoryuken)
-after landing a dair to pop-them up (pretty much like stomp -> knee)
-punishing non-techs since it's a pretty neat OTG punish

 

[Bones0]

I like to up-B people as they dash away and laugh at their horrible DI.

People should also use it to edgeguard spacies' up-B. It's so much easier than doing all that other fair/side-B BS.


Check out my Marth combo vid, guys.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Oh that's easy. Pivot counter. DUH!

EDIT:

Okay so does Marth have one frame of invulnerability on his dolphin slash? Am I reading this right?!

Yeah, you're reading that correctly. Comes out on frame 5 but that frame is invincible.

Btw, can anybody research to see how low reverse dolphin slash would work as an edge guard? I know it has a fairly low start point so I'm guessing you can really **** some sweet spots with it if you time it right (WARNING: For lulz only)

 

[Tee ay eye]

ssbc looks like it might be better than brawl LOL

 

[MasterShake]

I've been trying to upB after I whiff a useless aerial because that's when people dash in to punish marth.

Not on FD unless my balls are really deep.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

I've been trying to upB after I whiff a useless aerial because that's when people dash in to punish marth.

Not on FD unless my balls are really deep.

Ledge hop nair up b is the business. And for that matter, so is ledge hop delayed up b. That jank saves me more times.....

 

[Bones0]

lol @ Marths who still use LH nair.

 

[Mahie]

I think it's quite good against spacies' sideB, Bones. What is the issue with it?

 

[Bones0]

Yeah, as an edgeguard it's definitely good. It's so bad when they're on stage though because they can just ASDI the first hit down and shield -> grab/whatever.

 

[Mahie]

I think Chipmunk also meant to say use it as an edgeguard, then quickly jump out and follow up with an upB ?

If that's not what he meant, then it's still definitely something I'm trying out the next time I'm playing lol.

 

[Deleted member]

i still use ledge hop nair. i also know when to use it and why it's bad sometimes.

 

[Mahie]

i still use ledge hop nair. i also know when to use it and why it's bad sometimes.

Well you might want to share the technology, that'd be cool. In Spacies matchups I don't think it's a good idea at all, but maybe I'm missing something.

 

[Cactuar]

Technology.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

I went through a phase where I thought ledgehop nair was -always- bad.

Then I realized what and why people crouch cancel and went back to using it, though more cautiously.

 

[Deleted member]

Well you might want to share the technology, that'd be cool. In Spacies matchups I don't think it's a good idea at all, but maybe I'm missing something.

it beats pre-emptive CC use and characters with awkward dashing mechanics like luigi.

marth getting up from the edge against fox/falco is always a bad prospect, i wouldn't treat it like the go-to example. if your standard for the interaction is a no-win situation, you're not going to get very far in terms of innovation or progress.

 

[Mahie]

I guess you're right.

Btw, I have this set from last tournament ( KFC 2, in Denmark).

It was against my practice partner, although, really late in the bracket, so we kind of played it for fun, but still, any advice is good !

http://en.twitch.tv/smashdenmark/b/334614739

It starts around 10:39:00 (Not 10 minutes, 10 hours ! )

Looking forward to the critique.

 

[Bones0]

it beats pre-emptive CC use and characters with awkward dashing mechanics like luigi.

marth getting up from the edge against fox/falco is always a bad prospect, i wouldn't treat it like the go-to example. if your standard for the interaction is a no-win situation, you're not going to get very far in terms of innovation or progress.

How does it ever beat CC???

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

How does it ever beat CC???

It doesn't and Mow never said it does.

But people aren't always holding down.

And there are times where they can't or are extremely unlikely to ASDI/CC your nair (e.g. during a dash, in midair, etc). Catch them in those situations and ledgehop nair is fantastic.

But no, you shouldn't ledgehop nair a crouching Fox near the edge. Marth has other options that beat that. But hitting Fox before or after he gets in that position is often fruitful.

 

[Bones0]

The only major problems I saw were a few dropped punishes that could have easily been stock, and you have a bad tendency to DJ. As a Falco player, I'm constantly fishing for Marth's DJ because he just has no way of covering himself properly. I would almost never go onto the top plat when you're not actively comboing or spacing for his freefall from above.

- Make sure you're DIing dairs away as much as possible because getting double daired is dumb and should honestly not happen that often.

- You seem to bthrow a lot, but I'm guessing you're messing up dthrows or something.

10:44:00 - Instead of dash attacking, you probably should have grabbed. Not only is it a better setup for combos, but if he had gotten his shield up you'd still get the grab as opposed to dash attacking his shield and taking some stupid dair OoS combo.

10:44:15 - Instead of uairing there, I would have faired because you know he is going to want to DI in. Fairing by the ledge is much more likely to Ken combo because they want to survival DI, and even if he did DI away, you can just stay onstage and cover all his recovery options pretty easily.

10:44:25 - You had him trapped in that tech at 100%+ on YS, so you definitely should have just run cancelled fsmash. You were over there fast enough to cover tech in place, which is the hardest option, and missing the tech or rolling to either side is a guaranteed KO even if you don't tip.

- WTF @ that game 2 finisher. Holy ****! lol

- You often bait spot dodges properly, but don't go in for the grab. If you aren't confident in it, try to bait it and then nair their shield. If they spotdodge you'll usually catch them, and if not you can safely dash away to continue baiting spotdodges and rolls.

10:47:20 - Obviously if Randall wasn't there, grabbing the ledge would have worked fine, but if you take him into consideration, you're often better off staying on stage and just d/ftilting. Alternatively, you could have LH baired onto the stage and then done the dtilt/ftilt.

10:53 - Ewww, don't DJ when Falco's invinc.

- Lightshield a LOT more. I'm guessing you trigger trick for PS, in which case you need to use the other trigger to lightshield.

It doesn't and Mow never said it does.

But people aren't always holding down.

And there are times where they can't or are extremely unlikely to ASDI/CC your nair (e.g. during a dash, in midair, etc). Catch them in those situations and ledgehop nair is fantastic.

But no, you shouldn't ledgehop nair a crouching Fox near the edge. Marth has other options that beat that. But hitting Fox before or after he gets in that position is often fruitful.

Mow said "it beats pre-emptive CC"...

People who know how to play Marths that LH nair are always holding down at the ledge. lol And yeah, sometimes you'll catch them off guard, but I don't think it's worth it since you're risking your stock and LH fair usually gives identical options.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Mow said "it beats pre-emptive CC"...

I'm fairly confident Mow meant "before they get into CC position" when he said "pre-emptive CC." I highly doubt he was recommending LH nairing a crouching Fox by the edge.

LH fair usually gives identical options.

No.

 

[knightpraetor]

"Yeah, as an edgeguard it's definitely good. It's so bad when they're on stage though because they can just ASDI the first hit down and shield -> grab/whatever."

except that you shouldn't be doing the nair rising at all..or doing an aerial on stage if they are so close that that is a problem.

anyway, I have a big question that I'm pretty sure was answered like two years ago, but I didn't pay attention at the time.

Basically my trainee appears to be able to walk off stage on command and do Side b and just keep falling, what causes this again?

I can't seem to get it consistently; I had lots of ideas, maybe if you side b at a certain velocity going downward or side b when you have no momentum going forward. All i know is that I can't do this consistently and don't have this problem, but I can't explain how to avoid it since I don't know what's happening.

I know that if you jump and immediately side B it doesn't work, but there is no jump involved. Just a walk off the edge into side B.

 

[MasterShake]

If you use it once and then don't landfall special.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Mooninite ninja'd me.

I think he's a Sheik main deep down guys.

 

[knightpraetor]

what the heck is a landfall special? I go back on stage between trying again. Is that not enough to refresh it?

 

[MasterShake]

You have to land from the "helpless" state on the stage.

And I'll be a Sheik main when I figure out how to be tight with Sheik.

So never lol.

 

[knightpraetor]

what qualifies as a helpless state? like falling from airdodges and up b?

 

[MasterShake]

Yees.

I hate character limits.

 

[knightpraetor]

that doesn't make sense..cause I wasn't up Bing onto the stage to refresh my side b and my side B wasn't causing me to drop constantly like that.

does up bing to the ledge count?

Is there no other place where you can refresh your side B?

 

[MasterShake]

Idk anything other than that. If you didn't waveland, wavedash or anything...idk. Summon the frame gods mang.

 

[chenjesu]

jesse is there ever a time when i want to do a side-b the opposite way as i'm recovering??

(so i can bair them)